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Post by Naos on May 19, 2020 20:04:53 GMT -5
I guess the one thing that comes to my mind is that since Billboard and Nielsen are owned by the same company, it leaves the opportunity for them to collude with each other. For instance, it leaves the possibility open that Billboard could have very well bought those extra 30,000 copies with 6 credit cards if Nielsen is the one doing the auditing itself. There would be no third party auditing. But hopefully that wasn't the case, and I think their rebuttal article was well stated. What is this conspiracy nonsense? |
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GW
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Post by GW on May 19, 2020 20:13:53 GMT -5
^ What do you mean exactly? I hope it's a good thing. It's a phrase I used loosely, which basically describes when something good goes bad. Most commonly when a crazy plot line kills your favorite TV show. In other words, your conspiracy theorizing is not a good look. It's way out there. Not believable. You're now canceled. haha. Jk. But seriously, do you really think Billboard and Nielsen are shady actors in this game? I mean.... really? All that legacy in favor of some collusion to give a song #1 for a week? For some petty cash or whatever? |
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85la
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Post by 85la on May 19, 2020 20:32:09 GMT -5
Alright calm down people, it was just an idea I threw out there, just a possibility, I don't actually have a strong belief in it (notice my slight edit to my original post). However, it does seem like it would technically be a possibility, and I'm sure Billboard would have rather had SWU at #1 than GOOBA, as (putting all potential chart manipulations getting exposed aside) that song certainly looks a lot less controversial at No. 1, and they did tweet out in support of it.
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GW
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Post by GW on May 19, 2020 20:48:26 GMT -5
Alright calm down people, it was just an idea I threw out there, just a possibility, I don't actually have a strong belief in it (notice my slight edit to my original post). However, it does seem like it would technically be a possibility, and I'm sure Billboard would have rather had SWU at #1 than GOOBA, as (putting all potential chart manipulations getting exposed aside) that song certainly looks a lot less controversial at No. 1, and they did tweet out in support of it. *totally calm* just even throwing it out there as a possibility is a no for me, dawg. tin foil hat type ish. reeeeeeeeeeeeaching. the last part of my post was a question. answer it out loud to the class. |
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felipe
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Post by felipe on May 19, 2020 21:06:07 GMT -5
Is there a limit to how many times a person can stream a song and still count towards Billboard?
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GW
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Post by GW on May 19, 2020 21:10:02 GMT -5
Is there a limit to how many times a person can stream a song and still count towards Billboard? I believe there's something in place that prohibits exaggerated abuse of streaming, yes. But, more importantly, is there a limit to how long one can have an avatar that isn't available on tinypic? Like, can you please fix it? |
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🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾
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Post by 🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾 on May 19, 2020 21:16:35 GMT -5
But, more importantly, is there a limit to how long one can have an avatar that isn't available on tinypic? Like, can you please fix it?  |
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on May 20, 2020 0:58:45 GMT -5
chil
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forg
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Post by forg on May 20, 2020 3:15:48 GMT -5
Happy to see Before You Go in the top 40.
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sirskimask
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Post by sirskimask on May 20, 2020 5:11:56 GMT -5
Why is Before You Go in the Top 40? 🤢🤢🤢 Ladies and gentlemen, it’s official, Lewis Capaldi is no longer a one hit wonder, and his first hit is STILL in the top 20 after a whole year Why, America? |
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Gary
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Post by Gary on May 20, 2020 8:06:06 GMT -5
Is there a limit to how many times a person can stream a song and still count towards Billboard? How many times can you stream a song in a week? In a day - a 4 minute song on repeat is 360 times, in a week that would be about 2500 times Which counts for what? less than 2 units? You accomplish more by downloading it on iTunes twice |
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on May 20, 2020 8:39:50 GMT -5
Is there a limit to how many times a person can stream a song and still count towards Billboard? How many times can you stream a song in a week? In a day - a 4 minute song on repeat is 360 times, in a week that would be about 2500 times Which counts for what? less than 2 units? You accomplish more by downloading it on iTunes twice you're naive to think 360 is the upper limit one person could reach in a day. people can do way more & that's why they check their legitimacy. |
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Gary
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Post by Gary on May 20, 2020 8:53:05 GMT -5
How many times can you stream a song in a week? In a day - a 4 minute song on repeat is 360 times, in a week that would be about 2500 times Which counts for what? less than 2 units? You accomplish more by downloading it on iTunes twice you're naive to think 360 is the upper limit one person could reach in a day. people can do way more & that's why they check their legitimacy. Original question : "How many times can a person stream a song before it doesn't count on Billboard?" I used the example of a 4 minute song on repeat on one computer. Anyway... I'm naïve? Really --- OK then. Even if one single person were to set out on a mission to run up streams for a song, how many units do you think that would accumulate (2 units? 3 units? more?)? Even the hypothetical upper limit is not enough for anyone to notice Regardless - Try it and let me know how it goes |
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Post by tanooki on May 20, 2020 8:55:38 GMT -5
I don't personally think streaming is being botted to that extent, particularly in the US. If that were the case, literally EVERY song is played on loop and/or botted. It varies by song but an average of about 35-45% of YouTube streams don't get counted at all. If a song gets 10 million YouTube views, expect only 6 million to be counted by Billboard. This isn't just for big singles either, this applies to literally every song. I tried to calculate the top 10 points for Hot Rock Songs (which I stopped doing as 1. streaming numbers can get incredibly low and 2. legacy songs are ungodly difficult to track), even those songs would lose YouTube. Particularly the song Popular Monster by Falling In Reverse, which has been in Hot Rock top ten for a while, thanks to YouTube, where it does between 750k-1m streams each week. Even that song lost about 40% of YT streams in the Soundscan numbers (Despite it's good YT numbers it doesn't even chart on Rock Streaming...). I do believe that SoundScan could be tampering with streaming numbers and possibly even letting sales fraud slide. I don't think it's true, but I don't think it's exactly false either. If you're afraid of chart manipulation, streaming isn't being used to gain numbers, it's arbitrarily losing numbers.
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on May 20, 2020 9:03:17 GMT -5
you're naive to think 360 is the upper limit one person could reach in a day. people can do way more & that's why they check their legitimacy. I used the example of a 4 minute song on repeat on one computer. Anyway... I'm naïve? Really --- OK then. Even if one single person were to set out on a mission to run up streams for a song, how many units do you think that would accumulate (2 units? 3 units? more?)? Even the hypothetical upper limit is not enough for anyone to notice Regardless - Try it and let me know how it goes 1. the average hit these days is probably closer to 3 mins 20 secs. 2. for a stream to count, they just need to play a 30 second clip of a song. 3. if one person put their mind to it, they could use multiple devices to do this, and write code to refresh at 31 second intervals. this equals 2,787 streams on 1 device only. I've seen fans use up to 7-8 devices on Twitter. That's 22.3k streams in a day. 156k in a week. obviously this would be an extreme case, but this is why Billboard and Nielsen verify streams and sales. |
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Gary
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Post by Gary on May 20, 2020 9:06:09 GMT -5
I used the example of a 4 minute song on repeat on one computer. Anyway... I'm naïve? Really --- OK then. Even if one single person were to set out on a mission to run up streams for a song, how many units do you think that would accumulate (2 units? 3 units? more?)? Even the hypothetical upper limit is not enough for anyone to notice Regardless - Try it and let me know how it goes 1. the average hit these days is probably closer to 3 mins 20 secs. 2. for a stream to count, they just need to play a 30 second clip of a song. 3. if one person put their mind to it, they could use multiple devices to do this, and write code to refresh at 31 second intervals. this equals 2,787 streams on 1 device only. I've seen fans use up to 7-8 devices on Twitter. That's 22.3k streams in a day. 156k in a week. obviously this would be an extreme case, but this is why Billboard and Nielsen verify streams and sales. Even in your extreme example that is about 75 units. OK you try it, and let me know how it goes. |
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GP
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Post by GP on May 20, 2020 9:07:02 GMT -5
So, Pain 1993 opened with 2.9M on Spotify and is #51 on its second week on Hot 100. yeah Drake's mixtape kinda came and went other than the freestyle and obviously Toosie. The fact that he'll murder the charts in the summer ugh |
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GP
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Post by GP on May 20, 2020 9:14:00 GMT -5
Youtube and their numbers get super weird. Besides playlits and such, I dont think Spotify + AM suffer from bot usage that much.
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on May 20, 2020 9:16:56 GMT -5
I don't personally think streaming is being botted to that extent, particularly in the US. If that were the case, literally EVERY song is played on loop and/or botted. It varies by song but an average of about 35-45% of YouTube streams don't get counted at all. If a song gets 10 million YouTube views, expect only 6 million to be counted by Billboard. This isn't just for big singles either, this applies to literally every song. I tried to calculate the top 10 points for Hot Rock Songs (which I stopped doing as 1. streaming numbers can get incredibly low and 2. legacy songs are ungodly difficult to track), even those songs would lose YouTube. Particularly the song Popular Monster by Falling In Reverse, which has been in Hot Rock top ten for a while, thanks to YouTube, where it does between 750k-1m streams each week. Even that song lost about 40% of YT streams in the Soundscan numbers (Despite it's good YT numbers it doesn't even chart on Rock Streaming...). I do believe that SoundScan could be tampering with streaming numbers and possibly even letting sales fraud slide. I don't think it's true, but I don't think it's exactly false either. If you're afraid of chart manipulation, streaming isn't being used to gain numbers, it's arbitrarily losing numbers. we've discussed it elsewhere before so I'm not going to get into it with you again, but just to put my perspective out here: I don't see any reason why Billboard would go out of their way to tamper data, when they could easily change the formula they themselves arbitrarily put in place. If they don't like streaming, they could easily just lower how much it influences the charts. For a publication like Billboard to co-operate with Scooter Braun to let fraudulent sales carry a song to number one is also highly unlikely in my opinion, because that would instantly cost Billboard its legacy. (Especially for this alleged fraudulent activity to leak through a dude that's in the running but clearly not guaranteed for the #1 spot makes the claims less and less reliable.)
Billboard has explained their process, and I choose to believe that YouTube eliminates some of the streams before reporting their numbers to Billboard. YouTube may have less strict regulations on what counts for a stream than Nielsen, and the discrepancy might be causing lower YouTube numbers for almost all of the songs. YouTube needs to address the issue and be more transparent about what their data includes that Billboard doesn't want. |
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GP
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Post by GP on May 20, 2020 9:24:35 GMT -5
I think the problem is more with Youtube and not Billboard or even Nielsen
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Post by kimberly on May 20, 2020 9:31:15 GMT -5
1. the average hit these days is probably closer to 3 mins 20 secs. 2. for a stream to count, they just need to play a 30 second clip of a song. 3. if one person put their mind to it, they could use multiple devices to do this, and write code to refresh at 31 second intervals. this equals 2,787 streams on 1 device only. I've seen fans use up to 7-8 devices on Twitter. That's 22.3k streams in a day. 156k in a week. obviously this would be an extreme case, but this is why Billboard and Nielsen verify streams and sales. Even in your extreme example that is about 75 units. OK you try it, and let me know how it goes. it's about 63 chart points, equivalent of 315 iTunes downloads. not too bad, if you ask me. but Billboard eliminates excessive streams and purchases, so if you did download 315 copies yourself, it would theoretically count as 0. rule is more uncertain with streams but I'm sure they either heavily reduce or straight up remove outliers that stream the song more than a predetermined number of times per week. I'm not an obsessed stan and don't care about where my faves land on the charts enough to do any of this. that's crazy person behavior. I will legally download a song if I really want to support the artist/song and stream it a couple times a day on Apple. that's the extent of my commitment. |
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strongerq
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Post by strongerq on May 20, 2020 9:48:56 GMT -5
I used the example of a 4 minute song on repeat on one computer. Anyway... I'm naïve? Really --- OK then. Even if one single person were to set out on a mission to run up streams for a song, how many units do you think that would accumulate (2 units? 3 units? more?)? Even the hypothetical upper limit is not enough for anyone to notice Regardless - Try it and let me know how it goes 1. the average hit these days is probably closer to 3 mins 20 secs. 2. for a stream to count, they just need to play a 30 second clip of a song. 3. if one person put their mind to it, they could use multiple devices to do this, and write code to refresh at 31 second intervals. this equals 2,787 streams on 1 device only. I've seen fans use up to 7-8 devices on Twitter. That's 22.3k streams in a day. 156k in a week. obviously this would be an extreme case, but this is why Billboard and Nielsen verify streams and sales. OK this is wrong! Comments from different users {Example an user used TOR with a different IP address every time}One of the answers suggested using TOR for this purpose! .. I was so excited to write a program that automates the views of a given YouTube Video.
I created a program that uses TOR service to watch the video via TOR Proxy.. and it does the following:
It starts TOR Service and get a new fresh IP address.
Then it watches the YouTube video for a random time (between 30 - 60 seconds) .
Restarts TOR Service to get a new different IP address.
Keep repeating the above 3 steps for X number of times!
The result is: YouTube AI Algorithm counts the views up to 177 and then stops after.
Why?
Simply because TOR Exit Relays/Nodes are published on public and YouTube Algorithm can EASILY check if the one who is playing the video is using TOR or not!
So as a result, when a continuous TOR IPs watch the video (even for enough time), the YouTube Video is busted! Article about how YouTube counts views{from the article}If you are a frequent YouTube user, you have already probably noticed that once a video reaches about 300 plays, the counter freezes and no new views are counted. That is because after that quantity, view stats are under a YouTube verification process that could take half a day or more. It is an automatic preventive process to prevent people from artificially trying to increase the number of views by watching the same video several times. {another comment}YouTube doesn’t provide a clear definition of what counts as a view, but we know that someone clicking on your video and clicking away right away doesn’t count. That’s how we know that watch time is a factor. Some studies conclude that a full 30 seconds need to be viewed to register as one view, but there is no way to know for sure.
We are adding ‘likely’ here because despite this 30 second rule which has been decoded, there are other factors which might contribute to whether a view is counted as well as other automated scanning techniques at play.
Try to watch the same video numerous times in a single day. You will find that the count will add up at first, but after some time it will stop. YouTube knows that a lot of times people replay some videos over and over when they really enjoy them, and so they want to factor replays into their algorithm because they suggest quality. However, to avoid spam views, the counter will stop after a certain point. tl;dr YouTube algorithm doesnt allow for "botting". Spotify and AM have even better algorithms for dettecting spam viewing that YouTube. |
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on May 20, 2020 10:01:52 GMT -5
1. the average hit these days is probably closer to 3 mins 20 secs. 2. for a stream to count, they just need to play a 30 second clip of a song. 3. if one person put their mind to it, they could use multiple devices to do this, and write code to refresh at 31 second intervals. this equals 2,787 streams on 1 device only. I've seen fans use up to 7-8 devices on Twitter. That's 22.3k streams in a day. 156k in a week. obviously this would be an extreme case, but this is why Billboard and Nielsen verify streams and sales. OK this is wrong! Comments from different users I don't understand what you're responding to. Gary said a person can only stream a song 360 times a day and I was trying to show that if there were no rules, one person could add 150k streams with a bot. No credible streaming platform would allow bots, duh! Facebook on the other hand, if only they were in music streaming :kii: they sure know how to inflate video views. |
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Gary
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Post by Gary on May 20, 2020 10:12:41 GMT -5
"only 360 times" sounds kind of humorous. Based on a 4 minute song, you said 3:20 ---- OK fine. You said 30 seconds is all you need --- ok fine.
What is the highest number of counts you have run up on a song in a day - even counting 30 second clips???
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on May 20, 2020 10:20:47 GMT -5
Then why aren't they continuing the charity promotion this week? A song like this probably doesn’t have a particularly long shelf life since it’s not exactly a revolutionary song. Why not hit with the iron is hot? I know you seem to have it in for this song as a charity single. Are you doubting any of the money went to charity at all? I’m not sure why it’s such a bad thing for them to both give to charity and benefit by getting a number one at the same time. If it ended up they didn’t give the money to charity or they spent more on promo than they gave, then sure. But I also don’t think the situation is much worse than most major charitable organizations that spent huge amounts on promotion to raise money for research. It’s kind of part of the deal. I'm doubting any real money was made considering. I think the charity thing was a promotion angle meant to help Justin finally get the #1 as a lead artist they've been trying to rig for him for a few years now. |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on May 20, 2020 10:27:46 GMT -5
Why is this even a discussion point? You're talking technicalities for what purpose that doesn't even contribute to the actual discussion.
-that was to Gary. He blocked me so he probably won't see it so I just threw it out there.
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on May 20, 2020 10:33:08 GMT -5
A song like this probably doesn’t have a particularly long shelf life since it’s not exactly a revolutionary song. Why not hit with the iron is hot? I know you seem to have it in for this song as a charity single. Are you doubting any of the money went to charity at all? I’m not sure why it’s such a bad thing for them to both give to charity and benefit by getting a number one at the same time. If it ended up they didn’t give the money to charity or they spent more on promo than they gave, then sure. But I also don’t think the situation is much worse than most major charitable organizations that spent huge amounts on promotion to raise money for research. It’s kind of part of the deal. I'm doubting any real money was made considering. I think the charity thing was a promotion angle meant to help Justin finally get the #1 as a lead artist they've been trying to rig for him for a few years now. This is just speculation though. And if all you have to go on is speculation, it doesn't lend itself or your argument much credibility. I think we often underestimate how much money can be made through deals like this based on what we see or what we think we know. From my experience, doing something for charitable gain, or trying to raise money for something, people/organizations are often quite willing to give money or offer a service/product. People thinking Asshole Scooter got Amazon to give $5 per purchase? Stop. At most he or someone from that side could have pitched the idea to them but it's not something that can be bought and is ultimately Amazon's decision to make. So what if that also helped the song secure a #1 placement. |
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felipe
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Post by felipe on May 20, 2020 10:33:19 GMT -5
But, more importantly, is there a limit to how long one can have an avatar that isn't available on tinypic? Like, can you please fix it? I kind of like this avatar... |
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Post by Mayman on May 20, 2020 12:56:48 GMT -5
Why is this even a discussion point? You're talking technicalities for what purpose that doesn't even contribute to the actual discussion. -that was to Gary. He blocked me so he probably won't see it so I just threw it out there. Same he blocked me because I blocked and reported him for spamming my DMs because he couldn't grasp why I don't care if Billy Ray Cyrus is a one hit wonder or not. |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on May 20, 2020 12:58:08 GMT -5
Why is this even a discussion point? You're talking technicalities for what purpose that doesn't even contribute to the actual discussion. -that was to Gary. He blocked me so he probably won't see it so I just threw it out there. Same he blocked me because I blocked and reported him for spamming my DMs because he couldn't grasp why I don't care if Billy Ray Cyrus is a one hit wonder or not.  |
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