Mariah as a songwriter

[sundaymorningguy]

Do you think Mariah would have had her songwriting ability questioned less if she had written more songs for other artists, or would she have had the questions about her contributions to her music still?

There is part of me who would have been curious to see what Mariah could have written for other artists, but I always appreciated her knack for crafting amazingly catchy songs with absolutely beautiful melodies. I really can’t picture other artists with some of the songs she has created. It would have been interesting to see if the music industry would have looked at her differently if she had written other songs for other artists.

[jenglisbe]

"Hero" and other songs show she can write melodies for other artists, so I think she could have easily written more songs for other artists with those songs being different than the ones Mariah sings and only she can sing.

It is certainly possible had she done more of that people would give her more credit as a writer, but she likely would have still written those songs with Walter and others so some people might still give the men a lot of credit at Mariah's expense.

I guess Mariah doesn't have an interest in it, but I'd still love to see her write, produce, and arrange a song or two for artists like Kelly Clarkson or Ariana Grande. I'm sure they'd be open to it, particularly Kelly since she still often sings songs she didn't write.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

I’d say it’s mainly because she’s a woman and her music was mainly pop with songs that were huge pop hits. Pop music didn’t really have a ton of credibility during that point and most of the biggest female pop stars of the 90s didn’t write their songs so I think the genera assumption was that she didn’t either.

[back2blk]

I mean, who WERE the notable female songwriters of the 90s? Jewel? Alanis?

And how many number ones they got?

[irice22]

She wouldn't have her songwriting ability questioned if she was a man, I'll tell you that much.

[Carlitoz]

The issue may have been at the very beginning that to my young eyes back then they didn't market her as a songwriter (or at least not enough). The elements I remember the most back then when I totally fell in love with her and her first album was HER VOICE and then second that she was pretty and playful. Never did I get any songwriter vibe for sure not by her looks or kind of music. You know usually songwriters marketed as such tend to look more like Joni Mitchell or Carole King, etc. Or have music that is edgier or more alternative like I don't know Tori Amos back then or Sinead in her first album. Mariah was none of that. To me it was the birth of another pop diva like Whitney. I don't even remember if I knew she wrote her stuff even though I had the CDs with all the credits written in the booklet. Oh and by the second half of the 90s when her image became sexier and slowly started looking often like Jessica Rabbit that didn't help the songwriter thing either.

[jenglisbe]

Jan 10, 2022 12:20:43 GMT -5 Carlitoz said:

The issue may have been at the very beginning that to my young eyes back then they didn't market her as a songwriter (or at least not enough). The elements I remember the most back then when I totally fell in love with her and her first album was HER VOICE and then second that she was pretty and playful. Never did I get any songwriter vibe for sure not by her looks or kind of music. You know usually songwriters marketed as such tend to look more like Joni Mitchell or Carole King, etc. Or have music that is edgier or more alternative like I don't know Tori Amos back then or Sinead in her first album. Mariah was none of that. To me it was the birth of another pop diva like Whitney. I don't even remember if I knew she wrote her stuff even though I had the CDs with all the credits written in the booklet. Oh and by the second half of the 90s when her image became sexier and slowly started looking often like Jessica Rabbit that didn't help the songwriter thing either.

I'm sure you are right that her image was part of it, but it's a sad commentary on our culture that someone can't be seen as a songwriter because they're pretty/sexy.

[Carlitoz]

I'm with you, jenglisbe.

[back2blk]

Jan 10, 2022 12:20:43 GMT -5 Carlitoz said:

The issue may have been at the very beginning that to my young eyes back then they didn't market her as a songwriter (or at least not enough). The elements I remember the most back then when I totally fell in love with her and her first album was HER VOICE and then second that she was pretty and playful. Never did I get any songwriter vibe for sure not by her looks or kind of music. You know usually songwriters marketed as such tend to look more like Joni Mitchell or Carole King, etc. Or have music that is edgier or more alternative like I don't know Tori Amos back then or Sinead in her first album. Mariah was none of that. To me it was the birth of another pop diva like Whitney. I don't even remember if I knew she wrote her stuff even though I had the CDs with all the credits written in the booklet. Oh and by the second half of the 90s when her image became sexier and slowly started looking often like Jessica Rabbit that didn't help the songwriter thing either.

Nah she’s been pushing her songwriting abilities in her interviews since day ONE 

[spiritboy]

Even though i like Mariah a lot, i don't relate to many of her songs cause i am not a native speaker and some of her songs need me to use a dictionary. :kii:

[The Black Bird]

I guess her "overtly feminine" image and personality is part of the reason her songwriting skills were/are questioned tbh. In our culture, female songwriters are usually presented in a more serious light, their image is less girly or even alternative and their personalities are represented as deep or introspective. Mariah obviously has intelligence and covers deep subjects in some of her songs, but that's not how she was presented to the public, even in the early years her image was very feminine and later on very sexy as well, all of that has definitely contributed to the public not acknowledging her songwriting talent.

[Carlitoz]

thanks for the interview compilation, back2blk. Interesting to watch especially any early ones. Back in 1990 I was living in Peru and all I had from her was the CD and the videos from tv video shows. I didn't see any of those interviews at all back then. MTV Latino had not started broadcasting. Maybe there I would've caught some of them. But even in the U.S. something was going on because a lot of people had the same perception. What do you think was the factor? Mariah would've not spent her whole career defending her writing capabilities if it wasn't an issue.

[jenglisbe]

Jan 11, 2022 9:43:54 GMT -5 Carlitoz said:

thanks for the interview compilation, back2blk. Interesting to watch especially any early ones. Back in 1990 I was living in Peru and all I had from her was the CD and the videos from tv video shows. I didn't see any of those interviews at all back then. MTV Latino had not started broadcasting. Maybe there I would've caught some of them. But even in the U.S. something was going on because a lot of people had the same perception. What do you think was the factor? Mariah would've not spent her whole career defending her writing capabilities if it wasn't an issue.

Even now, despite Mariah continually pointing out she writes, you will articles and reviews that say people like JD, Hit Boy, etc wrote and/or produced a song (i.e. doesn't say "co-wrote" or "co-produced") which thus gives readers the impressions Mariah was not part of the writing and producing and the male was responsible).

[back2blk]

Then our answer is blatant misogyny in the music industry.

[Deleted]

The biggest factor in my opinion is that she doesn't play an instrument, which is part of the "songwriter" image. There are plenty of women who are acknowledged as songwriters, and even women with similar sexy images like Dolly Parton.

[Carlitoz]

Jan 11, 2022 10:39:14 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

The biggest factor in my opinion is that she doesn't play an instrument, which is part of the "songwriter" image. There are plenty of women who are acknowledged as songwriters, and even women with similar sexy images like Dolly Parton.

Great point.
If she had played say the piano from the start, I agree, the perception would've been different.

[dremolus - solarpunk]

who?

[back2blk]

But also, Whitney and Celine didn’t write their own songs and that’s who she was piled with.

Plus she came from the Sony conglomerate behind Tommy.

Nothing was working in her favor to support her individual artistry.