Why didn’t Vanessa Carlton have longevity?

[cassandrae]

I always wondered, how she had one of the most successful singles of 2002, to being barely remembered in a span of a year. I don’t think she had direct competition since her music was different. Was it bad labels, her just giving up on success, folks not caring about her music post ATM? Now I know she was going to fade but I wasn’t expecting her flopping already in her debut era with Pretty Baby..

Thoughts?

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Probably the same tale of artists with a major hit who weren’t able to expand that to larger general interest. Donna Lewis, Natalie Imbruglia, Lisa Loeb, Duncan Sheik, etc. plus after a few years, her general sound of lighter piano pop singer/songwriter wasn’t really in as much.

[Kelly's 10th Fan]

tl;dr answer: label issues + didn't perfectly fit current trends

much longer answer bc it's Saturday and I'm bored:

Vanessa debuted the same year female pop-rock was starting to explode but also the same year Norah Jones came out of nowhere...with major labels, there's always such a thin line between being 'just different enough' to carve out a lane they want to pour money into and being so different they suddenly 'don't know what to do with you.' The potential markets were there, but I wouldn't be surprised if being a more piano-driven artist pushed her onto the wrong side of that line compared to both the pop-rock girls and Norah. She may have come off as too young and too straightforwardly pop next to a jazz/AC artist who was capturing the silent gen and boomer generations, and she lacked the outward personality to grab younger fans along with P!nk, Avril, Kelly, etc.

Per wikipedia, it took Vanessa some time to even get to the debut album release; her first attempt was shelved. And after A Thousand Miles, it kind of seemed like there just wasn't any budget allotted to or remaining for promo, which would explain both Ordinary Day and Pretty Baby underperforming. Carlton said her debut was largely influenced by Ron Fair, A&M's president at the time, but the label 'wasn't very happy' with the direction of her second album, which was more true to what she wanted for herself (Harmonium is a good album btw; at worst I suppose one could argue it lacks a song with a hook as punchy as ATM). Harmonium's lead - and eventually, only - single got censored at both tv and radio (MTV eventually banned it entirely) because of the 'controversial' lyrics; I think it was the "my first time, hard to explain/rush of blood and a little bit of pain" line). After that, the label wanted Vanessa to record more songs for a Harmonium re-release, while she felt the album should continue to be pushed as is. She recorded a few things but released none of it and left in 2005 bc she felt her attitude would continue to be a problem if she stayed.

Most likely, the A&M execs went in already not having a large amount of faith in her longterm viability because of trends at the time, lucked into a hit in spite of themselves, then lost complete interest once Vanessa made it clear she wasn't going to let them direct her image or sound again and could not be bothered to invest in the necessary promo (including battling stupid non-scandals for PR).

I also think she was largely victim to general upheaval at the label. A&M had just been bought out a year or two before Vanessa signed to them and its operations merged into the Interscope-Geffen-A&M label group. From an operational standpoint A&M, previously owned by Polygram, was effectively sent dormant and most of its staff laid off, while more Interscope and Geffen (both previously owned by MCA) staff remained; but due to a legal technicality A&M's name was still being used for a small number of acts until it was brought back into fully active status in 2007 (by which time Vanessa was gone). Vanessa said she felt there was a lack of direction at the label when she was working on her debut and this is likely the reason for that. Being placed on the 'dormant' label with little of its original staff still around set her up to be a non-priority artist by default, and not naturally fitting into any of the overall label group's existing niches (Interscope and Geffen were mainly succeeding with hip-hop, rock, and pop-rock) made it worse.

Vanessa signed with The Inc. for her third album, but this was in '07 when The Inc. was falling apart, so it was unsurprisingly a sales flop. She's been indie ever since, but she seems more than fine with that.

[Daenerys]

Edit: I drafted this response before seeing the Welcome Committee's post, which is also fairly encompassing, apologies for any duplications. 

I sort of disagree with the premise that Vanessa didn't have any competition, or that she was unique to the market.

There were artists who were in a similar vein of pop-adult contemporary slash adult light styled alternative music that Vanessa was competing with. Michelle Branch, Nelly Furtado, P!nk, Shakira, and Avril all were trying to carve out pieces of that pie post 2000 at the same time, along with tons of bands. If you want to talk piano led singers you had alternatives in both Alicia Keys and Norah Jones.

Call it the Anti-Britney movement or a race to secure the title of this generation's Alanis Morrissette but artists and labels were actively courting those listening demographics and audiences of "serious rock/adult contemporary following" to counterpoint the Teen-Pop wave of the late 90's.

Returning to the question, I would suggest three thoughts:

- Artistically, she never captured the "zeitgeist" of A Thousand Miles, and didn't seem to understand why listeners resonated with it. Pretty Baby and Ordinary Day may sound structurally similar but both struggled to bottle even a fraction of interest A Thousand Miles did. She didn't have anything after that single with similar quality or hit potential. This limited the impact her debut had outside of that one single, making her seem more like a one-hit wonder than a strong debut artist.

- She took too long and didn't maintain her interest. After A Thousand Miles, she went away for two years and returned with a record which didn't hit. Her lack of visibility led to a vacuum where similar artists who were like her (see above) made the impression she needed to make but didn't, and she was forgotten.

- I did some light research on wiki, and reportedly Vanessa was difficult to work with, and she challenged record labels executives around A Thousand Miles. The executives may have felt she was too much trouble to focus on or engage with, and she wasn't producing. Due to her being "difficult" they could have not seen the point in investing in her further, and allocated resources elsewhere.

[Kelly's 10th Fan]

Aug 27, 2022 21:04:33 GMT -5 Daenerys said:

There were artists who were in a similar vein of pop-adult contemporary slash adult light styled alternative music that Vanessa was competing with. Michelle Branch, Nelly Furtado, P!nk, Shakira, and Avril all were trying to carve out pieces of that pie post 2000 at the same time, along with tons of bands. If you want to talk piano led singers you had alternatives in both Alicia Keys and Norah Jones.

In my head I was thinking 'am I the only one who always groups Vanessa and Michelle together when I think of either of them?' lol but then deleted that comment. Early Nelly didn't cross my mind but that also makes so much sense. Quirky coffeehouse pop. Even compared to those two, who weren't being marketed around their personalities, I think Vanessa didn't stand out as much.

- I did some light research on wiki, and reportedly Vanessa was difficult to work with, and she challenged record labels executives around A Thousand Miles. The executives may have felt she was too much trouble to focus on or engage with, and she wasn't producing. Due to her being "difficult" they could have not seen the point in investing in her further, and allocated resources elsewhere.

I am kind of conflicted on this. I chose not to mention it at first, but IMO the big issue with Harmonium is that it was produced by the lead singer from Third Eye Blind, whom Vanessa had started dating shortly after her debut album was released...and who was 16 years older than she was. She was 20-21 at the time so ~legal~, sure, but still quite young, and the way he rolled up on her right after a show screamed predatory to me tbh. Vanessa credited him with encouraging her to "protect herself" from label pressure but I suspect this probably played out more like her just swinging from being controlled by some old guys at the label to being controlled by some old guy she was dating. If Vanessa had been willing to work with A&M on anything her bf probably 'talked' her out of it very easily. That muddles the 'difficult' waters quite a bit for me, but regardless his involvement was destined not to end well for her. While I do like that album overall and think it aged well, I can also say there's not one song in particular I would pick out as an obvious single. White Houses came closest to kinda sorta sounding like A Thousand Miles and IMO is the better of the two lyrically, but melodically it didn't have the same appeal.

[irice22]

"White Houses" was such an amazing song that lots of people fell in love with. A shame it never took off.

[jenglisbe]

Sept 8, 2022 13:24:07 GMT -5 irice22 said:

"White Houses" was such an amazing song that lots of people fell in love with. A shame it never took off.

I love "WH," but it's not hard to see why it didn't smash. It doesn't have a true/solid chorus, and it didn't fit what was popular in 2004 (Ciara, Usher, Eminem). She was a bit more aligned with Kelly Clarkson and Avril Lavigne who had success in late 2004, but she wasn't as pop/rock as them so it wasn't a perfect fit. Her music would have done better in the late 1990s.

[myhouse911]

Harmonium would have had more success had Who's to Say been released. Though, I think White Houses is an exceptional song, it just wasn't radio friendly in comparison. Who's to Say fit right in with 'The Notebook' and its audience.

[Joe1240]

Vanessa had another minor hit that year with “Ordinary Day” at least was big by MTV TRL standards. Vanessa couldn’t keep with the pop/rock trend of her peers like Kelly Clarkson & Avril Lavigne so she faded out and not having a very good followup album either.

[myhouse911]

Sept 8, 2022 23:04:25 GMT -5 Joe1240 said:

Vanessa had another minor hit that year with “Ordinary Day” at least was big by MTV TRL standards. Vanessa couldn’t keep with the pop/rock trend of her peers like Kelly Clarkson & Avril Lavigne so she faded out and not having a very good followup album either.

Very debatable take right there. It didn't have an ATM on it, but I think and most fans think Harmonium was superior to BNN.

[The Brazilian Guy 🇧🇷]

It’s funny that “Pretty Baby” was HUGE in Brazil at the time (just as much as A Thousand Miles and even more than Ordinary Day). That gave me the false impression that she was headed to an even bigger second era… She even came here on a promotional tour for Harmonium (I love that album, btw… it brings me immediately back to my freshmen year in high school). “White Houses” is an amazing song, but I’m not sure it was a wise lead single choice commercially…

Sept 10, 2022 2:51:00 GMT -5 myhouse911 said:

Sept 8, 2022 23:04:25 GMT -5 Joe1240 said:

Vanessa had another minor hit that year with “Ordinary Day” at least was big by MTV TRL standards. Vanessa couldn’t keep with the pop/rock trend of her peers like Kelly Clarkson & Avril Lavigne so she faded out and not having a very good followup album either.

Very debatable take right there. It didn't have an ATM on it, but I think and most fans think Harmonium was superior to BNN.

100%

Harmonium is a much better record than her debut… to be honest, I only loved the singes on Be Not Nobody.

Her second album had so many songs I loved… White Houses, Who’s to Say, San Francisco, Annie, Afterglow, Private Radio…

[irice22]

Sept 8, 2022 22:15:56 GMT -5 myhouse911 said:

Harmonium would have had more success had Who's to Say been released. Though, I think White Houses is an exceptional song, it just wasn't radio friendly in comparison. Who's to Say fit right in with 'The Notebook' and its audience.

The original plan was to have "Private Radio" be the lead single. In hindsight that should have been the move.

[myhouse911]

Sept 10, 2022 11:28:20 GMT -5 irice22 said:

Sept 8, 2022 22:15:56 GMT -5 myhouse911 said:

Harmonium would have had more success had Who's to Say been released. Though, I think White Houses is an exceptional song, it just wasn't radio friendly in comparison. Who's to Say fit right in with 'The Notebook' and its audience.

The original plan was to have "Private Radio" be the lead single. In hindsight that should have been the move.

Yep, I remember that. I'm not sure if Private Radio would have done much better, but at least it wouldn't have been banned by MTV and VH1. I'm just personally not a huge fan of that song, though. It's definitely in the bottom half if I were to rank my favourites from 1-11 (or 12 if we include the U2 cover).

It's sad that she released two consecutive, really good albums after the debut and Harmonium to very little commercial success. Heroes & Thieves was very poppy, and I don't think I skip any track whenever I listen to it. Rabbits is a close second for me in her discography.

[HolidayGuy]

I liked all three of the first album's singles. "Pretty Baby" should have done better than it did, on all fronts. And "White Houses" was good, too.

She may have just got lost amidst all else at the time. Plus, maybe "A Thousand Miles" was so big, had such a moment, that it made it tougher for the follow-ups. "Ordinary Day" was top 10 at pop, though "Pretty Baby" just missed the top 20, with "White House" performing similarly. Her third album did produce a couple of Adult Top 40 hits, but that's about it.

[myhouse911]

Sept 11, 2022 16:31:37 GMT -5 HolidayGuy said:

I liked all three of the first album's singles. "Pretty Baby" should have done better than it did, on all fronts. And "White Houses" was good, too.

She may have just got lost amidst all else at the time. Plus, maybe "A Thousand Miles" was so big, had such a moment, that it made it tougher for the follow-ups. "Ordinary Day" was top 10 at pop, though "Pretty Baby" just missed the top 20, with "White House" performing similarly. Her third album did produce a couple of Adult Top 40 hits, but that's about it.

Yep, Nolita Fairytale and Hands on Me both reached top 40 (I think?) on that chart. They also got played on the CW, so she got some exposure for that album. Obviously, not enough, though.

[bat1990]

Thank you for the "Private Radio" love! I was going to mention it until I finally saw it in some posts further down-thread.

Aug 28, 2022 2:33:32 GMT -5 Kelly's 10th Fan said:

I am kind of conflicted on this. I chose not to mention it at first, but IMO the big issue with Harmonium is that it was produced by the lead singer from Third Eye Blind, whom Vanessa had started dating shortly after her debut album was released...and who was 16 years older than she was. She was 20-21 at the time so ~legal~, sure, but still quite young, and the way he rolled up on her right after a show screamed predatory to me tbh. Vanessa credited him with encouraging her to "protect herself" from label pressure but I suspect this probably played out more like her just swinging from being controlled by some old guys at the label to being controlled by some old guy she was dating. If Vanessa had been willing to work with A&M on anything her bf probably 'talked' her out of it very easily. That muddles the 'difficult' waters quite a bit for me, but regardless his involvement was destined not to end well for her. While I do like that album overall and think it aged well, I can also say there's not one song in particular I would pick out as an obvious single. White Houses came closest to kinda sorta sounding like A Thousand Miles and IMO is the better of the two lyrically, but melodically it didn't have the same appeal.

I knew she had largely recorded Harmonium with her boyfriend at the time, but I wasn't aware of the age difference.
However, I agree with Vanessa that the album didn't need more songs. I think leading with "Private Radio" and following with "Who's To Say" with some cross-promotional deals with Teen Dramas and primetime shows could've gotten things moving. But like so many female artists at the time, if there was no champion for them at the label, no song that radio picked up in spite of label indifference/lack of resources, and the lack of money due to pirating reducing revenues, many got left in the dust despite releasing great projects.

EDIT: Female artists who did consistently well in 2003-2004 were few and far between. Just doing a quick look at the Hot 100 year-ends, here's who stood out.
Christina Aguilera
Ashanti
Beyoncé
Lil Kim
J Lo
Missy Elliott
Alicia Keys
Ciara
Avril Lavigne
Shania Twain (at Country, AC, HAC)
Michelle Branch
Monica (at Urban & Rhythmic)

Established acts (Whitney, Janet, Mariah, Toni, Celine, Madonna, TLC) were not doing well. A lot of newer artists with buzz also did not see the same level of success or sustained more than a single hit (Brandy, Kelis, Jewel, Vanessa, Nelly Furtado, Alanis, Sarah McLachlan, P!nk, Kelly Clarkson, Britney until Toxic took off). Heck, Jessica Simpson and Gwen Stefani weren't doing well until hard pushes for follow-up singles in late '04 and '05 brought them back up the charts.

And to my eternal sadness, Capitol squandered Kylie's Body Language stateside. :'(

[jenglisbe]

Sept 12, 2022 10:06:31 GMT -5 bat1990 said:

EDIT: Female artists who did consistently well in 2003-2004 were few and far between. Just doing a quick look at the Hot 100 year-ends, here's who stood out.
Christina Aguilera
Ashanti
Beyoncé
Lil Kim
J Lo
Missy Elliott
Alicia Keys
Ciara
Avril Lavigne
Shania Twain (at Country, AC, HAC)
Michelle Branch
Monica (at Urban & Rhythmic)

The majority of those women made music that was more rooted in R&B or hip-hop, too. The early 00s is when Top 40, Rhythmic, and Urban all became very similar. It's also when there was no real sales component since the physical single died and digital sales had not yet taken off. You include Michelle Branch, but she fell off after 2003 so she suffered the same fate as Carlton, though I don't know how much she was releasing then. (I will add that Britney Spears got back in favor in 2004.) You do note that Shania was not doing well at Top 40 and it was more so other formats.

[upsidedown]

I had no idea Ordinary Day went Top 10 at Pop and Pretty Baby Top 20. All things considered, those are still decent chart followups for that era. In my mind, I remember them being TRL hits but didn't think they did anything on the real charts lol. 3 Top 20 pop hits you would think would still be a good enough jumping off start for era #2, but alas.

[HolidayGuy]

^Almost top 20 for "Pretty Baby"- but close enough. :) Given the lack of sales info, as jeng noted, Hot 100 showing needs to be taken with a grain of salt for some singles in the ~2001-2004 era.