iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Nov 11, 2022 13:17:44 GMT -5
Obviously this is just charts, but trying to minimize people complaining about something by saying “well it’s always been done!”… is pretty dumb (it doesn’t offer any perspective to the issue), and only is just trying to make someone feel discouraged to point out a flaw in a system. What’s hard to understand? Calling my perspective dumb and saying it doesn't move the discussion forward to shut me down... is such a gaslighting thing to do. See what I did there? Stating history and facts is not gaslighting. Me bringing up the way the charts have been ran for thirty plus years is to literally add perspective to the discussion. And I doubt anyone in here is so discouraged by my innocuous post that they can't speak up or disagree with me on their own accord. But I appreciate your candor! It’s not a “perspective” to say something has always been done. It’s just following up someone’s argument with a random unnecessary information that doesn’t actually address said argument. You didn’t do anything with that. People are saying remixes are being used to game the chart. It’s always been done. Okay? Cool? What does that have to do with actually providing a response to whether it’s gaming and whether action should be taken. Person: “Companies should not take bribes” Another person: “Bribery has always been done” You see? A completely useless tidbit of information to an argument/stance in almost every instance just used to scapegoat out of actually acknowledging the issue. |
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Ling-Ling
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Post by Ling-Ling on Nov 11, 2022 13:22:20 GMT -5
Calling my perspective dumb and saying it doesn't move the discussion forward to shut me down... is such a gaslighting thing to do. See what I did there? Stating history and facts is not gaslighting. Me bringing up the way the charts have been ran for thirty plus years is to literally add perspective to the discussion. And I doubt anyone in here is so discouraged by my innocuous post that they can't speak up or disagree with me on their own accord. But I appreciate your candor! It’s not a “perspective” to say something has always been done. It’s just following up someone’s argument with a random unnecessary information that doesn’t actually address said argument. You didn’t do anything with that. People are saying remixes are being used to game the chart. It’s always been done. Okay? Cool? What does that have to do with actually providing a response to whether it’s gaming and whether action should be taken. Person: “Companies should not take bribes” Another person: “Bribery has always been done” You see? A completely useless tidbit of information to an argument/stance in almost every instance just used to scapegoat out of actually acknowledging the issue. I explicitly gave my opinion in that post. I said the changes Billboard made with BTS were enough and I'm not convinced about removing or diminishing sales in the formula any further. |
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 11, 2022 13:29:32 GMT -5
Calling my perspective dumb and saying it doesn't move the discussion forward to shut me down... is such a gaslighting thing to do. See what I did there? Stating history and facts is not gaslighting. Me bringing up the way the charts have been ran for thirty plus years is to literally add perspective to the discussion. And I doubt anyone in here is so discouraged by my innocuous post that they can't speak up or disagree with me on their own accord. But I appreciate your candor! It’s not a “perspective” to say something has always been done. It’s just following up someone’s argument with a random unnecessary information that doesn’t actually address said argument. You didn’t do anything with that. People are saying remixes are being used to game the chart. It’s always been done. Okay? Cool? What does that have to do with actually providing a response to whether it’s gaming and whether action should be taken. Person: “Companies should not take bribes” Another person: “Bribery has always been done” You see? A completely useless tidbit of information to an argument/stance in almost every instance Additionally, remixes in the 90s and early 00s were usually all released together at one time on a maxi-single that cost $5.99 or whatever. So while it's technically true that remixes have been a thing for decades, this pattern of releasing them individually at key times and in ways that provide a loophole for chart rules is definitely all a new thing. I don't remember anyone in the 90s having a different commercial single for each remix (it would usually be a cheap single for the main version and then the maxi-single), though someone correct me if I'm wrong. But yeah, chart manipulation will always be a thing. Separate but related question; how do all of these remixes count toward album sales? I know for the RIAA if a remix is not on the album, it doesn't count. Is that how it works for Billboard, too? |
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Envoirment
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Post by Envoirment on Nov 11, 2022 13:46:11 GMT -5
Happy to see Taylor pushing for a 3rd week at #1. "Anti-Hero" is one of my favourite singles of hers in a long time and hope it can get quite a few more weeks at #1!
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renfield75
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Post by renfield75 on Nov 11, 2022 14:01:48 GMT -5
It is kinda funny that Billboard counts the "Taylor's Version" re-records as separate entries from the originals but these re-records of "Anti-Hero" count towards the original's total. So if she released another mix just called "Anti-Hero (Taylor's Version)" would they count it as a new entry?
Honestly though I don't know what they could do. Cap the number of remixes they allow to count? That's unfair to dance songs that get a ton of remixes. Count them all as separate versions? That would be a nightmare, and punish songs like Snt JHN's "Roses" that did well in both their original and remix forms.
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korbel16
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Post by korbel16 on Nov 11, 2022 14:02:20 GMT -5
i haven’t seen this many remixes in this little time since like Old Town Road lmaooo. Taylor played the game well lol
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Nov 11, 2022 14:18:54 GMT -5
Additionally, remixes in the 90s and early 00s were usually all released together at one time on a maxi-single that cost $5.99 or whatever. So while it's technically true that remixes have been a thing for decades, this pattern of releasing them individually at key times and in ways that provide a loophole for chart rules is definitely all a new thing. I don't remember anyone in the 90s having a different commercial single for each remix (it would usually be a cheap single for the main version and then the maxi-single), though someone correct me if I'm wrong. But yeah, chart manipulation will always be a thing. Separate but related question; how do all of these remixes count toward album sales? I know for the RIAA if a remix is not on the album, it doesn't count. Is that how it works for Billboard, too? Right, the issue is not remixes existing in general. Yeah remixes have always been used, and often, are legitimately popular. The issue is the whole releasing 5 different remixes throughout the tracking week each day to close gaps lol. Which obviously wasn't a thing until recently, so trying to equate a remix existing 30 years ago to this just makes no sense. As I said though -- the issue imo appears to be more with digital sales than remixes. Remixes count for TEA/SEA even if not on the album, since they are a version of the song on the album. Just as a radio edit or clean version not on the album would count towards it. |
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pnobelysk
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Post by pnobelysk on Nov 11, 2022 14:20:29 GMT -5
If anti hero sells 140k like predicted this week it will be one of the best selling songs released in all of 2022
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 11, 2022 14:26:48 GMT -5
It is kinda funny that Billboard counts the "Taylor's Version" re-records as separate entries from the originals but these re-records of "Anti-Hero" count towards the original's total. So if she released another mix just called "Anti-Hero (Taylor's Version)" would they count it as a new entry? Well, keep in mind 1) the TVs being on a different label than the originals and 2) the huge gap in time between the originals and TVs as Billboard doesn't combine remixes with originals if they are released much later. Remixes count for TEA/SEA even if not on the album, since they are a version of the song on the album. Just as a radio edit or clean version not on the album would count towards it. This is a rule that 100% needs changing IMO. All of these random remixes for "A-H" don't actually have anything to do with the album, and more so a person buying an EPs worth of remixes for an individual song shouldn't then have that counted as a purchase of the album. This is actually more wild to me than the issue with the Hot 100. |
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👑 Eloquent ™
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Post by 👑 Eloquent ™ on Nov 11, 2022 14:40:26 GMT -5
Did Taylor record new vocals for these remixes? I haven't listened to any. lol
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irice22
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Post by irice22 on Nov 11, 2022 14:49:46 GMT -5
Happy to see Taylor pushing for a 3rd week at #1. "Anti-Hero" is one of my favourite singles of hers in a long time and hope it can get quite a few more weeks at #1! To be fair, it certainly does feel like the #1 song in the US right now. And thats what the Hot 100 is intended to capture. |
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 11, 2022 14:57:04 GMT -5
Happy to see Taylor pushing for a 3rd week at #1. "Anti-Hero" is one of my favourite singles of hers in a long time and hope it can get quite a few more weeks at #1! To be fair, it certainly does feel like the #1 song in the US right now. And thats what the Hot 100 is intended to capture. To you maybe, and that's likely in part because Taylor has done all that she's done for the song. To the millions who were streaming a Drake song despite it not having a radio push, remixes, etc things might feel differently. I haven't heard "Rich Flex" or "Anti-Hero" so I have no preference here, but can we at least mention that it's pretty amazing how many streams/chart points "RF" is going to get without a video, a radio push, remixes, etc? Drake really hasn't done much of anything to push this song, and it's going to get hella chart points. If we want to talk about "organic hits," this is one. |
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Nov 11, 2022 15:41:32 GMT -5
[your very long response] you do realize the entire point of a Hot 100 chart is about gatekeeping what can and cannot chart, right? like it's not news to you that YouTube streams didn't count until 2013 and Facebook streams didn't count until 2021. in 2020, they removed user-generated content streams from the Hot 100. paid streams still count more than free streams. we could go on and on... literally who are you to dictate what can and cannot/should and should not count? unless you work in the Billboard charts department, it's really not up to us to decide -- but we sure can share our opinions if we're not happy with what's going on. I do not appreciate your attitude approaching this conversation. it's not unreasonable or a "you problem" to think there should be a formula change, lmao. what even. |
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Fanstar1
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Post by Fanstar1 on Nov 11, 2022 16:00:20 GMT -5
hitsdailydouble.com/sales_plus_streamingTaylor has 31k TEA this week according to HDD, which means 310k track sales total from all 20 tracks. Since the other 19 aren't doing that much, Anti-Hero could go WELL above the original 140k prediction from Lip. If HDD has it right, it could be more like 280k pure sales, bigger than Butter's peak week.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 11, 2022 16:06:18 GMT -5
hitsdailydouble.com/sales_plus_streamingTaylor has 31k TEA this week according to HDD, which means 310k track sales total from all 20 tracks. Since the other 19 aren't doing that much, Anti-Hero could go WELL above the original 140k prediction from Lip. If HDD has it right, it could be more like 280k pure sales, bigger than Butter's peak week. Wait, how long were the singles even available for sale? 280k in 1-2 days would be insane. I feel like I'm missing something. |
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Fanstar1
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Post by Fanstar1 on Nov 11, 2022 16:12:34 GMT -5
hitsdailydouble.com/sales_plus_streamingTaylor has 31k TEA this week according to HDD, which means 310k track sales total from all 20 tracks. Since the other 19 aren't doing that much, Anti-Hero could go WELL above the original 140k prediction from Lip. If HDD has it right, it could be more like 280k pure sales, bigger than Butter's peak week. Wait, how long were the singles even available for sale? 280k in 1-2 days would be insane. I feel like I'm missing something. There were like 3 remixes released in the final day (as initially website exclusives) and about 6 total. If HDD's figures hold true it would mean something like 130-140k digital copies were sold on Thursday alone. |
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Post by purp child on Nov 11, 2022 16:13:46 GMT -5
Ever since Taylor lost Artist of the Decade she's been on an all out blitz to prove something she just isn't anymore:
An organic hit maker
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 11, 2022 16:14:05 GMT -5
Wait, how long were the singles even available for sale? 280k in 1-2 days would be insane. I feel like I'm missing something. There were like 3 remixes released in the final day (as initially website exclusives) and about 6 total. If HDD's figures hold true it would mean something like 130-140k digital copies were sold on Thursday alone. That is truly wild. |
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👑 Eloquent ™
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Post by 👑 Eloquent ™ on Nov 11, 2022 16:17:50 GMT -5
Ever since Taylor lost Artist of the Decade she's been on an all out blitz to prove something she just isn't anymore: An organic hit maker Technically she has an organic hit with "Anti Hero". That's suddenly not in contention because she's pulling stunts this week. It's viral on Tiktok, the streaming is amazing, etc. I'm with you guys on the tactics and manipulation, but then you make absurd statements and I....lol. |
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 11, 2022 16:29:21 GMT -5
Both acts engaged in activities to manipulate the charts for a desired chart position. The end. Didn’t Drake postpone his album for a desired chart position? It was delayed because it wasn't done and his co-producer or someone got Covid. Drake didn't need to delay the album to get #1. His total for this week is going to be higher than what Swift's album did last week, so he would have been #1 last week, too. |
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👑 Eloquent ™
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Post by 👑 Eloquent ™ on Nov 11, 2022 16:34:02 GMT -5
Didn’t Drake postpone his album for a desired chart position? It was delayed because it wasn't done and his co-producer or someone got Covid. Drake didn't need to delay the album to get #1. His total for this week is going to be higher than what Swift's album did last week, so he would have been #1 last week, too. Hindsight is 20/20, I think the implication was, though, at the time he didn't know and wasn't guaranteed to outsell her. Plus following the debut week of an album that sold a whopping 1.6 milli has to be intimidating for any artist. |
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Post by kcdawg13 on Nov 11, 2022 16:43:06 GMT -5
You can tell that Old Town Road blocking two of her songs from #1 in 2019 really burned her, now she's doing the same tactic Lil Nas X did to maintain the #1 spot. I'm not really sure how I feel about this whole situation, it's different from the BTS thing because Anti-Hero has actual streaming and radio support unlike Butter, however it seems a little weird how the biggest streaming song of the week is gonna be blocked from #1, this was the same thing Switfies were complaining about last week when radio heavy Rihanna was challenging for the spot.
One thing we can all agree on, this is the most entertaining the Hot 100 has been all year. Thank you Taylor/Drake for pulling through some drama and laughs during this otherwise boring chart year. Also RIP to poor Unholy and Bad Habit which have been ping-ponging up and down the last couple weeks and will be forced to do it again come Christmas.
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jayhawk1117
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Post by jayhawk1117 on Nov 11, 2022 16:43:50 GMT -5
Ever since Taylor lost Artist of the Decade she's been on an all out blitz to prove something she just isn't anymore: An organic hit maker Lmao the first 2 weeks just don’t count anymore huh |
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Nov 11, 2022 16:57:52 GMT -5
Some of y'all still this bothered by marketing tactics? Every act has the opportunity and means to do whatever they like to boost their music on the charts. As always, some labels/acts are just into it more and, therefore, reap the benefits. This is not new. Whether it was regular deep discounting of singles or tacking another act on to an existing single to get a one-week chart boost- just two examples.
Also, some acts will see a better result than others. Not every act will see the results that Taylor Swift is seeing. Look at what her album opened with; this is no fluke, fly-by-night act or single.
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Nov 11, 2022 17:02:02 GMT -5
Some of y'all still this bothered by marketing tactics? Every act has the opportunity and means to do whatever they like to boost their music on the charts. As always, some labels/acts are just into it more and, therefore, reap the benefits. This is not new. Whether it was regular deep discounting of singles or tacking another act on to an existing single to get a one-week chart boost- just two examples. Also, some acts will see a better result than others. Not every act will see the results that Taylor Swift is seeing. Look at what her album opened with; this is no fluke, fly-by-night act or single. yes, but this is fully being oblivious to the "web store exclusive" nature of these remixes, marketed for fans to buy before hearing them, because sales makes a disproportionately bigger impact on the chart than streaming or airplay. no one's against remixes or putting them up for sale, even. but there's something wrong with how this affects the charts and how manipulative this tactic is, and you need to really bend over backwards to pretend it's a non-issue. |
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Nov 11, 2022 17:10:06 GMT -5
^If a consumer can be "manipulated" into buying a product, that is on them, me thinks. :) Some fanbases are just more dedicated than others, too.
Billboard did something to address what was happening with BTS and the Army. So, whatever Swift and her label are doing, it falls in line with the rules, it looks.
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👑 Eloquent ™
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Post by 👑 Eloquent ™ on Nov 11, 2022 17:12:03 GMT -5
Some of y'all still this bothered by marketing tactics? Every act has the opportunity and means to do whatever they like to boost their music on the charts. As always, some labels/acts are just into it more and, therefore, reap the benefits. This is not new. Whether it was regular deep discounting of singles or tacking another act on to an existing single to get a one-week chart boost- just two examples. Also, some acts will see a better result than others. Not every act will see the results that Taylor Swift is seeing. Look at what her album opened with; this is no fluke, fly-by-night act or single. yes, but this is fully being oblivious to the "web store exclusive" nature of these remixes, marketed for fans to buy before hearing them, because sales makes a disproportionately bigger impact on the chart than streaming or airplay. no one's against remixes or putting them up for sale, even. but there's something wrong with how this affects the charts and how manipulative this tactic is, and you need to really bend over backwards to pretend it's a non-issue. I gotta say, yeah, agreed. I didn't know artists were selling from their own websites, unmonitored (essentially) leaving the same person able to buy 50,000 copies of one remix, yet Billboard sees no issue in blindly accepting these numbers despite implementing changes in their own rules to prevent exactly that kind of manipulation? That's a gargantuan loophole and huge problem? |
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Fanstar1
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Post by Fanstar1 on Nov 11, 2022 17:20:50 GMT -5
yes, but this is fully being oblivious to the "web store exclusive" nature of these remixes, marketed for fans to buy before hearing them, because sales makes a disproportionately bigger impact on the chart than streaming or airplay. no one's against remixes or putting them up for sale, even. but there's something wrong with how this affects the charts and how manipulative this tactic is, and you need to really bend over backwards to pretend it's a non-issue. I gotta say, yeah, agreed. I didn't know artists were selling from their own websites, unmonitored (essentially) leaving the same person able to buy 50,000 copies of one remix, yet Billboard sees no issue in blindly accepting these numbers despite implementing changes in their own rules to prevent exactly that kind of manipulation? That's a gargantuan loophole and huge problem? Pretty sure not only do the vast majority of artist websites don't even allow you to purchase more than a certain amount of digital versions, but also Luminate does filter based on a number of data points. That said there is an issue of fraud by the labels through them (as shown with Industry Baby back in late 2021, which got like 20 thousand sales out of nowhere last minute to take #1 over Stay). An individual person can't just buy 50,000 copies on a digital storefront to boost the position of a song, but there is a real (and already exploited) vector for labels to fudge the numbers relating to them. |
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👑 Eloquent ™
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Post by 👑 Eloquent ™ on Nov 11, 2022 17:29:02 GMT -5
Pretty sure not only do the vast majority of artist websites don't even allow you to purchase more than a certain amount of digital versions, but also Luminate does filter based on a number of data points. That said there is an issue of fraud by the labels through them (as shown with Industry Baby back in late 2021, which got like 20 thousand sales out of nowhere last minute to take #1 over Stay). An individual person can't just buy 50,000 copies on a digital storefront to boost the position of a song, but there is a real (and already exploited) vector for labels to fudge the numbers relating to them. I was being exaggerative with the 50k figure, was just referencing another poster saying something about these web stores not making users have accounts and allowing them to purchase multiple versions etc (which leads to bulk-buying pretty directly). Admittedly I don't know much if anything about how Billboard monitors these stores but I would hope they'd be made to follow the same guidelines! Thanks for the info! |
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Post by KeepDeanWeird on Nov 11, 2022 17:31:10 GMT -5
I just saw the Queen of Christmas *organically (manipulated)* CBS into televising a 2-hour special Dec 20., with plenty of replays on sister channels.
Clearly it’s a *desperate* strategy designed to guarantee AIWFCIY is #1 through more sales (since only old folk stuck in iTunes era watch network TV). The is all designed to in response to streaming being diluted due to MB audiences being higher.
MC is so much *better* than BTS, Taylor, etc.
Oh, the Special will be an perfect bookend to the Halloween morph It’s Time, the daily QofC articles, etc and it’s only Veterans Day!
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