Billboard Hot 100: 11/19/2022

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Nov 11, 2022 8:59:40 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Nov 11, 2022 8:57:16 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

I mean this week’s example. Maybe people aren’t outraged enough? Idk

I mean, I guess it also depends how one defines "upset" or "outrage" and such. Speaking for myself only, just because I post annoyance with something in a thread here doesn't mean I am thinking about it when I'm not on Pulse; this stuff doesn't ever really affect my actual day lmao.

I'm skeptical that's the case for many in here right now tbh. From what I've gathered, most agree that Taylor's remixes are blatant manipulation for chart points and have varying degrees of how okay they are with them. Maybe that's where the arguments are coming from, because people are okay with it and others aren't happy that people are okay with it?
For me, as I've said a few times already, it comes down to how many people are actually buying. From a chart-watching perspective, cases like these will always frustrate me because they call into question the integrity of the chart -- but at the same time, I know cases like these (and cases not like these that could also question the chart's integrity) happen probably more often than not and have for decades, if not since the beginning of the chart:
* When a single has a price discount advantage
* when a single has multiple versions available
* when a song is available in multiple formats
* etc, etc.
All of these offer advantages and uneven playing fields that potentially result in higher chart performances than would have happened otherwise if every song were the same price, available the same way, etc. That's the way the chart has always been. As long as there are people there to buy them (and buy them fairly - not multiple copies, etc - and that's where my issue typically comes in), then it's ultimately fair game. It's similar to on the album chart when an album is discounted, available in multiple covers, or is overloaded with tracks to ensure it has more streaming and overall better numbers for a higher chart performance (I'm looking at those 22 track albums full of filler). Not every title has the same playing field. Some albums will have advantages. It's ultimately up to each of ourselves to determine what we are personally okay with.

[jenglisbe]

Nov 11, 2022 9:18:49 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Nov 11, 2022 8:59:40 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

I mean, I guess it also depends how one defines "upset" or "outrage" and such. Speaking for myself only, just because I post annoyance with something in a thread here doesn't mean I am thinking about it when I'm not on Pulse; this stuff doesn't ever really affect my actual day lmao.

I'm skeptical that's the case for many in here right now tbh. From what I've gathered, most agree that Taylor's remixes are blatant manipulation for chart points and have varying degrees of how okay they are with them. Maybe that's where the arguments are coming from, because people are okay with it and others aren't happy that people are okay with it?
For me, as I've said a few times already, it comes down to how many people are actually buying. From a chart-watching perspective, cases like these will always frustrate me because they call into question the integrity of the chart -- but at the same time, I know cases like these (and cases not like these that could also question the chart's integrity) happen probably more often than not and have for decades, if not since the beginning of the chart:
* When a single has a price discount advantage
* when a single has multiple versions available
* when a song is available in multiple formats
* etc, etc.
All of these offer advantages and uneven playing fields that potentially result in higher chart performances than would have happened otherwise if every song were the same price, available the same way, etc. That's the way the chart has always been. As long as there are people there to buy them (and buy them fairly - not multiple copies, etc - and that's where my issue typically comes in), then it's ultimately fair game. It's similar to on the album chart when an album is discounted, available in multiple covers, or is overloaded with tracks to ensure it has more streaming and overall better numbers for a higher chart performance (I'm looking at those 22 track albums full of filler). Not every title has the same playing field. Some albums will have advantages. It's ultimately up to each of ourselves to determine what we are personally okay with.

All of this is 100% accurate, of course. I think for some people there is a difference in having something be one way from 21 jump street (i.e. a 22 track album that remains as such) and an artist continually pulling out 'tricks' with the same release though (i.e. discounting price randomly and adding tracks at later points in the case of albums, or all of this stuff has been doing with her singles). But yeah, the charts have never been 100% pure and probably never will be.

[Taylor.]

[jjunie]

Nov 11, 2022 10:16:54 GMT -5 Taylor. said:

she's so funny lol I really thought she had no chance for that no.1 but I know she has tricks under her sleeves

[jenglisbe]

Nov 11, 2022 10:16:54 GMT -5 Taylor. said:

The comments are hilarious in that I see a lot of Swift fans gloating "We won" and more so insulting Drake as crying/losing; it's all funny because Drake literally didn't even try lmao. At least last week Rihanna's team was trying so you could call it a battle of sorts to be won, but this all shows the psychology that exists among Swift and her stans.

[Taylor.]

^ Stan Twitter in a nutshell. There are just as many replies, if not more, dragging her. Never look at the replies under a tweet from Pop Crave, TOTC, Chart Data, etc. and life will be much better! Especially now that half of them are verified. 💀

[thegreatdivine]

Nov 11, 2022 10:25:17 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Nov 11, 2022 10:16:54 GMT -5 Taylor. said:

The comments are hilarious in that I see a lot of Swift fans gloating "We won" and more so insulting Drake as crying/losing; it's all funny because Drake literally didn't even try lmao. At least last week Rihanna's team was trying so you could call it a battle of sorts to be won, but this all shows the psychology that exists among Swift and her stans.

I've noticed a lot of Taylor fans have embraced a sort of victim/Taylor vs. the world mentality for many musicians who probably have never considered Taylor competition or a threat. I've seen Swifties go at Adele fans (starting with when she did an interview and while speaking on her friendship with Drake, referred to him and her as the "last of a dying breed" of musicians of their stature. Many Swifties took that as an insult when Adele likely wasn't even thinking about Taylor when she made that comment), Beyoncè fans and more recently, Rihanna fans and now Drake (who has never done anything to Taylor btw and yet they're making it to be like him even DARING to release an album so close to hers should be a punishable offense). I've also seen some of them saying this is "justice!" for what he supposedly said to Megan Thee Stallion and it all makes me wonder how laughable and convenient their white female brand of feminism must be).

All of that just shows me how immature her fanbase still is.

Anyways, congratulations to her. She definitely put in all the effort needed to secure the #1 spot.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Okay but literally all stanbases are terrible. We can single out Taylor fans now but let’s not imply hers are the only bad ones.

[jjunie]

that's just how stan twitter works lol but yeah swiftietwt in general (the loud minority) is very hypocrite and elitist. remember that viral twt accusing tswift to be fatphobic (which she wasn't btw) but her fanbase proceeds to be fatphobic towards that person which is ironic

[thegreatdivine]

Nov 11, 2022 10:40:01 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Okay but literally all stanbases are terrible. We can single out Taylor fans now but let’s not imply hers are the only bad ones.

"I've noticed A LOT of Taylor fans..."

A LOT. Not all. Not even most. Just a lot. Especially those who are very vocal online.

And I never said she was the only one with a toxic fanbase. Basically every famous musician has a sub-section of their fanbase that's toxic.

[thegreatdivine]

I hope Drake somehow manages 8 top 10 debuts with this album.

That'd have him with 7 top 10 hits for Scorpion, 8 for Her Loss and 9 for Certified Lover Boy. Perhaps he'll get all 10 spots sometime in the future. That'd be cool to see.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Nov 11, 2022 10:56:25 GMT -5 thegreatdivine said:

Nov 11, 2022 10:40:01 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Okay but literally all stanbases are terrible. We can single out Taylor fans now but let’s not imply hers are the only bad ones.

"I've noticed A LOT of Taylor fans..."

A LOT. Not all. Not even most. Just a lot. Especially those who are very vocal online.

And I never said she was the only one with a toxic fanbase. Basically every famous musician has a sub-section of their fanbase that's toxic.

Fair enough. The mistake is really acknowledging them at all. Even as a Gaga fan, I find Gaga stans irritating and problematic too. Stan mentality is the worst part of following pop music. The best thing to do is ignore them — though that can be hard seeing as influential they can be as they’re likely the target audience for various remixes and alternate digital single covers and whatever else…

[Fanstar1]

[joshtheking]

Those sales are ridiculous. Even as a Swift fan, Anti-Hero did not deserve #1 this week. I don't get why they went through all of this when it likely would've returned to #1 the following week anyway

[jja2389]

I think her and her team noticed this is her best performing single in a long time and are doing everything in their power to prolong that fall from number 1. I can’t blame them even though it’s annoying.

[Ling-Ling]

Remixes have been used to manipulate the charts for decades. Why are people so pressed? Discounted singles/maxi-singles full of remixes timed perfectly to coincide with radio peaks. Releasing completely reworked songs and labeling them as remixes to get a multi-format advantage. Adding a feature or a rapper to a third or fourth single to entice people to buy a single late into an album campaign. All are manipulative chart tactics and they all depend on whether fans or stans are willing to purchase them or not.

So do I think what Taylor is doing is tacky? Eh. It's definitely obvious and unneeded. But nobody has made a convincing case for eliminating sales from the formula IMO. I think the changes Billboard made with the BTS issue are enough.

And as a huge fan of remixes, I wish more artists would release them (and quite frankly the Roosevelt remix > album version). Although releasing a digital remix EP all at once would probably be the less egregious way to do it, lol.

[jenglisbe]

Nov 11, 2022 11:35:21 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Remixes have been used to manipulate the charts for decades. Why are people so pressed?

I guess some people are "pressed," but I'd also throw out that posting criticism on a messageboard doesn't necessarily mean someone cares beyond a second's thought (or in my case boredom at work).

Although releasing a digital remix EP all at once would probably be the less egregious way to do it, lol.

Anyway, this answers your question about people being pressed/annoyed. A remix EP of all of this released at one time wouldn't elicit nearly as much criticism. It's that the remixes are dragged out across literal weeks, in addition to the instrumentals and various cover photos and such, for a song that (as joshtheking said) was going to return to #1 regardless. Like, all of this for a song that is already #1 and was going to return to #1 is definitely "egregious" lol. You mentioned that other artists have remixes/discounts, and they do, but it's usually to finally get a song to #1 or something, not to grab a random third week and such.

[Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ]

Nov 11, 2022 11:29:00 GMT -5 jja2389 said:

I think her and her team noticed this is her best performing single in a long time and are doing everything in their power to prolong that fall from number 1. I can’t blame them even though it’s annoying.

but you can have a hit even without a week at #1 (Levitating, Counting Stars, Radioactive, Love Story, Hot N Cold, Bad Romance...). If someone fights for their first #1 / song's first week at #1, I can understand that, but Taylor is fighting for Anti-Hero's 3rd(???) week at #1 with a song that has 30M streams more...

[dremolus - solarpunk]

Nov 3, 2022 22:59:16 GMT -5 dremolus - solarpunk said:

Mid-Week Release:

Notable Singles
파란노을 [Parannoul] - 불면증 (Insomnia)
Hatchie - Nosedive
Fleet Foxes and Tim Bernardes - A Sky Like I’ve Never Seen
Floating Points - Someone Close
Sega Bodega - Kepko
slowthai - i know nothing
Dean Blunt - death drive freestyle
Flume - Slugger 1.4
Slug - Cut of Your Jib
potsu feat. Rav - Fallen
Channel Tres - 6am
Synergy - Girlpower
The Luka State - More Than This
Black Honey - Heavy
結束バンド (Kessoku Band) - ギターと孤独と蒼い惑星
Creeper - Ghost Brigade
Brand Of Sacrifice - Exodus
Gina Birch - Wish I Was You
Thomas Headon - Georgia
MyGO!!!!! - Mayoi Uta「迷星叫」
Bishu - We Made It
B3N - Peter Pan
Matt Ox - TEENRAGER
Sofía Comas & Soleá Morente - Ay voz secreta
Leyla Blue - Jane Doe
Maruja - Thunder
Rx Papi - Kiss The Ring (First Day Out)
38 Spesh, Harry Fraud, Benny The Butcher & Ransom - Band of Brothers
Alan Walker feat. Sophie Simmons - Lovesick
Babyfather - 1471
Invent, Animate - Elysium
More Eaze - Perfume / Sad
Kylie Odetta - Somebody
Lisasinson - Últimamente
SeptembersRich - Geek High
Mihályfi Luca - Rendben
Kiss Kevin - Esőben
Alex Anwandter - Maricoteca
Astrokidjay - Hell & Back
PGF Nuk - Shut Up
Scott James - A Lot Left to Learn
Tom Bandy & The Eternal Summer Break - I'm So Tired
Jackson Wang - Fire to the Fuse
Tiwa Savage - Loaded
GloRilla - Nut Quick
Pasocom Music Club - Sign
SEWERQUINN - stuck in g’loss
Shiva - Take 4
Da$h - TOMAHAWK
Egreen - Via Panisperna
Thalía - Psycho Bitch

Notable Projects:
Envy - Seimei EP
Matt Watson - SEE YOU THERE
Loli In Early 20s - Anxious Worlds
Violet Mirrors - You Won't Survive Just As The World Told Me So EP
More Eaze - Strawberry Season
Young Oceans - Subjects in Motion
Yssn Nino - TEXT UR MOM THIS
MANISDRON - Body Of Void
In Flames - Foregone Pt. 2 EP
Highlight - After Sunset EP
Keith Ape - Ape Into Space EP
NATURE - NATURE WORLD : CODE W
Morabeza Tobacco - Shadow of the Cherry
Vitskär Süden - The Faceless King
Codespeaker - Codespeaker
Mist Of Misery - Severance
KIDZ - Mike Tyson Jab
The Hanged Man - Tear It All
Nansarunai - Ruins of the Moonlight Temple
Brothertiger - Brothertiger
SOULBYSEL - SOULBYSEL Compilation 03
Joshua Idehen - Hold Up Your Chin EP
Dramamine - Wind & Sand
ANOTR - The Reset
Gold Dust - The Late Great Gold Dust
Lolahol - Go EP
Starfield - Confluence of Two Stars
18days - 日が続く m e l i s s a
Grice - Polarchoral
Coma_Cose - Un Meraviglioso Modo Di Salvarsi
Minan - Dress Down EP
Kainalu - Ginseng Hourglass
Mac Declos & Anetha - Hard work always pays off
Village Of The Sun - First Light
Tre Tre - Tre's Symphony EP
nishith - transition period EP
ABTB - iii
May J. - Bittersweet Song Covers
Relaxxity - ｄｏｗｎ ｔｈｅ ｒｏａｄ EP
P.A. Dre - Pillmatic (The Album)
Louise Attaque - Planète Terre
Mujo & Hakone - Moshiri River EP
Alliyah Enyo - Echo's Disintegration
Dave Brons - Return to Arda
John Also Bennett - Out there in the middle of nowhere
Jonathan Scherk - Toon!
Tony Shhnow - Shadowbanned
ChuggaBoom - Death Pledge
NINE.i - NINE.i The 2nd Mini Album
IMMortal - As the Last Creatures Live, they Realize Their Purpose
Evvy Shark - MENTHOL
Snails - Helix
The Last Whole Earth Catalog - There It Isn't
vi a. - Drifted in the punt, late in the backwater
Coileight - untitled [​[​tape three​]​]
Ogof - A True Case of Evil
Indignu - adeus
Seahawks - Infinite Echo
Ulfuls - Tanoshii Oshigoto Aikokai
Hidden Renaissance - ODD GODS
Lilly, Etc. - binding stars, and sunshower
Gleb Kolyadin - the Outland
Phiik & DURO - Chainlink EP
Scott Ferox - Alone Pavement EP
Caelan - my cold and abstract memoirs EP
Самое Большое Простое Число - Ничего больше нет
Arovane & Taylor Deupree - Skal_Ghost
Nuno Lanhoso - Mitos E Nicolaus
McChakra - FLOWERS THROWN EP
PANIC! - Panic EP
Benjike - break
Dream.Corp - iVirtual SoundScape
Jak3 - tied up in GOD'S hands
One Be Lo - Songs of Songs
Kaval - Dream Odyssey EP
Unwoman - Music to Snuggle Your Old Lady To EP
Awon - Seven Pt. III
Scvtterbrvin - A Nightmare On Beat Street
Baby Pantera - NONCHALANT
Icemop - dizzy
Volunteer Department - Clean Living EP
Rpg'97 - Demo Oto​ñ​o '22 EP
柏林护士（Berlin Psycho Nurses - Software Hellhole EP
Ziyiz - Pattern Factory Method EP
Ryona Hime - Das Elfen Leid EP
Kim Jonghyeon - Meridiem EP
Cailn - The Essence of Ruthlessness EP
Knowsum - Midnight Special EP
Minuit Machine - 24
Flexible Fire - Malva EP
Tramhaus - Rotterdam EP
Chace - Belated Suffocation
Atrice - Backrooms EP
Doeboi909 - NiNE LIVES
Debbie IT - Cianuro EP
Tim Reaper - Submerged Into Darkness EP
ElevenSEVENTY - sugar-free
Froggy - Froggy
The Butterfly Strawberry - Jiafei The Album EP

[jjunie]

and here I am wondering how taylor didn't try to block Drake in billboard 200 too... maybe she hasn't enough copies in stock since she literally sold almost 2m copies in 2 weeks and idk how many copies they printed...

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Nov 11, 2022 11:46:54 GMT -5 jjunie said:

and here I am wondering how taylor didn't try to block Drake in billboard 200 too... maybe she hasn't enough copies in stock since she literally sold almost 2m copies in 2 weeks and idk how many copies they printed...

Shifting an extra 140,000 albums is a little harder than moving an extra 140,000 digital singles. Even for Taylor. lol

[iHype.]

Ahh the usual “this has been a thing! Artists have always done shady things. Therefore you shouldn’t feel any way or bother to even share a comment on someone doing shady things!” gaslighting lmao.

[Ling-Ling]

Nov 11, 2022 11:51:53 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Ahh the usual “this has been a thing! People always did shady things. Therefore you shouldn’t feel any way or bother to even share a comment on someone doing shady things!” gaslighting lmao.

First we have people trying to bring in the patriarchy. Now gaslighting? LMAO. Good God.

[iHype.]

Nov 11, 2022 11:56:09 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Nov 11, 2022 11:51:53 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Ahh the usual “this has been a thing! People always did shady things. Therefore you shouldn’t feel any way or bother to even share a comment on someone doing shady things!” gaslighting lmao.

First we have people trying to bring in the patriarchy. Now gaslighting? LMAO. Good God.

Obviously this is just charts, but trying to minimize people complaining about something by saying “well it’s always been done!”… is pretty dumb (it doesn’t offer any perspective to the issue), and only is just trying to make someone feel discouraged to point out a flaw in a system.

What’s hard to understand?

[jenglisbe]

Nov 11, 2022 11:56:09 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Nov 11, 2022 11:51:53 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Ahh the usual “this has been a thing! People always did shady things. Therefore you shouldn’t feel any way or bother to even share a comment on someone doing shady things!” gaslighting lmao.

First we have people trying to bring in the patriarchy. Now gaslighting? LMAO. Good God.

Lol I did just see Swift stans on Twitter posting about this being about the patriarchy; what did I miss? Lol. How is Swift pulling out schemes in her third week to topple a Drake song in its first week about the patriarchy? I'm not saying sexism and such don't exist, of course, just not seeing how they view this specific Hot 100 race as being about the patriarchy.

I know someone here said we were going over the top with the psychoanalyzing, but I think all of this shows we definitely were/are not. There is a lot at play here, and it truly is fascinating to me.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Nov 11, 2022 12:10:56 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Nov 11, 2022 11:56:09 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

First we have people trying to bring in the patriarchy. Now gaslighting? LMAO. Good God.

Lol I did just see Swift stans on Twitter posting about this being about the patriarchy; what did I miss? Lol. How is Swift pulling out schemes in her third week to topple a Drake song in its first week about the patriarchy? I'm not saying sexism and such don't exist, of course, just not seeing how they view this specific Hot 100 race as being about the patriarchy.

Referring to anything on stan twitter and involving it in a legitimate discussion with (hopefully logical people) does nothing other than throw the discussion off course. There isn’t even a point in talking about stans on Twitter.

[rideordie]

As much as I want Taylor to snatch that no.1, billboard needs to find other ways to limit the impact of these remixes cuz it’s kind of ridiculous. Their rule change did absolutely nothing.

[iHype.]

The issue is moreso with digital sales than it is with remixes.

None of these remixes would’ve been able to get notable streaming or airplay points similar to sales points.

I also want to point out to y’all that artists are releasing “alternate covers”, instrumentals, etc on web stores.

Also all her new versions are webstore exclusives because you can repeatedly make multiple purchases there and do not need an account. She doesn’t put them on iTunes because once you purchase something from there it forbids an account from re-purchasing something again.

It also makes you realize that web stores being allowed to have purchases count from people who do not have accounts is sketchy in itself. Billboard requires all streaming services (even YouTube) to only submit streams when someone is logged into an account, and all other digital sales vendors (iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, etc) require you to make an account to buy music on their platforms.

Regardless, weighing down digital sales more would just stop these attempts. An artist isn’t going to bother releasing 5 versions if they now need 150K sales to close a gap instead of 50K sales.

All hits are now normally selling 1-5K a week, so as for them, having sales contribute like 1 point instead of 3 points to their total would make absolutely no difference. It would only deter sales dependent songs which in 2022 are always mass buying fueled at this point.

[Ling-Ling]

Nov 11, 2022 11:58:01 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Nov 11, 2022 11:56:09 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

First we have people trying to bring in the patriarchy. Now gaslighting? LMAO. Good God.

Obviously this is just charts, but trying to minimize people complaining about something by saying “well it’s always been done!”… is pretty dumb (it doesn’t offer any perspective to the issue), and only is just trying to make someone feel discouraged to point out a flaw in a system.

What’s hard to understand?

Calling my perspective dumb and saying it doesn't move the discussion forward to shut me down... is such a gaslighting thing to do. See what I did there?

Stating history and facts is not gaslighting. Me bringing up the way the charts have been ran for thirty plus years is to literally add perspective to the discussion. And I doubt anyone in here is so discouraged by my innocuous post that they can't speak up or disagree with me on their own accord.

But I appreciate your candor!

[Music Fan]

Nov 11, 2022 7:32:36 GMT -5 M5AGTS said:

Nov 11, 2022 1:18:28 GMT -5 Music Fan said:

Taylor is worse than BTS, now. I said it. Fight me if you want, idc.

Imo, the only thing worse about this situation is that Anti Hero is already massive without the separate versions. She doesn't need to do all this, but she's doing it anyway, which is frustrating.

That's part of the reason why I think this situation is worse.

1. BTS released (3?) remixes knowing their fans would eat them up in hopes of being #1. But, the scheming wasn't, as far as I'm aware, led by BTS or their team. The fans just took that and ran with it.
2. There's no need for Taylor do be doing this. Of course, she's in her right to do as she pleases. She's strategically releasing multiple versions. I don't have count but I know it's at least 5. She already had the #1 spot. I really do think it's inconsiderate of her hard core fans who will go out and spend more on these tracks. Sure, $1.29 isn't much -- but buying the album, the vinyls, and the tracks adds up. Again, each individual person can buy whtever they want and spend their money how they see fit, but it's very manipulative. I don't know if Taylor has an insecurity problem or what is behind this push to #1 (when it likely would have returned to #1 next week). It really just rubs me the wrong way.


On the other hand, I just heard Anti-Hero for the first time. I get why it went #1.