Marooned@Midnight
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Post by Marooned@Midnight on Jun 17, 2024 19:37:44 GMT -5
1. That tweet is amazing and everyone needs to watch that girl preaching straight TRUTH.
2. I heard MBOBHFT on the radio today and I think it has more hit potential than either DB or ICDIWABH. A true sonic successor to AH.
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Soundcl🕤ck
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Post by Soundcl🕤ck on Jun 17, 2024 20:51:44 GMT -5
talking from my perspective, I know she's currently the biggest artist, that her legacy will last for a looooong time, that her peers can't touch her rn, and everything...but that's the thing for me, she has nothing left to prove, and yet she's there chasing some irrelevant (not for her lol) records and weeks at #1 with 20 different variants, while the album itself is a huge success without it - she would've been #1 for every week except for Billie's.
IDK, there's something about the greed of powerful people that doesn't sit right with me, which is solely my problem, and the reason (among other things) why she is a billionaire and I'm not lol. Not to mention that I'm a chart watcher and it's so funny and awkward seeing some of those my album did this, my song did that when I know the real story behind it. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with my opinion on this topic, so I will try to avoid it as much as possible. ___ also, totally agree with Marooned's statement about MBOBHFT, it's a bopppp, one of my fave TTPD songs, top 3 definitely.
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Hefty Hanna
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Jun 17, 2024 21:24:28 GMT -5
MBOBHFT is the hit of the album and I don’t get how it seems like others aren’t seeing it.
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Post by ificanthaveyou on Jun 18, 2024 4:17:27 GMT -5
Can I get an amen?!! That's the thing a lot of folks I'm finding are having a hard time grappling the concept of: understanding Taylor has no peers in the current mainstream commercial business and they're comparing her strategies to that of artists who aren't on her level in any capacity (commercially speaking). There are ZERO other artists who have her pull commercially. None. And this is an artist 17 years into her career mind you. That in context, to me, shows even more why she should be savoring and grasping for every bit of success she can at this point because this height won't be reached again and it's likely as successful as she's ever going to be so why NOT maximize it? She's never once said success wasn't important to her. Hell, if anything she's made it clear her success helps validate her "goodness", so it may be even more important to her than most, right or wrong. In the last few years she blown right past her contemporaries and into the stratosphere and people, can't, stand it. Mainly because they view her as "undeserving" and are hyper-critical of her success, given its magnitude, acting as if it was just given to her on a silver platter or on the back of white privilege and not by her own merit. No, she spent decades (and even her youth) ruthlessly pining toward a dream of being the biggest star she could be. Most artists, let alone people, would buckle under the intense schedule, microscope, and lense she operates routinely under and never would have had the stamina to do the work it took to get here. Very few people are genuinely built for stardom at this level and even fewer people ever achieve it. People just have a hard time stomaching it because they feel her voice isn't conducive to this level of popularity (because falsely most seem to only see validity in vocal range and don't understand that an artist is more than a singer, is more than a voice) or they don't particularly care for her style of music/image (which in most cases I've found boils down to Taylor not being edgy or "cool" enough for some to authenticate her actual talent). It's not cool to make music kids can also enjoy. It's not cool to care about your success. It's not edgy to be covered and clothed in a world of raunchy lyrics and imagery (of which I myself am a fan, but nevertheless). At the end of the day society LOVES to tear whoever we build up, right back to the ground, so now we're seeing people literally searching, rummaging, needlessly picking through her achievements and actions looking for any and every reason to drag her name and diminish her accomplishments as they have done so many before. Unfortunately for them, with a person like Taylor she doesn't have a sordid history or a prison record so they have to result to petty insinuations about her character, of which they know nothing about, utilize her skin color to make sweeping generalizations or unfounded defamatory remarks ("Aryian Princess"), or twist traditionally good qualities (hard work ethic, creativity, preparedness, ingenuity, determination etc) she possesses and twist it into something horrible and negative. It's all absurd and exhausting. Instead of seeing this woman, in all she has accomplished, and celebrating that for the achievement it is, they'd much rather have her humbled and torn back down to a level they feel comfortable with. Too bad for them. This!!! Just this! Suck it haters!
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Post by ificanthaveyou on Jun 18, 2024 4:20:18 GMT -5
1. That tweet is amazing and everyone needs to watch that girl preaching straight TRUTH. 2. I heard MBOBHFT on the radio today and I think it has more hit potential than either DB or ICDIWABH. A true sonic successor to AH. DB is the true Summer bop that we all need and deserve. Nothing touches that on the album. It’s fresh and chill in the same way Delicate was. I think it could do very well with the GP. Plus we are going to get Reputation (TV) soon so I rather her contrast DB with a darker Reputation single.
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Post by livelikedying111 on Jun 18, 2024 9:07:37 GMT -5
Regarding the people who want Taylor to step down and give others a chance at being #1 (what kind of participation trophy ass mentality is that lmfao), this makes some incredible points. Meanwhile, I was wrong about the Carole King record. Tapestry spent 15 consecutive weeks at #1, but not from its debut week onwards. In fact, only two female albums in history have debuted at #1 and stayed for eight weeks: In one word: TayLegend. Her power is undeniable. I went to her second show in Lisbon and even though I don't like TTPD, she made WAOOLM get stuck in my head and randomly state "but daddy, I love him". LOL. Those 3.5 hours of show went by so fast... she truly is a legend. No disrespect to any other artist, but they don't reach her level.
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Taylor.
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Post by Taylor. on Jun 18, 2024 9:42:34 GMT -5
MBOBHFT is the hit of the album and I don’t get how it seems like others aren’t seeing it. Should have been the first single and I'll die on that hill. "Oh, here we go again" being the first thing people heard from the album? Iconic. Also let me put you on this remix if you haven't heard it. https%3A//soundcloud.com/majorvibes/my-boy-major-vibes-version
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Hefty Hanna
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Jun 18, 2024 9:52:23 GMT -5
MBOBHFT is the hit of the album and I don’t get how it seems like others aren’t seeing it. Should have been the first single and I'll die on that hill. "Oh, here we go again" being the first thing people heard from the album? Iconic. Also let me put you on this remix if you haven't heard it. https%3A//soundcloud.com/majorvibes/my-boy-major-vibes-versionI haven’t but it’s major thanks king xo
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Active Aggressive
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Post by Active Aggressive on Jun 18, 2024 10:25:01 GMT -5
Not into that remix AT. ALL. There are no dynamics when the chorus drops - it just stays on that flat, generic beat. Doesn't fit the song whatsoever. As for the song itself, it has definitely grown on me, but I prefer the more chill songs on TTPD like Fortnight, Down Bad, Guilty As Sin, and Fresh Out The Slammer. My Boy would make a good single though.
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Dylan :)
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Post by Dylan :) on Jun 18, 2024 10:58:59 GMT -5
That song has grown on me a lot, as well as But Daddy I Love Him. So High School is my current favourite
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Rhythm Nation
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Post by Rhythm Nation on Jun 18, 2024 14:03:05 GMT -5
Sign me up to the MBOBHFT fan club! Such a great tune.
As far as next single, I was team Down Bad but I’m starting to feel like f*ck it just release ICDIWABH and give the basic fans what they want…. a hit is a hit and I want the album to keep smashing.
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kamala 2024 truther
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Post by kamala 2024 truther on Jun 18, 2024 14:20:54 GMT -5
Heard “Fortnight” on the radio while out and about today…there’s something about the frequency of a radio broadcast that makes a song sound incredible, and this was no exception. I don’t think it should’ve been the lead however; I agree that should’ve been MBOBHFT. I’m team MBOBHFT for single #2 before circling back around to “Down Bad” as single #3. I really want “Down Bad” to be the smash hit that it deserves to be. I almost wanna say they should also try “Florida!!!” for UK radio specifically (Florence might be a big draw to their formats, idk) and if they wanted to try anything at country radio, purely for shits and giggles, I’d pick “Daddy.” (Or if they wanna draw from The Anthology, “The Bolter” would be a great choice as well.) By the time “Down Bad” is done at pop though, reputation (TV) is surely to be ready.
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HEADOFTHEPACK
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Post by HEADOFTHEPACK on Jun 18, 2024 14:48:49 GMT -5
Re. the twitter video yeah but ONCE AGAIN for me (at least) it's not about any of that. Speaking for myself.
Aligned that she has no commercial peers, totally. She's shown that time and time again.
Who is asking her to 'hand' someone a #1? Genuinely, where, who? She is purposefully releasing new versions to get another week at #1. She's going market specific. "Oh she's doing better and is at #1 again because she's better and the material is better and she's working harder" ... no it's because she is pumping out endless versions of an existing album. Why can't we just call a spade a spade?
That is truly my only issue. Can't speak for anyone else. If people can wax lyrical about her work ethic and maximizing her success in this moment, it's perfectly OK for others to call BS on the transparent tactics by which she chooses to do so. That is not tearing down someone's success. It's commentary on an action.
I truly don't understand why this has to become such a charged discussion about tearing a woman down. Like, genuinely mystified at this point. Maybe it's a reaction to the general discourse or stan twitter but I don't see any of these attacks that are getting such a reaction. Am I missing something?
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Jun 18, 2024 16:50:01 GMT -5
but that's the thing for me, she has nothing left to prove, and yet she's there chasing some irrelevant (not for her lol) records and weeks at #1 with 20 different variants, while the album itself is a huge success without it - she would've been #1 for every week except for Billie's. I touched on this on my last post, but I understand why she's going the extra mile to maximize her numbers/peaks at this point. Taylor knows that in every career, especially for a female pop star there is an inevitable decline past a certain age. Now she was sure with Lover that it was her last big "hurrah", commercially speaking, but then Folklore happened. She's one artist who is astutely aware of her status and all the logistics of her career. Given all this, I'm sure she knows she will never reach this height again, especially given I'm sure her success the last few years even stumped her, so she's trying to soak up as much as possible and make it as big as possible. She's never been an artist who played it "cool" and said numbers, charts, records don't mean anything to hear, she's insinuated in fact the opposite. I think it's really a personal goal for her to be the biggest artist she can possibly be, potentially the biggest female artist of all time and you don't get a title like that without working your ass off and stepping on toes along the way. Is it morally questionable and selfish? Absolutely. But she's a billionaire and all billionaires are unethical and selfish. Otherwise they wouldn't be billionaires. lol Plus with her winning every award under the sun, accomplishing pretty much every feat an artist can, I'm sure she's looking for new ways to best herself continuously. Billionaires, in particular, are always looking to oneup themselves. I truly don't understand why this has to become such a charged discussion about tearing a woman down. Like, genuinely mystified at this point. Maybe it's a reaction to the general discourse or stan twitter but I don't see any of these attacks that are getting such a reaction. Am I missing something? You clearly are missing a HUGE chunk of the picture. This discussion has went far beyond the confines of this forum and if you look at any of the discourse about this story or particularly Taylor in general on TikTok, across multiple platforms, through the commentary of multiple articles you would clearly see it isn't just people saying "oof, how mean of her to release variants!" It's people dragging her character to hell and back, people undermining her success, and people dismissing her talent while questioning her position using this incident in some cases to do so. It's ubiquitous. Now, for the discourse on this forum, the tired, tired variant discourse. Not liking a practice is fine. Disagreeing with a practice is fine. Going on and on every time she releases variants and maligning her as some villain for maximizing her success and profits in a business were artists are meant to do just that while actively ignoring any and every other artist who does the same, tells me that person is emotionally invested beyond merely disagreeing with her use of variants. That's fine too, but as you said let's call a spade a spade. If every commercial artist could release a variant and pad their album with an extra 20,000 copies do you think they and their label would pass that up for "ethical" reasons? Think long and hard about that. You can't tell me when artists are already releasing multiple variants they wouldn't utilize this practice too. I didn't see anyone huffing and puffing about Billie when she countered Taylor's variants with her own? No commentary of Olivia Rodrigo and her many variants. None of Kelly Clarkson's variants. Yet the discourse around Taylor is seething. A lot of folks aren't actually pissed about the variants themsleves. Their pissed Taylor has ability to shift a ton of variants and use it to her advantage and that she chooses to do so. They're pissed about her "taking" spots they feel she "doesn't deserve". When in actuality if she performed the best that week, even when it comes down to the last day of the week, even if it comes to releasing something to get there, she deserves the top spot. So really what people are pissed at, is given her power and ability, Taylor's lack of consideration for other artists or her "selfishness". And if we're taking it personal, since everyone seems to view this as some personal affront, with Billie and Charlie, both who have publicly maligned her in one way or another, why, WHY should she consider them when they didn't consider her? Personally, I think it's less about them and more about her own personal goals, but nevertheless. I have no personal issue with people calling Taylor selfish or greedy, because both are true and you don't become a billionaire without being both. What I take issue with is the bigger picture and all the people utilizing this one thing to make it seem as if she's some HORRIBLE person and acting as if Billie or Charlie are just mere innocent victims. None are victims. None are horrible people. Sure it's selfish (thought that went unsaid, but I guess it's a revelation). Critique the usage of variants all day long, but if your actual issue is variants then don't just save that discourse and rage for Taylor and then take your complaints up with Billboard.
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HEADOFTHEPACK
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Post by HEADOFTHEPACK on Jun 18, 2024 17:49:19 GMT -5
Honestly this just isn't something I'm going to think long and hard about or go outside of the confines of this forum to spend time engaging with. I actually called Billie out for using the same tactic when she started dropping variants midweek, so I'll assume that comment is aimed at others.
I guess, as you say, given I'm clearly missing a huge chunk of the picture... I would very much like to be excluded from this narrative ;)
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Jun 18, 2024 18:48:06 GMT -5
Imagine if she just said fuck it and made Who’s afraid of little old me the next single with a mini film for a music video and some big easter egg announcement at the end or something
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Jun 18, 2024 18:56:44 GMT -5
Honestly this just isn't something I'm going to think long and hard about or go outside of the confines of this forum to spend time engaging with. Well considering you put yourself directly into the middle of the discussion I was just responding to what you wrote. On a side note: You don't have to engage with outside discourse at all to be aware of it. Nor does one have to think "long and hard about it" to have an opinion, at least I don't, but everyone's different. It wasn't directed at any one person in particular or I would have said so. It's just absolutely something I've noticed on this forum. Kudos to you, you were probably one of the very, very select few who don't only complain when Taylor does it.
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Soundcl🕤ck
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Post by Soundcl🕤ck on Jun 18, 2024 18:57:17 GMT -5
Who is asking her to 'hand' someone a #1? Genuinely, where, who? She is purposefully releasing new versions to get another week at #1. She's going market specific. "Oh she's doing better and is at #1 again because she's better and the material is better and she's working harder" ... no it's because she is pumping out endless versions of an existing album. Why can't we just call a spade a spade? that was my thought and I forgot to include it in my previous post. I don't know who exactly she is addressing in that video, but the comment "they have to earn it" kinda bothered me. I'm aware a lot of people hate seeing Taylor's success, with or without chart tactics and that's a different problem, but by that "step aside" I don't think (most) people wanted Taylor to pull her album from streaming platforms for a day or two, or to beg fans not to buy the album just so someone would've a chance at #1. Billboard allows countless variants, so both sides are technically right, Don't hate the player, hate the game or Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should, it's whatever at this point. but that's the thing for me, she has nothing left to prove, and yet she's there chasing some irrelevant (not for her lol) records and weeks at #1 with 20 different variants, while the album itself is a huge success without it - she would've been #1 for every week except for Billie's. I touched on this on my last post, but I understand why she's going the extra mile to maximize her numbers/peaks at this point. Taylor knows that in every career, especially for a female pop star there is an inevitable decline past a certain age. Now she was sure with Lover that it was her last big "hurrah", commercially speaking, but then Folklore happened. She's one artist who is astutely aware of her status and all the logistics of her career. Given all this, I'm sure she knows she will never reach this height again, especially given I'm sure her success the last few years even stumped her, so she's trying to soak up as much as possible and make it as big as possible. She's never been an artist who played it "cool" and said numbers, charts, records don't mean anything to hear, she's insinuated in fact the opposite. I think it's really a personal goal for her to be the biggest artist she can possibly be, potentially the biggest female artist of all time and you don't get a title like that without working your ass off and stepping on toes along the way. Is it morally questionable and selfish? Absolutely. But she's a billionaire and all billionaires are unethical and selfish. Otherwise they wouldn't be billionaires. lol I totally get that, none of us are in her position, so we can't know how we would behave. Ironically, as a chart geek myself, I can understand her intentions and pov, but at the same time I want everything to be organic and transparent, and that's why it doesn't feel right to me. But like I said before, totally my problem, not hers.
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Jun 18, 2024 19:11:42 GMT -5
I totally get that, none of us are in her position, so we can't know how we would behave. Ironically, as a chart geek myself, I can understand her intentions and pov, but at the same time I want everything to be organic and transparent, and that's why it doesn't feel right to me. But like I said before, totally my problem, not hers. Completely see where you are coming from and respect your position totally. I don't particularly love the way she's utilizing variants either to be perfectly honest as I have said many times before (as she doesn't need to and some will just use them to delegitimize her success as they're looking for any and every way to do so anyway), but I do understand why she could be. For me, if I set any personal feelings aside and look objectively, I see nothing wrong here as it's within rules and regulations/nothing illegal etc. If I remove objectivity and go personal, I still don't like the idea of her utilizing variants in this way as it does feel a bit selfish, but another part of me feels if this is just a personal jab at specifically Billie and Charlie after how they spoke of Taylor when she was only glowing of or to them, I don't blame her at all (still wrong of course, but I can understand it). There could be potentially many layers to this, or there could be none. Idk. At the very least it keeps charts interesting. Lol
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andrebra
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Post by andrebra on Jun 19, 2024 1:55:24 GMT -5
I truly don’t want to cause more drama with this and this will be my last point. How is releasing variants last minute that are made so that you can’t even get the most out of the product if you don’t buy the same material over and over again “earning it” and “working her ass off”? If anything, it’s the lazy way? Like I have never doubted her work ethic, and I would truly be fine with the extra attempts at staying at the top if I as a fan felt I was getting something valuable out of it! Lots here think she’s working harder than these other artists when in reality she is just better at utilizing her fans’ hungriness to her advantage. I will always respect an artist for promoting their work but give me something that I can enjoy (music videos, an all-in-one deluxe, different live performances, interviews, etc.) If anything, the rabidness of the fan base makes her think she can get away with minimal real promotion and I think that’s going to bite a lot of people in the ass when they realize that means less music videos, less late-night interviews, and more. I just think us as fans deserve more respect than that, but like I said that’s my last point and I don’t need the think-pieces about it, it’s just my opinion.
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Jun 19, 2024 3:50:19 GMT -5
I truly don’t want to cause more drama with this and this will be my last point. How is releasing variants last minute that are made so that you can’t even get the most out of the product if you don’t buy the same material over and over again “earning it” and “working her ass off”? I think it's less about the notion Taylor releasing variants constitutes her "working her ass off" and more about the idea she had to work her ass off for 2 decades in order to reach the point where she can drop a random variant on a Saturday and secure a 20k+ net bump before Monday to even utilize variants the way she can. No other artist could release variants like her and recieve the response they do because no other artist has built the supremely behemoth and dedicated fanbase she has cultivated. Many artists could release 200 variants of their music and they still wouldn't be met with a fraction of her sales. That level of influence took dedication, hard work and most certainly had to be earned.
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Post by suburbandreams on Jun 19, 2024 3:54:52 GMT -5
TTPD has been the top streamed album in the USA every single week since it's release.
With the gamed pure units removed, TTPD would still have been #1 for every single week.
Her variants just sell better than her competitors since she has more demand. Her competitors play the game just not as well.
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Jun 19, 2024 4:12:07 GMT -5
MBOBHFT is the hit of the album and I don’t get how it seems like others aren’t seeing it. Yes! I've been arguing similar since the beginning. When you think of radio/single you really need a song that's instant and catchy: an earworm. "Fortnight" is more of a grower. I think since the release I naturally gravitated to other songs on the album more, but it's no question "MBOBHFT" is one of the few radio-ready cuts on TTPD. The only hesitation I have is it is a bit generic for Taylor, but hell, if "Karma" can hit big, I don't see why it couldn't.
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born
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Post by born on Jun 19, 2024 6:56:10 GMT -5
"My Boy Only Breaks His Favorite Toys" is a total bop and I could definitely imagine it on the radio. My biggest issue with it is that the production sounds like something I would make a bit undercooked, like it was Jack's first composition ever, instead of his 350th.
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Choco
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Post by Choco on Jun 19, 2024 7:05:49 GMT -5
TTPD has been the top streamed album in the USA every single week since it's release. With the gamed pure units removed, TTPD would still have been #1 for every single week. Her variants just sell better than her competitors since she has more demand. Her competitors play the game just not as well. It wouldn't have remained #1 on Billie's debut week. It had a massive surge in pure sales that week. Also nobody's denying she's the one that can get the most people to engage with countless versions. It's part of the point: she doesn't actually need the gimmicks to be the #1 seller.
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ampersand
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Post by ampersand on Jun 19, 2024 7:12:13 GMT -5
MBOBHFT is the hit of the album and I don’t get how it seems like others aren’t seeing it. Should have been the first single and I'll die on that hill. "Oh, here we go again" being the first thing people heard from the album? Iconic. Also let me put you on this remix if you haven't heard it. https%3A//soundcloud.com/majorvibes/my-boy-major-vibes-versionThis remix is fire. 🔥🔥
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Post by suburbandreams on Jun 19, 2024 9:00:08 GMT -5
TTPD has been the top streamed album in the USA every single week since it's release. With the gamed pure units removed, TTPD would still have been #1 for every single week. Her variants just sell better than her competitors since she has more demand. Her competitors play the game just not as well. It wouldn't have remained #1 on Billie's debut week. It had a massive surge in pure sales that week. Also nobody's denying she's the one that can get the most people to engage with countless versions. It's part of the point: she doesn't actually need the gimmicks to be the #1 seller. TTPD still outstreamed Billie's album on release week. Literally, if pure sales no longer counted for the chart, Taylor would have had the #1 over Billie. Same for Charlie in the UK. Billie dropped 30 something variants and dropped extra ones on release week to try to get the #1 but it wasn't enough. An artist continuing to promote their new album is perfectly normal. Billie choose to release in a competitive chart week instead of either moving up or delaying her album like Taylor has done in the past. Taylor, Billie, Charli, etc are all gaming the same system. Using variants to juice sales. Nothing wrong with Taylor ensuring that the actually most streamed album keeps the #1.
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clsvltn
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Post by clsvltn on Jun 19, 2024 9:23:24 GMT -5
Regarding weeks at #1, here are some upcoming notable releases - not saying they all will be #1 or even close but just some notable/popular artists.
June 28 - Camila Cabello, Megan Thee Stallion
July 5 - Eminem (RUMORED), Zach Bryan (RUMORED)
July 12 - Hardy
July 19 - Stray Kids
July 26 - Ice Spice
August 16 - Post Malone
August 23 - Sabrina Carpenter, Lainey Wilson, Thomas Rhett
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Choco
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Post by Choco on Jun 19, 2024 9:33:02 GMT -5
It wouldn't have remained #1 on Billie's debut week. It had a massive surge in pure sales that week. Also nobody's denying she's the one that can get the most people to engage with countless versions. It's part of the point: she doesn't actually need the gimmicks to be the #1 seller. TTPD still outstreamed Billie's album on release week. Literally, if pure sales no longer counted for the chart, Taylor would have had the #1 over Billie. Same for Charlie in the UK. Billie dropped 30 something variants and dropped extra ones on release week to try to get the #1 but it wasn't enough. An artist continuing to promote their new album is perfectly normal. Billie choose to release in a competitive chart week instead of either moving up or delaying her album like Taylor has done in the past. Taylor, Billie, Charli, etc are all gaming the same system. Using variants to juice sales. Nothing wrong with Taylor ensuring that the actually most streamed album keeps the #1. Why would you remove pure sales from the chart? The point is it wouldn't have gotten the #1 that week without extra versions, not that she needed to pull out older original versions from sales as well lol. You said she didn't need versions in any week and she certainly did that week (as she did on the UK vs Charli this past chart week), no one is arguing she lost the #1 most streamed album. It's the only reason she did a 31 song album anyways, she took a page out of the Morgan Wallen Dangerous book. As for the rest of your post it's been discussed into exhaustion already and nobody is making any new interesting points. Either you're OK or you're annoyed with it and it's fine either way, it's clear Taylor will continue to do it until the fanbase finally stops buying, good for her.
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Hefty Hanna
Diamond Member
a prettier jesus
Joined: August 2007
Posts: 20,452
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Jun 19, 2024 9:48:42 GMT -5
This conversation is exhausting tbh can we please move on
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