BEYONCÉ: 'COWBOY CARTER' Era

[wavey.]

you know you that bxtch when you cause all this conversation🔥🔥

She's just elevated her career at a steady pace and it's been amazing to witness and experience it in real time.

[#LisaRinna]

Y'all trying to put her in a box and she's shown y'all she wants to step out of said box multiple times already. Stop.

[Push The Button]

I’m not crazy about the songs but I am crazy about another tour! She’s such a dynamic performer that she can sell me anything on stage. Bring it on Bey!

[shayonce]

[Ling-Ling]

Feb 12, 2024 17:51:47 GMT -5 dbhmr said:

This really brings out my deeply unpopular take on Renaissance, which I liked and was slick and polished and euphoric, but also felt like her just...trying something on. There was something inauthentic and, worse, cynical about her hitching a ride onto ballroom culture as it was peaking in popularity just to the left of mainstream. She nailed every aspect of it enough that people ate it up without a second thought, but people treated it as some culmination of gifts to the Queer Community as if that's ever really been a part of her music or vibe intentionally rather than just obviously incidentally.

These two country songs are that but even more so. It feels like dress up in a way that even "Daddy Lessons" didn't, which is stronger than either of these, even if "16 Carriages" is a lovely song. There's a hollowness to them that I initially felt with Renaissance before I tucked that opinion away so I could enjoy the moment with the masses.

Maybe it doesn't matter, and being a vessel for centering blackness on these genres is the project in and of itself. It feels, idk, more self-serving than that though, in spite of what the Twitter army and thread think pieces would want me to believe.

I think there's a discussion to be had here. I admittedly find her infuriating at times. I understand why she approaches her career the way she does, but she's taken it to such ridiculous extremes. There's a certain coldness and unapproachability to Beyoncé. And it can and does bleed into her work, no matter how personal it may be. I didn't find Act I cynical necessarily, but it did feel very calculated and studied. The same way this does. If B'Day hadn't been such an unapologetically campy/faggy album in it's sound and imagery, I think Act I might have thrown me off more. But her unwillingness to come down to planet Earth and humanize her music and image can be off-putting. For all the varied discussions around the Grammy's, I think this is the real reason she hasn't nabbed AOTY.

[HEADOFTHEPACK]

Feb 13, 2024 9:25:57 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Feb 12, 2024 17:51:47 GMT -5 dbhmr said:

This really brings out my deeply unpopular take on Renaissance, which I liked and was slick and polished and euphoric, but also felt like her just...trying something on. There was something inauthentic and, worse, cynical about her hitching a ride onto ballroom culture as it was peaking in popularity just to the left of mainstream. She nailed every aspect of it enough that people ate it up without a second thought, but people treated it as some culmination of gifts to the Queer Community as if that's ever really been a part of her music or vibe intentionally rather than just obviously incidentally.

These two country songs are that but even more so. It feels like dress up in a way that even "Daddy Lessons" didn't, which is stronger than either of these, even if "16 Carriages" is a lovely song. There's a hollowness to them that I initially felt with Renaissance before I tucked that opinion away so I could enjoy the moment with the masses.

Maybe it doesn't matter, and being a vessel for centering blackness on these genres is the project in and of itself. It feels, idk, more self-serving than that though, in spite of what the Twitter army and thread think pieces would want me to believe.

I think there's a discussion to be had here. I admittedly find her infuriating at times. I understand why she approaches her career the way she does, but she's taken it to such ridiculous extremes. There's a certain coldness and unapproachability to Beyoncé. And it can and does bleed into her work, no matter how personal it may be. I didn't find Act I cynical necessarily, but it did feel very calculated and studied. The same way this does. If B'Day hadn't been such an unapologetically campy/faggy album in it's sound and imagery, I think Act I might have thrown me off more. But her unwillingness to come down to planet Earth and humanize her music and image can be off-putting. For all the varied discussions around the Grammy's, I think this is the real reason she hasn't nabbed AOTY.

See there's something I find attractive about how she does this when we're in an era where everyone is more approachable/accessible because of social media. I appreciate that she's giving very little outside of the music and performance. I understand the 'trying something on' comment and I'm not claiming that house/ballroom is her natural space, but I don't think I agree when the material is as good as Renaissance. I'd expect something lazier and less thought out/well-researched if she was just trying it on. Remains to be seen for act ii of course.

[Ivy Leegue™]

The conversation around Beyonce these days is...illuminating and interesting, to say the very least.

[Ling-Ling]

Feb 13, 2024 11:29:01 GMT -5 HEADOFTHEPACK said:

Feb 13, 2024 9:25:57 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

I think there's a discussion to be had here. I admittedly find her infuriating at times. I understand why she approaches her career the way she does, but she's taken it to such ridiculous extremes. There's a certain coldness and unapproachability to Beyoncé. And it can and does bleed into her work, no matter how personal it may be. I didn't find Act I cynical necessarily, but it did feel very calculated and studied. The same way this does. If B'Day hadn't been such an unapologetically campy/faggy album in it's sound and imagery, I think Act I might have thrown me off more. But her unwillingness to come down to planet Earth and humanize her music and image can be off-putting. For all the varied discussions around the Grammy's, I think this is the real reason she hasn't nabbed AOTY.

See there's something I find attractive about how she does this when we're in an era where everyone is more approachable/accessible because of social media. I appreciate that she's giving very little outside of the music and performance. I understand the 'trying something on' comment and I'm not claiming that house/ballroom is her natural space, but I don't think I agree when the material is as good as Renaissance. I'd expect something lazier and less thought out/well-researched if she was just trying it on. Remains to be seen for act ii of course.

Beyoncé was definitely the smartest woman in the room in terms of seeing the impending doom of social media. Not only the dangers of engagement (how many pop stars have we seen collapse under that pressure), but also in terms of maintaining a sense of mystery that the stars before her had. But I think she's taken it to such an extreme she's borderline stripped the human element from her music and persona. I don't expect her to be on live Doja or Nicki style acting a mess. But at the very least she could serve an Adele level of engagement. I think it would work wonders for her, her music and the perception of her music. We get these immaculately manicured albums (albums I do love FYI), but the presentation feels increasingly cold and disconnected to me. "16 Carriages" for instance is a very pretty song with personal lyrics, but once again, I feel like Beyoncé is kinda removed from it somehow?

[Daenerys]

Feb 12, 2024 21:22:39 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Feb 12, 2024 16:56:40 GMT -5 Daenerys said:

I don't agree with this at all. One dominant quality of country music is storytelling, and "16 Carriages" in particular contains clear storytelling (and even more specifically country music has plenty of songs about growing up and leaving home and such, and "16" fits right in with those songs). Additionally, traditional country foregrounds instruments like the banjo and steel guitar. Both of these new Beyonce songs do that; correct me if I'm wrong, but going back to "16" it makes clear use of steel guitar. I would agree that to some degree Beyonce is defying 'contemporary country,' but that's because the contemporary country that you hear on country radio has veered quite far from traditional country. Having said that, it's really a full circle thing because a lot of current country has plenty of white male country singers making lame attempts at pseudo-rap, so one could also see it as Beyonce just reclaiming that element for Black singers.

I feel like we are saying the same things just in different ways, so I won't go into a full-length response, but I'll say a lot of the elements that you are describing just don't really exist in most contemporary country music that is receiving play. The story-telling pieces that you're talking about has in many ways drifted out of Country music alongside the 90's and 00's and those core elements seem to exist in what we'd now term as indie/alternative/singer song-writer territory like what you'd have seen in Norah Jones and Kacey Musgraves most recent albums. A lot of what you're describing is the space of the Lorde's, Lana's, and Taylor's of the contemporary world since the 2010's instead of living in contemporary Country music. The fact that Kacey Musgraves up and left the genre communicates that story clearly. My last point on this is the Country of today is not the Country of the Shania's, Dolly's, Martina's, and even Carrie's who used to find play more easily 20 or so years ago. Bro-country, Country Rap, and Country Rock is the default -- Jason Aldean, Morgan Wallens, Luke Combs, Sam Hunt, Florida Georgia Line, etc. is the Country of today. Beyonce's country music would be a subversion to a lot of that.  

Either way I think we're confusing the term 'Country' and what that means today versus decades ago. The country music of today is a lot different from the likes of Johnny Cash and even the blues, jazz, soul that black artists sang that inspired country music. They are completely separate, distinct, and different animals. 

[balletgirlmom]

Beyonce is a brilliant performer.  Her album will smash!

[popwizard]

Feb 13, 2024 9:25:57 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Feb 12, 2024 17:51:47 GMT -5 dbhmr said:

This really brings out my deeply unpopular take on Renaissance, which I liked and was slick and polished and euphoric, but also felt like her just...trying something on. There was something inauthentic and, worse, cynical about her hitching a ride onto ballroom culture as it was peaking in popularity just to the left of mainstream. She nailed every aspect of it enough that people ate it up without a second thought, but people treated it as some culmination of gifts to the Queer Community as if that's ever really been a part of her music or vibe intentionally rather than just obviously incidentally.

These two country songs are that but even more so. It feels like dress up in a way that even "Daddy Lessons" didn't, which is stronger than either of these, even if "16 Carriages" is a lovely song. There's a hollowness to them that I initially felt with Renaissance before I tucked that opinion away so I could enjoy the moment with the masses.

Maybe it doesn't matter, and being a vessel for centering blackness on these genres is the project in and of itself. It feels, idk, more self-serving than that though, in spite of what the Twitter army and thread think pieces would want me to believe.

I think there's a discussion to be had here. I admittedly find her infuriating at times. I understand why she approaches her career the way she does, but she's taken it to such ridiculous extremes. There's a certain coldness and unapproachability to Beyoncé. And it can and does bleed into her work, no matter how personal it may be. I didn't find Act I cynical necessarily, but it did feel very calculated and studied. The same way this does. If B'Day hadn't been such an unapologetically campy/faggy album in it's sound and imagery, I think Act I might have thrown me off more. But her unwillingness to come down to planet Earth and humanize her music and image can be off-putting. For all the varied discussions around the Grammy's, I think this is the real reason she hasn't nabbed AOTY.

To sum it up, she’s incredibly contrived. Probably the most contrived artist and GOAT of all time. Her music doesn’t stand up to the greats or even popular artists of today. You can’t work your way to authenticity necessarily, which is why her stage shows are great but the music lacks. It’s something that comes naturally. Some of the best songs flow out of you and are written in minutes. It’s not carefully crafted and calculated like a stage show.

[Ling-Ling]

Nah, totally disagree. She serves quality. There are plenty of legendary artists that obsessively pored over every detail of their music. Beyoncé has shown she can succeed off the cuff and working very deliberately. I just find her delivery and promotional methods frustrating and feel they can undercut the music a tad.

[dbhmr]

I know my post can come off as a slight against Beyonce as a whole but I really mean specifically to this Renaissance album(s). Even her movie of the tour was so unbelievably impressive in terms of the painstaking effort she put into the vision. I think she's at her absolute best, and most untouchable, when it comes to her performance quality and the immaculateness of her brand. That has its pitfalls, but it doesn't mean she's worse off for it necessarily, it just means she pours more into one area and less into another.

If you take Beyonce, Taylor, and Adele--the three biggest music acts--they all have to sacrifice in one area. For Adele, it's visual commandment; for Taylor, it's music landscape innovation; and for Beyonce, it's a personal quality to her musical output. That's overly simplifying things to make a point, but the point isn't really that she herself is lacking, but that with this latest effort as a collective whole, I don't feel a very authentic connection to music that had to come out of her so much as something designed around an end goal. Not bad, not greedy, just impersonal to me.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Feb 13, 2024 18:18:45 GMT -5 dbhmr said:

I know my post can come off as a slight against Beyonce as a whole but I really mean specifically to this Renaissance album(s). Even her movie of the tour was so unbelievably impressive in terms of the painstaking effort she put into the vision. I think she's at her absolute best, and most untouchable, when it comes to her performance quality and the immaculateness of her brand. That has its pitfalls, but it doesn't mean she's worse off for it necessarily, it just means she pours more into one area and less into another.

If you take Beyonce, Taylor, and Adele--the three biggest music acts--they all have to sacrifice in one area. For Adele, it's visual commandment; for Taylor, it's music landscape innovation; and for Beyonce, it's a personal quality to her musical output. That's overly simplifying things to make a point, but the point isn't really that she herself is lacking, but that with this latest effort as a collective whole, I don't feel a very authentic connection to music that had to come out of her so much as something designed around an end goal. Not bad, not greedy, just impersonal to me.

The points you've mentioned are really interesting because while Renaissance is a fantastic album to me start to finish, there was something about it that I couldn't quite pinpoint that felt off a bit to me and I think that actually might be it. I also get that the album wasn't made with people like me in mind so maybe it's not something I was ever meant to get, yet what you're saying makes sense to me.

All that to say, the entire discussion here the last day or so has been fascinating. The thoughts about her move to becoming essentially inaccessible post-2013 are interesting too. In a time when some artists want to be more relatable and down to earth, some do the complete opposite and pull away from the public eye to have complete control over their narrative and I think doing that is something Beyonce has mastered and has worked really well in her favour. After 2013, her profile and celebrity reached untouchable heights.

And the country discussion - to me, there's "country music" the genre and "Country Music" the industry. The two aren't necessarily overlapping. The industry includes things like country radio and most country music awards. I doubt Beyonce had any intention or expectation of breaking into country radio or receiving attention from the devoted followers who live and breathe the landscape of country music the industry. But country music as a genre that goes back to the early 1900s, I think she's simply making a statement piece as part of the 3-part collective and she's tapping into it historically. She doesn't need to cater to a particular audience or try to win over radio formats or segments of the population. What'll be interesting is how 'industry' responds to it and how the response to that response rolls out.

[adamalterlago]

Love all of these deep conversations on this thread. Reminds me of why I love this board so much despite opinion or fandom. I truly think she made some of this music for this exact conversation. Even though I don’t usually enjoy most country music, I’m open to exploring music and this is coming from a brown skinned person who grew up surrounded by it in the Midwest. If Post Malone, Macklemore, Iggy A, MGK, Eminem, hell…T Swift, can find success from their skill and appreciation for what is considered black music by the masses, Beyonce can take drive down a predominantly white musical lane. Music is universal and I don’t think it’s inauthentic. I think it’s her flexing the various shades she has as a human being.

[Snowbeast]

My theory: Renaissance (l ll & lll) represents Beyoncé's claim to the black ancestry in three genres where black people were historically erased despite their pioneering contributions: House, Country, and Rock.

“Renaissance is a French word meaning “rebirth.” It refers to a period in European civilization that was marked by a revival of Classical learning and wisdom.“

[adamalterlago]

Feb 13, 2024 23:13:28 GMT -5 Snowbeast said:

My theory: Renaissance (l ll & lll) represents Beyoncé's claim to the black ancestry in three genres where black people were historically erased despite their pioneering contributions: House, Country, and Rock.

“Renaissance is a French word meaning “rebirth.” It refers to a period in European civilization that was marked by a revival of Classical learning and wisdom.“

Thank You. This is the thesis of this project and have no doubt it will go down in history as one of the biggest artists of all time taking major leaps outside of chasing charts (while still owning them) and making a profound statement.

[SHOOTER]

Per this interview with Robert Randolph, she’s still recording which is interesting since Renny was locked and loaded when it was announced. That would explain the lack of a pre-order, too. Makes me wonder if she was inspired to drop Act II ahead of schedule.

www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/beyonce-country-songs-players-robert-randolph-rhiannon-giddens-1234967138/amp/

[R.K.]

Feb 14, 2024 1:47:44 GMT -5 SHOOTER said:

Per this interview with Robert Randolph, she’s still recording which is interesting since Renny was locked and loaded when it was announced. That would explain the lack of a pre-order, too. Makes me wonder if she was inspired to drop Act II ahead of schedule.

www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/beyonce-country-songs-players-robert-randolph-rhiannon-giddens-1234967138/amp/

It could be for the next act or it could be additional vocals for mixing. I don’t think it’s a case of she’s “making the album” now ala Nicki Minaj, 16 Carriages was recorded in 2020. Also vast majority of first Act was recorded in 2020, yet My House was recorded a couple weeks before it was released, you just never know with her.

[jamatthews83]

That's good to hear, if some of it was recorded a while ago there's still hope for The McCrary Sisters to show up on backing vocals.

[toxicbaby]

Feb 12, 2024 17:56:58 GMT -5 avamaxstan said:

Feb 12, 2024 16:49:13 GMT -5 toxicbaby said:

Wow so giving an opinion in this forum opposite to what is praised here is like the end of the world? Interesting

Given that nearly your entire post history on this forum is negative commentary, I would’ve thought you’d learn to expect disagreement by now.

Seriously? Where is that?

[jenglisbe]

Feb 13, 2024 13:03:02 GMT -5 Daenerys said:

The story-telling pieces that you're talking about has in many ways drifted out of Country music alongside the 90's and 00's and those core elements seem to exist in what we'd now term as indie/alternative/singer song-writer territory like what you'd have seen in Norah Jones and Kacey Musgraves most recent albums.

I disagree as it's still common for country hits to be story songs. Luke Combs current single "Where the Wild Things Are" is a storytelling song, as was of course his cover of "Fast Car." Jelly Roll certainly has some story songs. I think something like Kane Brown's "Bury Me in Georgia" fits in that lane. "Tennessee Orange" is a story song. "Watermelon Moonshine" is a story song. Cody Johnson's "Til You Can't." There are other examples as well.

Anyway as has been said, I don't think anyone actually think Beyonce expects to be accepted by the current country music industry. In addition to there not being any Black women who can currently get airplay on country radio despite many of them making quality music, we saw how many of them reacted when she performed "Daddy Lessons" with The Chicks. My assumption is the same others have said; her intent is to draw attention to the fact that a lot of the history of country music is really just the history of music made by Black artists. The country music industry was taken over by white men long ago, and they have been very reluctant to let anyone else in.

[Snowbeast]

Feb 14, 2024 9:10:34 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Feb 13, 2024 13:03:02 GMT -5 Daenerys said:

.Anyway as has been said, I don't think anyone actually think Beyonce expects to be accepted by the current country music industry. In addition to there not being any Black women who can currently get airplay on country radio despite many of them making quality music, we saw how many of them reacted when she performed "Daddy Lessons" with The Chicks. My assumption is the same others have said; her intent is to draw attention to the fact that a lot of the history of country music is really just the history of music made by Black artists. The country music industry was taken over by white men long ago, and they have been very reluctant to let anyone else in.

Well, joining the CMA’s to sing the sole twang song on your album, which as a whole is centred around being unapologetically proud of being black and a glimpse into the lived experiences of many black women. accompanied by 3 other women who are blackballed/ have been blacklisted for nearly 20 years, was never going to be received WELL. And that was exactly why she did it, I think.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Feb 14, 2024 9:39:12 GMT -5 Snowbeast said:

Well, joining the CMA’s to sing the sole twang song on your album, which as a whole is centred around being unapologetically proud of being black and a glimpse into the lived experiences of many black women. accompanied by 3 other women who are blackballed/ have been blacklisted for nearly 20 years, was never going to be received WELL. And that was exactly why she did it, I think.

And while a lot of the focus was on Beyonce and the Chicks for being there, the real focus should have been on the response to them being there. I’ve lately been more conscious of the idea that when people speak about something, it says more about them than it does the thing they’re talking about. That’s definitely true with this and I think that’s what Act II will ultimately highlight. People can insist and demand that Beyonce (or whoever) isn’t country all they want, they’re speaking more of themselves than what they want people to hear.

[andrebra]

Wait so is the title for the album “Renaissance Act II” or will there be a new title announced later?

[SHOOTER]

Feb 14, 2024 12:36:26 GMT -5 andrebra said:

Wait so is the title for the album “Renaissance Act II” or will there be a new title announced later?

Act II until she says otherwise.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

I heard it might be called Act II: Enlightenment

[Mike]

I’m curious to see how this era will go. Lots of people were asking for Dance/House Beyoncé but I don’t think anyone was dreaming of getting a Country album from her. I’m not a fan of that genre but still will be following and listening and wish her well!

[popwizard]

Feb 13, 2024 18:18:45 GMT -5 dbhmr said:

I know my post can come off as a slight against Beyonce as a whole but I really mean specifically to this Renaissance album(s). Even her movie of the tour was so unbelievably impressive in terms of the painstaking effort she put into the vision. I think she's at her absolute best, and most untouchable, when it comes to her performance quality and the immaculateness of her brand. That has its pitfalls, but it doesn't mean she's worse off for it necessarily, it just means she pours more into one area and less into another.

If you take Beyonce, Taylor, and Adele--the three biggest music acts--they all have to sacrifice in one area. For Adele, it's visual commandment; for Taylor, it's music landscape innovation; and for Beyonce, it's a personal quality to her musical output. That's overly simplifying things to make a point, but the point isn't really that she herself is lacking, but that with this latest effort as a collective whole, I don't feel a very authentic connection to music that had to come out of her so much as something designed around an end goal. Not bad, not greedy, just impersonal to me.

That was so well stated and spot on!

[Mike]