What went wrong?: Collective Soul

[allow that]

I'm basically restating (well... copying and pasting) what I said in the Defunct 90's group thread a week or two ago... but since so many seemed to be interested in Collective Soul I figured I'd get the ball rolling for a more focused discussion.

So what wrong with their career?
_____________________________________________
I feel that that Blender is what killed them, despite being a great album. "Why Part 2" was still a good song for Alternative at that time but went nowhere. I agree that even I thought "Perfect Day" would go to #1 at Hot AC. "10 Years Later" should've been sent to AAA. It just seems they weren't completely behind the album... it came out of nowhere with no hype at all.

However, I still think part of the problem goes back to Dosage. And Dosage is my favorite album by them and one of my favorite albums of all-time, by anyone.

"Heavy" was a huge Rock/Alternative hit for them. But A) they failed to get a second huge R/A hit and B) "Run" didn't do nearly as well as it should have at Hot AC. If "Compliment" were released, it's the kind of song that could have gone to the top (back then anyway) at Rock, Alternative, HAC, AND Pop. It just had that across-the board smash feel to it. I'd consider it the "Most Wasted Album Track" of all-time.

I still wholeheartedly believe that if Collective Soul released "Compliment" as a single back in 1999, they would have had the biggest hit of their career.. and their profile would be bigger to this day. There would've been much more hype for the follow-up and even today they'd be more noticed... they could be in the same place MB20 is today if only they released that one song.

[Ragin]

Actually, I think it goes as far back as Disciplined Breakdown. While Precious Declaration was a good song and a medium hit, the album did not have the completeness that their first two albums had. This album caused them to fade back a bit after their huge success with the self-titled effort. That is why I think radio was a tad bit timid on the Dosage album. I agree that single release choices could have been better, but taking some time and making a bit better album with Disciplined Breakdown would have made the most difference.

What's hurting them right now is that the rift between Ross Childress and Ed Roland shows up a bit in Blender where they went for more of a pop sound (what Childress was after, I don't know why as great guitarists usually prefer hard rock) and then his departure from the band hurts their lineup. Childress is a very good guitarist and since Collective Soul has faded a bit, it hampers their ability to get a great guitarist to replace him.

None the less, the last word I heard is that they are gearing up for a May release, but I don't know how that is possible given that they still don't have a record contract.

[Rob64]

Atlantic is among the worst major record labels right now. That's part of the problem

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Looking at it from the pop side of it, it was the third CD that kind of took them away from what I saw and heard. I can't even name a song from that album and after a CD with two huge Top 10 hits, the fact that they didn't have any pop hits from the third CD probably hurt them. Then with the fourth one, they had 'Run' but by then, the interest didn't seem to be there. To me it seemed like with the third album, they wanted to be known as an alternative band first and most importantly.

[Ragin]

Rob64's said:

Looking at it from the pop side of it, it was the third CD that kind of took them away from what I saw and heard. I can't even name a song from that album and after a CD with two huge Top 10 hits, the fact that they didn't have any pop hits from the third CD probably hurt them. Then with the fourth one, they had 'Run' but by then, the interest didn't seem to be there. To me it seemed like with the third album, they wanted to be known as an alternative band first and most importantly.

The third album is disciplined Breakdown, so obviously I agree with you. Collective Soul is and always has been an alternative band. The third album aside from Precious Declaration just didn't have any stand out songs on it.

[jimmy74747]

I've always viewed Collective Soul as a mainstream old fashioned rock n' roll band. Similar to what Creed or 3 Doors Down is now.

They were not cut out for active rock or alternative radio in the Limp Bizkit/Korn/Blink 182 era. They were never truly alternative or edgy enough to get "street cred" from critics or music elites. They weren't cool enough for the kids. They're music was also too pop sounding. I think they appealed more to people who grew up in the 70's or 80's. It was an alternative to grunge and rap/metal that was domintaing rock/alternative radio.

That said, they still received play on "Rock" stations, and still will if they get a new album released. Nothing they put out as a single was catchy enough for pop radio since "The World I Know". There was just no place for them in the late 90's/early 00's.

Going forward, I say just focus on big riffs. Creed & 3DD have maintained rock play, while forgoing alternaive radio for the most part, and scoring huge pop hits in the meantime. Put out something as catchy as "Shine" or "December" and they'll have top 10 Pop, Hot AC, and Rock. CS must realize their audience is closer to matchbox twenty or even Bon Jovi than it is Linkin Park, and play to that group.

[Ragin]

Not wanting to change the thread focus here at all, but as an aside what is up with alternative anymore? To me alternative was never about Hard Rock, but that seems to dominate alternative formats now. Obviously alternative doesn't mean what it used to when ACtive Rock has the same songs by and large as Alternative. Triple A is the new alternative I guess.

Anyway, I agree that Collective Soul has a tough time fitting in now, but really Perfect Day could have and should have been a huge hit for them.

[jimmy74747]

c670769 said:

Not wanting to change the thread focus here at all, but as an aside what is up with alternative anymore? To me alternative was never about Hard Rock, but that seems to dominate alternative formats now. Obviously alternative doesn't mean what it used to when ACtive Rock has the same songs by and large as Alternative. Triple A is the new alternative I guess.

I totally agree. The playlists for Active Rock & Alternative are the same for the most part. I bet the year end Top 10 for both have at least 5 of the same songs.

[Nicholas2.0]

What made me quickly lose interest in the band was that all their songs started to sound the same. Not that I can't tell the difference between their singles, but it just seemed like all their rock songs were formulaic, 3-3:30 poppy rock songs that were over-produced. Their guitar sound came to annoy me, as it always sounded so processed, with hardly any low-end to it.

[crash46]

I think they tried too hard to implement the other band members into their music that it ended up losing its edge. Hints, Allegations, and Things Left Unsaid was 90% Ed Rowland, and that's what broke them through. Bur instead of getting to see his growth as a musician, we were stuck with tacked-on attempts to make the band's music a group effort.

[Ragin]

crash46 said:

I think they tried too hard to implement the other band members into their music that it ended up losing its edge. Hints, Allegations, and Things Left Unsaid was 90% Ed Rowland, and that's what broke them through. Bur instead of getting to see his growth as a musician, we were stuck with tacked-on attempts to make the band's music a group effort.

there is some truth to that. If a next album gets released I don't think we have to worry about that being a continuing trend. From what I've heard Ed has taken over again.

[allow that]

Although there were problems before the Dosage album, do any of you agree that if they released "Compliment" it could have saved them somewhat. I always think of that song as "The Biggest Hit Never Released." I don't know... that songs just sounds like a hit, it just seems like such a waste!

[Ragin]

Jersey said:

Although there were problems before the Dosage album, do any of you agree that if they released "Compliment" it could have saved them somewhat. I always think of that song as "The Biggest Hit Never Released." I don't know... that songs just sounds like a hit, it just seems like such a waste!

I'm sorry, I thought I responded to this but maybe not. I do agree that Compliment could have been a big hit. I never have understood what goes into the decision of what singles to release. Most of my favorite songs in general are not single releases. Compliment would have put them back on the map and maybe paved the way for Perfect Day to be a bigger hit.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

I'm not sure where Collective Soul would stand if they released a new CD.
In my opinion, they probably wouldn't be welcomes back at Alternative, not because they had a bunch of pop hits but because they don't really fit the sound. They aren't a new band and thus that probably won't work toward their favour. Older bands like RHCP always sounded Alternative and even if you played their older songs, they'd fit in with the playlists today, imo, but I don't think CS's old stuff would.
They might get a big of Rock success.
I think their best bet would be to go the way of Matchbox Twenty and aim for Triple A/Hot AC sound with attempts at breaking through at Pop.

[allow that]

Rob64's said:

I think their best bet would be to go the way of Matchbox Twenty and aim for Triple A/Hot AC sound with attempts at breaking through at Pop.

Yeah, kind of what Live did this year... it could work for them. The problem is it would be very easy for them to get stuck with only one medium-sized HAC hit. And HAC is no guarentee even with a good song... i.e. "Perfect Day."

[jond7699]

I got quite bored with Collective Souls music after the first two albums. Like someone said earlier all there singles started to sound the same. There is nothing cutting edge about CS.

[NORTHCOAST]

I just started getting into CS recently. I picked up their 7even Year Itch greatest hits album. Love some of the songs. Can someone give me a bit of info on the band to get me up to speed? Their CD's and how you rate them? Personal info about the band? What songs you really love by them? etc.

Thanks!

[Ragin]

NORTHCOAST said:

I just started getting into CS recently. I picked up their 7even Year Itch greatest hits album. Love some of the songs. Can someone give me a bit of info on the band to get me up to speed? Their CD's and how you rate them? Personal info about the band? What songs you really love by them? etc.

Thanks!

Collective Soul actually started as Ed Roland recording his songs on a demo disc which turned out to be Hints, Allegations and Things Left Unsaid. The song "Shine" was getting massive airplay, and a record company picked up the album and needed to get a band on tour and so a group of excellent musicians were put together to form Collective Soul. Ed's brother, Dean, Ross Childress, Will Turpin, and Shane Evans completed the band. They followed the success of "Shine" with a group effort simply titled Collective Soul. The enormous success of the album and singles "December", "World I Know", and "Gel" on rock, alternative, and pop formats propelled the band into the spotlight. The self-titled effort is hailed by most critics as their best work, and a truly excellent rock album. Their debut album was excellent as well (my own opinion). With a lot of popularity and fame, the band had the opportunity to really break through as a major force. A combination of a shifting music scene, and a lackluster effort in Disciplined Breakdown their 3rd album, prevented Collective Soul from achieving the upper echelon of popularity. Though "Precious Declaration" garnered plenty of airplay and video-play, the record could not live up to its near perfect predecessor. The group quickly recorded and released Dosage, an album that was widely considered to be much better than Disciplined Breakdown, but the doorway to pop radio had already closed and they were constrained to the rock and alternative formats. Despite the heavily played "Heavy" and the short run of "Run", Dosage did not reach a wide audience. In addition, tensions within the band did not help. Ross Childress wanted to go in a more pop-oriented direction and wanted more imput on songs. The extremely quick follow-up "Blender" turned out to be a nightmare for the band. The album would have been perfect had it been their 3rd album, but after losing a pop audience, the largely pop album didn't have a market. Even excellent songs such as "Perfect Day" a duet with Elton John couldn't find an audience and the band was thrown into disarray. The band could not agree with the next direction of their music, and so to fulfill their obligations with Atlantic, they recorded 7even Year Itch, a greatest hits compilation. A couple of new songs were included and Energy received some airplay, but the band was all but done at that point. Eventually, tensions were too much to bear, and their excellent lead guitarist, Ross Childress left the band. Ed Roland is back in charge and the band is currently recording a new album that they hope to release next Spring.

In my opinion all of their albums are pretty good, but be wary of Disciplined Breakdown, as it gets a bit monotonous. Their self titled effort is near perfect, and Dosage is great as well. I personally love Blender, but know many Collective Soul fans do not.

Hope that helps.

[allow that]

NORTHCOAST,

Definitely check out Dosage. It's one of my favorite albums of all time.

[NORTHCOAST]

Thank you so very much! You are great! I printed out this thread and am going to check out some of their other cds. I have a great library that has a lot of current stuff, so no $ out the window if I don't like it. Question, what songs on 7even Year Itch are new?

Thanks again! You rock!

[NORTHCOAST]

Hey, I just had to check with you CS fans. I listened to the introduction to The World I Know and thought it sounded so familiar. I just happened to have a Goo Goo Dolls CD in my player and it came on next. The beginning of IRIS sounds so much like The World I Know. Have you ever noticed this?

[Ragin]

NORTHCOAST said:

Hey, I just had to check with you CS fans. I listened to the introduction to The World I Know and thought it sounded so familiar. I just happened to have a Goo Goo Dolls CD in my player and it came on next. The beginning of IRIS sounds so much like The World I Know. Have you ever noticed this?

You know I hadn't thought about it, but now that you mention it, they do sort of sound similar. By the way the new songs off of 7 year itch are Energy, Next Homecoming, and She Said.

[jimmy74747]

"She Said" is actually a hidden track on "Doseage"

[Ragin]

jimmy74747 said:

"She Said" is actually a hidden track on "Doseage"

I probably missed that because I didn't know the name. Needless to say, I don't listen to the 7 year itch cd much.

[NORTHCOAST]

Hey, has anyone seen them live? Wondering what kind of entertainers they are. If they are coming out with a CD in 2004, they'll probably do a tour, don't you think? Are they worth seeing?

[Ragin]

NORTHCOAST said:

Hey, has anyone seen them live? Wondering what kind of entertainers they are. If they are coming out with a CD in 2004, they'll probably do a tour, don't you think? Are they worth seeing?

I have never actually seen them live. I almost did once and thought $30 was too high. I'm really regretting that now. For what it is worth, many fans that I have talked to say they are excellent live and if they do tour this would be the time to see them since they are down a bit now prices should be reasonable.