Dvorak
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Post by Dvorak on Feb 10, 2005 12:11:37 GMT -5
The new Billboard pop 100 chart has some promise, but is way too reliant on downloads. Is the new Lifehouse song really the 23rd biggest hit in the nation because 24,000 people downloaded it this week. Downloads are weighed much too heavily! And Candy Shop is already in the top 10. If sales and downloads are used at all on a chart, it should comprise no more than 20% of a songs "points". R&R's CHR Pop is still the one for now!
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bks
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Post by bks on Feb 10, 2005 12:46:11 GMT -5
If sales had not been included back in the 80's and 90's, Madonna, Janet Jackson, Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Whitney Houston and a score of others would not have anywhere close to the No. 1's they have now...in fact, "My Heart Will Go On" and "I Will Always Love You" were flopping at radio (in a huge way) before the sales gave the indication of just how big those songs would become...and "Ray Of Light" would have peaked much lower.
Billboard has always been the one quoted by the media and artists when it comes to chart positions...and it's great to see the consumer having a say again in what becomes a major hit...
Now artists like the Killers, Keane, Kelly Clarkson, Gwen Stefani, Lifehouse, etc. have a better chance of breaking thru (or forcing radio to take notice) when radio is only focused on one style of music at the time.
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Slinky
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Post by Slinky on Feb 10, 2005 13:06:10 GMT -5
If sales had not been included back in the 80's and 90's, Madonna, Janet Jackson, Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Whitney Houston and a score of others would not have anywhere close to the No. 1's they have now...in fact, "My Heart Will Go On" and "I Will Always Love You" were flopping at radio (in a huge way) before the sales gave the indication of just how big those songs would become...and "Ray Of Light" would have peaked much lower. I don't know much about the 80's, but in the 90's, all of those artists had #1's on Radio and Records CHR chart, which did not include sales. That kind of goes against your theory. Because of it's heritage, not because it's been the best chart over the past 15 years. The singles sales chart punishes artists that have great albums. If I've already bought "American Idiot", am I going to buy a "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" single? Of course not! Including digital sales is a huge step forward for Billboard, but the fact remains that radio airplay reaches so many more people than there are people who buy singles. Radio will always take notice of a single that sells a lot. This new chart won't have any effect on that. The Pop 100 is fun to look at, but I won't trust anything but an airplay-only chart to decide what's the biggest hit in the land.
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bks
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Post by bks on Feb 10, 2005 13:07:36 GMT -5
The new Billboard pop 100 chart has some promise, but is way too reliant on downloads. Is the new Lifehouse song really the 23rd biggest hit in the nation because 24,000 people downloaded it this week. Downloads are weighed much too heavily! And Candy Shop is already in the top 10. If sales and downloads are used at all on a chart, it should comprise no more than 20% of a songs "points". R&R's CHR Pop is still the one for now! It's funny you mention Lifehouse...because just yesterday two different people at work asked me where they could get the new Lifehouse single while no one has asked me in the past 4 weeks about the other 99 songs on the chart...other than Keane that is...kinda funny!
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bks
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Post by bks on Feb 10, 2005 13:53:34 GMT -5
I don't know much about the 80's, but in the 90's, all of those artists had #1's on Radio and Records CHR chart, which did not include sales. That kind of goes against your theory. Because of it's heritage, not because it's been the best chart over the past 15 years. The singles sales chart punishes artists that have great albums. If I've already bought "American Idiot", am I going to buy a "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" single? Of course not! Including digital sales is a huge step forward for Billboard, but the fact remains that radio airplay reaches so many more people than there are people who buy singles. Radio will always take notice of a single that sells a lot. This new chart won't have any effect on that. The Pop 100 is fun to look at, but I won't trust anything but an airplay-only chart to decide what's the biggest hit in the land. I’m not saying all their hits…but sales have always helped their positions. Here’s how some of their key 90’s hits would faired on the Hot 100 had sales not been included in the Hot 100 during the 90’s: Madonna: This Used To Be My Playground - #2 Airplay (#1 on Hot 100) Justify My Love - #5 (#1 on Hot 100) Erotica - #2 (#1 on Hot 100) Frozen - #7 (#2 on Hot 100) Ray Of Light - #26 (#5 on Hot 100) Music - #3 (#1 on Hot 100) Die Another Day - #15 (#8 on Hot 100) Mariah Carey: I Don’t Wanna Cry - #4 (#1 on Hot 100) Always Be My Baby - #2 (#1 on Hot 100) Honey - #11 (#1 on Hot 100) My All - #15 (#1 on Hot 100) Heartbreaker - #8 (#1 on Hot 100) Whitney I’m Your Baby Tonight - #3 (#1 on Hot 100) Heartbreak Hotel - #5 (#2 on Hot 100) It’s Not Right But It’s OK - #13 (#4 on Hot 100) My Love Is Your Love – #8 (#4 on Hot 100) And know for a fact it was the Hot 100 position that got the attention of radio on LeAnn Rimes “How Do I Live”. KRBE in Houston was the first major Top 40 station on and stated they couldn’t ignore such a big hit on the Hot 100 – which was charting due almost entirely to sales at the time. “How Do I Live” even hit Gold before it broke the Top 40 portion of Hot 100 Airplay. It wasn’t a hit at Country – and the week it hit No. 35 on the Hot 100 Airplay it was No. 2 in sales. That week it ranked No. 5 on the Hot 100…it went on to sell 3.5 million singles and become the 17th biggest hit of all time per Billboard...despite never making it higher than #3 in Airplay. And the sales chart is not out to punish anyone...Green Day has the No. 2 selling single right now...#1 last week...it would rank lower if not for the sales on the Hot 100 and Pop 100 (where it hits No. 1 this week...because of sales).
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botoxic
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Post by botoxic on Feb 10, 2005 14:10:03 GMT -5
Madonna: Erotica - #2 (#1 on Hot 100) Actually, Erotica only hit #3 on the Hot 100. But I absolutely agree that sales are a very necessary component for a true reflection of what's popular in music. For the past five years, with negligible sales having little effect on the Hot 100, the bottom line is that a couple hundred music directors determined the entire chart. Yes, they were influenced by other people in the industry, rabid fans, and occasionally the casual listener. But without sales, most music fans really had no say whatsoever. For those who have only followed the charts for the last decade, not being able to predict the Hot 100 based on Mediabase airplay tallies may be a bit of a shock. But this is a grand return to form for those of us who followed charts in the early 90's, the 80's, and even before that. R&R and Billboard have two different pop charts, measuring two different things. Both have their pros and cons, and both can be extremely useful.
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bks
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Post by bks on Feb 10, 2005 14:23:34 GMT -5
Actually, Erotica only hit #3 on the Hot 100. But I absolutely agree that sales are a very necessary component for a true reflection of what's popular in music. For the past five years, with negligible sales having little effect on the Hot 100, the bottom line is that a couple hundred music directors determined the entire chart. Yes, they were influenced by other people in the industry, rabid fans, and occasionally the casual listener. But without sales, most music fans really had no say whatsoever. For those who have only followed the charts for the last decade, not being able to predict the Hot 100 based on Mediabase airplay tallies may be a bit of a shock. But this is a grand return to form for those of us who followed charts in the early 90's, the 80's, and even before that. R&R and Billboard have two different pop charts, measuring two different things. Both have their pros and cons, and both can be extremely useful. Very well written…and yep, got the “Erotica” peak wrong…doing this between work projects. A better example people on this board might follow is Britney Spears “Baby One More Time”...probably the most defining Pop song of the 90's: The week it hit No. 1 on the Hot 100 Singles Sales chart it dropped from No. 54 to No. 61 on Hot 100 Airplay (No. 54 was it's peak up to that point). Had it not been for the sales reaction radio would have ignored this song…they had already given up…instead it hit No. 1 on the Hot 100 for 2 weeks and eventually peaked at No. 8 on the Hot 100 Airplay chart. The week it was No. 61 in Airplay it was No. 4 on the Hot 100…
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2005 16:11:42 GMT -5
Also, "I Don't Wanna Cry" spent two weeks at #1 on Hot 100 airplay. Mariah's first five singles topped that chart.
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bks
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Post by bks on Feb 10, 2005 17:08:48 GMT -5
Also, "I Don't Wanna Cry" spent two weeks at #1 on Hot 100 airplay. Mariah's first five singles topped that chart. Are you sure? Billboard’s archive section shows it spent 20 weeks on Hot 100 Airplay w/ the following chart run: 69-29-25-21-15-12-9-6-6-5-6-4-4-4-6-11-19-23-26-31 It did spend 2 weeks at No. 1 on the Hot 100 though…
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Feb 10, 2005 18:38:53 GMT -5
If sales had not been included back in the 80's and 90's, Madonna, Janet Jackson, Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Whitney Houston and a score of others would not have anywhere close to the No. 1's they have now...in fact, "My Heart Will Go On" and "I Will Always Love You" were flopping at radio (in a huge way) before the sales gave the indication of just how big those songs would become...and "Ray Of Light" would have peaked much lower. Billboard has always been the one quoted by the media and artists when it comes to chart positions...and it's great to see the consumer having a say again in what becomes a major hit... Now artists like the Killers, Keane, Kelly Clarkson, Gwen Stefani, Lifehouse, etc. have a better chance of breaking thru (or forcing radio to take notice) when radio is only focused on one style of music at the time. Halelluiah!
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Post by britrocks16 on Feb 10, 2005 20:54:52 GMT -5
I still consider Chr/Pop the best pop chart, although I really like how the Pop 100 is looking.
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Feb 10, 2005 21:56:17 GMT -5
With AT40 now using Mediabase with apparently no mention of R&R, is there any national media outlet / publication that uses or quotes the CHR/POP chart?
Outside of the industry is the chart recognized as the official US chart or is it still Billboard?
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mst3k
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Post by mst3k on Feb 10, 2005 22:08:09 GMT -5
Are you sure? Billboard’s archive section shows it spent 20 weeks on Hot 100 Airplay w/ the following chart run: 69-29-25-21-15-12-9-6-6-5-6-4-4-4-6-11-19-23-26-31 It did spend 2 weeks at No. 1 on the Hot 100 though… According to Joel Whitburn's Record Research books, it hit #1 on the Airplay chart for two weeks, and peaked at #3 in Sales. The discrepancy could be because Billboard had two pop airplay charts going during that time period (the old Hot 100 Airplay chart, which used phoned-in reports from radio stations; and the experimental Top 40 Radio Monitor, which used BDS monitored airplay and became the airplay basis for the Hot 100 later that year). (A similar situation occurred with the Sales charts during that time.)
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DuckHead
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Post by DuckHead on Feb 10, 2005 22:55:04 GMT -5
With AT40 now using Mediabase with apparently no mention of R&R, is there any national media outlet / publication that uses or quotes the CHR/POP chart? Outside of the industry is the chart recognized as the official US chart or is it still Billboard? The Billboard Hot 100 is still recognized as the "official US chart", but only because of it's history. I would claim that AT40 is the "official US chart", as that chart is the only one that non-chart fans hear- it's the only one on the radio. I think that casual radio listeners think that AT40 is Billboard. As for which charts is better, the Pop 100 or R&R, I choose R&R because I find it to be more accurate. R&R lists exact spins, which Billboard does not. They use audience impressions, which is not an exact number- it's an estimation. R&R is exact, no arguments about it. R&R is a radio-play chart, nothing less, nothing more. It is what it is, and it's the best at what it does. It does not measure sales or anything else. So if you're looking for a "all-media-spanning" chart, then Billboard is for you. My main problem with the Hot 100 and Pop 100 is the radio-plays/sales ratio. It's at some weird number like 69-31 or something. Where does that come from? It is an in-exact formula that Billboard uses. And combining sales with airplay seems weird to me. It's like combining NFL rushing yards with the NFL quarterback ratings. They are two totally different things, and there is no exact way to compare or combine them. I think airplay and sales charts should be kept seperate.
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JayBoozer
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Post by JayBoozer on Feb 10, 2005 23:04:24 GMT -5
Don't both reflect the popularity of a song though? Sales reflect consumer wants and airplay reflects the listenability of a song (not a word but w/e ).
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Topay
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Post by Topay on Feb 10, 2005 23:05:03 GMT -5
But Billboard does have an airplay-only CHR chart. It's called Mainstream Top 40.
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KikiMets
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Post by KikiMets on Feb 10, 2005 23:08:44 GMT -5
My main problem with the Hot 100 and Pop 100 is the radio-plays/sales ratio. It's at some weird number like 69-31 or something. Where does that come from? It is an in-exact formula that Billboard uses. It's.Not.A.Ratio.[/u] 1,000 singles sold or downloaded count as much in terms of point value as 1 million audience impressions on the Pop 100 or 2 million on the Hot 100. That might work out to a general ratio for the chart as a whole, but the value of one or the other isn't adjusted to fit a specific ratio.
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DuckHead
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Post by DuckHead on Feb 10, 2005 23:35:17 GMT -5
[/u] 1,000 singles sold or downloaded count as much in terms of point value as 1 million audience impressions on the Pop 100 or 2 million on the Hot 100. That might work out to a general ratio for the chart as a whole, but the value of one or the other isn't adjusted to fit a specific ratio.[/quote] But that is a ratio. Who decides that 1,000 single sales = 1 million audience impression? Really, look at the number. Divide that up and what do you get? 1 = 1,000. It's essentially saying that 1,000 people will listen to every 1 single sold! That's ridiculous! I would say 1 or 2 people on average listen to every 1 single sold. Certainly not 1,000! I would think that 1,000 single sales = 1,000 audience impression. Furthermore, how can somebody prove that 1,000 singles is equal to 1 milion audience? There is no mathematical way to justify that. That number is an estimation- not an exact one.
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Post by Vanilla Bean on Feb 10, 2005 23:43:40 GMT -5
But that is a ratio. Who decides that 1,000 single sales = 1 million audience impression? Really, look at the number. Divide that up and what do you get? 1 = 1,000. It's essentially saying that 1,000 people will listen to every 1 single sold! That's ridiculous! I would say 1 or 2 people on average listen to every 1 single sold. Certainly not 1,000! I would think that 1,000 single sales = 1,000 audience impression. Furthermore, how can somebody prove that 1,000 singles is equal to 1 milion audience? There is no mathematical way to justify that. That number is an estimation- not an exact one. Or 1 person will listen to a purchased single 1,000 times, which is also weird. I think the reason they make 1,000 singles sold equal 1 million in audience is because when people listen to downloads and singles, they are taking audience impressions away from the radio. The new Billboard Chart is really really weird. I have noticed that songs don't rise steadily. This new formula has songs jumping like 50 spots per week, and other songs either staying in the same positions or falling/rising one or two spots. There aren't many songs that rise/fall 5 to 10 positions
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Feb 10, 2005 23:48:01 GMT -5
Or 1 person will listen to a purchased single 1,000 times, which is also weird. I think the reason they make 1,000 singles sold equal 1 million in audience is because when people listen to downloads and singles, they are taking audience impressions away from the radio. The new Billboard Chart is really really weird. I have noticed that songs don't rise steadily. This new formula has songs jumping like 50 spots per week, and other songs either staying in the same positions or falling/rising one or two spots. There aren't many songs that rise/fall 5 to 10 positions I like the new Billboard because people can't chart fix songs. Songs can go up at any pace their popularity takes them. None of this mandatory 5 or 10 spots a week stuff that radio seems to do alot of times. Not to mention SALES are the reason people are in the record business to begin with....so its only natural that they count as a criteria for the charts. If people are willing to buy the song that ultimately means they like the song or the artist enough to buy the song on blind faith.
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KikiMets
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Post by KikiMets on Feb 10, 2005 23:49:49 GMT -5
But that is a ratio. Who decides that 1,000 single sales = 1 million audience impression? Really, look at the number. Divide that up and what do you get? 1 = 1,000. It's essentially saying that 1,000 people will listen to every 1 single sold! That's ridiculous! I would say 1 or 2 people on average listen to every 1 single sold. Certainly not 1,000! I would think that 1,000 single sales = 1,000 audience impression. Furthermore, how can somebody prove that 1,000 singles is equal to 1 milion audience? There is no mathematical way to justify that. That number is an estimation- not an exact one. But it's not as though the people at Billboard decided "okay, we're going to make airplay have 72% of the weight on the chart." If lots of singles are sold, then sales will make up a higher percentage of the chart. If not many singles are sold, they'll make up a lower percentage of the chart. And I don't think they're implying that 1,000 people will listen to every single sold, but perhaps on average, every 1,000 instances of a song being heard on the radio leads to 1 purchase.
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Post by Pink Champagne Ricochet on Feb 11, 2005 3:23:36 GMT -5
I agree with the fact that 1 single sale should equal to 1000 audience impressions, more or less. IMO, it means more for someone to actually spend money whether it's $.99 for a download or $3.99 for a CD, as opposed for someone that just happened to hear a song 90 times in the past week because a PD decided to put it in heavy rotation.
However, the BB Pop 100 needs some tweaking to me, even some gasp towards airplay. Now i've always been a big believer in the fact that sales should count quite a bit (see above). But with something like Lifehouse up there that I haven't even heard is kinda strange. However, it makes things interesting.
I wonder if CHR/Pop stations will look at the Pop 100 for any indication of what to add/increase rotation of on their play list. Of course most of the songs will be the same, but there'll be a few (excluding the country songs at the very bottom of the Pop 100) that are getting little airplay but are connecting to some part of the public and therefore might get some stations to take notice. Nah.
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Post by kellydicted on Feb 11, 2005 4:11:34 GMT -5
The new Pop 100 is good but I still consider CHR/POP the ultimate pop chart
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620 Soul Train
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Post by 620 Soul Train on Feb 11, 2005 4:30:30 GMT -5
This is still undecided for me at this point.
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bks
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Post by bks on Feb 11, 2005 9:39:41 GMT -5
But that is a ratio. Who decides that 1,000 single sales = 1 million audience impression? Really, look at the number. Divide that up and what do you get? 1 = 1,000. It's essentially saying that 1,000 people will listen to every 1 single sold! That's ridiculous! I would say 1 or 2 people on average listen to every 1 single sold. Certainly not 1,000! I would think that 1,000 single sales = 1,000 audience impression. Furthermore, how can somebody prove that 1,000 singles is equal to 1 milion audience? There is no mathematical way to justify that. That number is an estimation- not an exact one. The original 1,000 per 1 million was used partly because the thought was it usually took about 1 million in audience reach to sell 1,000 singles (on a normal song). If you looked at the sales chart back in the early 90's, a typical #1 would be just under 100,000 units (and a #1 in audience would be just under 100 million) -- a very reactive song could get up to the 250,000 range or higher. Also, the 1 million in audience is made up of many repeat listeners -- they are not all different people. If someone has their radio on all day at work and a song is played 10 times during the day...that person counts as 10...and so on... The thought is if a song is getting mass airplay and selling really well it's more popular and better known than a song getting mass airplay and not selling well...this is also similar to what radio calls "familiarity"...sometimes radio can be playing a song w/ a lot of spins but the "familiarity" will be really low...this is normally due to people switching stations when it comes on in mass...just because they are playing something during their most listened time slots doesn't mean people are staying tuned to hear it during those 3 minutes. Radio will stick w/ a song for only so many weeks w/ low familiarity before they drop it...
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bks
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Post by bks on Feb 11, 2005 9:42:29 GMT -5
Also, internationally, sales rather than airplay is the determination factor in what is considered a hit.
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Post by ƒony (Les taches faibles™) on Feb 11, 2005 9:53:47 GMT -5
AT40 should switch to the Pop 100 now.
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KikiMets
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Post by KikiMets on Feb 11, 2005 10:10:42 GMT -5
The thought is if a song is getting mass airplay and selling really well it's more popular and better known than a song getting mass airplay and not selling well...this is also similar to what radio calls "familiarity"...sometimes radio can be playing a song w/ a lot of spins but the "familiarity" will be really low...this is normally due to people switching stations when it comes on in mass...just because they are playing something during their most listened time slots doesn't mean people are staying tuned to hear it during those 3 minutes. Radio will stick w/ a song for only so many weeks w/ low familiarity before they drop it... I know that radio stations use callout research to gauge listener reaction to songs. Would I be correct in assuming that this research consists of calling a panel of listeners, playing short clips of songs on the station's playlist, and asking the listeners to rate the songs and whether they are familiar with (or tired of) them?
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Dvorak
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Post by Dvorak on Feb 11, 2005 10:36:06 GMT -5
Maybe Callout Research should be used also in computing the Pop 100
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KikiMets
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Post by KikiMets on Feb 11, 2005 10:42:25 GMT -5
Maybe Callout Research should be used also in computing the Pop 100 Well, in a sense they do ;). Songs that do well in callout research are more likely to get airplay.
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