G-Reg
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Post by G-Reg on Feb 9, 2009 21:24:12 GMT -5
But MLWS was #1 for two weeks. People are continuing to buy it because they like it. Call outs have been amazing. Radio is picking up on this at an amazing rate. It's a hit, a #1 hit. Yeah , NOW it's deserving of it's high peak, but it's first week at #1, that was good old fashioned chart manipulation. How was that manipulation? In fact, many people thought her label was dumb for NOT repressing downloads which IS chart manipulation ala "Touch My Body." That song wasn't deserving of #1. MLWS is so popular it was able to get enough airplay and sales so quickly it hit #1 sooner than most other hits. |
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CammyCan
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Post by CammyCan on Feb 9, 2009 21:24:17 GMT -5
Maybe in your area it was "virtually unknown", but that certainly wasn't the case with people I know. Almost everyone I know had heard the song at least once within the first few days it was played. It seems like you're trying to take your case and extend it to the rest of America, which isn't exactly correct.
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:27:03 GMT -5
Yeah , NOW it's deserving of it's high peak, but it's first week at #1, that was good old fashioned chart manipulation. How was that manipulation? In fact, many people thought her label was dumb for NOT repressing downloads which IS chart manipulation ala "Touch My Body." That song wasn't deserving of #1. MLWS is so popular it was able to get enough airplay and sales so quickly it hit #1 sooner than most other hits. You're right on TMB, that was textbook chart manipulation. This wasn't the label's fault in Kelly's case, it's the most zealous portion of her fanbase, and some people who saw the song on top of iTunes probably got curious, and downloaded it. But I'm sure if I went looking, I could have found some download days organized, or people urging to gift the song to as many people as possible on a message board. |
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:28:40 GMT -5
Maybe in your area it was "virtually unknown", but that certainly wasn't the case with people I know. Almost everyone I know had heard the song at least once within the first few days it was played. It seems like you're trying to take your case and extend it to the rest of America, which isn't exactly correct. but it's airplay/streams only got it to #97 the week before it went to #1, that's not very popular in my eyes, and that's all the real promotion it got the week before it went for sale on iTunes. |
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👑 Eloquent ™
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Post by 👑 Eloquent ™ on Feb 9, 2009 21:32:51 GMT -5
I have never said or alluded to the fact that only Kelly fans can view MLWSWY on iTunes at any point in time. Wasted argument. But you did say that it was only Kelly's fanbase that pushed it to the #1 position, implying that all 270,000 people who purchased the song must be die hard Kelly fans (which simply isn't true). So basically it seems you have an issue with the download to airplay ratio formula Billboard uses for the Hot 100 in general. Well let's put it this way, no song in the US today will make it to #1 on airplay alone. So it seems there will never be a "real/fair" #1 in your eyes, because after all who says that anytime a song has big sales it's not because of their rabid fanbases trying to push their favorite song/artist to new heights. :O Umm, obviously. Never said they didn't. Oh ok, well going by that logic songs like Bleeding Love, Apologize, So What, Disturbia etc all weren't real #1 hits because they all sold under 4 million copies which is less than 1.3% of the US population. Boy I bet Beyonce and Taylor swift are flopping with their new albums, only 0.6% of the US population have bought their albums. Give me a break. |
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G-Reg
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Post by G-Reg on Feb 9, 2009 21:34:24 GMT -5
How was that manipulation? In fact, many people thought her label was dumb for NOT repressing downloads which IS chart manipulation ala "Touch My Body." That song wasn't deserving of #1. MLWS is so popular it was able to get enough airplay and sales so quickly it hit #1 sooner than most other hits. You're right on TMB, that was textbook chart manipulation. This wasn't the label's fault in Kelly's case, it's the most zealous portion of her fanbase, and some people who saw the song on top of iTunes probably got curious, and downloaded it. But I'm sure if I went looking, I could have found some download days organized, or people urging to gift the song to as many people as possible on a message board. Yes but fanbases can only go so far. She sold almost 300,000 singles in her first week alone. It's clear that she had to have a huge amount of support from the general public to achieve this, and then repeat it again the next week. |
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Post by Love Plastic Love on Feb 9, 2009 21:35:01 GMT -5
What? If anything, this was a case of NOT manipulating the chart. The label merely made the single available right away. By the rules Billboard has for every song it sold enough to hit #1. If fans are overzealous for buying a single from an artist they like then EVERY fan for every artist is overzealous...unless they illegally download?
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👑 Eloquent ™
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Post by 👑 Eloquent ™ on Feb 9, 2009 21:36:06 GMT -5
How was that manipulation? In fact, many people thought her label was dumb for NOT repressing downloads which IS chart manipulation ala "Touch My Body." That song wasn't deserving of #1. MLWS is so popular it was able to get enough airplay and sales so quickly it hit #1 sooner than most other hits. I could have found some download days organized, or people urging to gift the song to as many people as possible on a message board. Yes, download days really do work. Man, we all should get together next week and get P!nk's Sober to #1 on the Hot 100!!!!!! |
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:36:38 GMT -5
I have never said or alluded to the fact that only Kelly fans can view MLWSWY on iTunes at any point in time. Wasted argument. But you did say that it was only Kelly's fanbase that pushed it to the #1 position, implying that all 270,000 people who purchased the song must be die hard Kelly fans (which simply isn't true). So basically it seems you have an issue with the download to airplay ratio formula Billboard uses for the Hot 100 in general. Well let's put it this way, no song in the US today will make it to #1 on airplay alone. So it seems there will never be a "real/fair" #1 in your eyes, because after all who says that anytime a song has big sales it's not because of their rabid fanbases trying to push their favorite song/artist to new heights. :O Umm, obviously. Never said they didn't. Oh ok, well going by that logic songs like Bleeding Love, Apologize, So What, Disturbia etc all weren't real #1 hits because they all sold under 4 million copies which is less than 1.3% of the US population. Boy I bet Beyonce and Taylor swift are flopping with their new albums, only 0.6% of the US population have bought their albums. Give me a break. I'll humor you and say 60% were. Big sales in a first week release, yes, it is because of rabid fanbase. As for those songs, go look at their airplay on weeks that they peaked, then come talk to me. And all album sales suck these days. |
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:38:18 GMT -5
You're right on TMB, that was textbook chart manipulation. This wasn't the label's fault in Kelly's case, it's the most zealous portion of her fanbase, and some people who saw the song on top of iTunes probably got curious, and downloaded it. But I'm sure if I went looking, I could have found some download days organized, or people urging to gift the song to as many people as possible on a message board. Yes but fanbases can only go so far. She sold almost 300,000 singles in her first week alone. It's clear that she had to have a huge amount of support from the general public to achieve this, and then repeat it again the next week. I admitted that some average joes did see it and got interested and bought it. And it only got two weeks I can guarantee you that it won't be next week, due to a simillar situation unfolding with Eminem's new song. |
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:39:14 GMT -5
What? If anything, this was a case of NOT manipulating the chart. The label merely made the single available right away. By the rules Billboard has for every song it sold enough to hit #1. If fans are overzealous for buying a single from an artist they like then EVERY fan for every artist is overzealous...unless they illegally download? Sadly yes, I would be willing to be my own life that a song is illegally downloaded more times in a week than it actually sells. |
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:39:56 GMT -5
I could have found some download days organized, or people urging to gift the song to as many people as possible on a message board. Yes, download days really do work. Man, we all should get together next week and get P!nk's Sober to #1 on the Hot 100!!!!!! Perhaps your argument would be plausible on a P!nk fan forum. ;) |
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G-Reg
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Post by G-Reg on Feb 9, 2009 21:39:59 GMT -5
Yes but fanbases can only go so far. She sold almost 300,000 singles in her first week alone. It's clear that she had to have a huge amount of support from the general public to achieve this, and then repeat it again the next week. I admitted that some average joes did see it and got interested and bought it. And it only got two weeks I can guarantee you that it won't be next week, due to a simillar situation unfolding with Eminem's new song. Not some average joes. Hundreds of thousands of average joes. and the fact that it GOT two weeks shows that you're theory is wrong. |
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David
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Post by David on Feb 9, 2009 21:41:02 GMT -5
This thread sucks now.
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ƒreakshow
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Post by ƒreakshow on Feb 9, 2009 21:42:15 GMT -5
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G-Reg
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Post by G-Reg on Feb 9, 2009 21:42:34 GMT -5
Why because we're having a discussion? It's these comments that don't add anything, and make the thread suck. |
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:43:07 GMT -5
I admitted that some average joes did see it and got interested and bought it. And it only got two weeks I can guarantee you that it won't be next week, due to a simillar situation unfolding with Eminem's new song. Not some average joes. Hundreds of thousands of average joes. and the fact that it GOT two weeks shows that you're theory is wrong. I'm only in entire disagreement with its first week at #1 making it the most popular song in the US, and I even conceded and said that 60% of the sales its first week were from rabid fans, I met you 40% of the way, on its first week. It gained audience and exposure its second week, I give it that, even though I give it begrudgingly, only because astronomical sales and minimal/moderate airplay hardly constitute what a #1 song should be to me. |
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Post by Love Plastic Love on Feb 9, 2009 21:45:56 GMT -5
I think, ultimately, your issue is with the construction of the hot 100 and not really Kelly fans, correct? THat is a valid complaint. I have my own issues with the hot 100 formula. And NLP has been very respectful from what I can see even if he has a technically negative opinion of sorts. A little debate is never bad :)
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👑 Eloquent ™
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Post by 👑 Eloquent ™ on Feb 9, 2009 21:48:10 GMT -5
Not some average joes. Hundreds of thousands of average joes. and the fact that it GOT two weeks shows that you're theory is wrong. I'm only in entire disagreement with its first week at #1 making it the most popular song in the US, and I even conceded and said that 60% of the sales its first week were from rabid fans, I met you 40% of the way, on its first week. It gained audience and exposure its second week, I give it that, even though I give it begrudgingly, only because astronomical sales and minimal/moderate airplay hardly constitute what a #1 song should be to me. Perhaps all this talk would be better suited here as it seems your issue is more with the way downloads factor into the Hot 100: pulsemusic.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=polling&action=display&thread=60115Either way, this thread is turning into one big:  |
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G-Reg
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Post by G-Reg on Feb 9, 2009 21:48:29 GMT -5
Now with this new Eminem single, I'm seeing the point a bit more about the first week #1 issue. He's gonna be #1 but that song is not the most popular in the US right now. But as you said, LPL, that's a problem with the Hot 100, not Kelly. And since MLWS has had 2 weeks at #1 and is obviously becoming an airplay and sales hit, we can all agree that it is a legitimate hit!
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:49:49 GMT -5
I think, ultimately, your issue is with the construction of the hot 100 and not really Kelly fans, correct? THat is a valid complaint. I have my own issues with the hot 100 formula. And NLP has been very respectful from what I can see even if he has a technically negative opinion of sorts. A little debate is never bad :) Thank you And it's a combination, the hot 100 is a dinosaur, and people are smarter than it, and can manipulate it, and know that if a song sells X number of units, it can go to #1. Mariah's fans did it to several of her singles. TMB obviously, WBT not so much, that was a bonafide hit, radio airplay was astronomical as were sales. The week MLWSWY went to #1 it was a huge sales spike, and I do feel llke her fans were really hungry for new material and just latched onto it. But by no means do I think that its first week at #1 made it the most popular song in the US. |
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 21:51:19 GMT -5
Now with this new Eminem single, I'm seeing the point a bit more about the first week #1 issue. He's gonna be #1 but that song is not the most popular in the US right now. But as you said, LPL, that's a problem with the Hot 100, not Kelly. And since MLWS has had 2 weeks at #1 and is obviously becoming an airplay and sales hit, we can all agree that it is a legitimate hit! absolutely, now, i feel more comfortable saying that MLWSWY is one of the most popular songs in the US. But the new eminem song by no means at all, but in the next few weeks it may earn that right. |
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Post by nlp81906 on Feb 9, 2009 22:09:53 GMT -5
I think downloads are more manipulative than radio. case closed ;) |
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David
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Post by David on Feb 9, 2009 22:17:08 GMT -5
Can we take this convo to the iTunes/Hot 100 thread or something?
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circadian
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Post by circadian on Feb 9, 2009 22:41:00 GMT -5
Can we take this convo to the iTunes/Hot 100 thread or something? Please |
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ƒreakshow
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Post by ƒreakshow on Feb 9, 2009 22:52:36 GMT -5
It's fun listening to the instrumental of this.
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jamrock16
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Post by jamrock16 on Feb 9, 2009 23:01:28 GMT -5
Kelly deserved every right to be #1 on the Hot 100 because the song was not repressed one bit and she garnered enough airplay to achieve the #1 spot. No other song in the US was more popular than that song at the time thats why it beat out Just Dance. Seems 100% fair to me.
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sweptaway
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Post by sweptaway on Feb 9, 2009 23:46:19 GMT -5
I'm a really firm believer in that if a song is virtually unknown, and zooms to #1 the next week on the wings of crazed fan downloads, it's not a truly deserving #1 for that week. Now, in time, the song usually does become deserving of being #1, after radio catches up, and middle america has time to actually be immersed in it. I'm curious, if the song stayed at #1 for two weeks running, selling almost half-million copies doesn't that mean that it's a pretty popular song? seems so. It's also #9 on the Pop radio play chart and #8 on Hot AC and let's not forget that it was previewed on American Idol which introduced the song to about 30 million people in a nano-second. if you hadn't heard it prior to it reaching #1 then perhaps you could turn on your television or radio and keep up with the hottest music and then you'd be a bit more relevant to the conversation. just a suggestion. |
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Post by sosickofluvsongs on Feb 9, 2009 23:58:20 GMT -5
i think on its first week at #1, i could see the argument that this wasn't a popular song. but when it stayed there for a second week (and with the big jump in airplay), i think that pretty much closes the argument.
this is a hit. deal with it!
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neally
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Post by neally on Feb 10, 2009 0:16:36 GMT -5
Wow, you mean all those songs and albums that I have purchased in the years' past from iTunes were not for my listening pleasure but rather only to get their respective artists to #1 ? Glad you are around because I didn't even know that about myself.......... When a song sells enough to go to #1 in its first week of release, that doesn't happen without promotion unless you have an over-zealous fanbase, and that is abundantly clear to me in the case of this song And I wasn't talking about your entire music collection, only this one song in particular, better luck next time you want to make me look like I don't know I'm talking about Oh, so now the latest hypothesis of yours is that "only this one song in particular" from our iTunes collections was purchased by me (and others) for the sole purpose of rocketing that song to #1. Perhaps people saw an advertisement on iTunes for a new song by an artist who has has been relatively out of the industry to that point and/or perhaps the brilliant marketing stategy of mini-leaks of information about the new single in the previous weeks got more than a few people curious, and/or perhaps, people simply liked the 30 second snippet. Naw- you must be correct as NONE of the other possibilities that I have listed would be true. If you told me that you believed that an "over-zealous fanbase" was responsible for getting Clay Aiken's 1-2 year old non-hit song 'On My Way Here' to #1 on AOL.COM this past week, I would concur with you since that song is nowhere on radio or the iTunes charts. But, I still would like an explanation for the unusually rapid ascent on the charts of 'Life Would Suck'- "overzealous fanbase", too ? You and I both know that an artist's "overzealous fans" likely purchased their artist's song on Day #1 of it's availability, so who purchased that song on day #2-14 to keep to #1 on iTunes ? Who continues to purchase the song in week 3 to keep it at #2, only second to Eminem who has released his first single in five years ? The holes in your "logic" are becoming increasing and glaringly larger...... I would like to make a recommendation for you: perhaps, your brilliant mindreading "skills" would better be utilized by the sales and marketing departments of say a record label, such as RCA, since you clearly know more about me than I do myself when it comes to my rationale for purchasing music, lol. |
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