lullaby
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Post by lullaby on Feb 15, 2009 5:03:49 GMT -5
I could imagine taylor winning entertainer at some point due to tour sales etc
Vocalist would be a joke imo
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elcamino
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Post by elcamino on Feb 15, 2009 8:37:06 GMT -5
I think Taylors people will go for her at the CMA's ETOY,but isn't she going over to pop next year. I heard her wanting to do songs with Lady Gaga and Britney Spears?
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DCXfan
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Post by DCXfan on Feb 15, 2009 9:25:57 GMT -5
By and large, vocalist is just an expression. The phrase might as well mean "top country female" or "top country male," because I don't think people rave about Tim McGraw, Kenny Chesney, and Gretchen Wilson's vocal abilities, just to name a few recent winners.
Seriously, if the primary concern was vocal, why hasn't Martina won every year (well, before Carrie came along)? She's always had amazing pipes. Moreover, what if Carrie had a year where she recorded an entire album of Bob That Head quality songs? She'd still have an amazing voice, so by the definitions some of you have, it sounds like you think she should still win in such a scenario. If the only criteria is voice, I don't even see the point to having the award, because you can be 99.9% sure that Carrie's going to have a better vocal performance than her competition. Every single year.
With that said, I don't see Taylor unseating Carrie this year, for a couple of reasons. First, Carrie's already basically staked her territory there, and as the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. She is a good ambassador for the genre. Second, as long as both are commercial giants, I do think some people will use perceived vocal ability as a tiebreaker of sorts. But the key word there is tiebreaker. There are a lot of other things that are considered first and it's not at all "a joke" for Taylor to have a legitimate shot at the award (this year or future years).
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jeff
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Post by jeff on Feb 15, 2009 11:51:57 GMT -5
By and large, vocalist is just an expression. The phrase might as well mean "top country female" or "top country male," because I don't think people rave about Tim McGraw, Kenny Chesney, and Gretchen Wilson's vocal abilities, just to name a few recent winners. Seriously, if the primary concern was vocal, why hasn't Martina won every year (well, before Carrie came along)? She's always had amazing pipes. Moreover, what if Carrie had a year where she recorded an entire album of Bob That Head quality songs? She'd still have an amazing voice, so by the definitions some of you have, it sounds like you think she should still win in such a scenario. If the only criteria is voice, I don't even see the point to having the award, because you can be 99.9% sure that Carrie's going to have a better vocal performance than her competition. Every single year. With that said, I don't see Taylor unseating Carrie this year, for a couple of reasons. First, Carrie's already basically staked her territory there, and as the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. She is a good ambassador for the genre. Second, as long as both are commercial giants, I do think some people will use perceived vocal ability as a tiebreaker of sorts. But the key word there is tiebreaker. There are a lot of other things that are considered first and it's not at all "a joke" for Taylor to have a legitimate shot at the award (this year or future years). can i say love another of your posts? i've given a similar argument several times at other boards. the Vocalist award encompasses several factors. vocals is one of the primary factors. the argument that i get back is that there has to be a certain level of vocal talent, and some deem certain artists not meeting that level, and hence should be automatically not considered for the award. i dont think there should be a litmus test of any kind, where if you fail, youre automatically out, no matter how well you do in the other factors.
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Post by carriefan0209 on Feb 15, 2009 12:11:01 GMT -5
Of course it encompasses several factors. But look at the title? Vocalist. Vocals play a much larger role in giving out the award than artistry, methinks.
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drock89
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Post by drock89 on Feb 15, 2009 12:51:08 GMT -5
Of course it encompasses several factors. But look at the title? Vocalist. Vocals play a much larger role in giving out the award than artistry, methinks. I think you're looking too far into it. Vocalist is used as another word for singer. It's not who's the best singer, necessarily, but who's the best female artist in the country genre.
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DCXfan
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Post by DCXfan on Feb 15, 2009 13:16:53 GMT -5
Of course it encompasses several factors. But look at the title? Vocalist. Vocals play a much larger role in giving out the award than artistry, methinks. I think you're looking too far into it. Vocalist is used as another word for singer. It's not who's the best singer, necessarily, but who's the best female artist in the country genre. Exactly. Again, I'm pretty certain an award that placed a much higher priority on vocals than artistry wouldn't have been given to Tim McGraw and Kenny Chesney three times in the past decade. There are only a few truly elite voices in Nashville, and if there were a certain litmus test, you'd only have a couple of males and females truly eligible for the award. Instead, you've had a very, very wide array of winners. Among males in the last 10 years: McGraw, Chesney, Urban, Paisley, Keith, Jackson. Among females in the past 10 years: Underwood, Evans, Wilson, McBride, Hill. And, surprise! — there's almost an exact correlation between the peak of those artists' commercial success and when they won the award. If you have a great year as an artist with great songs, recent history shows you're a serious candidate, regardless of what note you can hit.
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Post by 43dudleyvillas on Feb 15, 2009 13:17:06 GMT -5
Of course it encompasses several factors. But look at the title? Vocalist. Vocals play a much larger role in giving out the award than artistry, methinks. False opposition, in my view. Vocal ability is about a good deal more than power. I don't think Martina, Trisha and Carrie's wins have come primarily because they have great voices...it's the combination of their technical prowess (tone, control, pitch sense, and power) with their interpretive skill (which is an important artistic element), coupled, of course, with the right songs. To the extent that Taylor's vocals are considered a liability, it's both an issue of technical elements -and- interpretative skill, in my view. While I would agree Gretchen doesn't have the world's strongest voice from either standpoint, I don't think her voice was considered a liability in the same way. Besides that, I think Gretchen was the beneficiary of the perception that she was at the forefront of a movement that could bring an outlaw element back into country music. Of course, that also goes to show that factors other than vocal ability, commercial impact and quality of music can impact these vocalist races. I don't see anyone seriously arguing that the vocalist races are one-dimensional assessments. After all, voting is individual, and although there is a collective outcome, it doesn't reflect homogenous groupthink. Seriously, if the primary concern was vocal, why hasn't Martina won every year (well, before Carrie came along)? She's always had amazing pipes. The thing is, there are people inside and outside of the ACM and CMA voting bodies who believe that is what should have happened. I remember Peter Cooper of the Tennessean making that very argument about Martina a few years back. So the element is there to at least some degree; how it manifests itself in any given year depends on a constellation of factors (storylines, who has released what, memorable live performances, commercial impact, quality of music, etc.). I think that, by and large, the list of winners in the Female Vocalist category suggests that vocal ability (technical and interpretive) is far more than merely a tiebreaker for many of these voters in choosing a winner. It is by no means the only consideration, but it seems to matter to voters. I do agree that it seems like more of an uphill climb for someone like Taylor to win a Female Vocalist award as long as the likes of Carrie, Martina and Miranda are making enough of a commercial and artistic impact. Carrie and Martina have established themselves in this category, and I think voters are eager to reward Miranda with her first Female Vocalist win on the strength of her overall artistry (including vocal) at some point. I don't think that the technical aspects of vocals matter as much in the Male Vocalist races. If they did, it seems to me that the likes of Alan Jackson and Toby Keith would be more dominant, although Keith Urban is a great interpretive singer. I also think there's a different dynamic at play with the males because they typically dominate other categories, like Album and Entertainer of the Year. It seems to me that voters spread their votes around so that they can reward several of the genre's top males in those categories, and that means that the way that they vote in the Male Vocalist category tends to differ from the way that they vote for the Female Vocalist category. I feel like the result is that the Male Vocalist is the guy whose quality of music and interpretation registered highest, while Entertainer of the Year is the guy who made the most impact live and Album of the Year tends (with the occasional exception) to go to the guy whose output is considered most consistent.
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Feb 15, 2009 13:40:43 GMT -5
Seriously, what if Carrie had a year where she recorded an entire album of Bob That Head quality songs? LOL
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DCXfan
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Post by DCXfan on Feb 15, 2009 13:42:41 GMT -5
I think that, by and large, the list of winners in the Female Vocalist category suggests that vocal ability (technical and interpretive) is far more than merely a tiebreaker for many of these voters in choosing a winner. It is by no means the only consideration, but it seems to matter to voters. I absolutely agree, but I was referring to "tiebreaker" in the context of technical vocal ability alone (i.e. the "litmus test" jeff made reference to). I apologize if that wasn't clear. Personally (and I'm not trying to start a fan war with this, I hope you guys know I don't support that), I find Taylor to be one of the best interpretative vocalists in the genre among females. Now, I'm not presenting that as fact — I know that's only my opinion. But the point is that being a strong interpretative vocalist is independent from simply having a big voice, which is the vibe I had picked up on from a lot of posts — my apologies if I misinterpreted. Taylor doesn't have a big, powerful voice like Carrie and Martina — that much is fact. But the rest is subjective, including interpretative performance, and I don't think there's a prerequisite for the award that Taylor doesn't meet. By the way, females have won the last two album of the year awards, so I'm not as convinced as you are that that the dynamics of the male vocalist process are different.
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what
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Post by what on Feb 15, 2009 15:45:48 GMT -5
By the way, females have won the last two album of the year awards wow, thanks for reminding us that. i totally forgot abt it. maybe bec were used to seeing males win and dominate that category for long. not just by winning, but the nominees themselves have mostly been male artists' albums. and the last two album awards have been bet carrie and miranda, two of my fave female artists right now. awesome!
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storm
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Post by storm on Feb 15, 2009 16:54:36 GMT -5
IDEA - what if the ACM lets the fans vote only for album of the year instead of ruining the entertainer and new artist categories???? Or they could just keep every category prestigous and leave the fan-voting to the CMT awards! :o AMEN BROTHER.
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jeff
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Post by jeff on Feb 15, 2009 17:32:26 GMT -5
i'll just like to add that i am glad there is quite a bit of subjectivity involved in the giving out of these awards. most things about an artist are subjective. if the awards are so predictable that they award based on who's got the bigger voice, there is no need for nominations and all that. we all already have a pretty good idea who have the big voices and who do not. Of course it encompasses several factors. But look at the title? Vocalist. Vocals play a much larger role in giving out the award than artistry, methinks. I think you're looking too far into it. Vocalist is used as another word for singer. It's not who's the best singer, necessarily, but who's the best female artist in the country genre. when i read your statement, i was thinking, how then is the 'vocalist' award different from the 'entertainer' award
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jptexas
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Post by jptexas on Feb 15, 2009 17:37:50 GMT -5
I think that, by and large, the list of winners in the Female Vocalist category suggests that vocal ability (technical and interpretive) is far more than merely a tiebreaker for many of these voters in choosing a winner. It is by no means the only consideration, but it seems to matter to voters. I absolutely agree, but I was referring to "tiebreaker" in the context of technical vocal ability alone (i.e. the "litmus test" jeff made reference to). I apologize if that wasn't clear. Personally (and I'm not trying to start a fan war with this, I hope you guys know I don't support that), I find Taylor to be one of the best interpretative vocalists in the genre among females. Now, I'm not presenting that as fact — I know that's only my opinion. But the point is that being a strong interpretative vocalist is independent from simply having a big voice, which is the vibe I had picked up on from a lot of posts — my apologies if I misinterpreted. Taylor doesn't have a big, powerful voice like Carrie and Martina — that much is fact. But the rest is subjective, including interpretative performance, and I don't think there's a prerequisite for the award that Taylor doesn't meet.By the way, females have won the last two album of the year awards, so I'm not as convinced as you are that that the dynamics of the male vocalist process are different. While I agree that Taylor's voice does fit her songs and that distinctive style, she does have a habit of singing off key live. Although all the other factors will be included in receiving a female vocalist award, that one factor IMO, is a non-starter. As long as Carrie, Miranda, and others continue to release good songs with good vocals, they should be in the front running for the FVOTY awards. It's not just about how good you record something in the studio, but how well you interpret what you recorded in front of a live audience. But, that's just me.
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Feb 15, 2009 18:03:10 GMT -5
taylor sings better live when she isn't in front of a huge audience
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 15, 2009 19:46:44 GMT -5
[/li][li]who will win female artist of the year - Taylor or Carrie? That category is gonna be close this year for the first time in a while...I think Carrie still pulls it out...although by CMA time it could be Taylor.[/quote] I don't think it's close or that Taylor will be winning soon. For one, it's pretty widely perceived that Taylor is a weak vocalist. For another, it's also pretty clear to me that she isn't as loved in the industry as she is outside of it. Notice Taylor still hasn't really gotten major noms at the CMAs or ACMs (just the one ACM nod for "Our Song" I think), and she has been shut out of the country categories at the Grammys. The industry will use her for her popularity, but she isn't going to win much. If Shania - who is a superior vocalist to Taylor - couldn't win much during her heyday, I don't see Taylor winning much (especially when a commonly accepted great vocalist like Carrie is around).
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drock89
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Post by drock89 on Feb 15, 2009 20:48:24 GMT -5
I think you're looking too far into it. Vocalist is used as another word for singer. It's not who's the best singer, necessarily, but who's the best female artist in the country genre. when i read your statement, i was thinking, how then is the 'vocalist' award different from the 'entertainer' award I think the "Entertainer" is just a co-ed version. I really don't see any differences. As has been pointed out, voters will look at vocal ability, vocal interpretations, and commercial success. I think the reason why Shania has not won "Female Vocalist" but has won "Entertainer" is because "Entertainer" is leaned towards commercial where as "Vocalist" is leaned towards, obviously, vocals. But in my opinion, vocals isn't who can hit the highest notes for the longest time. Some times the most powerful performances (Natalie Maines on "Top of the World" or "You Were Mine" come to mind) don't have the notes that "Where Would You Be?" or "So Small" have. And just to add one more thought - bad vocalists don't win "Entertainer." Artists who aren't commercial successes don't win "Vocalist" awards, either. This isn't the Grammy's.
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Feb 15, 2009 21:00:26 GMT -5
Very confident about winning:
Top Vocal Group Rascal Flatts
Top Vocal Duo Sugarland
Top Female Vocalist Carrie Underwood
Pretty confident about winning:
Entertainer of the Year Kenny Chesney
Top Male Vocalist Brad Paisley
Video of the Year Just A Dream - Carrie Underwood
Jamey Johnson also will probably walk away with a couple awards...
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musicrocks
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Post by musicrocks on Feb 16, 2009 0:30:09 GMT -5
Not to be repetitive, but I'm really excited for Carrie! I think she's gonna win EotY. In regards to the Female Vocalist discussion, Martina has one this award three years in a row (01-03) and has been nominated every year after up till this one (i think), so her not being nominated isn't a huge disappointment. Second, I think whether it's at the ACMs or the CMAs, the Female Vocalist award should be won by the person with the best vocals. And I think Carrie is one of the best vocalists period to grace country in recent years....so Carrie should win Female Vocalist ( but I do like Taylor and Miranda but I think Carrie is just better(I hope Miranda wins Single of the Year))
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sbp17
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Post by sbp17 on Feb 16, 2009 9:57:24 GMT -5
I think people equate overpowering vocals with great vocals, which is why you see Carrie, Martina and Trisha always used as examples of the top female 'vocalist'. Not necessarily synonymous. Alison Krauss and LeAnn Womack are just a couple of examples of artists who don't blow out speakers but are incredible vocalists.
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Feb 16, 2009 14:26:37 GMT -5
Not to be repetitive, but I'm really excited for Carrie! I think she's gonna win EotY. i love carrie, but don't get your hopes up...i'm happy just to see her nominated in the category!
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 16, 2009 14:53:51 GMT -5
I think people equate overpowering vocals with great vocals, which is why you see Carrie, Martina and Trisha always used as examples of the top female 'vocalist'. Not necessarily synonymous. Alison Krauss and LeAnn Womack are just a couple of examples of artists who don't blow out speakers but are incredible vocalists. That's a valid point, but Taylor doesn't even belong in the Krauss/Womack group. I would say Gretchen Wilson winning both the ACM and CMA Female Vocalist shows they are willing to reward a not-great singer, but she had no real competition that year. Taylor may have been the biggest country female in the past year, but Carrie had a bunch of country #1s, a successful tour, etc. Throw in her being considered a great singer, and it makes the choice easy for voters. If Taylor was the only successful female in country right now, then I could see her winning despite her thin vocals and pitch problems.
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lullaby
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Post by lullaby on Feb 16, 2009 15:11:21 GMT -5
taylor sings better live when she isn't in front of a huge audience So do I when I sing in my shower :o
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robrt30
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Post by robrt30 on Feb 16, 2009 15:51:52 GMT -5
Pretty confident about winning:Video of the Year Just A Dream - Carrie Underwood Really? I'd be very surprised if Brad Paisley doesn't win this one.
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Feb 16, 2009 21:37:28 GMT -5
^ yeah that's the closest category that i picked.....love story has a chance also
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Gabe
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Post by Gabe on Feb 16, 2009 22:40:46 GMT -5
The nominees for Top New Female Vocalist are a joke!
And I don't care who, but someone other than Kenny Chesney needs to win Entertainer of the Year! I'm sick of having him win year after year. *crosses fingers for Carrie*
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Feb 16, 2009 23:22:26 GMT -5
And I don't care who, but someone other than Kenny Chesney needs to win Entertainer of the Year! I'm sick of having him win year after year. *crosses fingers for Carrie* if somebody were to beat him it would be Brad Paisley, especially after the "Paisley Party" tour...
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Feb 16, 2009 23:32:10 GMT -5
Paisley is certainly due to win EOTY; between his concerts, finishing second to Chesney as 2008's most played artist at country radio per Mediabase, and everything else, this could be the year that he finally gets the EOTY award.
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someguy
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Post by someguy on Feb 17, 2009 0:01:19 GMT -5
There are a few categories that could potentially go to 'upsets' this year. I agree that Brad Paisley is a definite possibility to win Entertainer this year. Not that Kenny doesn't still have an excellent shot, but he has won that award an awful lot lately. Of course there's a chance Female Vocalist could go to an upset, but that has already been discussed at length in this thread. I also feel that Rascal Flatts aren't 100% locks to win for Vocal Group. They had an off year, and Lady Antebellum have a lot of buzz around them, so I wouldn't be shocked to see them pull off an upset in that category.
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Lee
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Post by Lee on Feb 17, 2009 0:07:41 GMT -5
The nominees for Top New Female Vocalist are a joke! And I don't care who, but someone other than Kenny Chesney needs to win Entertainer of the Year! I'm sick of having him win year after year. *crosses fingers for Carrie* I really like Ashton Shepherds album. She may not have 'Carrie Underwood Commercial Success,' but her debut single went Top 20 and her follow-up almost went Top 20. She actually fared quite well considering how few women get played on radio. I would really like to see her win. Hough seems to be her big competition and is a quite a bit more popular due to DWTS. I think much more of Ashton as a musician though. I hope she wins. I think her odds are hurt since it is fan voted.
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