Ke$haStan
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Post by Ke$haStan on May 25, 2010 18:59:07 GMT -5
What rank are they?
I'm really starting to get into this!
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strawberries
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Post by strawberries on May 25, 2010 19:01:39 GMT -5
Wuuuuuuut? You can find a whole set of facts to "prove" that either Kris or Adam has done better. The fact that you can do that means it's a wash. Adam gets more press attention because he's flashier, and that's basically it. You can't say Adam is categorically "better" because that's opinion. You can say you like Adam better, just as I can say I like Kris better. You can say Kris's performances were super dull on Idol, just as I can say I didn't enjoy a single one of Adam's performances. Neither opinion really matters. In the end, both guys are doing OK. Not super fantastic awesome, but OK. Cause this need to be quoted...again. Pardon me if I actually wait until his album is released to judge the quality and not only based it on the pop sales. Whether it does well or not wont mean it wasn't a good or great album. Some of the best albums out there have never done anything on pop and has sold in their own right. If Kris can make his mark on HAC and have some pop crossovers he will be fine. After all they do buy albums. The jury is still out on him, Adam, Cook etc. Kris aint the only one, this biz is unpredictable. However he WILL make a second major album and it will be on Jive. Still feel while underwhelming he's done, something that Jive will keep him., LLWD going platinum helped with that.
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Rodze
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Post by Rodze on May 25, 2010 19:18:35 GMT -5
If Adam had clearly been more successful, this debate wouldn't even take place (and his stans wouldn't need to come to this thread on a daily basis trying to demean everything Kris does).
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fluffyb
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Post by fluffyb on May 25, 2010 19:28:42 GMT -5
NY Times estimated Kris's winners earnings at $650K just from idol and his record contract alone regardless of how many CDs they sold. www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/arts/television/24idol.htmlAny Idol winner is offered huge endorsement deals and contracts after the show, so it's not surprising that Kris has earned huge money so far, but it doesn't mean he is making huge money for 19E and JIVE. Idol winner is first and foremost expected to be commercially successful and their first album usually sell at least a million. But Kris's album is already off the BB200 and I just donft see it going gold. And since most of Idol's second albums take a nosedive, I don't see decent investment and pushing for Kris's second album if 19E and JIVE don't see the momentary payout. If Adam had clearly been more successful, this debate wouldn't even take place (and his stans wouldn't need to come to this thread on a daily basis trying to demean everything Kris does). Like it or not, Adam is clearly more successful than Kris. Adam's album and single have outsold Kris's worldwide. I can understand that Kris's fans doesn't want to accept it, but denying the fact is silly.
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pnobelysk
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Post by pnobelysk on May 25, 2010 19:52:07 GMT -5
NY Times estimated Kris's winners earnings at $650K just from idol and his record contract alone regardless of how many CDs they sold. www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/arts/television/24idol.htmlAny Idol winner is offered huge endorsement deals and contracts after the show, so it's not surprising that Kris has earned huge money so far, but it doesn't mean he is making huge money for 19E and JIVE. Idol winner is first and foremost expected to be commercially successful and their first album usually sell at least a million. But Kris's album is already off the BB200 and I just donft see it going gold. And since most of Idol's second albums take a nosedive, I don't see decent investment and pushing for Kris's second album if 19E and JIVE don't see the momentary payout. If Adam had clearly been more successful, this debate wouldn't even take place (and his stans wouldn't need to come to this thread on a daily basis trying to demean everything Kris does). Like it or not, Adam is clearly more successful than Kris. Adam's album and single have outsold Kris's worldwide. I can understand that Kris's fans doesn't want to accept it, but denying the fact is silly. was kris really promoted that much worldwide? in the US id say they are about even
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soundUPsceneDOWN
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Post by soundUPsceneDOWN on May 25, 2010 20:18:02 GMT -5
The whole "Adam has done better worldwide" meme isn't relevant to this thread (actually, Adam Lambert isn't relevant to this thread... but whatever, right?). You can't sell albums in a country in which you are not released or promoted. So you can't do worse than somebody else when you're not even in the race. Adam and Kris aren't on the same label. Adam and Kris aren't in the same genre of music. They are promoted differently. Some types of genres sell better overseas than others. Certainly Carrie Underwood is aware of this, as she has negligible international sales. US rock/pop isn't as promoted overseas as straight up pop, and especially dance pop.
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strawberries
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Post by strawberries on May 25, 2010 20:29:19 GMT -5
uhh soundscene can you kindly just add my name to your posts about this subject from now on? And bringing in this tired argument over and over again is silly, take it somewhere else pls.
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Kworb
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Post by Kworb on May 25, 2010 20:33:32 GMT -5
Yeah and if 19/Sony are so deeply unhappy with Kris it's not like they'd be that happy with how Adam has done. In that sense Kris and Adam fans are in the same boat, just hoping for another hit and continued success. Worry about the future, not about last year's Idol finale.
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fluffyb
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Post by fluffyb on May 25, 2010 20:58:36 GMT -5
was kris really promoted that much worldwide? in the US id say they are about even Adamfs album has sold over twice as many as Krisfs so they are not even. It's a simple math thing. And the bottom line is that selling an album brings in more money than selling a single. You can't sell albums in a country in which you are not released or promoted. So you can't do worse than somebody else when you're not even in the race. American Idol is well-known in Canada and popular Idol contestants usually sell well there but Kris's album didn't even reach top40 in official Canadian chart.
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ZAYN
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Post by ZAYN on May 25, 2010 21:15:43 GMT -5
LOL I was just remembering last time the adam fans invaded KRIS' post. It was because adam caused a scene at whatever show and his song was flopping and there was no "wywfm" on the chart...the only thing they could do was come diss the winner who was...winning.
Then wywfm started to climb and they silenced as their little fingers had something to occupy their time...
And now I thought I'd go check his new single to see how it's doing and apparently that's why they're back since THE TRUTH is doing great on HAC and starting out on here and so this is all they have to do. Sad.
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soundUPsceneDOWN
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Post by soundUPsceneDOWN on May 25, 2010 21:23:05 GMT -5
uhh soundscene can you kindly just add my name to your posts about this subject from now on? And bringing in this tired argument over and over again is silly, take it somewhere else pls. Haha, sure thing! ;)
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desertfloods
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Post by desertfloods on May 25, 2010 21:26:17 GMT -5
LOL I was just remembering last time the adam fans invaded KRIS' post. It was because adam caused a scene at whatever show and his song was flopping and there was no "wywfm" on the chart...the only thing they could do was come diss the winner who was...winning. Then wywfm started to climb and they silenced as their little fingers had something to occupy their time... And now I thought I'd go check his new single to see how it's doing and apparently that's why they're back since THE TRUTH is doing great on HAC and starting out on here and so this is all they have to do. Sad. If they don't put down Kris enough, someone else won't appear as successful ;)
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guinevere79
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Post by guinevere79 on May 25, 2010 22:01:56 GMT -5
If Adam fans start concern trolling or dissing or belittling Kris’s achievements, it can only mean two things: Kris must be doing good, or nothing is happening much in Adam land.
The reverse is also true.
It’s the principal tenet in this fandom, apparently.
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fluffyb
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Post by fluffyb on May 25, 2010 22:13:42 GMT -5
I didn't know only Kris Allen stans can post comments in this thread Kris is an Idol winner so it's natural that Idol fans discuss his sales and what they portend for his career. The thing is the winner's album usually is expected to sell at least a million. I've never seen a winner that can't have a platinum debut album remain under contract. Kris has had a hit song but it did not help album sales. Maybe Kris is a male version of Jordin and a single selling artist. Jordinfs singles have had far bigger sales though.
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realityBITES
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Post by realityBITES on May 25, 2010 22:21:57 GMT -5
Yay for more fan wars! /end sarcasm
No way should 19 or RCA or whoever expect that the winner is going to sell a million. Times have changed. The most successful alum from Idol struggle now to get to 1-2 mil. It is different times. 500K, IMO, would be a success. And honestly, hopefully one of the singles they release for Kris will get him to that level. He's had a hit single, and he has yet to perform any of his own songs on a huge platform. So hopefully the Idol performance will kick-start things in the right direction.
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MOWE
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Post by MOWE on May 25, 2010 22:27:46 GMT -5
Daughtry set an unwanted trend for these "rock" guys. I remember when you weren't allowed to play instruments on AI. I doubt that Kris Allen would be where he is now if that was the case during the season he won. I expect both sophomore efforts from Cook & Kris Allen to flop tbh. Allen's AI buzz will be gone, and I doubt the material will be strong enough to hold it's own on pop. As for Cook, he needs to get into a band (ala Daughtry) if he's to rekindle his career. Pop doesn't get him. Let's try rock, I say. I don't know. I doubt that they'll BOTH flop. They might, they might not. Depends on a lot of things (quality of the music, state of the industry, etc). I do have to disagree with you about Kris Allen's Idol buzz. Kris didn't benefit much from Idol buzz IMO. Most of the buzz went to Adam. There wasn't much left over from Kris. The albums and digital signles he's sold were based largely on the quality of the material and word of mouth IMO.
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fluffyb
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Post by fluffyb on May 25, 2010 22:39:59 GMT -5
The albums and digital signles he's sold were based largely on the quality of the material and word of mouth IMO. I don't know how you can dismiss all the promotion and support Kris has been provided as the Idol winner (the radio and the tv appearances, the jingle balls, GMA Summer concert series, NYE show, etc.) in comparison to other new artists and the fact that he was exposed to 20 million people a week for the length of the show.
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soundUPsceneDOWN
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Post by soundUPsceneDOWN on May 25, 2010 23:09:28 GMT -5
Kris obviously benefited from the exposure Idol gave him, but I think it was less so than for previous winners. Kris's buzz coming off Idol was probably akin to Jordin's buzz coming off Idol. The difference, however, was that Jordin managed some pretty hefty radio success, due in no small part to No Air. Not every radio hit sells an album, but some, like No Air, do. I think Jordin sold most of her first album off No Air. Without No Air I think she would have fared similarly to Kris (accounting for the decline in album sales from 2007 to 2009). In that sense, the material made the difference. Jordin had little buzz coming off Idol, but had a super smash radio hit that sold most of her first album. Kris hasn't had that.
Nobody is arguing (I don't think) that Kris hasn't had better promotion or opportunities than most new artists. But as far as I can tell, the discussion has been about his buzz as compared to other people coming off of Idol.
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strawberries
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Post by strawberries on May 25, 2010 23:27:39 GMT -5
If Adam fans start concern trolling or dissing or belittling Kris’s achievements, it can only mean two things: Kris must be doing good, or nothing is happening much in Adam land. The reverse is also true. It’s the principal tenet in this fandom, apparently. I noticed that with llwd lol. If you go back and look at the thread at the beginning when it was slow out the gate you got this same type of stuff lol,. Once it started moving up and gasp looking like a hit, there was silence which spoke volumes, the same trend might be happening here. Hope that bodes well for TT. No one is saying that and I'm no stan not too fond of that word anyhow, Im a fan and of Adam as well, yes its possible. It just gets old with the comparisons which sometimes makes no sense. Not to mention when you don't come in this thread to ever actually talk about his single but whenever Adam name enters the mix..some might see that as trolling or just trying to stir the pot. Is there some unwritten rule that the winner has to go platinum., never heard of it unless that only applies to Kris? And I guess Kris is about to break that rule cause if some think Jive will drop him after this album, it's not going to happen. The industry is different, you don't know what they spent on his album and most likely got some profit even if it's not much. Not to mention Kris is a low maintenance artist who also co wrote majority of his album, they didn't exactly bring in huge producers/writers that would have cost them dollars. Sometimes its a simple matter of investment and return, yes Kris got the standard promo for a winner, yes standard but nothing beyond that. I do think he needs another hit though but Jive will have no one to blame but themselves because I still think they should have gone with other choices then this one. However if TT surprises, I still think it will take a while but he can still go gold. After all the album doesn't disappear off the shelves after this year, don't know why people forget that. And a good second album can help his first sales even if its a little bump.
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desertfloods
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Post by desertfloods on May 25, 2010 23:27:47 GMT -5
The albums and digital signles he's sold were based largely on the quality of the material and word of mouth IMO. I don't know how you can dismiss all the promotion and support Kris has been provided as the Idol winner (the radio and the tv appearances, the jingle balls, GMA Summer concert series, NYE show, etc.) in comparison to other new artists and the fact that he was exposed to 20 million people a week for the length of the show. Yes, he got the normal winner promotion, but you forgot that in all other seasons, the winner didn't have a runner-up whose promotion far overshadows the promotion for any Idol contestants. For Kris's level of hype (or lack of), I think he did good with a platinum single already.
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ZAYN
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Post by ZAYN on May 25, 2010 23:57:27 GMT -5
Maybe Kris is a male version of Jordin and a single selling artist. Jordinfs singles have had far bigger sales though. HELLO he's only had 1 single and it sold what 1.4 million? His second single hasn't even gone for adds yet!
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atgs
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Post by atgs on May 25, 2010 23:59:35 GMT -5
Kris was expected to flop. Adam was going be the next big internation star. Kris album flopped but he had a hit single. Adam hasn't become any big international superstar (or even US superstar) and he has an album with ok sales, a flop single and a hit single. In the end they're both sort of equal, but Adam will be remembered as the guy who didn't as good as expected and Kris as the guy who did better.
I think it's interesting people say Adam has more staying power... I actually think artists like Kris usually have more chances of staying around and doing music and playing concerts even if they don't hit it big. Artists like Adam are usually really big or are on broadway. There isn't such a middle term.
Anyway, they'll probably both have flop singles with The Truth and IIHY, and fans will keep fighting anyway. And the next battle will be about tours. And then it will be about something else. And that's how it works with american idol winners and runner ups till one or both become really irrelevant. Like someone said before, the fact that after a year people are still having these debates just shows one is not doing much better than the other. You sure won't see Kelly VS Justin arguments. Or Fantasia vs Dianna. Or Taylor VS Daughtry. Or Bo VS Carrie...
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fluffyb
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Post by fluffyb on May 26, 2010 0:39:42 GMT -5
Kris was expected to flop. Adam was going be the next big internation star. Kris album flopped but he had a hit single. Adam hasn't become any big international superstar (or even US superstar) and he has an album with ok sales, a flop single and a hit single. In the end they're both sort of equal, but Adam will be remembered as the guy who didn't as good as expected and Kris as the guy who did better Who did expect Kris to flop? I remember that there were lots of Idol fans saying Kris will sell better than Adam because his style and image is much more mainstream. It doesn't matter Adam is a superstar or not, Kris should sell better as an idol winner. If you want to be some indie singer-songwriter then what's the point in winning an American Idol. Er, those arguments happened YEARS AGO. There was Archuleta vs. Cook stuff last year and I think there are still tiny wars revolving around Taylor vs. Daughtry.
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sammalone
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Post by sammalone on May 26, 2010 1:02:06 GMT -5
Kris was expected to flop. Adam was going be the next big internation star. Kris album flopped but he had a hit single. Adam hasn't become any big international superstar (or even US superstar) and he has an album with ok sales, a flop single and a hit single. In the end they're both sort of equal, but Adam will be remembered as the guy who didn't as good as expected and Kris as the guy who did better Who did expect Kris to flop? I remember that there were lots of Idol fans saying Kris will sell better than Adam because his style and image is much more mainstream. It doesn't matter Adam is a superstar or not, Kris should sell better as an idol winner. If you want to be some indie singer-songwriter then what's the point in winning an American Idol. I don't know where you were reading this, but by large, Adam was touted as the future star and Kris as the next Taylor Hicks. Regardless, this post as so many logical flaws, I don't even know where to start.
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Post by missnicolec on May 26, 2010 1:11:09 GMT -5
Honestly, in terms of promo, Adam has gotten far more. You can argue the reasons why all day and night, the fact of the matter is, he's had probably ten times the amount of media exposure that Kris has, and in all honestly it hasn't done him that much good. He's had 2 "official" singles and 3 music videos, countless television appearances and magazine covers, there's always articles about him all over the place. And he still hasn't sold platinum in his own country. Using that argument - that Adam is somehow "better" because he's getting more attention - is problematic for exactly that reason. For all of the buzz he gets, it's not even enough to get him a top 10 radio single on his own - he couldn't even hit top 10 on pop and he only managed it on Billboard because he spent 2 days on the biggest show on TV. It's not a sign that he's about to get dropped, but he certainly isn't the "international superstar" his management has been trying to make him, at least not yet. (And Adam's media attention is rarely for anything related to his actual music, so again, trying to use that to prove he's a better artist? Not a good argument, IMO. Just like I wouldn't argue that John Mayer's tabloid coverage makes him better than, say, Jason Mraz - the media wants certain things in the people they cover.) Kris's sales, on the other hand, aren't good for an Idol winner. That's just how it is. But he's not going to get dropped Taylor Hicks was the only one that didn't get a second, and that was his own doing, as anyone who's familiar with his situation knows, and he was signed to a different label anyway so you can't make comparisons. But Kris was still the second-highest grossing artist for Jive last year, and he's had one hit single already with a second just releasing. He's not being dropped anytime soon, especially with Jive's attitude; they very rarely drop artists. A lot will depend on how that single does, but that won't.
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desertfloods
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Post by desertfloods on May 26, 2010 1:16:09 GMT -5
Er, those arguments happened YEARS AGO. There was Archuleta vs. Cook stuff last year and I think there are still tiny wars revolving around Taylor vs. Daughtry. LOL! Are you saying all those Bo Vs Carrie, Taylor vs Daughtry fanwars still happen more than ONE year after their season? I'd sure love to see the valid arguments for those. I agree with those who said Kris and Adam are pretty much equal right now (buzz vs promotions vs sales vs radio).
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fluffyb
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Post by fluffyb on May 26, 2010 1:38:45 GMT -5
I agree with those who said Kris and Adam are pretty much equal right now (buzz vs promotions vs sales vs radio). Adam's single reached TOP 10 in 8 different countries and his album reached TOP 20 in 7 different countries. He has been nominated for The MuchMusic Video Awards and will do tour concert in Europe this year. The fact is that Adam is doing better than Kris worldwide and that was my point. I don't understand why some people keep denying this simple fact . It's silly.
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earache
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Post by earache on May 26, 2010 1:50:04 GMT -5
One of my favorite things about Adam's crazy fans is their ability to observe, retain and bring up selective things.
Eg. 1: Oh, Adam's so great that he's asked to sing a song for a huge movie. People are going to watch this movie just to hear the song alone. Adam's debut song is gonna be a hit.
The song flops. Crazy Adam fans: Oh, it's not Adam's song. That can't be considered his debut. Just you wait, FYE is going to blast the world!
Eg. 2 LOL Kris's 1st single is doing so badly, it's so obviously a flop even tho' it's just been released to radio and hasn't had time to climb. Adam's FYE will sell a million downloads in the first day.
Oh well, we all know how that turned out.
But my fav will always be how they compared Adam's THIRD single WWFM with Kris's FIRST single and when WWFM finally overtook LLWD when it was on its way down!!! after a gazillion years on the charts, they are the first to crow - oh, adam overtook Kris. Srsly.
Oh and apparently Kris was doing small radio shows cos he couldn't get anything else unlike their superstar, Adam. Until radio refused to play FYE and suddenly doing these radio shows became "pretty important" and not "beneath Adam".
I have nothing against Adam - love WWFM but I have an inherent aversion to people with blinkers over their eyes and there are a lot of them in Adam's fandom.
Will we ever know how many albums Adam sold because of interest in him being the "Gay Idol"? Could Kris sell more albums by getting caught in an affair / scandal which gets the tabloids referencing him every other day? Sure.
Someone said earlier that Kris is selling based on word of mouth and people's enjoyment of his music which is a good basis for a lasting career.
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desertfloods
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Post by desertfloods on May 26, 2010 1:53:48 GMT -5
I agree with those who said Kris and Adam are pretty much equal right now (buzz vs promotions vs sales vs radio). Adam's single reached TOP 10 in 8 different countries and his album reached TOP 20 in 7 different countries. He has been nominated for The MuchMusic Video Awards and will do tour concert in Europe this year. The fact is that Adam is doing better than Kris worldwide and that was my point. I don't understand why some people keep denying this simple fact . It's silly. LOL nobody is denying it. You're the one who conveniently ignore the fact that Adam is promoted to other countries while Kris is not, except for the few AI-crazed Asian countries (which Adam mostly covered too). Heck, Kris's album and single are still not even available in some countries yet. It doesn't take a genius to see why Adam does better than Kris outside of the US.
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earache
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Post by earache on May 26, 2010 1:54:47 GMT -5
Also, since I never go to Adam's threads (you know, I only go to threads of artists I'm interested in - novel idea), the presence of Adam stans here talking bad abt Kris is giving me the impression that Adam's new single isn't doing very well. See? I, too, can make assumptions without knowing the facts to back it up.
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