Name change for Hot AC?

[KelownaGuy20]

I guess my HotAC station is improperly programmed, 'cause we spin "In Da Club" in our nighttime recurrent category.

Then again, I'm in Canada, and that seems to make a world of difference.

[atlantaboy]

musicfanpete said:

marv said:

Folks, the probability of a properly-programmed Hot AC station playing a track by 50 Cent or Akon are about as high as the chance that your local Urban would add 'Complicated' or 'When I'm Gone' to their gold library, let alone spinning the lates from Nickelback or Linkin Park.

In other words, non-existent.

Well, apparently some improperly programmed Hot AC stations played "Don't Matter" by Akon, as this song peaked within the Hot AC top 30 a few weeks ago. Why, I have no clue! But thankfully, none of the Hot AC stations in the Chicago or Milwaukee areas played that song!

Of course, WTMX in Chicago is playing "Umbrella" by Rihanna very heavily. I'm interested in how their listeners are reacting to this song!

KYSR/Los Angeles also just added "Umbrella" and they're a modern-alternative leaning Hot AC!!

[atlantaboy]

kelownaguy19 said:

I guess my HotAC station is improperly programmed, 'cause we spin "In Da Club" in our nighttime recurrent category.

Then again, I'm in Canada, and that seems to make a world of difference.

There are actually a whole bunch of smaller-market Hot AC's that spin rap at night (WDAQ/Danbury CT) is one

[mrclimbfall20]

That's why I think Hot AC should change its name since all these Hot AC stations are switching up with their song selections. AC can easily take its place since they are basically the same already.

[Hot AC Archiver]

marv said:

The positioning statement for Hot AC stations from coast to coast which has been used almost non-stop since the format's inception in the mid-nineties has usually been a derivative of 'today's best music without the rap and hip-hop', which explains the Hot AC format perfectly.

This is precisely why I would listen to Hot AC...to get away from the rap. I quit listening to the WZPL because they occasionally play tracks from Eminem, 50 Cent, etc. I'm sort of trapped because I can't listen to HACs that play rap but I don't want to be forced into AC either. Luckily there's a small market HAC I can listen to (only in the car b/c it's too far away) that plays current HAC hits and no rap/hip-hop.

[Kid Pulse]

at40fantoo said:

marv said:

The positioning statement for Hot AC stations from coast to coast which has been used almost non-stop since the format's inception in the mid-nineties has usually been a derivative of 'today's best music without the rap and hip-hop', which explains the Hot AC format perfectly.

This is precisely why I would listen to Hot AC...to get away from the rap. I quit listening to the WZPL because they occasionally play tracks from Eminem, 50 Cent, etc. I'm sort of trapped because I can't listen to HACs that play rap but I don't want to be forced into AC either. Luckily there's a small market HAC I can listen to (only in the car b/c it's too far away) that plays current HAC hits and no rap/hip-hop.

How can a station play Eminem and 50 Cent and still be considered "Hot AC"? Just wondering.

[KelownaGuy20]

video545 said:

at40fantoo said:

This is precisely why I would listen to Hot AC...to get away from the rap. I quit listening to the WZPL because they occasionally play tracks from Eminem, 50 Cent, etc. I'm sort of trapped because I can't listen to HACs that play rap but I don't want to be forced into AC either. Luckily there's a small market HAC I can listen to (only in the car b/c it's too far away) that plays current HAC hits and no rap/hip-hop.

How can a station play Eminem and 50 Cent and still be considered "Hot AC"? Just wondering.

When you think about it, maybe if the format DID change its name to reflect it's evolution, people wouldn't complain about the type of music played.

[KelownaGuy20]

Here's my question: based on the "current" playlist of my HotAC/Adult Top 40 stations, what songs do you think aren't "format"?

I'll list these alphabetically bby artist, and list the Canadian songs in red.

Akon - Don't Matter
Amy Winehouse - Rehab
Avril Lavigne - When You're Gone
Bedouin Soundclash - Walls Fall Down
Bon Jovi - (You Want To) Make A Memory
Carrie Underwood - Before He Cheats
Chantal Kreviazuk - Ghosts Of You
Daughtry - Home
dbClifford - Don't Wanna
Elliott Yamin - Wait For You
Eva Avila - Fallin' For You
Fall Out Boy - Thnks Fr Th Mmrs
finger eleven - Paralyzer
Fergie - Big Girls Don't Cry (Personal)
Gwen Stefani - 4 In The Morning
Gym Class Heroes featuring Patrick Stump - Cupid's Chokehold
Hinder - Better Than Me
Holly McNarland - Every Single Time
Joss Stone featuring Common - Tell Me What We're Gonna Do Now
Justin Timberlake - Summer Love
k-os - Born To Run
Kelly Clarkson - Never Again
Lifehouse - First Time
Michael Bublé - Everything
Ne-Yo - Because Of You
Nelly Furtado - All Good Things (Come To An End)
Plain White T's - Hey There Delilah
Rihanna featuring Jay-Z - Umbrella
Roz Bell - Yesterday Man
Serena Ryder - Weak In The Knees
Sleddogs - Give Me A Sign
State Of Shock - Money Honey
Suzie McNeil - Believe
The Roomies - It Ain't Me Babe
Timbaland featuring Keri Hilson & D.O.E. - The Way I Are
Wil - Wedding Dress

[Slinky]

Take out the Canadian tracks and the Joss Stone and that sounds about right for a small-market American Hot AC, especially if the market lacks a CHR. Obviously not every Hot AC is that aggressive with rhythmic stuff, but it's becoming increasingly common. Some are even more rhythmic than that with songs like "Whine Up" and "Beautiful Girls" in rotation.

[Hot AC Archiver]

To be completely honest, I don't know most of the songs well enough to give you an answer.

[atlantaboy]

kelownaguy19 said:

Here's my question: based on the "current" playlist of my HotAC/Adult Top 40 stations, what songs do you think aren't "format"?

I'll list these alphabetically bby artist, and list the Canadian songs in red.

Akon - Don't Matter
Amy Winehouse - Rehab
Avril Lavigne - When You're Gone
Bedouin Soundclash - Walls Fall Down
Bon Jovi - (You Want To) Make A Memory
Carrie Underwood - Before He Cheats
Chantal Kreviazuk - Ghosts Of You
Daughtry - Home
dbClifford - Don't Wanna
Elliott Yamin - Wait For You
Eva Avila - Fallin' For You
Fall Out Boy - Thnks Fr Th Mmrs
finger eleven - Paralyzer
Fergie - Big Girls Don't Cry (Personal)
Gwen Stefani - 4 In The Morning
Gym Class Heroes featuring Patrick Stump - Cupid's Chokehold
Hinder - Better Than Me
Holly McNarland - Every Single Time
Joss Stone featuring Common - Tell Me What We're Gonna Do Now
Justin Timberlake - Summer Love
k-os - Born To Run
Kelly Clarkson - Never Again
Lifehouse - First Time
Michael Bublé - Everything
Ne-Yo - Because Of You
Nelly Furtado - All Good Things (Come To An End)
Plain White T's - Hey There Delilah
Rihanna featuring Jay-Z - Umbrella
Roz Bell - Yesterday Man
Serena Ryder - Weak In The Knees
Sleddogs - Give Me A Sign
State Of Shock - Money Honey
Suzie McNeil - Believe
The Roomies - It Ain't Me Babe
Timbaland featuring Keri Hilson & D.O.E. - The Way I Are
Wil - Wedding Dress

If a station (like the one above) plays Ne-Yo and Timbaland, they should definitely be classified as Top 40 IMO

[atlantaboy]

video545 said:

at40fantoo said:

This is precisely why I would listen to Hot AC...to get away from the rap. I quit listening to the WZPL because they occasionally play tracks from Eminem, 50 Cent, etc. I'm sort of trapped because I can't listen to HACs that play rap but I don't want to be forced into AC either. Luckily there's a small market HAC I can listen to (only in the car b/c it's too far away) that plays current HAC hits and no rap/hip-hop.

How can a station play Eminem and 50 Cent and still be considered "Hot AC"? Just wondering.

Because Mediabase is owned by Clear Channel, and Clear Channel wants to keep CHR/Pop as rhythmic as possible, probably to keep certain pop/rhythmic artists assured of having tons of #1 hits on the CHR/Pop chart

If they moved these Hot AC stations to CHR/Pop (like they should), Nickelback and Daughtry would overtake Justin Timberlake, and I don't think Clear Channel wants that

[Slinky]

atlantaboy said:

If a station (like the one above) plays Ne-Yo and Timbaland, they should definitely be classified as Top 40 IMO

Look at what they're not playing though. They're not on Party Like A Rockstar or Buy You A Drank. They're not even playing milder rhythmic tunes like Beautiful Girls and Whine Up as I mentioned above. If this station is also playing lots of 80's and 90's tunes, that's a Hot AC in my opinion.

[KelownaGuy20]

slinky said:

atlantaboy said:

If a station (like the one above) plays Ne-Yo and Timbaland, they should definitely be classified as Top 40 IMO

Look at what they're not playing though. They're not on Party Like A Rockstar or Buy You A Drank. They're not even playing milder rhythmic tunes like Beautiful Girls and Whine Up as I mentioned above. If this station is also playing lots of 80's and 90's tunes, that's a Hot AC in my opinion.

Nope, no "Party Like A Rockstar" or any of that. However, next to no 80s, and very few 90s, with a recurrent/gold playlist that mainly draws from songs from the past 7 years.

And yes, we do play "In Da Club" "Without Me" and "Mo Money, Mo Problems," and all three seem to be popular with our target demo of soccor moms.

[Marv]

There is no reason for Mediabase or anybody else to move Hot AC stations to the CHR/Pop panel because those two formats have two very different target audiences.

Hot AC=CHR/Pop for adults.

I also know that Clear Channel doesn't give a bleep about which artist has the most #1 singles at any format, so that statement also doesn't hold water.

Hot AC is, to put it bluntly, the mass-appeal format today that CHR/Pop USED to be until KPWR decapitated KIIS-FM/LA in 1987, took away a HUGE chunk of their teens, and KIIS's overreaction eventually resulted in CHR/Pop stations becoming unlistenable to the 'soccer moms', baby boomers and other adults who grew up listening to the format going back to the SIXTIES.

Clear Channel has decided that their CHR/Pop stations (depending on the market) will compete directly with their CHR/Rhythmic and Urban competitors for that 18-34 demo, which still leaves millions of adults for all of the Adult Hits, Classic Rock, Hot AC, AC, Smooth Jazz, Oldies & Country stations to go after.

If they can live with that business decision and marketing strategy, then so can the rest of us.

[Hot AC Archiver]

I would like an HAC station to still play 90s songs and an occasional 80s song.

One other problem with ZPL is that they have "No Refusal Fridays" and "No Refusal Lunches", which means they play any format songs (e.g. Rhythmic, etc). That's a turn off right there. If I wanted to hear those songs, I'd listen to the other stations.

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

There is no reason for Mediabase or anybody else to move Hot AC stations to the CHR/Pop panel because those two formats have two very different target audiences.

Hot AC=CHR/Pop for adults.

It wasn't always this way though - in the 80s and 90s there were plenty of CHR/Pop stations that catered towards 25-44 adults (especially w/ the Baby Boomers in their 30s in the 80s)

Clear Channel seems to have made this NEW decision that it does not want CHR/Pop to cater to 25-44 adults ANYMORE

If a station plays "Mo Money Mo Problems" by definition it is CHR/Pop (it's not refusing any kind of music)

There are plenty of CHR/Pop stations today that don't play "Party Like A Rockstar" (most aren't owned by Clear Channel)

Back in the 90s, there were many CHR/Pop stations that didn't play SWV, Tony! Toni! Tone!, M. C. Hammer, etc. and they were still considered CHR/Pop

[Kid Pulse]

"No Refusal Lunches"

Wow, my station has "Retro Cafe" at lunch where they play a lot of 80s music (and very rarely a 90s track).

[Slinky]

But who said Hot AC had to be about "refusing" a type of music? There's no rule that says Hot AC can't play rap. Hot AC, as Marv put it, has always been CHR for adults. At the beginning of the format in the early 90's, that meant "no rap", because adults wanted hits without the rap. Still, R&B and Pop artists like Whitney Houston, Prince, Michael Jackson, Paula Abdul, Janet Jackson, and Madonna were a BIG part of the format when it started. In the late 90's, Hot AC leaned rock because the pop acts at the time catered to kids. Adults wanted pop/rock without the teen pop and rap.

Now, we're entering a new era where many of the adults that Hot AC is targeting grew up listening to some rap. They might not want the newer, harder rap songs like Party Like A Rockstar, but a song like Mo' Money, Mo' Problems, which has been getting CHR airplay for 10 years now, is a litle safer. You could say Hot AC is still "refusing" music because it won't play T-Pain or Shop Boyz.

Bottom line: Rock is a type of music, rap is a type of music, Hot AC is not a type of music. Hot AC does not mean rock; it just means playing the hits adults want to hear.

[Kid Pulse]

slinky said:

But who said Hot AC had to be about "refusing" a type of music? There's no rule that says Hot AC can't play rap. Hot AC, as Marv put it, has always been CHR for adults. At the beginning of the format in the early 90's, that meant "no rap", because adults wanted hits without the rap. Still, R&B and Pop artists like Whitney Houston, Prince, Michael Jackson, Paula Abdul, Janet Jackson, and Madonna were a BIG part of the format when it started. In the late 90's, Hot AC leaned rock because the pop acts at the time catered to kids. Adults wanted pop/rock without the teen pop and rap.

Now, we're entering a new era where many of the adults that Hot AC is targeting grew up listening to some rap. They might not want the newer, harder rap songs like Party Like A Rockstar, but a song like Mo' Money, Mo' Problems, which has been getting CHR airplay for 10 years now, is a litle safer. You could say Hot AC is still "refusing" music because it won't play T-Pain or Shop Boyz.

Bottom line: Rock is a type of music, rap is a type of music, Hot AC is not a type of music. Hot AC does not mean rock; it just means playing the hits adults want to hear.

I disagree. I'm 16 and get annoyed when "Glamorous" comes on, so I can only imagine how a 36 year-old would feel if "Mo Money Mo Problems" came on. I mean what's next? Are we going to be hearing "The Way I Am" by Eminem and songs by 2pac?

In my opinion, Hot AC needs to limit the mid-90s recurrents to what they always do- R.E.M., Gin Blossoms, etc.

[atlantaboy]

slinky said:

But who said Hot AC had to be about "refusing" a type of music? There's no rule that says Hot AC can't play rap.

Marv did (and he's a senior member:) - he said Hot AC's won't play Enimem and 50 Cent, and that's what makes them different from CHR/Pop stations

So then what is the difference between Hot AC and CHR/Pop??? People keep saying Hot AC is targeted to 25-44 year olds - There are plenty of CHR/Pop stations (present and pre-2000) that cater (or catered) to this same demographic (especially in the 80s when Baby Boomers were in their 30s) ???

Maybe when Hot AC was "invented," CHR/Pop changed its definition to "CHR/Teen" WHICH DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!

What frustrates me is when people compare CHR/Pop stats of the 80s and 90s to those of today - it's completely inaccurate IMO to say that Justin Timberlake had 4 #1 hits off this album b/c when you combine the CHR/Teen stations with Hot AC stations (many of which are mass-appeal and even play rap), NONE of Justin's hits hit #1 - same with many of Avril Lavigne's hits except for "Complicated" and "I'm With You"

[Slinky]

video545 said:

I disagree. I'm 16 and get annoyed when "Glamorous" comes on, so I can only imagine how a 36 year-old would feel if "Mo Money Mo Problems" came on. I mean what's next? Are we going to be hearing "The Way I Am" by Eminem and songs by 2pac?

In my opinion, Hot AC needs to limit the mid-90s recurrents to what they always do- R.E.M., Gin Blossoms, etc.

Formats never just stay stagnant. Compare every format today to what they were doing 10 or 15 years ago. Oldies formats were playing the 60's; now they're playing the 70's. AC stations were afraid of "Alternative" artists like Matchbox 20; now artists like that are core. Similarly, Hot AC was for people who didn't like any rap, and now that's changing.

Also, hate to say it, but at 16, and being a guy, you aren't Hot AC's target audience. If a 34 year old woman wants to hear "Glamorous" or "Mo Money Mo Problems", that's what Hot AC is going to play. Most Hot ACs aren't at that point yet, but that's clearly where they're evolving to.

[Kid Pulse]

slinky said:

video545 said:

I disagree. I'm 16 and get annoyed when "Glamorous" comes on, so I can only imagine how a 36 year-old would feel if "Mo Money Mo Problems" came on. I mean what's next? Are we going to be hearing "The Way I Am" by Eminem and songs by 2pac?

In my opinion, Hot AC needs to limit the mid-90s recurrents to what they always do- R.E.M., Gin Blossoms, etc.

Formats never just stay stagnant. Compare every format today to what they were doing 10 or 15 years ago. Oldies formats were playing the 60's; now they're playing the 70's. AC stations were afraid of "Alternative" artists like Matchbox 20; now artists like that are core. Similarly, Hot AC was for people who didn't like any rap, and now that's changing.

Also, hate to say it, but at 16, and being a guy, you aren't Hot AC's target audience. If a 34 year old woman wants to hear "Glamorous" or "Mo Money Mo Problems", that's what Hot AC is going to play. Most Hot ACs aren't at that point yet, but that's clearly where they're evolving to.

Yeah, and I've understood that. So do you think that 5-10 years from now, people like me will have to listen to AC because Hot AC will become a rap haven?

[Hot AC Archiver]

Slinky is correct about the format. It's evolving. Ten years ago this week on the Hot 100 the #1 song was "I'll Be Missing You" by Puff Daddy. This was #1 when the bottom end of the current HAC target audience was 15 years old. I fully expect HAC to continue to add rap and hip hop due to the aging of the audience. However, that doesn't mean I have to like it or not protest the change.

As a thirty something year old male, I, just like Kid Pulse, am not the target demo of HAC advertisers and thus HAC. The question is, where do we go to hear "Today's hits without the rap and hip-hop"? AC? No. We all know how stagnant that format has become. I listen to Adult Hits/Classic Rock stations more and more, even though I get sick of them after a while. There's just nowhere to go.

[Kid Pulse]

at40fantoo said:

Slinky is correct about the format. It's evolving. Ten years ago this week on the Hot 100 the #1 song was "I'll Be Missing You" by Puff Daddy. This was #1 when the bottom end of the current HAC target audience was 15 years old. I fully expect HAC to continue to add rap and hip hop due to the aging of the audience. However, that doesn't mean I have to like it or not protest the change.

As a thirty something year old male, I, just like Kid Pulse, am not the target demo of HAC advertisers and thus HAC. The question is, where do we go to hear "Today's hits without the rap and hip-hop"? AC? No. We all know how stagnant that format has become. I listen to Adult Hits/Classic Rock stations more and more, even though I get sick of them after a while. There's just nowhere to go.

Hopefully there will be "AC" stations that will play Rob Thomas, The Fray, Snow Patrol, Nickelback, Goo Goo Dolls, and play 80s and 90s recurrents, but stray away from any type of hip hop, really soft and boring music, songs from the 60s and 70s, etc. Basically what is the top 10 of AC right now but faster moving and without all of the old slow stuff.

Another question- I know rap had a large audience- let's say- in 1997. But also in 1997 acts like Thrird Eye Blind, Sugar Ray, Paula Cole, Smash Mouth, Wallfloewers, etc. had success. I would think that people who liked THOSE artists a decade ago would listen to Hot AC now, while the rap lovers would listen to Urban. I mean were there really that many Biggie fans who also loved The Gin Blossoms?

[Pipa]

slinky said:

Oldies formats were playing the 60's; now they're playing the 70's.

Now they're adding the 80's and 90's. >:( If that's what I wanted I'd listen to...well, practically any other station.

I miss our old 50's-70's oldies station.

[Slinky]

video545 said:

I mean were there really that many Biggie fans who also loved The Gin Blossoms?

That's the magic question, isn't it?

My opinion: You have to look at it on a song by song basis. The Gin Blossoms fans might not be fans of all Biggie's work, and they probably don't want to hear "Hypnotize" or "Big Poppa", but they're a lot more likely to like "Mo' Money, Mo' Problems" because it was played next to "Follow You Down" when that song was a gold. Same goes for Puff Daddy and "I'll Be Missing You". Those songs transcended the hip-hop genre and became instantly recognizable to anyone who listened to mainstream radio in the late 90's. Paula Cole and Third Eye Blind were played right next to Puff Daddy and Notorious B.I.G. when CHR staged its big comeback in 1996-97.

[Kid Pulse]

slinky said:

video545 said:

I mean were there really that many Biggie fans who also loved The Gin Blossoms?

That's the magic question, isn't it?

My opinion: You have to look at it on a song by song basis. The Gin Blossoms fans might not be fans of all Biggie's work, and they probably don't want to hear "Hypnotize" or "Big Poppa", but they're a lot more likely to like "Mo' Money, Mo' Problems" because it was played next to "Follow You Down" when that song was a gold. Same goes for Puff Daddy and "I'll Be Missing You". Those songs transcended the hip-hop genre and became instantly recognizable to anyone who listened to mainstream radio in the late 90's. Paula Cole and Third Eye Blind were played right next to Puff Daddy and Notorious B.I.G. when CHR staged its big comeback in 1996-97.

Well, using popradiotop20.com, I've assembled this data:

ON POP RADIO

There are 8 "rhythmic" songs in this weeks top 20 (listed as 7/13/07) (note that I did not consider "Summer Love" or "Big Girls Don't Cry" as rhythmic).

That leaves 11 songs that are either pop or rock, and 1 country song ("Before he Cheats").

This week in 1997, there were 6 "rhythmic" songs in the top 20, most of which were R&B. The other 14 songs were either rock or pop/teen pop.

ON HOT AC


There are no "rhythmic" songs on this week's top 20, unless you count "Undeniable", but that's an odd and rare occurance. Also, although it's not top 20 including recurrents, "Rehab" is top 20 as well.

The main point is there are 5 pop crossovers in this week's top 20. This week in 1997 there were only 2 in the top 20 that I would consider pop crossovers ("B!tch" by Meredith Brooks, and "MMMBop" by Hanson, which was at #6). There was also plenty of AC-leaning music in the top 20.


The way I'm trying to add all this up is: urban music is crossing over to pop faster than it was in 1997, pop music is crossing over to Hot AC faster than it was in 1997, and (probably) "Hot AC" is crossing over to AC faster than it was a decade ago.

So based on this, a decade from now, pop will pretty much be the new urban, Hot AC will be the pop of today, and AC might be more like Hot AC is in 2007.

[atlantaboy]

atlantaboy said:

slinky said:

But who said Hot AC had to be about "refusing" a type of music? There's no rule that says Hot AC can't play rap.

Marv did (and he's a senior member:) - he said Hot AC's won't play Enimem and 50 Cent, and that's what makes them different from CHR/Pop stations

So then what is the difference between Hot AC and CHR/Pop??? People keep saying Hot AC is targeted to 25-44 year olds - There are plenty of CHR/Pop stations (present and pre-2000) that cater (or catered) to this same demographic (especially in the 80s when Baby Boomers were in their 30s) ???

Does anyone know the answer to this question? If CHR catered towards the teen demographic it does now in the 80s, Bruce Hornsby wouldn't have hit #1 with "The Way It Is", Huey Lewis wouldn't have had all his #1, or Top 5 hits, and even Phil Collins would've been seriously handicapped on the Pop Chart

Bottom line - in the 80s and 90s, CHR DID cater to 25-44 yr olds (hence Bruce Hornsby, Huey Lewis, Phil Collins #1's)

In the 2000s, someone came up with a rule that said any station that caters to 25-44 olds and plays current music HAS to be labeled Hot AC and not CHR

Therefore, the CHR/Pop chart has been skewed since about 1999 IMO :)

[musicfanpete]

at40fantoo said:

Slinky is correct about the format. It's evolving. Ten years ago this week on the Hot 100 the #1 song was "I'll Be Missing You" by Puff Daddy. This was #1 when the bottom end of the current HAC target audience was 15 years old. I fully expect HAC to continue to add rap and hip hop due to the aging of the audience. However, that doesn't mean I have to like it or not protest the change.

Good god, I hope not! I understand that the younger end of the Hot AC target audience grew up on Puff Daddy. But that doesn't mean they want to hear that song now, especially on their local Hot AC station. Musical tastes tend to mature with age. That's why it would not be in their best interest if Hot AC's start adding Puff Daddy or 50 Cent to their playlists anytime soon.

I can see rap having a place on Hot AC, but it has to be done sparingly, and it cannot include the aforementioned "gangsta" rap examples I cited above. Yes, there are a few Hot AC core rock artists that write some questionable music as well, but the day Hot AC starts adding music without any melody, with questionable lyrics on top of that will be the day the format gets themselves into big trouble!