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Post by mrclimbfall20 on Jul 25, 2007 22:10:05 GMT -5
Yeah - I think Marv and I meant different things by "mass-appeal" - I thought "mass-appeal" meant playing all kinds of music on one station, from as many different genres as possible (like WPRO, WNKS, WWWQ, etc.) - that's why I mentioned playing hits that appeal to many ethnicities etc. If HOT AC wants to attract the largest possible audience 25-44 etc., yeah, then they shouldn't play rap or metal etc. - but Hot AC doesn't attract a huge audience nationwide (compared to other formats) - that's why I thought by "mass-appeal" Marv meant encompassing all types of music (from Goo Goo Dolls to Eminem) Rap alienates older listeners, but songs like "Better Days" alienate younger listeners - that's why this mass-appeal Hot AC thing doesn't make any sense to me ??? That makes me feel really weird- hahah. In late 2005, "Better Days" was one of my favorite songs (I was 14 then). Guess I'm weird, hahah!! As for the "mass-appeal" thing, I agree with atlantaboy; but I don't think Hot AC was intended to be a "mass appeal" format, it was intended to be a format for hip music without hip hop )obviously, we have evolved from Elton John and "soft" Madonna to Green Day and Nickelback, but still). I thought pop was supposed to be the mass-appeal, but Hot AC has defianitly taken that throne. Which is why I agree with mrclimbfall20's original post that began this thread- IT MAY BE BECOMING A DIFFERENT FORMAT THAN IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN. :) LOL I didn't think the subject would go back to my original post since the discussion has been too caught up with rap. I like the idea of Modern AC though...especially the way they market it. It sounds like a pop/alternative station which is a weird combo.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 26, 2007 9:11:41 GMT -5
I don't think there's a need to bring out the race card here. Rap is done by all races so excluding rap isn't excluding a certain race. Race is really important though in determining mass-appeal demographics - if "mass-appeal" means the widest audience possible, and you have a high Hispanic and/or Black population in your city, then playing "Better Days" by the Goo Goo Dolls (sorry to keep using this as an example, I love that song, BTW) will cause (sorry to generalize) your Hispanic and Black audience to change the station - so will not playing ANY rap at all mixed in with rock and pop Yeah - I completely agree w/ Kid Pulse - Hot AC should not play rap b/c it's geared towards people who, in general, prefer pop/rock/alternative and many of whom really dislike rap (although that number is getting smaller) BUT b/c Hot AC doesn't play rap, it is NOT a MASS-APPEAL format by itself, no matter what definition of the word you use - People in their 30s now have grown up on rap, and many include it in their IPODs along with the Goo Goo Dolls and Matchbox 20 - that's why IMO CHR has much higher ratings than Hot AC (although I competely prefer Hot AC) - sorry to use ethnic demographics again but Hot AC appeals to the wealtheir white masses (in general) in a certain age group - Baby Boomers are now almost all confined to mainstream AC, and that's the largest population group in the country CHR is still the mass-appeal format, then, whether you're talking about numbers of listeners or types of music played, but it's misleading if you live in Los Angeles (KIIS is not mass-appeal) or Chicago, Detroit etc. - and the Clear Channel Kiss/poser rhythmic staions HAVE COMPLETELY SKEWED THE CHR CHART!! :) I do think there is a bit of racism in Hot AC (by some people) b/c how come so many Hot AC's played "In The End" by Linkin Park but wouldn't touch "In Da Club" by 50 Cent? I know Hot AC plays black artists that "sound white" like Beyonce in "Irreplaceable" but (hope I don't get in trouble for saying this) don't really play black artists that "sound black" like Rihanna "Umbrella" And get this - many Alternative stations played "Lose Yourself" by Eminem but obviously wouldn't touch Nelly or 50 Cent - that seems like clear racism :( Hope I don't get my head bitten off for writing this post :) but I feel pretty strongly about it
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Jul 26, 2007 18:38:48 GMT -5
I don't think there's a need to bring out the race card here. Rap is done by all races so excluding rap isn't excluding a certain race. Race is really important though in determining mass-appeal demographics - if "mass-appeal" means the widest audience possible, and you have a high Hispanic and/or Black population in your city, then playing "Better Days" by the Goo Goo Dolls (sorry to keep using this as an example, I love that song, BTW) will cause (sorry to generalize) your Hispanic and Black audience to change the station - so will not playing ANY rap at all mixed in with rock and pop Yeah - I completely agree w/ Kid Pulse - Hot AC should not play rap b/c it's geared towards people who, in general, prefer pop/rock/alternative and many of whom really dislike rap (although that number is getting smaller) BUT b/c Hot AC doesn't play rap, it is NOT a MASS-APPEAL format by itself, no matter what definition of the word you use - People in their 30s now have grown up on rap, and many include it in their IPODs along with the Goo Goo Dolls and Matchbox 20 - that's why IMO CHR has much higher ratings than Hot AC (although I competely prefer Hot AC) - sorry to use ethnic demographics again but Hot AC appeals to the wealtheir white masses (in general) in a certain age group - Baby Boomers are now almost all confined to mainstream AC, and that's the largest population group in the country CHR is still the mass-appeal format, then, whether you're talking about numbers of listeners or types of music played, but it's misleading if you live in Los Angeles (KIIS is not mass-appeal) or Chicago, Detroit etc. - and the Clear Channel Kiss/poser rhythmic staions HAVE COMPLETELY SKEWED THE CHR CHART!! :) I do think there is a bit of racism in Hot AC (by some people) b/c how come so many Hot AC's played "In The End" by Linkin Park but wouldn't touch "In Da Club" by 50 Cent? I know Hot AC plays black artists that "sound white" like Beyonce in "Irreplaceable" but (hope I don't get in trouble for saying this) don't really play black artists that "sound black" like Rihanna "Umbrella" And get this - many Alternative stations played "Lose Yourself" by Eminem but obviously wouldn't touch Nelly or 50 Cent - that seems like clear racism :( Hope I don't get my head bitten off for writing this post :) but I feel pretty strongly about it I agree with you on the alternative playing Eminem. In the song "The Way I Am" (before "Lose Yourself"), Eminem says something like "a poppy sensation that got me rotation at rock and roll stations". Obviously, the fact that he's white has a lot to do with why they played him. If they're gonna play Em, then they technechally should play 50 Cent and Jay Z, unless those 2 are not as appealing to thier audience (which I can understand). I agree with you on the appealing to black/hispanic people ONLY IF THERE IS NO POP OR URBAN in the area. Remember in the topic about pop needing to play all types of music, you said stations in Miami and L.A. didn't play "Before He Cheats" or "Home" because of how many Hispanics there were there? Well if there is a pop or urban station, chances are they would be listening to that (not trying to stereotype that all blacks listen to urban, just sayin'). As for the Beyonce thing, the "In a minute" and "To the left" catch-phrases were generally used amongst African-American females (sometimes males) (at least at my high school- of course many of the white people listen to Kenny Chesney, so they're out of the picture). About "sounding white" and "sounding black", I agree with you but you might get bashed for saying it. I think that's why Hot AC didn't really touch "London Bridge" or "Fergalicious" but did play her latest singles- especially "Big Girls Don't Cry". Also why "Stickwitu" by PCD got plays but "Beep" and "Buttons" didn't as much (aside from thier sex-driven, promiscuous lyrics, they had an urban appeal). I do agree that most blacks would change the station if The Goo Goo Dolls came on, but most people under the age of 20 probably would. Not me of course. Overall, I agree with you all the way. Good thing you didn't post this in the pop forum!!!
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Jul 26, 2007 18:48:22 GMT -5
I don't think there's a need to bring out the race card here. Rap is done by all races so excluding rap isn't excluding a certain race. Race is really important though in determining mass-appeal demographics - if "mass-appeal" means the widest audience possible, and you have a high Hispanic and/or Black population in your city, then playing "Better Days" by the Goo Goo Dolls (sorry to keep using this as an example, I love that song, BTW) will cause (sorry to generalize) your Hispanic and Black audience to change the station - so will not playing ANY rap at all mixed in with rock and pop Yeah - I completely agree w/ Kid Pulse - Hot AC should not play rap b/c it's geared towards people who, in general, prefer pop/rock/alternative and many of whom really dislike rap (although that number is getting smaller) BUT b/c Hot AC doesn't play rap, it is NOT a MASS-APPEAL format by itself, no matter what definition of the word you use - People in their 30s now have grown up on rap, and many include it in their IPODs along with the Goo Goo Dolls and Matchbox 20 - that's why IMO CHR has much higher ratings than Hot AC (although I competely prefer Hot AC) - sorry to use ethnic demographics again but Hot AC appeals to the wealtheir white masses (in general) in a certain age group - Baby Boomers are now almost all confined to mainstream AC, and that's the largest population group in the country CHR is still the mass-appeal format, then, whether you're talking about numbers of listeners or types of music played, but it's misleading if you live in Los Angeles (KIIS is not mass-appeal) or Chicago, Detroit etc. - and the Clear Channel Kiss/poser rhythmic staions HAVE COMPLETELY SKEWED THE CHR CHART!! :) I do think there is a bit of racism in Hot AC (by some people) b/c how come so many Hot AC's played "In The End" by Linkin Park but wouldn't touch "In Da Club" by 50 Cent? I know Hot AC plays black artists that "sound white" like Beyonce in "Irreplaceable" but (hope I don't get in trouble for saying this) don't really play black artists that "sound black" like Rihanna "Umbrella" And get this - many Alternative stations played "Lose Yourself" by Eminem but obviously wouldn't touch Nelly or 50 Cent - that seems like clear racism :( Hope I don't get my head bitten off for writing this post :) but I feel pretty strongly about it I agree with most of your points. However, wouldn't it be just as "racist" for urban stations to not play "white" sounding songs? Of course most people would say no since those type of songs would not fit on an urban station. My point entirely. The reason many Hot AC's don't play "black" sounding songs is the same reason urban stations don't play "white" sounding songs. The reason is because their respective audiences don't relate to those types of music. But if it's not racist for urban stations to pass on certain types of songs, then it shouldn't be racist for Hot AC's to pass on urban music, if they so choose.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 26, 2007 19:31:46 GMT -5
Completely agree with what you just said (didn't want to box the quote and make it any bigger than it already was) - Urban doesn't play "white" sounding songs, and Hot AC doesn't play "black" sounding songs, and there's nothing wrong with that -
But that's why IMO you can't call Hot AC "Mass-Appeal" unless you combine it with CHR which does play rap and R&B (urban sounding songs)
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Jul 26, 2007 22:37:25 GMT -5
Completely agree with what you just said (didn't want to box the quote and make it any bigger than it already was) - Urban doesn't play "white" sounding songs, and Hot AC doesn't play "black" sounding songs, and there's nothing wrong with that - But that's why IMO you can't call Hot AC "Mass-Appeal" unless you combine it with CHR which does play rap and R&B (urban sounding songs) I definately agree with your assessment of not calling Hot AC mass-appeal. I was just under the impression from your previous post that you thought some Hot AC's were racist for not playing certain urban titles (the Linkin Park vs 50 Cent example you cited). But I guess that's what separates the Hot AC's from the balanced CHR's that we hope will one day flourish again. :)
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jul 27, 2007 16:01:53 GMT -5
The fact that 'Bust A Move', 'U Can't Touch This' & 'Ice Ice Baby' were all huge singles at CHR/Pop radio in 1990, at a time when adults had started bailing out of the format, does show that some types of rap can be played at a CHR/Pop station, buit that was seventeen years ago.
1990 was a superb year for the format thanks to a very wide-ranging playlist, and an extraordinary stream of exceptional songs from females, neither of which is the case today, due again to clusterization and the defensive programming at most stations in all of the clusters in market after market across the country.
'Lose Yourself' and 'In Da Club' are not mass-appeal friendly tunes, and the same goes for TONS of the hard-core rap music which the format has become infested with since the late eighties.
Hot AC is much closer to being a mass-appeal format than CHR/Pop is for that very reason; when you look at either the weekly or year-end charts in R&R/BB for the CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic & urban charts, the fact that the overwhelming majority of songs on all three charts are aimed at 12-17, 12-24 or 12-34 year-olds makes it very clear than top 40 radio's playlist, is, as atlantaboy perfectly described it 'out of balance'.
Mass-appeal CHR/Pop powerhouses which have consistently been mass-appeal powerhouses (with the 25-54 numbers to back it up) for over twenty years (with WNCI/Columbus leading the pack) are few and far between.
But any Hot AC station which starts playing anything by Eminem or 50 Cent is unquestionably defeating its stated purpose as being a station/format which adults who want to remain hip and contemporary but with zero desire to hear the vulgarity, materialism-addicted, demeaning and women-hating crap known as rap music under any circumstances can listen to for hours on end.
It makes no more sense for a longtime Hot AC station to start playing 50 Cent (now or ever!!!!) than it does for a country powerhouse to start playing the likes of Silverchair or Three Doors Down.
Hard-core rap music is not adult-friendly and especially soccer-mom/adult/female friendly.
Could you imagine a forty-something Caucasian, upper-middle class female taking her two elementary-through high-school kids to a 50 Cent or Eminem concert?????
Hell no, but they'd be prime candidates to attend a concert by any country megastar, as well as Hot AC format stalwarts such as Sheryl Crow, Rob Thomas, or Gwen Stefani.
But 'clusterization' has unquestionably prevented Hot AC from becoming the powerhouse format that CHR/Pop was until the early nineties; most Hot AC stations cannot play nearly as wide a variety of music as they should, for fear of harming another station in their ratings cluster.
In theory, Hot AC stations should be able to play tons of the biggest CHR/Pop singles of the eighties & nineties, while seamlessly mixing those tunes with the current format megastars previously mentioned.
But thanks to Clear Channel and the other corporate radio behemoths, that is obviously not the case.
Finally, it is not KIIS-FM's current music stance which has colored my perception of the format, but their abandonment of the mass-appeal objective of top 40 radio, an undisputed fact which has been the case for most of the past 40+ years dating back to 93/KHJ Los Angeles in 1965.
CHR/Pop (and KIIS-FM) started abandoning its roots as a mass-appeal format in 1987, and while the format has had its ups and downs over the past two decades, the fact that there are roughly half the number of CHR/Pop panel members as there were TWENTY-PLUS years ago should be another dead giveaway that the format isn't what it used to be.
That was not the case in KIIS's and the format's glory days circa 1985, when all 235 panel reporters added a huge megasmash entitled 'We Are The World' in its opening week, a record that will never be broken.
KIIS-FM had a 9.0+ rating back then; try finding a stunning number like that ratings wise (or even close to it) in other cities today besides WNCI and small-market powerhouses such as Z104 (WZEE-Madison, Wisc.).
If Clear Channel is happy with KHKS holding a 6.0 share, WHTZ having been stuck in the 4.2-4.8 ratings range since 1997, and KIIS's ho-hum 4.8 rating right now, then maybe that's what they deserve for destroying radio from coast to coast in format after format.
CHR/Pop has certainly taken a beating thanks to them, and so has Hot AC...and AC...and Country.....and...well, you get the idea.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 27, 2007 16:24:08 GMT -5
What you say makes sense Marv - I think you're saying Hot AC is more mass appeal than CHR b/c of the huge # of rhythmic-leaning teen CHRs, which is true - but IMO you gotta give credit to the very large number of CHRs that ARE mass-appeal (Most are not in California!!) and you can tell just by looking at their playlists - IMO this is where all CHRs would be except that Hot AC broke away from CHR in most large cities, so the music is divided up, so in these large markets (Chicago, L. A., Detroit, etc.) there is no mass appeal station
There are lots of mass-appeal CHRs out there - they cater 12-44 females and play both "Lose Yourself" (which a lot of adults in their 30s love BTW) and "Ever The Same"
I think if you removed about 20 rhythmic-leaning CHRs that don't belong there from the CHR chart (they play T-Pain and J. T. 100x a week, for example, so it makes a huge difference), you would see the chart start to look more mass-appeal (or, if you combined it with the HAC chart b/c it's these songs that the CHR/Teen stations are delegating to the HAC's)
If you go back and look at CHR playlists from the 80s and early 90s, you could almost divide the stations into either "CHR" or "Hot AC" by the songs they played - (WKTI/Milwaukee, WKRQ/Cincinatti for periods of time, WBLI/Long Island back then, Y100/Miami for periods of time, KRBE/Houston for a long time, a station KEGL/Dallas, a station Q101/Chicago - they were all on the CHR panel, and today they would be labeled as "Hot AC")
So IMO the reason for the "Golden Days" of CHR was that adult-leaning CHRs were kept on the CHR panel instead of pushed out to the Hot AC panel, and therefore the CHR charts were completely mass-appeal
I don't think Hot AC was ever intended to appeal to adults well into their 40s, but more late 20s and 30s - and most people who are currently in their 20s and 30s IMO wouldn't be turned off by "Lose Yourself" or "Hot In Herre" every once in a while b/c they grew up on rap - people well into their 40s and 50s would never go to an Eminem concert, but those people listen to mainstream AC, not Hot AC (in general)
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jul 28, 2007 10:00:15 GMT -5
Trust me---if the vast majority of CHR/Pop stations out there had a playlist with the range of WNCI, I'd be absolutely delirious!!!!!
You've certainly mentioned other mass-appeal CHR/Pop stations out there which have been nationally respected for well over a decade, starting with WNCI, KRBE/Houston, Providence's PRO-FM, Z100 (Portland) and Charlotte's WNKS.
WNCI has been a CHR/Pop powerhouse for over forty years, and PRO-FM has been a format fixture for over thirty years.
Gary Bryan, currently doing mornings at LA's legendary Oldies station KRTH 101, was the PD when Z100 (KKRZ/Portland) was launched in 1994, and it's also been a solid CHR/Pop station throughout its entire existence.
My primary point from the start of this exceptional thread and VERY intelligent discussion has been that KIIS's decision to try to reclaim the teens they lost from KPWR (and severely overreacting in the process!!) was really dumb, and it was even dumber for their overreaction to be copied in market after market---the same thing happened in Tampa two years later.
There was PLENTY of room in a city the size of LA fro both KIIS and KPWR to have 7.0 (or higher) shares AFTER KPWR replaced KIIS at #1 in the spring of 1987, and that certainly applies to most of our 30-40 largest markets.
KIIS's decision to load up on rap music did take a bite out of KPWR's ratings, but it failed to stop baby-boomers, soccer moms, and the other VERY desireable adults from continue to bail out of the top 40 format (and KIIS bled listeners as steadily as everybody else did) in favor of Country, AC, Smooth Jazz or Oldies.
But any Hot AC PD who starts playing Eminem & 50 Cent is nullifying the purpose of his (or her) radio station-- to play music that EVERYBODY can agree on.
Adding hard core rap music to a format (Hot AC) aimed at adults who left the top 40 format format starting in the late eighties is unquestionably counterproductive IMHO.
Look at Atlanta's radio landscape; without an oldies station in existence (not sure why?), there's no doubt in my mind that if Star 94 evolved into a Hot AC station as WZPL/Indianapolis did in the early nineties, both Star 94 & Q100 would undoubtedly see their ratings rise (and especially for adults), as opposed to trying to outdo each other by playing 85% (or more) of the same songs.
Mpst markets today (at least those in our 30 or 40 largest cities) don't have any room for two CHR/Pop stations; such is not the case in small and/or medium size markets.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 7, 2007 11:43:28 GMT -5
Trust me---if the vast majority of CHR/Pop stations out there had a playlist with the range of WNCI, I'd be absolutely delirious!!!!! Most of the CHR/Pop stations that DESERVE TO BE ON THE CHR/POP PANEL do have playlists with that musical variety range - it's actually about 2/3 of the current CHR panel The reason it seems like more than that is b/c the CHR/Pop stations that lean rhythmic tend to play their rhythmic hits like T-Pain and Shop Boyz 100 times a week so it greatly skews the CHR chart into looking more rhythmic than it actually is The reason IMO that the CHR/Pop chart was less rhythmic in the 90s is b/c most teen-exclusive CHR stations were classified as "Rhythmic" back then (they actually did play ALL rhythmic music) - then in 1999-2000, Clear Channel launched a huge campaign of essentially rhythmic teen stations only they played a select few pop/rock bands in their mix - The result was the number of CHR/Pop stations skyrocketed, but MOST of these new stations were essentially rhythmic The other phenomenon that has happened since the 80s is the enormous influx of Hispanic audience in California and Florida which has made CHR stations in these areas essentially rhythmic, even if they're still labeled as CHR/Pop I think Star 94/Atlanta doesn't want to change to HAC, b/c it knows that HAC rarely gets ratings in a market higher than CHR and it's currently much higher rated than Q100 - since Q100 is "losing" the CHR battle, that's the station that might consider changing to HAC, but it can't b/c Star 94 leans so heavily HAC - it's sort of a Catch-22 situation
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Aug 7, 2007 13:15:48 GMT -5
Trust me---if the vast majority of CHR/Pop stations out there had a playlist with the range of WNCI, I'd be absolutely delirious!!!!! Most of the CHR/Pop stations that DESERVE TO BE ON THE CHR/POP PANEL do have playlists with that musical variety range - it's actually about 2/3 of the current CHR panel The reason it seems like more than that is b/c the CHR/Pop stations that lean rhythmic tend to play their rhythmic hits like T-Pain and Shop Boyz 100 times a week so it greatly skews the CHR chart into looking more rhythmic than it actually is The reason IMO that the CHR/Pop chart was less rhythmic in the 90s is b/c most teen-exclusive CHR stations were classified as "Rhythmic" back then (they actually did play ALL rhythmic music) - then in 1999-2000, Clear Channel launched a huge campaign of essentially rhythmic teen stations only they played a select few pop/rock bands in their mix - The result was the number of CHR/Pop stations skyrocketed, but MOST of these new stations were essentially rhythmic The other phenomenon that has happened since the 80s is the enormous influx of Hispanic audience in California and Florida which has made CHR stations in these areas essentially rhythmic, even if they're still labeled as CHR/Pop I think Star 94/Atlanta doesn't want to change to HAC, b/c it knows that HAC rarely gets ratings in a market higher than CHR and it's currently much higher rated than Q100 - since Q100 is "losing" the CHR battle, that's the station that might consider changing to HAC, but it can't b/c Star 94 leans so heavily HAC - it's sort of a Catch-22 situation Actually though, even if Star 94 reported HAC instead of CHR, their listeners would not know that, and as long as they keep the same playlist, their average listener wouldn't care what they call themselves. Also calling themselves a HAC might be better for them as most HAC's bill much higher since they aim their ad's towards an older, more female (25 to 44) demographic. My guess is that the majority of their listeners already fall into that demographic anyway, so nothing would really change if they decide to report HAC.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 7, 2007 15:28:17 GMT -5
Most of the CHR/Pop stations that DESERVE TO BE ON THE CHR/POP PANEL do have playlists with that musical variety range - it's actually about 2/3 of the current CHR panel The reason it seems like more than that is b/c the CHR/Pop stations that lean rhythmic tend to play their rhythmic hits like T-Pain and Shop Boyz 100 times a week so it greatly skews the CHR chart into looking more rhythmic than it actually is The reason IMO that the CHR/Pop chart was less rhythmic in the 90s is b/c most teen-exclusive CHR stations were classified as "Rhythmic" back then (they actually did play ALL rhythmic music) - then in 1999-2000, Clear Channel launched a huge campaign of essentially rhythmic teen stations only they played a select few pop/rock bands in their mix - The result was the number of CHR/Pop stations skyrocketed, but MOST of these new stations were essentially rhythmic The other phenomenon that has happened since the 80s is the enormous influx of Hispanic audience in California and Florida which has made CHR stations in these areas essentially rhythmic, even if they're still labeled as CHR/Pop I think Star 94/Atlanta doesn't want to change to HAC, b/c it knows that HAC rarely gets ratings in a market higher than CHR and it's currently much higher rated than Q100 - since Q100 is "losing" the CHR battle, that's the station that might consider changing to HAC, but it can't b/c Star 94 leans so heavily HAC - it's sort of a Catch-22 situation Actually though, even if Star 94 reported HAC instead of CHR, their listeners would not know that, and as long as they keep the same playlist, their average listener wouldn't care what they call themselves. Also calling themselves a HAC might be better for them as most HAC's bill much higher since they aim their ad's towards an older, more female (25 to 44) demographic. My guess is that the majority of their listeners already fall into that demographic anyway, so nothing would really change if they decide to report HAC. The thing about Star 94 is 80% of their music is current, and they also won't play HAC hits until they're released for CHR/Pop adds - they also use common recurrents like "Yeah" by Usher, "Survivor" by Destiny's Child etc. - all hits that Star 94 plays are currently on the CHR/Pop chart, and they still leave out the HAC-only hits like "Before It's Too Late" and "Undeniable" - also, they never play music from the 80s (that would be pretty rare for a HAC station) Plus, the last thing the CHR/Pop panel needs IMO is more stations switching over to HAC and make the Pop chart even more rhythmic than it already is - If anything, IMO Q102/Cincinatti and WZPL/Indianapolis should switch over to the CHR/Pop panel since they play so many current hits and since they would've been considered CHR/Pop in the 80s and 90s BTW, Star 94 constantly plays their motto: "Thanks for making us the #1 Top 40 station in Atlanta" a million times a day :)
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Aug 7, 2007 17:11:11 GMT -5
Trust me---if the vast majority of CHR/Pop stations out there had a playlist with the range of WNCI, I'd be absolutely delirious!!!!! Most of the CHR/Pop stations that DESERVE TO BE ON THE CHR/POP PANEL do have playlists with that musical variety range - it's actually about 2/3 of the current CHR panel The reason it seems like more than that is b/c the CHR/Pop stations that lean rhythmic tend to play their rhythmic hits like T-Pain and Shop Boyz 100 times a week so it greatly skews the CHR chart into looking more rhythmic than it actually is The reason IMO that the CHR/Pop chart was less rhythmic in the 90s is b/c most teen-exclusive CHR stations were classified as "Rhythmic" back then (they actually did play ALL rhythmic music) - then in 1999-2000, Clear Channel launched a huge campaign of essentially rhythmic teen stations only they played a select few pop/rock bands in their mix - The result was the number of CHR/Pop stations skyrocketed, but MOST of these new stations were essentially rhythmic The other phenomenon that has happened since the 80s is the enormous influx of Hispanic audience in California and Florida which has made CHR stations in these areas essentially rhythmic, even if they're still labeled as CHR/Pop I think Star 94/Atlanta doesn't want to change to HAC, b/c it knows that HAC rarely gets ratings in a market higher than CHR and it's currently much higher rated than Q100 - since Q100 is "losing" the CHR battle, that's the station that might consider changing to HAC, but it can't b/c Star 94 leans so heavily HAC - it's sort of a Catch-22 situation Just wondering- wouldn't the majority of the Hispanic audience tune into the Hispanic music station? That's the way it is where I live.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 8, 2007 9:28:17 GMT -5
Most of the CHR/Pop stations that DESERVE TO BE ON THE CHR/POP PANEL do have playlists with that musical variety range - it's actually about 2/3 of the current CHR panel The reason it seems like more than that is b/c the CHR/Pop stations that lean rhythmic tend to play their rhythmic hits like T-Pain and Shop Boyz 100 times a week so it greatly skews the CHR chart into looking more rhythmic than it actually is The reason IMO that the CHR/Pop chart was less rhythmic in the 90s is b/c most teen-exclusive CHR stations were classified as "Rhythmic" back then (they actually did play ALL rhythmic music) - then in 1999-2000, Clear Channel launched a huge campaign of essentially rhythmic teen stations only they played a select few pop/rock bands in their mix - The result was the number of CHR/Pop stations skyrocketed, but MOST of these new stations were essentially rhythmic The other phenomenon that has happened since the 80s is the enormous influx of Hispanic audience in California and Florida which has made CHR stations in these areas essentially rhythmic, even if they're still labeled as CHR/Pop I think Star 94/Atlanta doesn't want to change to HAC, b/c it knows that HAC rarely gets ratings in a market higher than CHR and it's currently much higher rated than Q100 - since Q100 is "losing" the CHR battle, that's the station that might consider changing to HAC, but it can't b/c Star 94 leans so heavily HAC - it's sort of a Catch-22 situation Just wondering- wouldn't the majority of the Hispanic audience tune into the Hispanic music station? That's the way it is where I live. I think it depends on whether ur talking bout Hispanics who mainly speak Spanish vs. Hispanics who have mixed into English-speaking crowds - Hispanic stations are broadcast exclusively in Spanish so Hispanic-Americans who want to hear music in English tend to listen to rhythmic-leaning pop i. e. L. A. San Diego and Miami KIIS, Y100/Miami/ CHR in San Diego (forgot its name)
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Aug 8, 2007 12:11:26 GMT -5
Just wondering- wouldn't the majority of the Hispanic audience tune into the Hispanic music station? That's the way it is where I live. I think it depends on whether ur talking bout Hispanics who mainly speak Spanish vs. Hispanics who have mixed into English-speaking crowds - Hispanic stations are broadcast exclusively in Spanish so Hispanic-Americans who want to hear music in English tend to listen to rhythmic-leaning pop i. e. L. A. San Diego and Miami KIIS, Y100/Miami/ CHR in San Diego (forgot its name) Oh, well then that makes sense. Where I live, a lot of the Hispanics don't speak english. I remember WHFS, Washington's old alternative station was dropped for an Hispanic station on 99.1 Maybe where I live is weird because very few kids in my school listen to pop (although there are Fall Out Boy, Nickelback, The Fray, and Justin Timberlake fans), and I don't know anybody who listens to Hot AC, or even knows what that is. Most people in my school either lean urban or country, so it's not a good place to judge the influences pop has on Hot AC, or vice versa. Another thing relative to this topic is older music Hot AC plays. A lot of the songs from 1994-1996 that Hot AC is playing now is defianitly not what they played during those years. So I'm thinking 10-15 years from now, will Hot AC be playing "Whine Up" and "Buy You a Drank", or will they be playing Hot AC hits from now?
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Post by mrclimbfall20 on Aug 8, 2007 12:56:07 GMT -5
Just wondering- wouldn't the majority of the Hispanic audience tune into the Hispanic music station? That's the way it is where I live. I think it depends on whether ur talking bout Hispanics who mainly speak Spanish vs. Hispanics who have mixed into English-speaking crowds - Hispanic stations are broadcast exclusively in Spanish so Hispanic-Americans who want to hear music in English tend to listen to rhythmic-leaning pop i. e. L. A. San Diego and Miami KIIS, Y100/Miami/ CHR in San Diego (forgot its name) It's Channel 933 (KHTS)
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 8, 2007 14:05:43 GMT -5
I think it depends on whether ur talking bout Hispanics who mainly speak Spanish vs. Hispanics who have mixed into English-speaking crowds - Hispanic stations are broadcast exclusively in Spanish so Hispanic-Americans who want to hear music in English tend to listen to rhythmic-leaning pop i. e. L. A. San Diego and Miami KIIS, Y100/Miami/ CHR in San Diego (forgot its name) Oh, well then that makes sense. Where I live, a lot of the Hispanics don't speak english. I remember WHFS, Washington's old alternative station was dropped for an Hispanic station on 99.1 Maybe where I live is weird because very few kids in my school listen to pop (although there are Fall Out Boy, Nickelback, The Fray, and Justin Timberlake fans), and I don't know anybody who listens to Hot AC, or even knows what that is. Most people in my school either lean urban or country, so it's not a good place to judge the influences pop has on Hot AC, or vice versa. Another thing relative to this topic is older music Hot AC plays. A lot of the songs from 1994-1996 that Hot AC is playing now is defianitly not what they played during those years. So I'm thinking 10-15 years from now, will Hot AC be playing "Whine Up" and "Buy You a Drank", or will they be playing Hot AC hits from now? Can't see Hot AC playin either of those songs - "Whine Up" wasn't even that big a hit at pop, and "Buy U A Drank" was definitely a hit only for R&B listeners to pop stations (other people just sat through it on CHR to listen to the other songs) When pop/alternative started to get big in '93-'94, Hot AC didn't play it initially (Gin Blossoms, Counting Crows, etc. if that's what ur talking about) - but by '96 almost all Hot ACs went back and played these bands - '95 is when Alanis, Goo Goo Dolls, Dave Matthews came out, also "One Of Us" by Joan Osborne but there were still plenty of HACs that didn't play Alanis, Dave Matthews, or the Goo Goo Dolls in heavy rotation until a couple years later Hot AC as we think of it today didn't really form until '97-'98 - before that, many HAC stations still had Sting, Phil Collins, Rod Stewart etc. as their core artists - by '97-'98, almost all HACs could go back and play as their core artists Counting Crows, Hootie& the Blowfish, Sheryl Crow, Dave Matthews, etc.
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Aug 12, 2007 17:37:24 GMT -5
I think that Hot AC is becoming more open to friendly pop crossovers ("The Sweet Escape", "Umbrella", "Big Girls Don't Cry", "Say it Right") than it is with friendly alternative crossovers ("Never too Late" and "Wasted Time" are being ignored). Just an observation.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 13, 2007 10:48:20 GMT -5
I think that Hot AC is becoming more open to friendly pop crossovers ("The Sweet Escape", "Umbrella", "Big Girls Don't Cry", "Say it Right") than it is with friendly alternative crossovers ("Never too Late" and "Wasted Time" are being ignored). Just an observation. Think it's way too early to say anything about "Never Too Late" and "Wasted Time" - haven't even heard those songs yet on Alternative :) First, I'd look for "Straight Lines" too start crossing over Alternative crossovers to HAC usually start in California with KYSR and the Western "Alice" stations - still can't believe HAC played "The Kill" by 30 Seconds To Mars and even "Hate Me" by Blue October
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Post by mrclimbfall20 on Aug 13, 2007 13:48:11 GMT -5
I think that Hot AC is becoming more open to friendly pop crossovers ("The Sweet Escape", "Umbrella", "Big Girls Don't Cry", "Say it Right") than it is with friendly alternative crossovers ("Never too Late" and "Wasted Time" are being ignored). Just an observation. Think it's way too early to say anything about "Never Too Late" and "Wasted Time" - haven't even heard those songs yet on Alternative :) First, I'd look for "Straight Lines" too start crossing over Alternative crossovers to HAC usually start in California with KYSR and the Western "Alice" stations - still can't believe HAC played "The Kill" by 30 Seconds To Mars and even "Hate Me" by Blue October I wish that more stations (especially on Star 94.1 in San Diego) sounded like Star 98.7 since I feel that's how "Hot AC" should sound like.
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Aug 13, 2007 20:07:55 GMT -5
I just think that "Through Glass" by Stone Sour and "Into the Ocean" by Blue October probably should have gone top 5 on Hot AC, but instead "Say It Right" by Nelly Furtado and "The Sweet Escape" by Gwen Stefani f/Akon made the top 5.
I think that 3 years ago, it wouldn't have been that way.
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Aug 13, 2007 20:34:56 GMT -5
Do any of you folks list to KPLZ/Seattle? Their PD (Kent Phillips) is trying to reinvigorate the station and give it (amd the format) a boost in ratings; Hot AC stations have ALWAYS made TONS of money. If you need more details on this, please go over to www.radio-info.com and visit the thread entitled 'KPLZ flips' under the Seattle board thread, and in particular my summary of his comments on page two of that thread.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 14, 2007 9:28:04 GMT -5
I just think that "Through Glass" by Stone Sour and "Into the Ocean" by Blue October probably should have gone top 5 on Hot AC, but instead "Say It Right" by Nelly Furtado and "The Sweet Escape" by Gwen Stefani f/Akon made the top 5. I think that 3 years ago, it wouldn't have been that way. I think "Through Glass" and "Into The Ocean" both had high "dislike" scores as well as high "like" scores on callout - in other words, a lot of HACs that didn't lean alternative didn't play them b/c they caused too many listeners to change the station
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Aug 14, 2007 17:39:39 GMT -5
I just think that "Through Glass" by Stone Sour and "Into the Ocean" by Blue October probably should have gone top 5 on Hot AC, but instead "Say It Right" by Nelly Furtado and "The Sweet Escape" by Gwen Stefani f/Akon made the top 5. I think that 3 years ago, it wouldn't have been that way. I think "Through Glass" and "Into The Ocean" both had high "dislike" scores as well as high "like" scores on callout - in other words, a lot of HACs that didn't lean alternative didn't play them b/c they caused too many listeners to change the station Kinda hard to believe, but (personally) I will change the station when a song like "Rehab" or "Umbrella" comes on.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Aug 14, 2007 22:22:25 GMT -5
I think "Through Glass" and "Into The Ocean" both had high "dislike" scores as well as high "like" scores on callout - in other words, a lot of HACs that didn't lean alternative didn't play them b/c they caused too many listeners to change the station Kinda hard to believe, but (personally) I will change the station when a song like "Rehab" or "Umbrella" comes on. I actually like hearing songs like that on Hot AC's these days, as long as they stay away from the hard core rap and hip-hop. Again as I stated in an earlier post, the Canadian Hot AC charts are filled with pop crossovers, but not so much that they drive away the over 25 crowd. I do sort of agree with you about "Rehab" though. That song took an absolute whipping on the CHR chart this week, and is starting to head into that direction on Hot AC as well. I think people liked the sound of the song, but the message of the song and the behavior of the artist I think are doing this song in way quicker than would be expected.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 15, 2007 8:27:21 GMT -5
I think "Through Glass" and "Into The Ocean" both had high "dislike" scores as well as high "like" scores on callout - in other words, a lot of HACs that didn't lean alternative didn't play them b/c they caused too many listeners to change the station Kinda hard to believe, but (personally) I will change the station when a song like "Rehab" or "Umbrella" comes on. IMO that's why "Umbrella" is charting so low on HAC and why "Rehab" is having such a short chart run - these two songs prob. have high dislike scores also (on HAC)
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Sept 6, 2007 10:29:55 GMT -5
There is still plenty of room at Hot AC for African-American artists; there are tons of tunes from the past twenty years from the likes of Aretha Franklin, Whitney, Janet, Anita Baker, Mariah, Madonna & Toni Braxton which would be perfect fits for the format, as well as 'Buttons' by the Pussycat Dolls, as well as all the 80's classics from Prince, Bobby Brown, James Brown, MJ and the Phillip Bailey/Phil Collins smash 'Easy Lover' from 1986.
Leave the rap to the local CHR/Rhythmic, CHR/Pop & Urban stations; let them play 'Over & Over' 130+ times per week!!!!!
OTOH, you (Mr. or Ms. Hot AC PD) can gleefully spin 'Makes Me Wonder' or 'The Sweet Escape' 35-42 times per week, and enjoy some obscene ratings, and tons of cash flow to boot!!!!!
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Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Sept 6, 2007 12:14:12 GMT -5
When did this become a racial issue?
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Sept 6, 2007 16:17:56 GMT -5
When did this become a racial issue? Yeah - not sure what ur responding to Marv :) Not too many HAC's are gonna play Anita Baker, Aretha Franklin, and Toni Braxton though...are u talkin about lite ACs? Just so you know, there are a lot of HAC's that do play "Over And Over" - sorry man wasn't sure what u were tryin to say though - if it's that black R&B music isn't gettin played on HAC, the #1 song write now is by Fergie, Rihanna's been charting, the Pussycat Dolls have to an extent, some HACs have even been tryin out Nelly and Kanye West esp. at night
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Sept 6, 2007 16:20:14 GMT -5
When did this become a racial issue? Originally (a couple of weeks ago I think) we were talkin about why many Hot AC stations play Linkin Park "In The End" but won't touch rap
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