Marv
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Post by Marv on Jul 12, 2007 20:50:41 GMT -5
This is going to be REALLY long, so hang in there.
1)---Hot AC stations that have artists such as Eminem and 50 Cent in their libraries are really asking for its ratinngs-wise; the 'soccer moms' and other baby-boomers who are started bailing out of tjhe top 40 format in the late eighties to get away from the hard-core rap artists and songs of those days ('I Wanna Sex You Up', 'Cop Killer', etc.) are just as likely to bail out of THAT Hot AC station today as they were to start fleeing the likes of KIIS-FM in the late eighties.
Those women (whom, as Kelowna20 flawlessly remarked above), control the major expenditures of today's families, with houses and automobiles being #1 & #2, and they undoubtedly will flee from any Hot AC station that cranks up a 50 Cent song, or any Eminem track.
They specifically left CHR/Pop in the late eighties to get away from rap music (and keep it away from the eardrums of their very impressionble sons & daughters), so any Hot AC PD who has the audacity to have 'Lose Yourself' or 'Goodies' in their library is an idiot.
2)---CHR/Pop's habit of playing their 'powers' 100+ times per week essentially guarantees that adults won't listen very much.
Hot AC stations rarely play their 'powers' more than 42 times per week, but can go as high as 54, or once very three hours.
That's because their core audience (adults 25-54, with women 25-54 the key 'demo-within-a-demo'), don't need to hear 'Complicated', 'Crazy', 'The Sweet Escape' or any of the biggest CHR & Hot AC tunes of this decade nearly as much as the 12-17, 12-24 and 18-34 year-olds who comprise the target demo of CHR/Pop stations (at least those of Clear Channel, with KIIS & WKSC leading the list.
3)---Today's 25-44 and/or 25-54 year-old women want to feel hip and contemporary (that ain't rocket science folks---promise!!!), and Hot AC does that better than any other format out there these days.
If you take a look at the AC charts in BB/R&R (or listen to either Dick Clark's or Casey Kasem's AC countdown shows), there are some AC stations out there which are far more adventurous than many of you would be inclined to believe.
4)---Women tend to change formats quicker than men, according to numerous PDs out there; the mantra for many PDs out there, whether it be for a Hot AC, AC, Country, Classic Hits, or Adult Hits (JACK-FM) has always been 'go after the females and the men will (hopefully) come along for the ride'.
5)---The existence of the Hot AC format stems specifically from the inability of adults to tolerate rap music; as I stated earlier, one of the most popular positiong statements for Hot AC since its creation in the mid-nineties was 'today's best music without the rap and hip-hop'.
The mantra for top 40 powerhouses during the sixties, seventies and eighties was also very simple; 'get the kids to listen so you can sell stuff to their moms'.
When that became impossible starting in the late eighties and was essentially a done deal by 1992, that's when Hot AC stations started popping up everywhere, and it essentially became the format of choice for adults by the truckloads by the late nineties.
6)---If CHR/Pop was still a mass-appeal format as it was originally designed to be, it would be the 'format of choice' today that it was during the eighties (before surrendering that distinction to Hot AC by the mid-nineties), when KIIS had that 10.0 rating in the fall of 1984.
It was always possible to hear Bryan Adams, Van Halen, Kenny Rogers, Kim Carnes, Lionel Richie, Sheena Easton, Prince, Don Henley, Huey Lewis & The News, Def Leppard, Phil Collins, Genesis, Prince, Tina Turner, The Pretenders and the Cars on the same radio station back then..
However, thanks to consultants, the beancounters at Emmis & Clear Channel. and that very strict ceiling of having no more than 250-300 songs in your library (excluding the JACK-FM stations out there), that is flat-out impossible today, and that's why radio isn't what it used to be., and NOWHERE is that more evident than at CHR/Pop radio today.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Jul 12, 2007 22:25:09 GMT -5
Excellent post Marv! I couldn't agree with you more on all points! Outside of a Gym Class Heroes or Mat Kearney song once in a while (neither of which is entirely rap anyway), rap has no business anywhere near Hot AC radio, especially the "gangsta" rap that amazingly is being played on stations that pass themselves as Hot AC. Also forget 250 to 300 song libraries. If WKSC in Chicago has a 100 song library, I'd be shocked!
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jul 12, 2007 23:40:57 GMT -5
Thanks musicfan pete---I really appreciate the kind words.
As I said awhile ago, hearing 'Over & Over' or 'Cupid's Chokehold' on 'Casey's Top 20' was somewhat startling, but the fact those songs never (or haven't sniffed the top five) at Hot AC tells me that most of the Hot AC PDs out there know what they're doing.
Also, that 250-300 song cap for most libraries does not apply to CHR/Pop radio today.
Let's face it---when you've played most of your 'power songs' well over 100 times per week on a weekly basis for over FIVE years, you are bound to have a VERY small library, because the overwhelming percentage of hits you've been playing since 'Complicated' was #1 five years ago today have been burnt to a crisp, and nobody wants to hear them ever again!!!!!!!
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KelownaGuy20
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Post by KelownaGuy20 on Jul 13, 2007 0:43:34 GMT -5
1)---Hot AC stations that have artists such as Eminem and 50 Cent in their libraries are really asking for its ratinngs-wise; the 'soccer moms' and other baby-boomers who are started bailing out of tjhe top 40 format in the late eighties to get away from the hard-core rap artists and songs of those days ('I Wanna Sex You Up', 'Cop Killer', etc.) are just as likely to bail out of THAT Hot AC station today as they were to start fleeing the likes of KIIS-FM in the late eighties. My big question, though, is just how many HotAC stations are targeting women who were looking to escape CHR in the late 80s? If you think about it, if a woman were abandoning CHR in the late 80s, let's say her age then was, I dunno... 24. Fast forward roughly 17-18 years, this woman now is more than 40, and chances are she's beyond the target demo of many HotAC stations... she's moved into AC and Oldies programming, demo wise (which is almost a sad fact). Now, if an AC station started spinning "In Da Club," I could honestly see that they would have no idea what in the world they were doing. But, when you think about it like this, "In Da Club" was released in 2003. Yeah, 4 whole years ago. Nothing major, but within the same breath, a 30 year old woman, someone who could, IN THEORY be right in the middle of a stations's target, was in her mid 20s at the time, and since "In Da Club" represented the epitome of mainstream rap, is it THAT outlandish to see her still wanting to hear a track like that on occasion? I mean, obviously a woman in her later 30s wouldn't be overly happy to hear a track like that, but a woman in her early to mid 20s likely isn't too thrilled to hear... I dunno... who's boring... um... Rob Thomas all the freakin' time. Frankly, knowing your audience, and knowing how it's evolving, I don't see why it's such an issue for a HotAC station to have a select few "hip hop" tracks in limited rotations. Songs like "Lose Yourself" and "Mo Money Mo Problems" were massive singles during their chart runs (hell, "Lose Yourself" won a freakin' Oscar!), and just someone reached a certain age doesn't mean that they don't want to hear them. By no means should HotAC start spinning "f**k Tha Police" or anything, absolutely not.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 13, 2007 14:34:49 GMT -5
Thanks musicfan pete---I really appreciate the kind words. As Let's face it---when you've played most of your 'power songs' well over 100 times per week on a weekly basis for over FIVE years, you are bound to have a VERY small library, because the overwhelming percentage of hits you've been playing since 'Complicated' was #1 five years ago today have been burnt to a crisp, and nobody wants to hear them ever again!!!!!!! Nice post, Marv!! What it seems like, though, is that the DEFINITION OF CHR HAS CHANGED!! (I think about 1999) The major distinction you (actually everyone) draws between CHR and Hot AC is now the number of plays songs get The weird thing is - back in the 80s and 90s, CHR's spun their biggest songs 50-60 times per week, just like many Hot AC's do now - THAT'S WHY I THINK HOT AC'S SHOULD COUNT IN THE CHR PANEL TO BALANCE THE CHART :) In 1999-2000, the Clear Channel Kiss CHR's started spinning their biggest songs 100x per week (I think it started with WNOU/Indianapolis), and now most CHR's followed the example IMO there is no reason a Hot AC station which spins its top songs more than 50 times a week shouldn't be considered CHR (for chart purposes) - yes, Hot AC's are geared towards 25-44 women, but so were nearly all CHR's in the 80s, and many CHR's in the 90s For example, if "Summer Love" by Justin Timberlake had been released in 1995, there is NO WAY it would have hit #1 over "Home" by Daughtry and "Makes Me Wonder" by Maroon 5 b/c back then CHRs that appealed to 25-44 women were still considered CHR, not separated and labeled Hot AC
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Jul 13, 2007 18:30:37 GMT -5
About the rapping, I think it's okay if the CHROUS is NOT rap.
That's why I think "Hey Ya", "Cupid's Chokehold", and now "Undeniable" were respectable hits here, because the main part of the songs are all singing, and the rapping is left only to the verses, as with everything by Eminem and 50 Cent is simply rap, they have absoulutly no place in Hot AC (the only exception I can think of is "When I'm Gone" by Eminem and possibly "Mockingbird"- but either way- they don't belong on Hot AC in my opinion).
Still don't know why "What it's Like" was as big as it was on Hot AC. It peaked at #7. Would that make it the biggest rap hit in Hot AC history? I'm almost positive that it would. What amazes me is that "Hey Ya", a song that wasn't nearly as urban-leaning as "What it's Like", peaked much lower in a much more rap-friendly era (early 2004).
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Hot AC Archiver
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Post by Hot AC Archiver on Jul 13, 2007 20:16:39 GMT -5
I'm just taking a guess here, but perhaps "What It's Like" was seen more as a spoken word song rather than "rap". There is a difference between the two genres.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Jul 13, 2007 21:29:17 GMT -5
About the rapping, I think it's okay if the CHROUS is NOT rap. That's why I think "Hey Ya", "Cupid's Chokehold", and now "Undeniable" were respectable hits here, because the main part of the songs are all singing, and the rapping is left only to the verses, as with everything by Eminem and 50 Cent is simply rap, they have absoulutly no place in Hot AC (the only exception I can think of is "When I'm Gone" by Eminem and possibly "Mockingbird"- but either way- they don't belong on Hot AC in my opinion). Still don't know why "What it's Like" was as big as it was on Hot AC. It peaked at #7. Would that make it the biggest rap hit in Hot AC history? I'm almost positive that it would. What amazes me is that "Hey Ya", a song that wasn't nearly as urban-leaning as "What it's Like", peaked much lower in a much more rap-friendly era (early 2004). Uhhh, the last time I checked, both "Hey Ya" and "What It's Like" don't contain any rapping. I believe they both sing the entire song, save for the part where Outkast is "talking" to the guys and ladies toward the end of "Hey Ya". "Undeniable" and "Cupid's Chokehold"? Yes, those are definately rap songs, at least in parts. :)
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Jul 13, 2007 21:49:22 GMT -5
About the rapping, I think it's okay if the CHROUS is NOT rap. That's why I think "Hey Ya", "Cupid's Chokehold", and now "Undeniable" were respectable hits here, because the main part of the songs are all singing, and the rapping is left only to the verses, as with everything by Eminem and 50 Cent is simply rap, they have absoulutly no place in Hot AC (the only exception I can think of is "When I'm Gone" by Eminem and possibly "Mockingbird"- but either way- they don't belong on Hot AC in my opinion). Still don't know why "What it's Like" was as big as it was on Hot AC. It peaked at #7. Would that make it the biggest rap hit in Hot AC history? I'm almost positive that it would. What amazes me is that "Hey Ya", a song that wasn't nearly as urban-leaning as "What it's Like", peaked much lower in a much more rap-friendly era (early 2004). Uhhh, the last time I checked, both "Hey Ya" and "What It's Like" don't contain any rapping. I believe they both sing the entire song, save for the part where Outkast is "talking" to the guys and ladies toward the end of "Hey Ya". "Undeniable" and "Cupid's Chokehold"? Yes, those are definately rap songs, at least in parts. :) Well, with "Hey Ya", the versus could be considered as rapping, at least to a Hot AC audience anyways. As with "What it's Like", he may be singing the lyrics but heck, it has a rap feel to it and the lyrics are very iffy for Hot AC. BTW, would you consider "Curbside Profit" (which I believe peaked at #23 on Hot AC) rap? Because some do, and it's defanitly less of a rap song than "what it's like". :)
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Jul 13, 2007 22:09:09 GMT -5
Uhhh, the last time I checked, both "Hey Ya" and "What It's Like" don't contain any rapping. I believe they both sing the entire song, save for the part where Outkast is "talking" to the guys and ladies toward the end of "Hey Ya". "Undeniable" and "Cupid's Chokehold"? Yes, those are definately rap songs, at least in parts. :) Well, with "Hey Ya", the versus could be considered as rapping, at least to a Hot AC audience anyways. As with "What it's Like", he may be singing the lyrics but heck, it has a rap feel to it and the lyrics are very iffy for Hot AC. BTW, would you consider "Curbside Profit" (which I believe peaked at #23 on Hot AC) rap? Because some do, and it's defanitly less of a rap song than "what it's like". :) No, I don't consider "Curbside Prophet" a rap either. But I do agree with your point about "What It's Like". It did very well considering it's questionable lyrics, similar to "U + Ur Hand" today. Maybe Everlast was year's ahead of it's time. But the song also fit in with a more alternative leaning sound that dominated Hot AC at the time. It's always interesting to see how the sound of the music evolves amongst the different formats over the years.
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Jul 13, 2007 22:45:24 GMT -5
Well, with "Hey Ya", the versus could be considered as rapping, at least to a Hot AC audience anyways. As with "What it's Like", he may be singing the lyrics but heck, it has a rap feel to it and the lyrics are very iffy for Hot AC. BTW, would you consider "Curbside Profit" (which I believe peaked at #23 on Hot AC) rap? Because some do, and it's defanitly less of a rap song than "what it's like". :) No, I don't consider "Curbside Prophet" a rap either. But I do agree with your point about "What It's Like". It did very well considering it's questionable lyrics, similar to "U + Ur Hand" today. Maybe Everlast was year's ahead of it's time. But the song also fit in with a more alternative leaning sound that dominated Hot AC at the time. It's always interesting to see how the sound of the music evolves amongst the different formats over the years. I agree. "What it's Like" went to #1 on mainstream rock I do believe. I agree with the "U+ UR Hand" statement, but I don't think a lot of users nessecairly interpereted the lyrics to what she really meant (I don't know anybody in person who knows exactly what she means), and it wasn't untill I read on here (about 3 or 4 months after first hearing the song), what the lyrics were actually saying. So honestly, what do you think Hot AC will be like in 5 years?
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jul 14, 2007 10:06:54 GMT -5
For openers, the reason that Bruce Hornsby's 'The Way It Is' sailed to #1 in 1986 (as did other AC and Smooth Jazz library cuts as 'That's What Friends Are For' & 'Greatest Love Of All'), as well as rock radio staples such as 'Land Of Confusion' & 'You Give Love A Bad Name' is simple; CHR/Pop was a mass-appeal format during that decade and the previous two, regardless of whether you broke it down as being a 12+, 12-54, 18-49 or 25-54 format.
The difference between his version of a 1987 charttopper (which he co-wrote with his brother John Hornsby) by one of the biggest bands of the entire decade and the version which blew onto the charts at once and skyrocketed to #1 in March of 1987 was just as pronounced as the difference between Metallica & Richard Marx!!!
You do remeber that Huey Lewis & The News smash entitled ['Jacob's Ladder/i], don't you? If Hot AC radio had been around back then, it would also have been a mass-appeal and multi-format smash!!!
When WKSC's PD was quoted in R&R a few weeks ago as stating that 'our objective is to dominate the 18-34 year old demo', I have yet to hear ANYBODY from corporate at CC chewing him out and/or revising his statement.
And I certainly don't expect to hear such a retraction anytime soon, and neither should anybody else.
It would make zero sense to combine the Hot AC chart of today with today's CHR/Pop chart for the purpose of fixing the 'problem' of 'the CHR/Pop chart being 'out of balance' for one EXTREMELY simple reason; it is NOT the CHR/Pop chart that is out of balance, but it is the music mix at today's alleged 'CHR/Pop stations which is the REAL culprit.
If CHR/Pop were indeed still the mass-appeal format today that it was during the eighties and in previous decades, you'd probably have no more than 20%-30% of the same songs on all three R&R/BB charts (CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic & Urban), as opposed to the current figure, which is somewhere in the vicinity of 75% minimum.
It would also be preposterous and EXTREMELY dangerous and really stupid for Hot AC to 'evolve into playing rap music' ;again, a 12-24 format and a 12+, 18-49 or 25-54 format share VERY few listeners, and the most important Hot AC listeners out there (women 25-54) would bail from Hot AC as quickly as they did from CHR/Pop starting in the late eighties.
'For a song such as 'Yeah!!', 'Hey Ya!!!' or 'Cupid's Chokehold' to show up on the playlists at SOME Hot AC stations is mildly surprising, but you can rest assured that given radio's addicting to testing, research, & consultants, such songs would under RIGOROUS testing before hitting the airwaves at a Hot AC station.
OTOH, if 'Beat It', '1999', 'Love Will Never Do (Without You)' 'Vogue', 'How Will I Know?' and 'Vision Of Love' were all released on a week-by-week basis starting this Tuesday, they would undoubtedly ALL be added AT ONCE with little or NO testing at Hot AC radio.
A hard core rap song (Eminem/50 Cent/The Game) would NEVER gain acceptance at Hot AC radio, whereas an EXCEPTIONAL and simultaneously NON hard-core rap song would be a mortal lock playlist add & future smash at any intelligently programmed Hot AC station in America.
Unfortunately, the ONE song over the past few years which meets that criteria (the exhilirating and beyond exceptional 'Where Is The Love?' by the BEP) hasn't been matched by them or anybody else--'My Humps' is as silly and reprehensible as anything the genre has produced over the past two decades, and a vulgar video just adds insult to injury, IMHO.
There will always be room for rhtyhmic material at Hot AC radio; songs such as the previously mentioned 'Crazy', 'Buttons' by the PussyCat Dolls, as well as 90% of the material from the likes of Prince, MJ, Whitney, Mariah, Janet & Madonna going back to 'Billie Jean' in 1983 would be immediately and simultaneously added at CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic, Urban & Hot AC stations TODAY---if this were 1990 instead of 2007.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 14, 2007 10:49:35 GMT -5
Nice!! Marv, you are the man:)
I still just want to emphasize that if you DO combine the CHR/Pop and Hot AC charts of the 2000s, you come up with a chart that is extremely similar to the CHR charts of the 1980s, and mid-late 1990s (after the Rhythmic stations were separated in 1994, I think)
What has happened this decade is that the music spectrum has evolved so much that instead of having once CHR in a 1980s major market that is geared towars 18-44 females, you have one major market CHR geared towards 12-24 (or whatever the cutoff is), and a Hot AC geared towards 24-44 - that was my rationale for combining the charts (although I agree it won't happen)
I'm not sure rhythmic-leaning CHR stations would change their music mix - for example if a CHR station in the 1980s were strictly geared towards 12-24, it would've heavily played Michael Jackson, Prince, Janet Jackson, Madonna, acts like the Mary Jane Girls, New Edition etc. and probably WOULD NOT have played Tina Turner's "What's Love Got To Do With It" (which hit #1), Peter Gabriel, Steve Winwood, Phil Collins, Huey Lewis, Bruce Hornsby, etc.
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shocker
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Post by shocker on Jul 14, 2007 22:27:45 GMT -5
"What It's Like" is by a singer who used to be a member of a rap group - House of Pain. I think that's why some people think of Everlast's solo as being rap; although it's not a rap song. It has an urban feel to it, but it's more alternative if anything. That's why it did so well on rock stations, and modern AC.
"Hey Ya", on the other hand was classified as rap; and it's officially the highest-charting rap hit on Hot AC so far. But even that song had some success on modern rock stations, believe it or not. That could explain its success at Hot AC.
As for "Cupid's Chokehold", I would call it "pop-rap". It's safe enough for Hot AC stations. For some reason, it puts me in mind of White Town's "Your Woman". I can't explain the comparison, but it just has the same feel to it.
"Over and Over" by Nelly feat. Tim McGraw did mildly well at Hot AC, but that song is not rap! It's a rhythmic ballad. It charted pretty high on CHR, and it did make the rap chart; but it peaked rather low on the R&B chart, and didn't make the country chart at all. It even got some airplay on some regular AC stations because it was slow and melodic enough for that format. I'm pretty certain that guest vocals by McGraw helped it along at AC too.
"Undeniable" - nope, not a true rap song. I would classify it in the same category as "Cupid's Chokehold" - "pop-rap".
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Jul 14, 2007 22:55:00 GMT -5
Do you guys think that if a song like "Stickwitu" by The Pussycat Dolls was released in late 2007 rather than late 2005, it would probably go top 20? I'm also thinking that The Black Eyed Peas could have very well gotten thier singles to go top 20 if they were released today.
One thing we haven't brought up yet is if you think these rhythmic artists coming over to Hot AC will affect artists such as The Goo Goo Dolls? They are already being hindered by "newer" acts like Daughtry. What do you guys think about that?
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Jul 14, 2007 23:53:27 GMT -5
Do you guys think that if a song like "Stickwitu" by The Pussycat Dolls was released in late 2007 rather than late 2005, it would probably go top 20? I'm also thinking that The Black Eyed Peas could have very well gotten thier singles to go top 20 if they were released today. One thing we haven't brought up yet is if you think these rhythmic artists coming over to Hot AC will affect artists such as The Goo Goo Dolls? They are already being hindered by "newer" acts like Daughtry. What do you guys think about that? I think the Goo Goo Dolls will continue to do well at the format as long as they keep their sound fresh, something that have not done for awhile though. Their current hit "Before It's Too Late" sounds a bit fresher, but not much. So it should be interesting in seeing how far up the chart this song goes. But as I said, more rhythmic artists should not effect how well good alternative leaning acts perform on the chart. As long as the Daughtry's of the world continue to release quality product, they will be fine. That is unless Hot AC decides to skew 80% hip-hop in the future!
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shocker
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Post by shocker on Jul 15, 2007 0:29:34 GMT -5
As long as the Daughtry's of the world continue to release quality product, they will be fine. That is unless Hot AC decides to skew 80% hip-hop in the future! Shhhh! Don't even suggest such a horrendous thought as more hip-hop on Hot AC! >:( >:( >:( These days, regular AC is still too soft for the most part, with too many oldies; and CHR is too teen-oriented. If Hot AC starts adding more rap, where will those of us 30-somethings who want to hear current music without the rap turn to?
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Jul 15, 2007 0:52:35 GMT -5
shocker, that's exactly my point. They will have to create a new format for us 30-somethings (and teens ) who want to listen to new music without the rap. I'll take CHR over AC though.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 15, 2007 8:35:07 GMT -5
Guys - don't worry - the only Hot AC's that play rap (Eminem, 50 Cent, Shop Boyz type) are small-market stations that don't have a CHR/Pop in the market, so they play rap at night to cater towards the younger listeners, while the 30-something listeners are watching prime-time T.V. (that's my take on it anyway)IMO
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jul 22, 2007 7:48:35 GMT -5
The definition of CHR/Pop HAS changed; it's no longer a mass-appeal format, and that goes back to the early nineties, when 'End Of The Road' and 'Jump' (Kriss Kross) were getting beaten to death 60+ times per week at CHR/Pop radio because the adults and baby-boomers who grew up with the format had started bailing out in the late eighties, thanks to KIIS's overreaction to Power 106 in 1987, and Tampa's CHR/Pop station (don't recall the call letters).
Hot AC circa 2007=CHR/Pop of the eighties, as THE mass-appeal format of all formats.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 22, 2007 9:50:06 GMT -5
Marv - IMO you're right that Hot AC is more mass appeal than many CHR's, but the problem is..."Lose Yourself" by Eminem and "Yeah" by Usher were huge hits, as was "Umbrella" and Hot AC's didn't touch them
IMO the only current mass-appeal stations right now are the (mostly) smaller market CHR's (and some Hot AC's) that really do play all kinds of music, regardless of genre - Star 94/Atlanta and Q100 are definitely mass-appeal CHR's also - Q100 plays both "Party Like A Rockstar" and "Little Wonders"
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Jul 22, 2007 16:52:34 GMT -5
Do you guys think Hot AC is in fact safe from becoming rap-ridden?
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jul 24, 2007 9:21:00 GMT -5
Hot AC is very safe from becoming as infested with rap music as CHR/Pop has been for several years running.
The Hot AC PDs out there certainly know that the most-wanted audience out there (adults 25-54, and women 25-54, since they make and/or control most of the major purhcases of today's households, such as houses and automobiles) does NOT want to listen to rap music under any circumstances, and would be idiots to add such music to their playlists.
'Lose Yourself' was a huge hit at top 40 radio because Eminem's (and the rest of the hard core rappers of the past 5-20 years) core audience was simultaneously the core audience of top 40 radio (12-24 and/or 12-34); ditto for hits from the likes of Nelly, Usher, JLo & numerous others.
Hard core rap music is never appropriate at a MASS-APPEAL format such as AC or Hot AC.
Hot AC ignored 'Lose Yourself', 'Cleaning Out My Closet' and numerous other hard-core rap tunes for fear of blowing off those most-desired 25-54 listeners with their VERY deep pockets and TONS of disposable income.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 24, 2007 15:31:47 GMT -5
Hot AC is very safe from becoming as infested with rap music as CHR/Pop has been for several years running. The Hot AC PDs out there certainly know that the most-wanted audience out there (adults 25-54, and women 25-54, since they make and/or control most of the major purhcases of today's households, such as houses and automobiles) does NOT want to listen to rap music under any circumstances, and would be idiots to add such music to their playlists. 'Lose Yourself' was a huge hit at top 40 radio because Eminem's (and the rest of the hard core rappers of the past 5-20 years) core audience was simultaneously the core audience of top 40 radio (12-24 and/or 12-34); ditto for hits from the likes of Nelly, Usher, JLo & numerous others. Hard core rap music is never appropriate at a MASS-APPEAL format such as AC or Hot AC. Hot AC ignored 'Lose Yourself', 'Cleaning Out My Closet' and numerous other hard-core rap tunes for fear of blowing off those most-desired 25-54 listeners with their VERY deep pockets and TONS of disposable income. Marv I take it you don't like rap :) Yeah - the whole reason there is Hot AC is for Top 40 listeners that don't want to hear rap, or at least not tons of it - I wouldn't call "Lose Yourself" or "In Da Club" hard-core, though, and wouldn't be surprised if Hot AC's 5 years from now played these songs as recurrents IMO in order to be a "mass-appeal" station (Hot AC or CHR/Pop) right now, you have to be playing Fergie, Rob Thomas, Pink, and the Goo Goo Dolls, with "Buy U A Drank" somewhere on your playlist (NOT 100x a week b/c this song only appeals to youngest demographic) - if you don't play T-Pain at all, it's like not playing the Goo Goo Dolls at all, and IMO you can't really call yourself "Mass-Appeal" in that case
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jul 25, 2007 12:28:08 GMT -5
There is no reason for a mass-appeal radio station to play rap music under any circumstances!!!!
Being a 'rap-free' format is rthe primary reason for the existence of the Hot AC format in the first place.
The format was created for adults who want to feel hip and contemporary but with NO rap music whatsoever, not even the early silly and downright hysterical rap tunes such as 'Bust A Move'.
Of course 12-17 and 12-24 year olds who can't stand rap are also prime candidates to become steady and consistent Hot AC listeners, due in part to the skyrocketing amount of country music found at both Hot AC and (especially AC stations.
The seven year gap between top ten country tunes at CHR/Pop radio ('The Way You Love Me' to 'Before he Cheats') is a dead giveaway that Hot AC and AC stations are much more mass-appeal formats than today's version of CHR/Pop radio.
As long as CHR/Pop. Urban & CHR/Rhythmic stations continue to have over seventy percent of the same tunes on the air at all three formats from coast-to-coast, CHR/Pop cannot be considered a mass-appeal format under any circumstances.
If your station's #1 objective is to be a mass-appeal format, playing rap music is out of the question; that's the fastest way to blow off your adult listeners, who came to your station in the first place to get away from rap music.
To put it another way---If CHR/Pop was still a mass-appeal format as it was always intended to be[/b], then there would be far fewer reasons for the Hot AC format to exist in the first place.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 25, 2007 15:24:50 GMT -5
There is no reason for a mass-appeal radio station to play rap music under any circumstances!!!! WHAT??? That's what "mass-appeal" means - ALL kinds of music That's like saying "mass-appeal" stations can't touch country songs, or 90s Rock bands, or anything R&B, or, for that matter, any song performed by black Americans or hispanic Americans Are you sure you mean what you're saying? :) I agree that rap and R&B is mostly what separates Hot AC from CHR/Pop right now, but that's why the only mass-appeal stations are ones like Q100 ATL, WWMX Baltimore, and WPRO Providence that play ALL kinds of music w/o prejudice SOME CHRs are mass-appeal, and SOME Hot ACs are mass appeal, but most of these are in small markets where CHR and Hot AC are not divided up
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Hot AC Archiver
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Post by Hot AC Archiver on Jul 25, 2007 15:48:35 GMT -5
I think one aspect that Marv's trying to get at is that rap is something that you either love or hate, without much in between. If a station plays rap, they immediately alienate a group of people and cause them to change the station. On the other hand, a country song that leans more adult contemporary won't necessarily cause people to switch the station right away.
I don't think there's a need to bring out the race card here. Rap is done by all races so excluding rap isn't excluding a certain race.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Jul 25, 2007 16:00:33 GMT -5
There is no reason for a mass-appeal radio station to play rap music under any circumstances!!!! WHAT??? That's what "mass-appeal" means - ALL kinds of music That's like saying "mass-appeal" stations can't touch country songs, or 90s Rock bands, or anything R&B, or, for that matter, any song performed by black Americans or hispanic Americans Are you sure you mean what you're saying? :) I agree that rap and R&B is mostly what separates Hot AC from CHR/Pop right now, but that's why the only mass-appeal stations are ones like Q100 ATL, WWMX Baltimore, and WPRO Providence that play ALL kinds of music w/o prejudice SOME CHRs are mass-appeal, and SOME Hot ACs are mass appeal, but most of these are in small markets where CHR and Hot AC are not divided up Sorry atlantaboy, but I have to agree with Marv on this one. :) Hot AC's should be extremely careful with adding rap music. Even the "hysterical" sounding raps from the late 80's just open's the door for some Hot AC's to get a bit carried away in adding 50 Cent or Eminem. Now, songs with a brief rap in the bridge of the song (ie: "Cupid's Chokehold" or "Undeniable") I think would be an acceptable compromise. But no, no, no. Eminem and 50 Cent don't belong within 5000 miles of a Hot AC station. Period. End of story! I think the confusion here rides with the definition of "mass appeal". Do you mean it to be mass appeal as in playing all types of music, or mass appeal as in trying to attract the widest possible audience? I think Marv and myself think mass appeal fits the latter definition, while you believe it means to play all types of genres of music. In my opinion though, playing rap and hard rock for that matter will not attract the widest, largest possible audience. Therefore, rap and hard rock should be relegated toward other formats. Not that there's anything wrong with playing rap as part of a mass appeal "music" station. It's just that that won't attract a wide audience. Therefore atlantaboy, your definition of mass appeal will attract a sizeable teen and young adult audience, but my definition will attract a larger young adult audience along with some "disgruntled" teens who don't like rap, and even some older adults who like to be in tune with hipper, more current music. Also, in defense of Marv, I don't think he meant anything derrogatory or racist towards black and Hispanic Americans. There are plenty of artists from those backgrounds who write great music that appeals to a huge audience that are more than welcome at the Hot AC format.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jul 25, 2007 19:34:17 GMT -5
Yeah - I think Marv and I meant different things by "mass-appeal" - I thought "mass-appeal" meant playing all kinds of music on one station, from as many different genres as possible (like WPRO, WNKS, WWWQ, etc.) - that's why I mentioned playing hits that appeal to many ethnicities etc.
If HOT AC wants to attract the largest possible audience 25-44 etc., yeah, then they shouldn't play rap or metal etc. - but Hot AC doesn't attract a huge audience nationwide (compared to other formats) - that's why I thought by "mass-appeal" Marv meant encompassing all types of music (from Goo Goo Dolls to Eminem)
Rap alienates older listeners, but songs like "Better Days" alienate younger listeners - that's why this mass-appeal Hot AC thing doesn't make any sense to me ???
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Jul 25, 2007 21:11:09 GMT -5
Yeah - I think Marv and I meant different things by "mass-appeal" - I thought "mass-appeal" meant playing all kinds of music on one station, from as many different genres as possible (like WPRO, WNKS, WWWQ, etc.) - that's why I mentioned playing hits that appeal to many ethnicities etc. If HOT AC wants to attract the largest possible audience 25-44 etc., yeah, then they shouldn't play rap or metal etc. - but Hot AC doesn't attract a huge audience nationwide (compared to other formats) - that's why I thought by "mass-appeal" Marv meant encompassing all types of music (from Goo Goo Dolls to Eminem) Rap alienates older listeners, but songs like "Better Days" alienate younger listeners - that's why this mass-appeal Hot AC thing doesn't make any sense to me ??? That makes me feel really weird- hahah. In late 2005, "Better Days" was one of my favorite songs (I was 14 then). Guess I'm weird, hahah!! As for the "mass-appeal" thing, I agree with atlantaboy; but I don't think Hot AC was intended to be a "mass appeal" format, it was intended to be a format for hip music without hip hop )obviously, we have evolved from Elton John and "soft" Madonna to Green Day and Nickelback, but still). I thought pop was supposed to be the mass-appeal, but Hot AC has defianitly taken that throne. Which is why I agree with mrclimbfall20's original post that began this thread- IT MAY BE BECOMING A DIFFERENT FORMAT THAN IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN. :)
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