michellef
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Post by michellef on Oct 13, 2012 11:37:30 GMT -5
What most people are upset about is non-genre airplay counting towards genre charts. I don't like how in the other response they mention not being able to separate out genre sales and streaming. So what? You can separate out genre airplay, so why not do it? With their reasoning I wouldn't ever recycle; my recycling company won't separate out plastic but will separate out paper. I guess I can't recycle paper because we can't separate out everything. WTH? Lame. But it's not non-genre airplay. A country song played on a pop station is still a country song (unless it's a remix version which is a different matter). There's a difference between a genre and a format. I don't think the existence of this new chart should be a problem since the old charts still exist. I think doing it the way many people are suggesting is just redundant. Though having this new chart replace the old airplay-only chart right away might not have been the best idea. so then with this logic, you agree that none of the sales of "WANEGBT" should count towards this chart because they are from the pop version?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 11:45:16 GMT -5
Whether poeple here agree or disagree that We Are Never.. is a pop song or a country song, One thing is certain, it is a hit by a recognized country artist. The industry that provides input in how this song is marketed has decided to call it a country song. Thus that is how it is reflected.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 13, 2012 11:46:22 GMT -5
I guess the question then to ask is whether country radio listeners should be the only ones to dictate whether a country song is deserving to be the most popular or not. Again, it comes down to making it into a radio issue. I never listen to listen to country radio. Ever. But I buy occasional country music albums and have a number of country artists that I enjoy very much. And who is arguing your downloads shouldn't be counted? I don't see anyone saying that. Where is this "all or nothing" mentality coming from? I think if Billboard had just changed their methodology to include downloads (and maybe streaming) and that was it, there wouldn't be much controversy at all. People understand including sales. Again, what people are upset about is Top 40 airplay counting toward genre charts. Let's see the reaction when Taylor has pop songs spending dozens of weeks at #1 on Country Song at the expense of true country hits. "WANEGBT" would be on its 9th week at #1 right now had the methodology been in place all year. And it has no real end in sight since its non-country airplay is still increasing. Is that really what people want? I think there's simply a misunderstanding of the purpose of these new charts. They aren't limiting themselves to radio formats. They're to determine the most popular songs of those genres for that particular period. Before these charts came about, there was no such thing as a Genre chart because the charts before now were based on radio formats. These new ones aren't. I think non-genre airplay being included is good. The chart is intended to measure the popularity of country songs, not country songs within the country market. A country song being played on another format is still a country song and SHOULD be a bigger hit But how does that help country PDs, record labels, etc. know what a country audience wants to hear? As has been stated, the goal is now general crossover acceptance. In other words, artists like Frank Ocean, Anita Baker, Dierks Bentley, Patty Loveless, etc. are going to be marginalized because they cater to a specific audience and not a broad one. That's a real slippery slope. Who ever said it has to? Maybe there is no goal for these charts other than to issue a weekly printout of the most popular songs of a particular genre. The PDs and labels can still focus on the airplay chart if they need to. They're still there. I don't agree with this. Billboard already has a chart which includes sales and streamings: the Hot 100. Even when Frank's song will not be played at Urban radio, its airplay at other formats, its sales and its streamings will still contribute to its showing and peak on the Billboard Hot 100. As long as he has airplay on Urban radio, it will be reflected on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart. When Urban radio stops playing it, it will go recurrent. No big deal, it'll still be a hit on another chart. Ok. So the Hot 100 shows this. These new charts are an extension of the Hot 100 just sorted out and elongated to give more information than we normally have available. Other than the idea that these new charts will now be the "official" ones, why is that an issue? the new genre-based charts should not be sharing the name and history of the old format-based charts when they measure completely different things. Can't say I disagree to an extent because it is, in essence, a different chart. Though when the Hot 100 changed drastically in 1998 to allow radio airplay to count for the first time, and again when they allowed digital purchases to count, the chart still kept the same title it had before and it still had the same significance in the industry it held before. As WotUNeed posted, there just has to be the added context that the change was made when looking back. The new R&B and Country charts are claiming to measure subcultures bu have changed the sampling frame from the Urban core and Country core to the whole country; yet call it the same thing as before. Are they claiming to measure subcultures? I figured that's what was being done before and now they are being more inclusive? Why "Red" is #2 on the hot country songs chart when it has not been released to country radio is also beyond me. Popularity is measured with more than just radio.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 11:46:28 GMT -5
Whether poeple here agree or disagree that We Are Never.. is a pop song or a country song, One thing is certain, it is a hit by a recognized country artist. The industry that provides input in how this song is marketed has decided to call it a country song. Thus that is how it is reflected. Oh. Now it all makes sense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 11:47:47 GMT -5
As I stated on the last page, for those who want this chart to go away, there is a glimmer of hope that one day it will be overturned.
The Pop 100 was launched under a similar concept and it ultimately failed. Although it used pop airplay, it also incorporated all-genre digital charts and was eventually discontinued. However....
That move did not happen right away so, even in the most optimistic case, these charts will be here for a while.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 13, 2012 11:48:51 GMT -5
But it's not non-genre airplay. A country song played on a pop station is still a country song (unless it's a remix version which is a different matter). There's a difference between a genre and a format. I don't think the existence of this new chart should be a problem since the old charts still exist. I think doing it the way many people are suggesting is just redundant. Though having this new chart replace the old airplay-only chart right away might not have been the best idea. so then with this logic, you agree that none of the sales of "WANEGBT" should count towards this chart because they are from the pop version? I don't think We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together has any business being on the country chart in the first place. It's not a country song so no amount of sales, airplay (even on country stations) or streaming should allow it on there - UNLESS it's from the country version. They shouldn't combine the two for the purposes of these genre charts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 11:49:22 GMT -5
Whether poeple here agree or disagree that We Are Never.. is a pop song or a country song, One thing is certain, it is a hit by a recognized country artist. The industry that provides input in how this song is marketed has decided to call it a country song. Thus that is how it is reflected. Oh. Now it all makes sense. The complaining, protests, emails and petitions isn't going to change it. Just trying to interpret why things are the way they are.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 11:50:42 GMT -5
For the record, I agree that We Are Never Ever, is a pop song by a core country artist, however, the powers that make the chart are marketing it otherwise
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Hot AC Archiver
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Post by Hot AC Archiver on Oct 13, 2012 11:53:56 GMT -5
This discussion makes me think something very similar would have happened if the internet were widely available in 1991 when the Hot 100 changed. I followed the Hot 100 then, but after the changes, I only casually followed it and followed only the Radio & Records CHR chart (which has since changed to Hot AC as my username suggests :) ). The current Hot 100 shares its history with the old Hot 100, but again I personally only compare records for pre-1991 and post 1991. I was mad as hell when the change occurred, but over time I adapted.
That is what people are going to have to learn to do here with the new genre charts. Personally, I don't like the crossover airplay component of the new chart, but the other changes seem reasonable. Of course though I'm not as passionate about these changes since the chart I follow (Hot AC/Adult Pop Songs) is not changed (yet). :)
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michellef
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Post by michellef on Oct 13, 2012 12:06:46 GMT -5
Whether poeple here agree or disagree that We Are Never.. is a pop song or a country song, One thing is certain, it is a hit by a recognized country artist. The industry that provides input in how this song is marketed has decided to call it a country song. Thus that is how it is reflected. this is pure ignorance on your part then. "never" is a pop song...there is no agreeing or disagreeing, because it's a fact that nobody can argue. for billboard to put it on the country chart shows just what's wrong with these charts. a few people at BB cannot be the ones determining the genres for these songs. there was a country version created...therefore, the one being sold on itunes is the pop version. fact.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 12:11:08 GMT -5
Whether poeple here agree or disagree that We Are Never.. is a pop song or a country song, One thing is certain, it is a hit by a recognized country artist. The industry that provides input in how this song is marketed has decided to call it a country song. Thus that is how it is reflected. this is pure ignorance on your part then. "never" is a pop song...there is no agreeing or disagreeing, because it's a fact that nobody can argue. for billboard to put it on the country chart shows just what's wrong with these charts. a few people at BB cannot be the ones determining the genres for these songs. there was a country version created...therefore, the one being sold on itunes is the pop version. fact. "Pure Ignorance"?? - regarding what my opinion is on the genre of the song, I did post on that. BB is not the ones that determines how the song is listed. They seek input from the industry. What difference does my opinion make anyway? The charts are what they are. They were created probably at the request of the industry and at the very least with considerable input. Since these charts were not created for the fans, We are left with accepting that or choose to follow something else.
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michellef
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Post by michellef on Oct 13, 2012 12:17:48 GMT -5
this is pure ignorance on your part then. "never" is a pop song...there is no agreeing or disagreeing, because it's a fact that nobody can argue. for billboard to put it on the country chart shows just what's wrong with these charts. a few people at BB cannot be the ones determining the genres for these songs. there was a country version created...therefore, the one being sold on itunes is the pop version. fact. "Pure Ignorance"?? - regarding what my opinion is on the genre of the song, I did post on that. BB is not the ones that determines how the song is listed. They seek input from the industry. What difference does my opinion make anyway? The charts are what they are. They were created probably at the request of the industry and at the very least with considerable input. Since these charts were not created for the fans, We are left with accepting that or choose to follow something else. BB has said that they are the ones who decide. "Every week, Billboard makes dozens of calls about the various charts a song should be eligible for...The point is, we make these calls. We've been doing it for 50-plus years. We'll make a bunch more next week." Also, you never answered my other question. Do you think sales from the pop version of WANEGBT should count towards this country chart?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 12:24:27 GMT -5
The main clients of this magazine are industry execs and record labels - NOT THE FANS.
If for example 10 people at the labels say Taylor Swifts new song is to be marketed country and only one person says it is to be marketed pop. And the Billboard guy that you say makes all the decisions decides to list it as pop anyway, what do you think would happen?
They would be alienating their core customers and would ultimately be put out of business. No I think BB is not making the decisions, I think they are complying with their customers.
Unless you want to call the "decision" to be to agree with and comply with their customers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 12:25:01 GMT -5
For the record, I agree that We Are Never Ever, is a pop song by a core country artist, however, the powers that make the chart are marketing it otherwise
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michellef
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Post by michellef on Oct 13, 2012 12:46:21 GMT -5
i find it funny how you still won't actually outright admit the flaw with the new chart. like i said... 10 people determining the genre of a song? who knows what biases or credibility these people have? that's a problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 13:08:47 GMT -5
What "flaws" do you want me to admit? It is not my chart. I did not put it together. It has entertainment value to me but not much more than that. I know enough about this to know that complaining, emails, protests and petitions will fall on deaf ears. They appreciate the fans but do not cater to them.
I actually agree with what they are trying to do. As long as they do it correctly. They should be measuring popularity of country songs as a whole, not just one segment of it.
Those hypothetical 10 people may be the ones in charge of how the song should be marketed
Radio PDs obviously help determine genre, Fans who buy the music help determine genre and people who make the most money off the song help determine genre
Taylor Swift is a recognized country artist. I am willing to be at least some country fans are snatching up all those downloads. That also is a factor
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peterca
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Post by peterca on Oct 13, 2012 13:12:49 GMT -5
The designation of the genre is a key issue here.
If "Red", the album, contains 13 pop songs and 3 country songs, then would it "qualify" as a Country album? Shouldn't it be categorized as a Pop album? Even BMR said that "Red" is much more leaning towards pop. Why should a Pop album dominate the Country album chart? Similarly, why should a Pop song, especially when there is a country version, dominate a Country chart?
Imagine if a versatile artist made an album consisting of 8 country, 4 gospel, 2 big band songs. And this album sells very well, say 20k per week for many weeks. Would this album be the #1 gospel album for all those weeks?
I think the declaration of the genre for an album and each single (when released) needs to be made by the artist/label.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 13:14:39 GMT -5
The designation of the genre is a key issue here. I think the declaration of the genre for an album and each single (when released) needs to be made by the artist/label. I think it is. It is not Billboard, they are just the ones publishing
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Janhova's Witness
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Post by Janhova's Witness on Oct 13, 2012 13:30:46 GMT -5
This is such a lazy change on Billboard's end. Any idiot can look at the Hot 100 and see the "most popular songs from each genre." The format-specific charts used a different methodology for a reason. The new charts, aside from providing a few sub-Hot 100 positions, are essentially useless.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 13:37:49 GMT -5
The designation of the genre is a key issue here. I think the declaration of the genre for an album and each single (when released) needs to be made by the artist/label. I think it is. It is not Billboard, they are just the ones publishing They said they're choosing the genres.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 13:39:05 GMT -5
I think it is. It is not Billboard, they are just the ones publishing They said they're choosing the genres. By themselves? Or with input from their core customers? Their customers are telling how to list it.
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michellef
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Post by michellef on Oct 13, 2012 13:40:34 GMT -5
They said they're choosing the genres. By themselves? Or with input from their core customers? they said absolutely nothing about getting input from their core customers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2012 13:42:12 GMT -5
By themselves? Or with input from their core customers? they said absolutely nothing about getting input from their core customers. When they make the "50 calls" a week or whatever it is that you keep quoting, who do you think they are talking to? Maybe those phone calls are to order a pizza while they unilaterally decide to mess with the country music industry. ?
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michellef
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Post by michellef on Oct 13, 2012 13:44:13 GMT -5
they said absolutely nothing about getting input from their core customers. When they make the "50 calls" a week or whatever it is that you keep quoting, who do you think they are talking to? i believe by "calls" they don't mean actual physical phone calls. i think they mean "decisions." so if you replace "calls" with "decisions" in the quote, it may make more sense. "Every week, Billboard makes dozens of calls about the various charts a song should be eligible for. The point is, we make these calls. We've been doing it for 50-plus years. We'll make a bunch more next week."
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Lozzy
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Post by Lozzy on Oct 13, 2012 13:45:12 GMT -5
they said absolutely nothing about getting input from their core customers. When they make the "50 calls" a week or whatever it is that you keep quoting, who do you think they are talking to? Papa John's? Someone will have to buy those copies of Red.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Oct 13, 2012 13:53:49 GMT -5
Ok. So the Hot 100 shows this. These new charts are an extension of the Hot 100 just sorted out and elongated to give more information than we normally have available. Other than the idea that these new charts will now be the "official" ones, why is that an issue? Because allowing crossover airplay into the charts' formulas is unfair and not representative of what the Urban/R&B community really listens to/favors.
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Oct 13, 2012 15:19:14 GMT -5
But I think that labels want to know what r&b tracks are going to make them the most overall money. And that is represented on the new R&B Hip Hop Songs chart. If they, or Radio PDs, or you want to know what is representative of what the Urban/R&B community really listens to / favors, they now have five specific radio charts to choose from: r&b / Hip-Hop airplay, Mainstream r&b, r&b songs airplay, Rhythmic Top 40 and Urban AC.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 13, 2012 15:51:58 GMT -5
Ok. So the Hot 100 shows this. These new charts are an extension of the Hot 100 just sorted out and elongated to give more information than we normally have available. Other than the idea that these new charts will now be the "official" ones, why is that an issue? Because allowing crossover airplay into the charts' formulas is unfair and not representative of what the Urban/R&B community really listens to/favors. Maybe that's not what they're trying to measure? They still have the airplay charts. THAT shows what those communities really listen to. What they favour? That one is a tough one because there's no way to single out only those people to determine what they like, buy and stream, because most people listen to more than one genre of music and most genres of music are listened to by more than one type of person. This chart is simply showing the most popular song of a particular genre by involving its play over ALL radio formats, downloads by ALL people who download and streams by ALL people who stream. It gets the bigger picture. The most popular R&B song of the week is this song by so-and-so because it was downloaded by more people, streamed by more people and played on more stations. In fact, it was SO big that it was played by non-R&B stations so it was heard by THAT many more people. I think the discussion that is going on about the genre of a song and whether it belongs on a particular chart is a side-discussion to the whole thing and in order to even get to that part, an understanding of the purpose of the chart is needed. Otherwise, the conversation gets messy. Just because a song that doesn't fit is included into a particular chart doesn't mean the method of that chart is flawed. It just means that one aspect of how that chart is done needed to be re-evaluated. As 2m said, and I do agree, "as long as they do it correctly." I think the main things people seem to have issue with are the inclusion of songs that don't belong and the fact that this new method is being used as the new "main" chart for these genres and it's a drastic change from what was used up until last week. Otherwise, nothing is being taken away. No charts are being discontinued and no information is being removed. The suggestion that the airplay of these charts be limited to the formats the songs are targeting, however, seems so redundant to me. It answers no questions and paints only part of a picture, especially since there's no way to determine intent when looking at digital and streaming aspects of music.
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Au$tin
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Post by Au$tin on Oct 13, 2012 16:45:52 GMT -5
If, for example, a rock song were to suddenly make the rounds on social media and networking sites without the help of radio, and suddenly it got a bunch of streaming and sales points, should it cease to chart because radio isn't on board (yet)? It's HIGHLY unlikely a song would become a huge seller and big on streaming with 0 airplay. Even if it got 0.001 AI from say alternative, and nothing from any other format and got 150k sales and 215k streaming, all of its sales and streaming would count towards the alternative chart. This would never happen. May I point out that this is only a hypothetical chart I would like to see. Not something that needs to be done. The fact Billboard changed them all from format charts to genre charts is not bothering me. It's the fact that they are dictating what constitutes each genre. For example, Taylor Swift's "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together" is not a country song. Yet it's #1 on country. It does, however, have a country remix. "Diamonds" is #1 on R&B. "Diamonds" is not R&B. Their decision on which songs are which genres are horrible.
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Myth X
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Post by Myth X on Oct 13, 2012 16:47:59 GMT -5
So "We Are Never Ever..." is the most popular COUNTRY SONG in America because Billboard tells me so just like "I Knew You Were Trouble." will be the most popular COUNTRY SONG next week because Tay Tay's previous history in the country charts. #DEAL
Scott Borchetta and Bill Verde stay winning! :)
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