Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 22:32:54 GMT -5
This just open the door to compile your own Billboard chart. Just take the airplay and digital components and combine them in the way you think it's more appropriate... and there you have it. A nice chart that you agree with I've wanted to do this for the longest but Billboard.com only lists the top 40 digital songs (with no sales numbers, just rankings) and I can't afford a billboard.biz account to get access to the other information. Not entirely sure what all is available, anyway...I don't think you can get specific numbers unless you pay Nielsen, so even with a .biz account the best you could do is create an inverse points system based on chart position (not that that is a bad methodology). I've been wondering why HDD hasn't gotten around to creating its own songs charts. There's enough of an interest there that I think it would make it worth their time. .biz gets you deeper versions of the free charts and more of them but still no numbers just rankings
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d.t.m
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Post by d.t.m on Oct 11, 2012 22:36:54 GMT -5
^Not going to work. As someone stated before, they care more about appeasing industry execs than the general public.
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Chelsea Press 2
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Post by Chelsea Press 2 on Oct 11, 2012 22:40:47 GMT -5
The only hope in changing anything is bombarding them with complaints. This is completely unfair to all the core artists in each genre who will no longer be fairly represented on their main genre chart(s). I sent an e-mail to the chart manager, I suggest others do as well. If they see the truly overwhelming displeasure of this change, hopefully they'll revert back to the old charts. I don't care if these charts are kept, but they should be named accordingly and should not be the official genre chart. An appropriate name for the new Country chart would be: "Hot Country Crossover Songs". Something to that extent per each genre, while the old charts remain the official source for genre-specific #1s. I cannot believe this is even a topic of discussion as this change makes absolutely no sense, and holds little logic. The inclusion of sales is a good idea, but the disproportional impact sub-genre airplay has on digital sales should be accounted for as well. They could keep BOTH the new and old charts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 22:40:52 GMT -5
Yeah don't waste your breath. Billboard is not here to entertain you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 22:57:58 GMT -5
The "old charts" still exist. It is called country airplay
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Oct 11, 2012 23:02:55 GMT -5
We all aware of that. It just the recognition these new charts will get now over the old charts. It's just a flawed method.
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syrus
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Post by syrus on Oct 11, 2012 23:20:59 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong but only two albums have gone platinum this year, right?
So these labels think they can continue to screw over fans and this will result in bigger sales for popular artists, right? They'll only continue to see declining record sales with these stunts!
The folks over at Billboard should be ashamed of themselves!
But oh well...
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on Oct 11, 2012 23:25:09 GMT -5
The "old charts" still exist. It is called country airplay Yes, but they're no longer the official charts that people will refer to. My point is that old chart should remain the main official chart, and this new formula just be a bonus.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 23:33:11 GMT -5
I for one like "official" charts that measure popularity of the population rather than what we are told to listen to by radio station program directors
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on Oct 11, 2012 23:37:33 GMT -5
Yeah don't waste your breath. Billboard is not here to entertain you. They do have an entrainment aspect through their magazine and website. If their devoted subscribers express displeasure, they'd be in the very least obligated to review the changes, no? They may care more about the execs, but the least we can do is try. We're all music fans, and I think this issue is one of the rare cases where we're ALL in agreement. If over displeasure and dissatisfaction is shown by so many of Billboard's chart followers, than maybe a difference can be made. I just hate to see something so precious go down so hard. A lot of the artists we "stan" for thrive on these charts. When we refer to success, often times that success is based on these charts, and that is no longer, because of this change. Carrie Underwood was on the verge of making history, she was going to score her 15th Billboard top 2 hit, and 13th #1. Now that won't happen with perhaps one of the best single releases of her career. I know there are many other artists in similar situations whose careers are going to be greatly affected by this unreasonable and unjust change. I'm repulsed by this... I've followed this chart since I began following Carrie's career seven years ago, and now it seems all the hard work devoted to Country radio means nothing, as it literally has only minuscule bearing on the official Country chart. The 12 #1s are only history now, and there's literally no hope of keeping such a hot and historical streak alive. It's just sad, simply as a music fan - this is really a huge blow to the entire industry.
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on Oct 11, 2012 23:40:36 GMT -5
I for one like "official" charts that measure popularity of the population rather than what we are told to listen to by radio station program directors So you like the fact that Taylor Swift currently holds the top two positions on the Country chart with two non-Country songs? Only one of which, by the way, is receiving Country airplay which amounts to only a position in the 30s. What is there to like about that?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 23:40:43 GMT -5
Billboard is making enough money through corporate ties that it doesn't really care or need to care about a relative handful of disgruntled fans... and how many of them are actually paying for Billboard subscriptions anyway?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 23:43:22 GMT -5
I for one like "official" charts that measure popularity of the population rather than what we are told to listen to by radio station program directors So you like the fact that Taylor Swift currently holds the top two positions on the Country chart with two non-Country songs? Only one of which, by the way, is receiving Country airplay which amounts to only a position in the 30s. What is there to like about that? That the tastes of the public often differ from the tastes of radio station program directors? This is one such example
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 23:47:16 GMT -5
Billboard is making enough money through corporate ties that it doesn't really care or need to care about a relative handful of disgruntled fans... and how many of them are actually paying for Billboard subscriptions anyway? I am, but I guess I am not disgruntled so I wouldn't count. Just renewed today in fact. 500 dollars for a 2 year subscription. ;) Beyond what most fans of these charts are willing to or care to pay. Likely the latter. I am willing to bet most don't care
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Lozzy
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Post by Lozzy on Oct 11, 2012 23:48:32 GMT -5
So you like the fact that Taylor Swift currently holds the top two positions on the Country chart with two non-Country songs? Only one of which, by the way, is receiving Country airplay which amounts to only a position in the 30s. What is there to like about that? That the tastes of the public often differ from the tastes of radio station program directors? This is one such example How about the fact that THEY'RE NOT COUNTRY SONGS.
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on Oct 11, 2012 23:48:48 GMT -5
So you like the fact that Taylor Swift currently holds the top two positions on the Country chart with two non-Country songs? Only one of which, by the way, is receiving Country airplay which amounts to only a position in the 30s. What is there to like about that? That the tastes of the public often differ from the tastes of radio station program directors? This is one such example Sure, but how can anyone justify mixing Pop radio airplay and Pop generated digital sales into a specific genre chart. It literally makes NO sense. Pop Airplay plus Pop generated Digital sales does not equal a Country Hit. How can you argue this any other way? You're charting overall popularity, yes, but within the genre of Country music Taylor's WANEGT was not a hit in terms of airplay, yet it's #1 in the genre - WITHOUT COUNTRY SUPPORT? Riddle me this, please.
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Oct 11, 2012 23:49:27 GMT -5
I for one like "official" charts that measure popularity of the population rather than what we are told to listen to by radio station program directors The popularity affects genres that do not experience great results with iTunes and other online music retail. So these radio stations are put in place to allow non mainstream artists to have a voice but that won't be an option with this new rule. For pop radio stations, I could see the argument for how influenced it is by radio station program directors/labels but that's not so case with other genres. Popularity is for pop not for R&B, country and etc. The term derived from there and not these other genres.
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WotUNeed
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Post by WotUNeed on Oct 11, 2012 23:50:44 GMT -5
I am quite amused, because, amidst a relative Pulse uproar... Hot Latin Songs, meanwhile, has been based solely on radio airplay since its launch in 1986. In its new incarnation, only predominantly Spanish-language titles will appear on the chart. Titles mostly sung in English, which often receive Latin airplay and appear on the radio-based chart, are no longer eligible for inclusion. Dual-language songs (those recorded independently in both Spanish and English) will have only their Spanish-language airplay, sales and estimated streaming factored into their Hot Latin Songs rankings (see story, page 13). ... this is the only thing I read that I found rather unfair. While all the other changes I can understand (since they all simply involve adding new charts and shifting names for existing charts, which in essence means no data or tracking will be lost), this is the only change which involves actively excluding songs for somewhat arbitrary reasons. Don't get me wrong; I understand the reasoning. Billboard is trying to avoid English-language songs dominating the Latin songs charts based on moderate airplay and strong digital sales. However, I think excluding English-language songs completely despite the fact that some of them cross over to Latin stations is just as much a disservice as over-representing would be and think Billboard needs to rethink this formula if they hope to keep the U.S.-based Latin charts accurate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 23:53:28 GMT -5
That the tastes of the public often differ from the tastes of radio station program directors? This is one such example Sure, but how can anyone justify mixing Pop radio airplay and Pop generated digital sales into a specific genre chart. It literally makes NO sense. Pop Airplay plus Pop generated Digital sales does not equal a Country Hit. How can you argue this any other way? You're charting overall popularity, yes, but within the genre of Country music Taylor's WANEGT was not a hit in terms of airplay, yet it's #1 in the genre - WITHOUT COUNTRY SUPPORT? Riddle me this, please. It has the support of country fans most likely. (Yes I acknowledge that the PD at the country radio station might not like the song) However, it seems likely that many fans of Taylor Swift also support country music
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 23:56:10 GMT -5
Wait, does this mean Katy and Rihanna will have an even easier time topping pop now due to Rhythmic and Hot Ac play?
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Lozzy
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Post by Lozzy on Oct 11, 2012 23:56:27 GMT -5
Willing to bet there is is overlap. At least some fans of Taylor Swift are fans of country music and they are the ones buying the song in bunches. But "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together" is still far more pop than country. It's a Max Martin production. It had a country remix. It's top 5 on pop with a huge bullet while it's in the 30's and freefalling from a peak of #13 on country, despite her superior history on the country format. There's just no sane, logical reason at all that it should be #1 on Hot Country Songs. And there's what Kyle said here: Sure, but how can anyone justify mixing Pop radio airplay and Pop generated digital sales into a specific genre chart. It literally makes NO sense.
Pop Airplay plus Pop generated Digital sales does not equal a Country Hit. How can you argue this any other way? You're charting overall popularity, yes, but within the genre of Country music Taylor's WANEGT was not a hit in terms of airplay, yet it's #1 in the genre - WITHOUT COUNTRY SUPPORT? Riddle me this, please.
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Lozzy
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Post by Lozzy on Oct 11, 2012 23:57:38 GMT -5
Wait, does this mean Katy and Rihanna will have an even easier time topping pop now due to Rhythmic and Hot Ac play? No, they haven't made any changes to the Pop Songs chart. Seems like they consider the Hot 100 to be their official pop genre chart, which is another ridiculous generalization.
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allow that
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Post by allow that on Oct 11, 2012 23:58:03 GMT -5
Less than impressed by that explanation. It's rather patronizing because he makes it seem as if it's a bunch of angry stans upset over their faves freefalling this particular week. With all due respect, I'm not interested in knowing that Brandy was a "nice person" when you met her irl. How is that relevant? None of those explanations address the fact that these charts are meant to capture data that is now misrepresented because the current Billboard staff apparently failed their Stat 101 courses where surely they would have learnt the core concept in any data survey: sampling frame. "Radio doesn't represent the voice of the people." Okay, so Urban radio doesn't represent the voice of Urban music fans... but Pop radio does?
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Post by strikeleo on Oct 12, 2012 0:01:31 GMT -5
I do have to say that I'm having a bit of fun with these chart changes. Reading the bitter thoughts of some fans because they think their artist is so deserving has been kind of entertaining. Sure, the methodology is flawed and needs some improving, which I'm sure will happen down the line, but I do feel that this is a step in the right direction. The success of a song can't be measured by airplay only, especially with how radio and payola work. I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that Carrie Underwood managed to get 12 number #1's all on her own, with no push from her label and no sort of shady negotiations going on. This is confirmed even more with the disparity between her recognition as a whole (album sales + single sales + awards) and the number of #1's she gets.
It's just a bit difficult, though, to add sales in the equation. I mean, Taylor has a pretty large fanbase and following, so when she releases someting, all of them buy it. How can you take the non-country fans out of the equation to make a more accurate chart? This is why, even if I criticized the way the chart works, I still see no way to sincerely measure the real success of a song going by genre limitation.
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on Oct 12, 2012 0:03:42 GMT -5
Willing to bet there is is overlap. At least some fans of Taylor Swift are fans of country music and they are the ones buying the song in bunches. You're awfully good at missing the point. WANEGT was literally plummeting on Country music radio - it peaked outside the top 10, and then literally dropped like a rock into the 30s. Meanwhile on Pop and Hot A/C this song is getting MASSIVE airplay. Thus its main audience is CLEARLY made up of predominately Pop and Hot A/C listeners. Sure, there are some Country fans purchasing, but not 200,000+ a week... I don't think a legitimate Country song has ever done that. Only Taylor, and possibly a select few other acts could, and those are the crossover artists that this change positively affects. The rest of the core artists who aren't as exposed to Pop audiences clearly don't sell as much. Therefore their digital and cross-genre airplay portions of the equation are low relative to someone like Taylor, who is played across most genres in high rotation yielding inevitably higher digital sales. Pop/Country/HAC Airplay > Country alone Pop/R&B/HAC Airplay > R&B alone Country and R&B songs, in this example, that aren't crossovers will lose out on the chance at #1, or even top 5 as long as people like Taylor, Rihanna, etc... dominate in the crossover component of the industry. Crossover success should be measured separately, but not completely combined with the genre-specific charts because doing so literally defeats the purpose of having genre charts!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2012 0:04:18 GMT -5
Call it what you will, the Taylor Swift songs are being sold on itunes as country songs. What radio plays and what country music fans buy are often different.
Fans of these charts do not have to like the new charts they can read the old ones. What is "official" or not "official" really does not matter. You can choose to follow whichever chart you like.
My opinion of these charts also do not matter. I am simply throwing my support towards them since they are here to stay.
I believe this format was positively tested within the industry, otherwise they would not have made the switch.
They have not consuted fans before on what charts they publish I don't think they are going to start any time soon
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2012 0:08:41 GMT -5
To be fair, Red hasn't gotten any Pop play to influence its sales.
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allow that
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Post by allow that on Oct 12, 2012 0:10:32 GMT -5
My 9 year old cousin purchased Taylor's song on iTunes in front of me a month back. We live in New Jersey. Guaranteed she's never even heard a "Country" song before (thank God *snickers*) but her purchase is now contributing to the snapshot of what all y'all in those square shaped states consider as your main chart... it just seems... WRONG!
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₫anny Jerz ♔
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Post by ₫anny Jerz ♔ on Oct 12, 2012 0:11:35 GMT -5
The only thing that really bothers me about the change is the fact that there is no clear-cut way of determining what should chart in which genre. It's all incredibly subjective, which sort of hurts the credibility of the chart. People won't take the R&B chart seriously with a song like "Diamonds" at the top when it really isn't at all representative of the genre; same goes for Taylor and Psy topping country and rap songs. It's all a bit bastardizing.
That said, I see what Billboard is going for here. There has been a polarizing split between pop and "deep genre cuts" which are more traditional. The issue is that those deep genre cuts also tend to be poor digital sellers, indicating perhaps less public demand. When you have stuff like "Bandz A Make Her Dance" shooting to #1 on airplay and at the lower reaches of digital charts, is it REALLY accurate to say that it's the #1 most popular R&B/Hip-Hop song overall in America? Not really. (idek wtf that is) I'm all for digital sales being accounted for. It's just how much they're accounted for and the genre-defining that is really questionable.
On an aside, I've been thinking about it for awhile - as far as the distinction between Pop and other genres being stronger than ever - and people are quick to blame Pop for being closed-off to other genres. Is that the case? Or has genre-specific music made a sharp turn away from the melodies, hooks, pop sensibilities that once drove them to crossover success? Take a look at the genre charts now, compare them to the crossover R&B/rock/country of previous years, and you will see how genre specific cuts have strayed from crossover sound to a more traditional sound. Pop "shunning" them isn't really out of spite or closed-mindedness; the core R&B, country, rock acts just simply aren't pandering to pop as much as they may have in the past, when they found crossover success.
Now if you're a fan of the traditional, core sounds of each genre, you will no doubt be disappointed by this. Don't be mistaken - labels will take note. They live for charts. And they will pander to get their core artists back to the top of the charts. Could we see a major shift over time to more crossover material? It's possible. Will people who love the current core sound hate it? Sure. I'd like a return to some solid crossover fare though at the very least and if that's what comes out of this, I won't be too devastated.
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Lozzy
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Post by Lozzy on Oct 12, 2012 0:13:34 GMT -5
Fans of these charts do not have to like the new charts they can read the old ones. What is "official" or not "official" really does not matter. You can choose to follow whichever chart you like. Let me direct you to a previous post of mine: The old R&B chart has just been tossed into a bin alongside Tropical Albums and MySpace Songs. That is the issue. You're awfully good at missing the point.
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