HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Oct 11, 2012 14:13:28 GMT -5
Oh, I understand that point. That was just another one I thought I'd bring into the mix. :)
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Oct 11, 2012 14:24:26 GMT -5
That makes no sense either. You can't just assume 30% of its sales are from country listeners. The only way including sales data in the genre charts makes sense is to include only sales data from stores that primarily sell music from one particular genre, which is impossible in the digital age. Billboard was obviously trying to figure out a way to re-incorporate a sales component into the R&B charts, but it's impossible. I also have no doubt they were under immense pressure from Clear Channel and the like to give the top pop artists a further dominance on Billboard's charts. I agree, but if they want to count sales, they NEED to account for the different proportions of sales yielded by each genre. If they can't measure that, then the change is pointless. Each genre chart with this modification reflects overall popularity across all genres. Genre specific charts should reflect popularity within a genre, not all genres. Otherwise, each genre chart is essentially a measurement of how well songs crossover and not their relative specific genre popularity. There really is no way to figure out specific sales anymore. And personally, I don't mind sales factoring in on some level. But because sales are hard to decipher, I don't think they should count a huge amount (Country Albums, as an example, is determined from overall sales and not "genre sales" so that precedent is there). And crossover play definitely shouldn't count toward genre charts.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Oct 11, 2012 14:29:29 GMT -5
Someone pointed out on another board that this isn't all that dissimilar to when Billboard added all genres to the Hot 100 airplay panel; prior to that, the Hot 100 primarily had been a pop-oriented chart (with some rhythmic, AC and modern rock thrown into the mix during the 90s); tracks that were pop smashes couldn't top the Hot 100 because they lacked crossover play at non-pop formats like urban radio. That made the Hot 100 a more inclusive representative of the most popular songs in the country rather than acting like pop radio was the only measure of popularity and people listening to Urban radio, Country radio, or Rock radio didn't count. This move takes charts that were meant to be representative of what's popular among a certain listening demographic and turned it into a ranking of the most popular songs in the country within a certain category, in which case, Billboard subjectively decides which songs and artists belong on those charts. No one who listens exclusively to Urban radio would tell you Rihanna's "Diamonds" is the most popular song out right now. The chart no longer measures the same thing, yet the purpose of the chart is still the same.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Oct 11, 2012 14:32:41 GMT -5
This move takes charts that were meant to be representative of what's popular among a certain listening demographic and turned it into a ranking of the most popular songs in the country within a certain category, in which case, Billboard subjectively decides which songs and artists belong on those charts. No one who listens exclusively to Urban radio would tell you Rihanna's "Diamonds" is the most popular song out right now. The chart no longer measures the same thing, yet the purpose of the chart is still the same. I told Silvio more or less the same things in my initial email and he seemed to dodge the questions. I also raised that point about how it's impossible to determine which sales come from that specific airplay. He didn't even give me a specific answer when I asked him why they decided to "reward crossover airplay" in a genre specific chart. I think they don't even have a clear idea of how this is going to work out. They need a reality check.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 14:41:16 GMT -5
This is a mess and a half. Such a fuck up but at least on the bright side Taylor should be able to easily get multiple country number 1's now lol. I'm not a fan of this change at all though. It's just not fair to core urban/country artists.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 14:47:52 GMT -5
The 60 position chart that was called 'country songs' last week still exists. It is now called 'country airplay'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 15:01:04 GMT -5
This move takes charts that were meant to be representative of what's popular among a certain listening demographic and turned it into a ranking of the most popular songs in the country within a certain category, in which case, Billboard subjectively decides which songs and artists belong on those charts. No one who listens exclusively to Urban radio would tell you Rihanna's "Diamonds" is the most popular song out right now. The chart no longer measures the same thing, yet the purpose of the chart is still the same. I told Silvio more or less the same things in my initial email and he seemed to dodge the questions. I also raised that point about how it's impossible to determine which sales come from that specific airplay. He didn't even give me a specific answer when I asked him why they decided to "reward crossover airplay" in a genre specific chart. I think they don't even have a clear idea of how this is going to work out. They need a reality check. I used to send Billboard editors letters years ago, and they always dodge criticisms. They're a business, and they know which questions to doge and how to answer questions in a way that makes them look good. If there was pressure from certain powers that be in the industry, they're not going to come out and tell you that your concerns are legitimate but their hands are tied.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 15:13:26 GMT -5
Chart changes have often been done to address industry needs, never has it been done to address fan needs
It has also been done to address credibility issues, such as declaring an album the "most popular" of the week when catalog albums sold more.
You guys may not be fans of the newly added charts but I believe the "Hot 100 method" is definitely a much better way to declare something "most popular". Simply put, the decision of "#1" is now more with the fans than the radio programmers, which is where it should be.
For the purists, all the old charts still exist (they have just been renamed)
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WolfSpear
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Post by WolfSpear on Oct 11, 2012 15:49:19 GMT -5
Its good and bad in the same way.
Rihanna is only getting her due because she is an R&B artist, albeit her songs aren't pure R&B like some of the older ones. Taylor Swift is barely a Country artist ... I mean, it's about time Billboard drops her from that tally. Maybe make a rule where you have to be #40 on the individual Airplay charts before the sales kicks in.
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Myth X
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Post by Myth X on Oct 11, 2012 15:59:35 GMT -5
Ugh. I can't believe it. Poor Brandy :(
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meuirmao
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Post by meuirmao on Oct 11, 2012 16:02:04 GMT -5
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Oct 11, 2012 16:04:04 GMT -5
11TH OCT 2012 | 4 NOTES I’ve been watching the feedback online regarding the Billboard chart policy changes that went into affect today. If you’re unaware of these changes, you can read this. An excerpt:
“Billboard unveils new methodology today for the long-standing Hot Country Songs, Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs and Hot Latin Songs charts. Each receive a major consumer-influenced face-lift, as digital download sales (tracked by Nielsen SoundScan) and streaming data (tracked by Nielsen BDS from such services as Spotify, Muve, Slacker, Rhapsody, Rdio and Xbox Music, among others) will now be factored into the 50-position rankings, along with existing radio airplay data monitored by Nielsen BDS. The makeovers will enable these charts to match the methodology applied to Billboard’s signature all-genre songs ranking, the Billboard Hot 100.”
While we discussed these changes at length with the music industry, and the feedback from that quarter has been supportive, there is some confusion - and yes, occasional foaming-at-the-mouth outrage - from fan camps who have seen some of their favorite stars drop down the charts. I hear you, fans, and I’m really gratified that our charts are so very meaningful to you. I wanted to take a few minutes to engage on your points, which seem to fall into a couple of baskets. If you’d like we could schedule a Google Hangout to discuss this further. I really love the dialogue.
Basket 1: I really like Brandy, and she just dropped from no. 3 to no. 16 on your Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Chart
Obviously, this isn’t just about Brandy. And if it is, for you, let me assure you, I really like Brandy too! I had a chance to speak with her at the Billboard Music Awards after party in May, and I assure you, I walked away thinking there couldn’t possibly be a more lovely person.
But here’s the way I think about this: the former R&B/Hip-Hop Chart was effectively 100 percent based on radio. And basing the primary chart on radio play only feels out of touch with what’s actually happening with music. The fans have no direct voice with radio. It’s a push format - someone else decides what you’re going to listen to and with what frequency. Are those of you upset about this rule change suggesting that what fans are streaming on Spotify or buying at iTunes shouldn’t count? Fans have the power today - more than they have ever had in the history of the recorded music business - and these chart changes honor that reality, above all else.
Basket 2: Now the country chart will only ever be topped by Tay Tay.
Alternate Basket 2: Now the R&B chart will only ever be topped by Ri Ri.
I have empathy for fans of deeper genre cuts that will likely slide down the charts a bit, to make room for the juggernaut digital track sales of more mainstream stars. This week, for example, Taylor Swift’s “Red” debut’s at no. 2 on the Country Songs chart, based largely on the strength of her digital downloads.
Truth? A hit doesn’t just look like one thing anymore. Mumford and Sons are getting some nice Triple A and Alt Rock radio play, but they are setting streaming records on Spotify. That’s a hit. Psy - and before him, Cee-lo - launched a song that was viewed more than 100 million times on YouTube before radio ever touched it. That’s a hit. And if an established country act like Taylor Swift releases a song like “Red” that sounds like a country song, and that becomes the no. 2 selling digital track in the U.S., well that song is a hit, and yes, by our standards, a country hit, also. Radio remains an important part of the equation, but it’s no longer the only part. A song isn’t a genre hit ONLY if that genre’s radio stations decide or are are incentivized to play it.
3. But I love Carrie Underwood so much that it makes me hate anything that’s good for Taylor Swift, even if it’s only good for Taylor Swift in the short term and, at some point, will almost certainly be good for Carrie Underwood also.
I suggest a deep breath and some therapy. I like chocolate (vegan) ice cream. It’s never once made me launch a campaign against Vanilla. Why can’t we all just get along?
4. Psy as the top rap track?! You are a racist who is trying to gentrify the rap charts.
I’ll spare you my rap cred, and say this: every week, Billboard makes dozens of calls about the various charts a song should be eligible for. Take dance: what makes a track a dance track? Is it the BPM? is it “electronic sounds”? Is it “I don’t know, man, this just sounds like a dance track”? What is a song is a ballad but then has an electro chorus? The point is, we make these calls. We’ve been doing it for 50+ years. We’ll make a bunch more next week. We take it very seriously. We work at codifying the process, so that anyone who assumes the job of a genre chart manager can inherit guidelines for making these decisions.
As for Psy, if you Google “Psy” and “rapper” you get millions of hits. No less an authority than Wikipedia identifies him this way: “en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psy_(rapper)”. So we’re not going out on a limb here. In fact, I’d ask this: how is it anything but racist to exclude Psy from the rap chart?
Always happy to engage further. Let me know in the comments if you’d like to take part in a Google Hangout on the topic. If there’s demand, we’ll get one scheduled. Thanks for reading
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michellef
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Post by michellef on Oct 11, 2012 16:07:20 GMT -5
honestly, that article didn't even really discuss the deeper flaws....pretty much just stated the obvious, "it's not just radio that determines a hittt"
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WolfSpear
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Post by WolfSpear on Oct 11, 2012 16:08:12 GMT -5
Bill is dead right on everything said...
Though, I'm not sure why he chose to disect "dance" when the disk jockey's still make that call with their playlists.
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Myth X
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Post by Myth X on Oct 11, 2012 16:31:41 GMT -5
But Bill why the hell are you including OVERALL airplay in a fucking genre chart?
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Chelsea Press 2
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Post by Chelsea Press 2 on Oct 11, 2012 16:36:48 GMT -5
His comment about the "industry" being supportive about these radical changes is meaningless. Making a general statement about the "industry" like that doesn't back up their argument for why the changes should happen. Did they talk to everybody? They could talk to 2 or 3 people and say the talked to the "industry". Keep in mind how slow the industry was to act about beginning legal digital downloads. And Billboard/Soundscan was even slower about tracking the sales and incorporating those sales into the charts. A significant chunk of the industry could be totally indifferent to this and don't care. They care more about their profits and the bottom line moreso than how a magazine's charts ranks their artists' singles, albums, etc. Only when their profits and bonuses are threatened, that's when they wake up and realize, "wow, what just happened here?" Changes to the chart methodologies do need to happen based on the times and happenings but there has to be a slow transition into the new way instead of multiple charts all at once. Similarly, the changes that they make also have to make sense.
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Oct 11, 2012 16:49:24 GMT -5
Also important to recall history: It is pretty obvious that methodology changes to the Billboard charts actually CHANGE the music business and culture. Just ask anyone who followed pop music pre and post the 1991 Soundscan / BDS revolution. It completely effed up the nineties!
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Chelsea Press 2
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Post by Chelsea Press 2 on Oct 11, 2012 16:58:51 GMT -5
Also important to recall history: It is pretty obvious that methodology changes to the Billboard charts actually CHANGE the music business and culture. Just ask anyone who followed pop music pre and post the 1991 Soundscan / BDS revolution. It completely effed up the nineties! That period during which labels stopped issuing commercial singles to boost album sales when the Hot 100 chart was entirely sales-based was really brutal. It did help album sales for the most part, but then massive hit singles without a physical commercial release like "Don't Speak", "Iris", "Torn", "Love Fool", "To Love You More", "Head Over Feet", etc. were unable to chart. It's strange to look back on the charts from that period and not see those songs except for on their respective airplay charts. Then they allowed singles to chart without a sales component as long as they were top 75 on Hot 100 airplay. After that, there were a few instances where labels stopped issuing CD and cassette singles, but released a 12" vinyl single which was harder for the general public to obtain, but it's a physical release. I think Aaliyah's "Try Again" was the first one to go to number one based on airplay exclusively under that new formula without a CD/cassette single.
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hitseeker.
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Post by hitseeker. on Oct 11, 2012 17:03:47 GMT -5
I can understand the rationale behind the change and he raises some good points. I just wish this transition, the way it happened, the actual changes, hadn't been so messy and poorly executed. Only time will tell how charts and acts are going to be affected.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Oct 11, 2012 17:05:04 GMT -5
Not sure if this has been discussed. Think about this:
Albums on genre album charts are simply ranked by how they appear on the Billboard 200. (R&B used to be core R&B stores, but they wouldn't amount to much these days).
So, in that sense, genre tracks charts are following suit.
Just more food for thought.
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Arabella21
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Post by Arabella21 on Oct 11, 2012 17:38:17 GMT -5
Not sure if this has been discussed. Think about this: Albums on genre album charts are simply ranked by how they appear on the Billboard 200. (R&B used to be core R&B stores, but they wouldn't amount to much these days). So, in that sense, genre tracks charts are following suit. Just more food for thought. With country in particular, though, most of the time crossover airplay only happens when artists do pop remixes. So, make your song less "country" and get rewarded with a better position for it on the country charts? That doesn't seem right. But if a "genre" song does get airplay outside of its home format, without removing the elements that define it as a "genre" song in the first place, I don't have a problem with rewarding that so much. Though, Diamonds and Gangnam Style topping the R&B and Rap charts, respectively, just seems strange...at least GS is definitely a rap song.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 18:07:24 GMT -5
This is a mess and a half. Such a f**k up but at least on the bright side Taylor should be able to easily get multiple country number 1's now lol. I'm not a fan of this change at all though. It's just not fair to core urban/country artists. Yeah, multiple Country #1s with POP releases. Because she's labeled as Country, everything she releases will be #1 for weeks on months. Watch I Knew You Were Trouble debut at #1 next week. Is that even remotely Country? Hell no. A pop song with a dubstep beat in the chorus ≠ Country, and yet the Pop airplay will completely rule that statement out because of ... reasons(?) And Rihanna is now #1 with Diamonds on the R&B chart? What?
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Lozzy
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Post by Lozzy on Oct 11, 2012 18:12:29 GMT -5
This is a mess and a half. Such a f**k up but at least on the bright side Taylor should be able to easily get multiple country number 1's now lol. I'm not a fan of this change at all though. It's just not fair to core urban/country artists. Yeah, multiple Country #1s with POP releases. Because she's labeled as Country, everything she releases will be #1 for weeks on months. Watch I Knew You Were Trouble debut at #1 next week. Is that even remotely Country? Hell no. A pop song with a dubstep beat in the chorus ≠ Country, and yet the Pop airplay will completely rule that statement out because of ... reasons(?) And Rihanna is now #1 with Diamonds on the R&B chart? What? For what it's worth, Bill Werde implied on Twitter that "I Knew You Were Trouble" won't chart on country and Silvio whateverio said to Mario that Usher's "Numb" won't chart on R&B. It seems like they do have some classification system, it's just ridiculously flawed.
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fridayteenage
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Post by fridayteenage on Oct 11, 2012 18:26:22 GMT -5
I agree with everyone who's saying that, for example, only country airplay should count on Country Songs, not pop airplay.
And songs like Red or Diamonds shouldn't chart on Country Songs or R&B Songs when both have little to no airplay on those formats.
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Spidey
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Post by Spidey on Oct 11, 2012 18:26:37 GMT -5
I do not like the changes at all.
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d.t.m
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Post by d.t.m on Oct 11, 2012 19:28:28 GMT -5
Lots of grumblings about something like this happening for a while, really. Basically the highest ranking genre song on the Hot 100 will be #1 on the genre charts.
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Rodze
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Post by Rodze on Oct 11, 2012 19:40:49 GMT -5
That made the Hot 100 a more inclusive representative of the most popular songs in the country rather than acting like pop radio was the only measure of popularity and people listening to Urban radio, Country radio, or Rock radio didn't count. This move takes charts that were meant to be representative of what's popular among a certain listening demographic and turned it into a ranking of the most popular songs in the country within a certain category, in which case, Billboard subjectively decides which songs and artists belong on those charts. No one who listens exclusively to Urban radio would tell you Rihanna's "Diamonds" is the most popular song out right now. The chart no longer measures the same thing, yet the purpose of the chart is still the same. But the purpose of the charts are not the same, Billboard said as much. The new genre charts are measures of how popular songs are in the country. Period. You're simply filtering the Hot 100 to see how songs from certain genres are popular (as if you filtered the iTunes top 100 only to Country songs).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 20:16:46 GMT -5
Also important to recall history: It is pretty obvious that methodology changes to the Billboard charts actually CHANGE the music business and culture. Just ask anyone who followed pop music pre and post the 1991 Soundscan / BDS revolution. It completely effed up the nineties! I think the introduction of digital sales in the Hot 100 resulted in R&B largely disappearing from pop radio playlists within a few years of the change. I have no doubt this will have a far-reaching effect on radio and the music industry as a whole.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 21:24:54 GMT -5
This just open the door to compile your own Billboard chart. Just take the airplay and digital components and combine them in the way you think it's more appropriate... and there you have it. A nice chart that you agree with I've wanted to do this for the longest but Billboard.com only lists the top 40 digital songs (with no sales numbers, just rankings) and I can't afford a billboard.biz account to get access to the other information. Not entirely sure what all is available, anyway...I don't think you can get specific numbers unless you pay Nielsen, so even with a .biz account the best you could do is create an inverse points system based on chart position (not that that is a bad methodology). I've been wondering why HDD hasn't gotten around to creating its own songs charts. There's enough of an interest there that I think it would make it worth their time.
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on Oct 11, 2012 22:19:30 GMT -5
The only hope in changing anything is bombarding them with complaints. This is completely unfair to all the core artists in each genre who will no longer be fairly represented on their main genre chart(s). I sent an e-mail to the chart manager, I suggest others do as well. If they see the truly overwhelming displeasure of this change, hopefully they'll revert back to the old charts. I don't care if these charts are kept, but they should be named accordingly and should not be the official genre chart.
An appropriate name for the new Country chart would be: "Hot Country Crossover Songs". Something to that extent per each genre, while the old charts remain the official source for genre-specific #1s. I cannot believe this is even a topic of discussion as this change makes absolutely no sense, and holds little logic. The inclusion of sales is a good idea, but the disproportional impact sub-genre airplay has on digital sales should be accounted for as well.
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