Legenderry
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Post by Legenderry on Feb 13, 2017 9:23:44 GMT -5
Was Yeezy right about the Grammy's not valuing art?( Lemonade) Of course he's right, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Beyonce not winning an AOTY trophy. There are plenty of great artists and albums who never even made it into the category.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 13, 2017 9:24:10 GMT -5
You can't blame Beyoncé (or any artist) for their fans. I don't think she demands to be "honoured at all times." She's become invested in what she does to the point where much of it goes over people's heads. I've seen so much criticism over how Lemonade was released with a visual album and the whole nine yards. It's so ridiculous when artists are criticized for going above and beyond the norms with their work. I wasn't blaming Beyonce the person, I was saying how a lot of people feel as a result of her overzealous fans. Whether or not it's Beyonce's fault, it affects how people view her.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 13, 2017 9:26:52 GMT -5
Was Yeezy right about the Grammy's not valuing art?( Lemonade) Of course he's right, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Beyonce not winning an AOTY trophy. "Art" is subjective as well. But also, how is what Adele does not "art?" How is Sturgill Simpson's album (for my money the best album of the bunch) not "art?" Lemonade earned a ton of nominations and two wins. You can't really argue that the Grammys didn't value the project. Did they not reward it as much as some wanted? Obviously not. But to say the Grammys don't value "art" because Lemonade didn't win AOTY is very extra.
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Oprah
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Post by Oprah on Feb 13, 2017 9:43:10 GMT -5
If Beyonce really wanted that AOTY grammy she would've reconciled with Matthew sooner so that he'd work his voodoo corruption for her again.
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Wavey✨️
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Post by Wavey✨️ on Feb 13, 2017 10:02:51 GMT -5
I liked both albums, but you can't deny Lemomade and the versatility of the music.
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Oprah
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Post by Oprah on Feb 13, 2017 10:08:16 GMT -5
I think it's a little disingenuous to act as if these were just two good albums and either could've won. Lemonade was a reflection of black womanhood, released at a moment in time when the country is grappling with race, and it resonated with people. Passing it up for an excellent, but run of the mill, Adele album seems a bit wrong.
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shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Feb 13, 2017 10:17:30 GMT -5
it's systematic problem in fundamental. hiphop/urban music can't win in general because it's polarizing genre that many people don't understand or appreciate. so in a way, it's racial thing. because afterall majority of voters are white people who most likely won't appreciate black music well and prefer watered down black music, or the best? watered down black music by white artist. that's the reality.
sales does matter in reality, but that's not what Grammy stand for. "The GRAMMYs are the only peer-presented award to honor artistic achievement, technical proficiency and overall excellence in the recording industry, without regard to album sales or chart position" from grammy.org
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 13, 2017 10:25:43 GMT -5
I think it's a little disingenuous to act as if these were just two good albums and either could've won. Lemonade was a reflection of black womanhood, released at a moment in time when the country is grappling with race, and it resonated with people. Passing it up for an excellent, but run of the mill, Adele album seems a bit wrong. I wouldn't say the country is grappling with race; I would say a certain section of the country is grappling with it. I would say a large part of the country doesn't care about it, which is why Trump got elected. It's sad, but also true I think. By the same token, a lot of voters don't give a sh*t if Lemonade made a statement. Again, these are musicians rewarding music. it's systematic problem in fundamental. hiphop/urban music can't win in general because it's polarizing genre that many people don't understand or appreciate. so in a way, it's racial thing. because afterall majority of voters are white people who most likely won't appreciate black music well and prefer watered down black music, or the best? watered down black music by white artist. that's the reality. sales does matter in reality, but that's not what Grammy stand for. "The GRAMMYs are the only peer-presented award to honor artistic achievement, technical proficiency and overall excellence in the recording industry, without regard to album sales or chart position" from grammy.org I think you are right there; in general, people like what they identify with. If most of the voters were black, then we'd probably get complaints about most of the winners being black. The reality is most of the voters probably don't identify with Lemonade. But, yes, there is also a systemic issue there, but it's one that exists in our country. Sadly, a lot of people don't care about something unless it affects them personally. You can say this about a lot of genres, though. Country as a genre is very white, yet country music rarely wins Album, Record, or Song. Latin music does even worse than hip-hop and R&B.
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on Feb 13, 2017 10:32:54 GMT -5
Let's also keep in mind that AOTY is technically about the music, and the visual part had a separate nomination (that was by far the more egregious loss). Taken on its own, the Lemonade album didn't make much of a political statement at all (only "Freedom" and "Formation" do). This 1000x. I was shocked and blown away that Lemonade lost in this category since the visuals were hyped up to the moon and back. A huge part of the album were the visuals, and for it to lose that category almost certainly meant a loss in album of the year.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 13, 2017 10:36:48 GMT -5
Sales and popularity shouldn't matter in how the awards are given. If anyone votes because X is more popular or sold more, they shouldn't be allowed to vote. The only way popularity should play in the process at all is the unavoidable genuinely not knowing who someone is in a list of 300 titles when picking the nominees. As an aside, the part when James told people to tweet about the show and they scrolled through tweets was funny as hell and should be getting more attention, especially the "tweet" from Trump. lol. James as host brought so much life to the Grammys and he needs to come back next year. edit: This part. Video in here lmao. Kills me! www.nme.com/news/tv/watch-james-corden-mock-trumps-tweets-grammys-1974490
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Feb 13, 2017 10:42:18 GMT -5
Now I think the rumors about Lemonade are definitely true. While I did not expect her to win any of General Field, I do think she was deserving of one. She is striving for one of them again and I do think that has become off putting. I also agree with the execution of her work is quite better than the output overall, just my opinion. Her music is no different than most urban acts, imo. Yet, her way of delivering is one of the best; however, it is not enough for voters to give her top award unfortunately.
Beyonce would have won this award if she had the sales and critics success, I think the committee just did not want to give it to her for her critics success.
You cannot deny Adele's success with 25 and her critics success was decent enough to justify her win too. Despite all of Beyonce's over the topness, she still have not come on top because someone is still in the back doing something just incredible without the "in your face" promo. Adele was that individual, this time around.
I wonder how she would do if she would do a regular release without any the visuals all together and see how she fared there again. I mean I think the visuals have been her shining moment, but again, it has taken away from her music overall and the committee is responding yet not to the music, per say, unfortunately.
I believe she will keep trying and trying until she gets that win though.
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Feb 13, 2017 10:44:47 GMT -5
This 1000x. I was shocked and blown away that Lemonade lost in this category since the visuals were hyped up to the moon and back. A huge part of the album were the visuals, and for it to lose that category almost certainly meant a loss in album of the year. Right, that seen to be her downfall right now. The focus is so heavily on the visuals that the music is just there. Again, "Formation" got it's hype in the beginning before everything else came. While she is selling and her team may have to refocus on how the music can still be received to the committee and keep the visual impact there too. It is tricky.
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BDGeek
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Post by BDGeek on Feb 13, 2017 11:09:31 GMT -5
In seriousness, I get the feeling that a lot of the voters felt like Beyonce "should" win, but then they voted for someone else because they really didn't like the way Bey-or-Adele became this foregone conclusion. There's an article on Billboard where an anonymous voter says he figured Beyonce will win, but he chose to vote for Views. Well if a bunch of people think like that then no, Bey won't win. Drake don't want your damn pity vote! But imagine all the people who decided to throw a vote to Drake, or to Justin, or to Sturgill, simply because they figured Bey would win but didn't actually care enough to make sure she did and didn't have sense enough to try to organize a voter bloc that might actually garner their chosen pick a surprise win. I agree it's about Beyonce seeming a foregone conclusion, but I think it's about it in a different way. I think a lot of people are tired of having Beyonce (and her extraness and especially the extraness of her fans) shoved down their throats. It's like that SNL skit from a few years ago. That type of thing puts people off. Is Beyonce objectively great? Yes. But so are other artists, and they are more unassuming in their greatness. Beyonce (and again, her fans) demands to be honored at all times. Other people seem to go about their business and just create their art. A lot of people prefer it that way. Again, not right or wrong, just saying. Thank. You.
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Oprah
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Post by Oprah on Feb 13, 2017 11:43:05 GMT -5
I think it's a little disingenuous to act as if these were just two good albums and either could've won. Lemonade was a reflection of black womanhood, released at a moment in time when the country is grappling with race, and it resonated with people. Passing it up for an excellent, but run of the mill, Adele album seems a bit wrong. I wouldn't say the country is grappling with race; I would say a certain section of the country is grappling with it. I would say a large part of the country doesn't care about it, which is why Trump got elected. It's sad, but also true I think. By the same token, a lot of voters don't give a sh*t if Lemonade made a statement. Again, these are musicians rewarding music. Oh, come on. Trump won precisely because a large part of the country cares a whole fucking lot about race.
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Post by Fat Ass Kelly Price on Feb 13, 2017 11:45:50 GMT -5
^^ I just don't see it. Beyoncé barely bothers to promote her s**t or even have radio singles, but she's shoving herself down people's throats?
Did Taylor Swift not just win two aoty Grammys? She's constantly promoting herself, her music, and her greatness of being a strong woman who does everything musically by herself and shall never allow a man to take credit for her success. The shoving seemed to work for her.
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Kishi KCM
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Post by Kishi KCM on Feb 13, 2017 12:13:14 GMT -5
I'm surprised that Rihanna was 0 out of 8. That hurt. At least she and the flask had a moment.
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Linnethia Monique
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Post by Linnethia Monique on Feb 13, 2017 12:19:37 GMT -5
^^ I just don't see it. Beyoncé barely bothers to promote her s**t or even have radio singles, but she's shoving herself down people's throats? Did Taylor Swift not just win two aoty Grammys? She's constantly promoting herself, her music, and her greatness of being a strong woman who does everything musically by herself and shall never allow a man to take credit for her success. The shoving seemed to work for her. I believe the "extra-ness" of when she does promote does seem to be a turn off for a lot of people. When she does a 16 minute set at the MTV VMAs, 10 minute set at the BET Awards, a calculated performance of Daddy Lessons with The Dixie Chicks, and a 12 minute set at the Grammys it wouldn't be hard to see how that would resonate with a certain crowd. Instead of letting just the music speak she kept pushing visual after visual. I ,for one, enjoyed every last second of what she did last year and at last night's show.
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allow that
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Post by allow that on Feb 13, 2017 12:20:56 GMT -5
Beyonce is handling her upset with more class than Solange is lol.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 13, 2017 12:22:26 GMT -5
Visuals are a part of music. If it was truly about the music, there wouldn't be televised award shows, music videos, all-out arena concert tours, fashion endorsements, "who are you wearing?", etc, etc, etc. Don't bitch about an artist having a visual element as part of an album saying it should be about the music and then complain when someone else's performance is boring because there wasn't enough "stage presence" or whatever.
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Linnethia Monique
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Post by Linnethia Monique on Feb 13, 2017 12:28:36 GMT -5
Visuals are a part of music. If it was truly about the music, there wouldn't be televised award shows, music videos, all-out arena concert tours, fashion endorsements, "who are you wearing?", etc, etc, etc. Don't bitch about an artist having a visual element as part of an album saying it should be about the music and then complain when someone else's performance is boring because there wasn't enough "stage presence" or whatever. It's still one of those things that is confusing to me. On Twitter you could see a clear divide of people either loving or hating what she did. There really doesn't seem to be a gray area for Beyoncé anymore like there was before.
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WILL
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Post by WILL on Feb 13, 2017 12:30:19 GMT -5
I'm surprised that Rihanna was 0 out of 8. That hurt. At least she and the flask had a moment. She had INSANE competition.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 13, 2017 12:35:42 GMT -5
Visuals are a part of music. If it was truly about the music, there wouldn't be televised award shows, music videos, all-out arena concert tours, fashion endorsements, "who are you wearing?", etc, etc, etc. Don't bitch about an artist having a visual element as part of an album saying it should be about the music and then complain when someone else's performance is boring because there wasn't enough "stage presence" or whatever. It's still one of those things that is confusing to me. On Twitter you could see a clear divide of people either loving or hating what she did. There really doesn't seem to be a gray area for Beyoncé anymore like there was before. Definitely an oversaturation, not so much of Beyonce herself, but of the ongoing hype of everything Beyonce. I didn't particularly care for last night's performance but I keep seeing it being hailed as the best thing since her performance last year. Probably Bey-is-Queen fatigue at this point.
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bat1990
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Post by bat1990 on Feb 13, 2017 12:46:48 GMT -5
Adele could always pull a Frank Ocean and not submit anything in the future if the Grammy wins make her uncomfortable...
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Mic Technique
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Post by Mic Technique on Feb 13, 2017 12:57:27 GMT -5
The meaning people attach to Lemonade ("a reflection of black womanhood") can be attributed to any R&B album by a black woman released in the last century. A milestone it is not; expand on black female archetypes it does not; challenge the R&B tradition Beyoncé does not.
That Adele or anyone made a point to acknowledge Beyoncé does little to prove she was robbed of awards. It's the Macklemore rule: cover your ass or face anti-racist backlash and lose money. More than that, it's become a social obligation to recognize Beyoncé. I've spoken at length about this before but doing so un/consciously reinforces her dominion that disallows other black women in pop music to achieve any substantial level of success. Nobody wins when Beyoncé wins.
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Linnethia Monique
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Post by Linnethia Monique on Feb 13, 2017 13:05:14 GMT -5
Adele could always pull a Frank Ocean and not submit anything in the future if the Grammy wins make her uncomfortable... The thing is that Frank Ocean is independent so it was 100% his own choice not to submit. Adele's label could still submit against her wishes.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 13, 2017 13:10:39 GMT -5
I wouldn't say the country is grappling with race; I would say a certain section of the country is grappling with it. I would say a large part of the country doesn't care about it, which is why Trump got elected. It's sad, but also true I think. By the same token, a lot of voters don't give a sh*t if Lemonade made a statement. Again, these are musicians rewarding music. Oh, come on. Trump won precisely because a large part of the country cares a whole f**king lot about race. Well, it's about how you frame it. In one sense you can say they care about race, but in another sense you can say they are tired of hearing about race and voted as a reaction to it. It's the same with Lemonade; some people love it for the statement it made, and other people are like "get over it" or something similar (they care about not caring about it). Again, I am not saying any of it is right or wrong, I'm just making an observation. I think a lot of people take for granted that everyone cares about social justice. If I've learned anything from the latest election cycle, it's that I care a lot more about equality than a lot of the country does. Don't bitch about an artist having a visual element as part of an album Who bitched about it?
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 13, 2017 13:17:03 GMT -5
The meaning people attach to Lemonade ("a reflection of black womanhood") can be attributed to any R&B album by a black woman released in the last century. A milestone it is not; expand on black female archetypes it does not; challenge the R&B tradition Beyoncé does not. That Adele or anyone made a point to acknowledge Beyoncé does little to prove she was robbed of awards. It's the Macklemore rule: cover your ass or face anti-racist backlash and lose money. More than that, it's become a social obligation to recognize Beyoncé. I've spoken at length about this before but doing so un/consciously reinforces her dominion that disallows other black women in pop music to achieve any substantial level of success. Nobody wins when Beyoncé wins. Post of 2017 so far tbh.
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kanimal
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Post by kanimal on Feb 13, 2017 13:31:14 GMT -5
Up slightly in the ratings this year: 7.8 in A18-49 and 26.1 million viewers vs. 7.7 and 25.0 million last year (aired on a Monday).
The 2015 show, which aired on a Sunday (but, unlike the 2016 and 2017 shows, was tape-delayed on the west coast), did an 8.3 and 24.8 million.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 13:42:04 GMT -5
I see a lot of people circle-jerking about Lemonade, but man is it weird to see so many people discount 25 in the face of Beyoncé. Let's talk about that album. 25 shattered records in a climate that actively inhibited sales; impacted globally, cross-culturally and generationally; and I'll be damned if she didn't turn the industry on its ass for that masterclass in showcasing raw, god-given talent. While I recognize this is an American award show, that level of impact shouldn't be casually swept under the rug. For me, it was just as deserving as Lemonade was. Neither are particularly original, both do very different things, and for as consequential (or inconsequential) as the Grammys are Adele taking it isn't unwelcome or all that surprising. That Adele or anyone made a point to acknowledge Beyoncé does little to prove she was robbed of awards. It's the Macklemore rule: cover your ass or face anti-racist backlash and lose money. More than that, it's become a social obligation to recognize Beyoncé. I agree with your first point, but I don't think Adele felt forced into it for fear of being dubbed a racist. Hilariously, she actually ends up winning out more than Beyoncé for speaking about it. The whole breaking her Grammy thing furthers the "anti-diva" narrative that made Adele such a darling in the first place.
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Oprah
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Post by Oprah on Feb 13, 2017 13:42:18 GMT -5
Oh, come on. Trump won precisely because a large part of the country cares a whole f**king lot about race. Well, it's about how you frame it. In one sense you can say they care about race, but in another sense you can say they are tired of hearing about race and voted as a reaction to it. It's the same with Lemonade; some people love it for the statement it made, and other people are like "get over it" or something similar (they care about not caring about it). Again, I am not saying any of it is right or wrong, I'm just making an observation. I think a lot of people take for granted that everyone cares about social justice. If I've learned anything from the latest election cycle, it's that I care a lot more about equality than a lot of the country does. That is, again, precisely the point. People who revile political correctness and things like BLM are pretty heavily invested in race. It's not about taking for granted that people don't care about social justice, it's about realizing that people are fervently against it.
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