jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 13, 2017 14:11:35 GMT -5
Well, it's about how you frame it. In one sense you can say they care about race, but in another sense you can say they are tired of hearing about race and voted as a reaction to it. It's the same with Lemonade; some people love it for the statement it made, and other people are like "get over it" or something similar (they care about not caring about it). Again, I am not saying any of it is right or wrong, I'm just making an observation. I think a lot of people take for granted that everyone cares about social justice. If I've learned anything from the latest election cycle, it's that I care a lot more about equality than a lot of the country does. That is, again, precisely the point. People who revile political correctness and things like BLM are pretty heavily invested in race. It's not about taking for granted that people don't care about social justice, it's about realizing that people are fervently against it. From your perspective, yes, I think they would frame it different. That is my point. People are seeing things they way they see them, not as others see them. Anyway I'll also note that Beyonce lost her Rap/Sung nomination this year, and she wasn't even nominated for R&B Performance or R&B Song. My point in mentioning those things is that you can't really blame the losses this year on "old white men" since she clearly didn't even have major love from her home categories/constituency.
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Mic Technique
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Post by Mic Technique on Feb 13, 2017 14:14:36 GMT -5
I agree with your first point, but I don't think Adele felt forced into it for fear of being dubbed a racist. Hilariously, she actually ends up winning out more than Beyoncé for speaking about it. The whole breaking her Grammy thing furthers the "anti-diva" narrative that made Adele such a darling in the first place. Right. The Jennifer Lawrence of the music industry. That is, again, precisely the point. People who revile political correctness and things like BLM are pretty heavily invested in race. It's not about taking for granted that people don't care about social justice, it's about realizing that people are fervently against it. The majoritarian culture was content with the race-blind standard, for better or worse. It is often argued grassroots efforts to break the detente and the mainstreaming of race cognizance in America have a lot to do with #WhyTrumpWon. It's not because voters cared about race too much and social justice not enough but because they were fatigued or made uneasy by it. We would all do better to acknowledge that the multi-ethnic liberal democracy is a very fragile thing.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 13, 2017 14:23:27 GMT -5
I don't think it's all a race issue. Race didn't stop Chance The Rapper from winning over two white country females and a white hitmaking duo in Best New Artist.
If Lemonade produced one or two big hits, she may have won AOTY over Adele. "Formation" was no "Hey Ya!" or "Doo Wop (That Thing)."
Lemonade most certainly deserved it more than 25, but that loss had way more going against it than race.
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Enyasurvivor
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Post by Enyasurvivor on Feb 13, 2017 15:34:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 15:35:29 GMT -5
Too lazy to quote all the things I want to respond to.
I feel some kind of way about any non-black woman definitively stating whether or not Lemonade actually 'spoke' for us. I admit that this possibly shouldn't bother me as much as it does - I related to A Seat At the Table 10x more than I did Lemonade, I will never relate to Lemonade - but I also know so many women who related to Lemonade, and who relate to Beyonce in general. Lemonade wasn't a warped fairytale made out of thin air. Lemonade is both my grandmothers; it's my aunt who's now raising an outside child; it is every black woman who has been told (and believes) her greatest accomplishment is being a black man's wife and mother of his children, and then wondering why no one appreciates the heart and soul she puts in every second to be the best wife and mother she can be. It may or may not be Beyonce's own story, but it's definitely Tina's. I watched a classmate literally breathe like a weight had been lifted off her shoulders as she listened to it for the first time. She's a whole decade younger than Beyonce and has no kids yet, but she's already lived much of that story. Lemonade was a simultaneous cry and light to other black women who needed to know that we can at least confide to each other, even if the rest of the world remains determined to misunderstand our burden or even completely dismiss it as trivial and put-upon. And for an album with such a tailored 'audience,' it is astoundingly multigenerational. So this argument - either that Beyonce exploited a certain cause for her own gain, or didn't actually have anything to say about the cause at all - isn't the argument to make against her if you really want to convince anyone that it's not a big deal she didn't win. If anything, such dismissal just reinforces the mystique of the album and it brings out windbags like myself in rebuttal - I didn't even realize this paragraph was necessary to say until now.
I didn't root for Lemonade to take AOTY b/c of my own attachment to it, I rooted for it to win b/c it's the only album in that category to me that even attempted to symbolize something on a greater level than the artist's personal experience, and it would have been a general win for black womanhood. I just want our existence to be collectively validated sometimes and I know I'm not alone in feeling that way. It's basic af, but it's also not.
But then all of that blather out of the way, you are still left with effing Beyonce. She's so damn problematic that it's not even about her album anymore.
This year is simply another microcosm of a systemic flaw in the Grammy voting system, and if it were anyone else we could more easily dissect it as such. But Beyonce has a) always had a polarizing personality and music; b) was an A-list, larger than life diva before Adele even released her first album; Adele's own stanning reinforces Bey's status; and c) has a crap ton of Grammys already, including one SOTY (so we can't quite say she gets snubbed in the majors, though the 1/11 record is paltry), and matched/set the record for most wins in a night for a woman twice. It's hard to view it as a pattern in which we should feel sorry for Bey, because Bey's own towering shadow obscures how this possibly affects her. It's like when Tidal had that launch and it was 10 billion dollars standing on the stage unironically kvetching about giving back to the artist. No one on that stage was hurting for anything; likewise, Beyonce would hardly have gained any validation from this AOTY the same way that Kendrick might have if he'd won last year. Bey can't truly speak for the little people even as she gifts us with an album that speaks to the legion of fans who look just like her.
And it would be one thing if it were just people fatigued with the Adele/Bey choice and then kind of checking ou,t but when we go so far as to say "yo, people are just tired of Beyonce" it's obviously personal; once it becomes personal it stops being about the voting pattern. Bey was almost completely snubbed out of her own genre so in retrospect we probably should have figured something was amiss. People just didn't want Bey to win, and that's got (mostly) nothing to do with her race or chosen niche.
But it's still a really big systemic problem, and last night Bey fell victim to it.
And then there's Taylor, who possesses every negative attribute that people love to assign to Beyonce X's 1000. When a Taylor era is underfoot she is constantly shoving her brand down people's throats (even more so than Bey who actually does the exact opposite and won't effing promote); she has a massive ego and polarizing personality; she appointed herself patron saint of feminism even though nobody asked for her opinion; 1989 was up against an equal-or-better album from a far more likable artist. Somehow, at the peak of all of that obnoxiousness, she managed to win AOTY. Even at the top of the fame and money pyramid, the double standards are still there. If you loathe both Taylor and Bey you're absolved, but the Grammys are annoyingly not consistent in that regard.
So you have to either decide to point out the problem, and begrudgingly be team Bey for a while since she's the latest representative of it; or you have to tacitly admit that the Grammys' genre/race issues just aren't as important as your possibly petty ass feelings regarding the Qing and her quietly oppressive demand to be constantly revered. I live and bathe in petty ass feelings on a weekly basis - and it is "just" an awards show - so I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for choosing the latter, lol. I'm just saying, we have to spot it for what it is and make peace with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 15:52:39 GMT -5
Not that this is truly relevant in the grand scheme of things but I realize I forgot to mention that one grandmother went upside her husband's head with a cast iron skillet one day, and the other once shot at my grandfather and purposely missed ("I didn't want to kill him that day, I just wanted to let him know I COULD"). "Oh, my daddy said shoot..." lol. I am really not exaggerating when I say that Lemonade is a multigenerational tale, like it's almost scary how on point it can be for certain moments. Maybe this anecdote would have been better suited for the Lemonade thread itself but whatever, I'm dropping it here.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 13, 2017 16:18:16 GMT -5
I didn't root for Lemonade to take AOTY b/c of my own attachment to it, I rooted for it to win b/c it's the only album in that category to me that even attempted to symbolize something on a greater level than the artist's personal experience, Does Sturgill Simpson's album not do that as well? And then there's Taylor, who possesses every negative attribute that people love to assign to Beyonce X's 1000. When a Taylor era is underfoot she is constantly shoving her brand down people's throats (even more so than Bey who actually does the exact opposite and won't effing promote); she has a massive ego and polarizing personality; she appointed herself patron saint of feminism even though nobody asked for her opinion; 1989 was up against an equal-or-better album from a far more likable artist. Somehow, at the peak of all of that obnoxiousness, she managed to win AOTY. Even at the top of the fame and money pyramid, the double standards are still there. If you loathe both Taylor and Bey you're absolved, but the Grammys are annoyingly not consistent in that regard. Right or wrong, I think Taylor Swift is seen more as a singular artist with a vision than Beyonce. I also think that is - and Mariah Carey has talked about this before because people don't seem to regard her as a writer/artist - because Taylor Swift plays instruments. Singer/songwriters who play instruments always seem to get more respect as artists (see Alicia Keys). I definitely think the Taylor/Beyonce parallel you make is valid, and I am sure race has something to do with their various receptions, but I think it's more indirect. In general NARAS hasn't had an issue celebrating black artists - see Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Alicia Keys, and even Beyonce.
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Michael1973
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Post by Michael1973 on Feb 13, 2017 16:30:04 GMT -5
There was a brief moment of absurdity during the Grammys that I'm betting nobody but me even noticed. Every time a presenter took the stage, a snippet of one of their songs was played. When Paris Jackson was introduced, they played "The Girl Is Mine." Not only is that considered one of her father's goofiest songs, but more notably the part they played was from Paul McCartney's verse.
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Evergreen
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Post by Evergreen on Feb 13, 2017 16:36:08 GMT -5
The meaning people attach to Lemonade ("a reflection of black womanhood") can be attributed to any R&B album by a black woman released in the last century. A milestone it is not; expand on black female archetypes it does not; challenge the R&B tradition Beyoncé does not. That Adele or anyone made a point to acknowledge Beyoncé does little to prove she was robbed of awards. It's the Macklemore rule: cover your ass or face anti-racist backlash and lose money. More than that, it's become a social obligation to recognize Beyoncé. I've spoken at length about this before but doing so un/consciously reinforces her dominion that disallows other black women in pop music to achieve any substantial level of success. Nobody wins when Beyoncé wins. Alicia Keys and Nicki Minaj have proven this to be untrue. Not to mention Rihanna, who became a bonafide megastar right along side of Beyoncé. I'm not a Beyoncé fan, but to say she's dimmed other black woman's star is ludicrous.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 16:48:56 GMT -5
I didn't root for Lemonade to take AOTY b/c of my own attachment to it, I rooted for it to win b/c it's the only album in that category to me that even attempted to symbolize something on a greater level than the artist's personal experience, Does Sturgill Simpson's album not do that as well? For me, not really. I don't mean that comment to knock down the other nominees, I just think Lemonade was exceptionally ambitious in its attempt to tell a story for and/or to a body of people as a whole. Kendrick's TPAB was also that ambitious (and arguably more successful at said attempt, but that's neither here nor there). Yeah, with Bey it's hard to be as cautious but usually I try to be careful with my wording because I have said before that I think the Grammys has a bigger problem with genre bias than race bias, it just disproportionately affects black people since most black artists tend to release music in two of the genres that get snubbed. The black artists that have won major awards this century have all been music that you would expect old white guys to be into (Ray Charles, Herb Alpert) or very mainstream/crossover music (Alicia, even Outkast was a huge, mass appealing blockbuster not like most hip-hop albums), and that probably holds true for past decades as well. I think the year Lauryn Hill won AOTY it was an all-female crowd and in retrospect she was the safest and most predictable of the bunch to laud, ironically enough. (Side bar - Lauryn's is also the one album I can think of that spoke to/for black women the way Lemonade aspired to; Lauryn obviously was much more successful in making her message accessible and palatable for all.) With all that in mind it's clear that anyone of any race can win - but only if you're playing the right kind of tune.
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Feb 13, 2017 17:01:23 GMT -5
Does Sturgill Simpson's album not do that as well? For me, not really. I don't mean that comment to knock down the other nominees, I just think Lemonade was exceptionally ambitious in its attempt to tell a story for and/or to a body of people as a whole. Kendrick's TPAB was also that ambitious (and arguably more successful at said attempt, but that's neither here nor there). Yeah, with Bey it's hard to be as cautious but usually I try to be careful with my wording because I have said before that I think the Grammys has a bigger problem with genre bias than race bias, it just disproportionately affects black people since most black artists tend to release music in two of the genres that get snubbed. The black artists that have won major awards this century have all been music that you would expect old white guys to be into (Ray Charles, Herb Alpert) or very mainstream/crossover music (Alicia, even Outkast was a huge, mass appealing blockbuster not like most hip-hop albums), and that probably holds true for past decades as well. I think the year Lauryn Hill won AOTY it was an all-female crowd and in retrospect she was the safest and most predictable of the bunch to laud, ironically enough. (Side bar - Lauryn's is also the one album I can think of that spoke to/for black women the way Lemonade aspired to; Lauryn obviously was much more successful in making her message accessible and palatable for all.) With all that in mind it's clear that anyone of any race can win - but only if you're playing the right kind of tune. Granted - Lauryn had LOADS of critical praise (and commercial success) that year but I think if the Academy were voting the way they do now, Sheryl Crow or Shania Twain would have won (with Lauryn, Garbage, & Madonna being the more diverse, eclectic choices of the bunch). See - Steely Dan's win 2 years later in 2001. I would love for a more diverse voting block in BOTH the Grammy committee and the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame in future years (and the Oscars, let's be real).
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 13, 2017 17:10:27 GMT -5
Well, this isn't completely true: "What is odd is that the Academy restricts voters from voting in categories they have no expertise in, yet they allow them to blindly vote between genres in the general field." The Academy doesn't restrict them. They advise voters to vote in fields they have expertise in. There are plenty of voters most likely voting in fields they know little about. But I don't think that issue was evident this year. Solange and Maxwell beating out Rihanna (the big pop star) pretty much confirms that.
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Linnethia Monique
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Post by Linnethia Monique on Feb 13, 2017 17:22:10 GMT -5
I just realized that Ryan Tedder, Max Martin, Shellback, and Greg Kurstin have all won back-to-back Grammys by producing on both 25 and 1989.
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Oprah
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Post by Oprah on Feb 13, 2017 17:53:27 GMT -5
The majoritarian culture was content with the race-blind standard, for better or worse. It is often argued grassroots efforts to break the detente and the mainstreaming of race cognizance in America have a lot to do with #WhyTrumpWon. It's not because voters cared about race too much and social justice not enough but because they were fatigued or made uneasy by it. We would all do better to acknowledge that the multi-ethnic liberal democracy is a very fragile thing. I agree 100%. My point is that the reaction to BLM and everything else that's happened over the past few years is not so much apathy as it is antipathy; people feel threatened by the fact that minorities are growing as a percentage of the population and are increasingly vocal about the status quo.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 13, 2017 20:06:44 GMT -5
For me, not really. I don't mean that comment to knock down the other nominees, I just think Lemonade was exceptionally ambitious in its attempt to tell a story for and/or to a body of people as a whole. Kendrick's TPAB was also that ambitious (and arguably more successful at said attempt, but that's neither here nor there). Yeah, with Bey it's hard to be as cautious but usually I try to be careful with my wording because I have said before that I think the Grammys has a bigger problem with genre bias than race bias, it just disproportionately affects black people since most black artists tend to release music in two of the genres that get snubbed. The black artists that have won major awards this century have all been music that you would expect old white guys to be into (Ray Charles, Herb Alpert) or very mainstream/crossover music (Alicia, even Outkast was a huge, mass appealing blockbuster not like most hip-hop albums), and that probably holds true for past decades as well. I think the year Lauryn Hill won AOTY it was an all-female crowd and in retrospect she was the safest and most predictable of the bunch to laud, ironically enough. (Side bar - Lauryn's is also the one album I can think of that spoke to/for black women the way Lemonade aspired to; Lauryn obviously was much more successful in making her message accessible and palatable for all.) With all that in mind it's clear that anyone of any race can win - but only if you're playing the right kind of tune. Granted - Lauryn had LOADS of critical praise (and commercial success) that year but I think if the Academy were voting the way they do now, Sheryl Crow or Shania Twain would have won (with Lauryn, Garbage, & Madonna being the more diverse, eclectic choices of the bunch). See - Steely Dan's win 2 years later in 2001. Maybe, maybe not. The Lauryn Hill win was considered a bold move after rewarding albums by Celine Dion, Tony Bennett and Natalie Cole. The Grammys haven't change that much since the '90s.
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Khia
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Post by Khia on Feb 13, 2017 20:44:14 GMT -5
That Adele or anyone made a point to acknowledge Beyoncé does little to prove she was robbed of awards. It's the Macklemore rule: cover your ass or face anti-racist backlash and lose money. More than that, it's become a social obligation to recognize Beyoncé. ...or maybe Adele just actually loves Beyoncé? Adele wasn't "obligated" to do anything. Adele has shown time and time again that she's not a typical pop star. She can barely be bothered to shoot music videos. I'm not sure why you felt the need to get inside her head and explain her actions.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 13, 2017 21:00:14 GMT -5
Billboard have a very odd vendetta against Keith and Carrie's performance.
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cjay
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Post by cjay on Feb 13, 2017 22:14:12 GMT -5
That is, again, precisely the point. People who revile political correctness and things like BLM are pretty heavily invested in race. It's not about taking for granted that people don't care about social justice, it's about realizing that people are fervently against it. From your perspective, yes, I think they would frame it different. That is my point. People are seeing things they way they see them, not as others see them. Anyway I'll also note that Beyonce lost her Rap/Sung nomination this year, and she wasn't even nominated for R&B Performance or R&B Song. My point in mentioning those things is that you can't really blame the losses this year on "old white men" since she clearly didn't even have major love from her home categories/constituency. And I'm really curious to know why she did not get more nominations in the R&B categories--especially for Sorry. Another thing I found odd during the lemonade era is that none of her songs went #1 on Urban. That's so strange given that they praised her work on lemonade.
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Luckie Starchild
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Post by Luckie Starchild on Feb 13, 2017 22:53:27 GMT -5
The black artists that have won major awards this century have all been music that you would expect old white guys to be into (Ray Charles, Herb Alpert) or very mainstream/crossover music (Alicia, even Outkast was a huge, mass appealing blockbuster not like most hip-hop albums), and that probably holds true for past decades as well. Herb Alpert is white, just fyi...
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 13, 2017 23:15:37 GMT -5
Does Sturgill Simpson's album not do that as well? For me, not really. I don't mean that comment to knock down the other nominees, I just think Lemonade was exceptionally ambitious in its attempt to tell a story for and/or to a body of people as a whole. Kendrick's TPAB was also that ambitious (and arguably more successful at said attempt, but that's neither here nor there). In terms of the album itself, Lemonade is Beyonce expressing her feelings to her cheating man (a singular angle). With "Freedom" and "Formation" - and more so the visual component - she brings in the wider cultural aspect, but on the whole the album is about a woman who has been cheated on. In terms of Sturgill's album, it's ostensibly him speaking to his child (so singular there) in the context of a sailor who is setting out to sea and leaves a letter to his son. While there are individual songs, the album more so flows as one song/letter. Beyond that, though, the songs have a political bent and speak to what is going on in the world. The album starts more generally about having love for all and finding your way in the world (there is even a reference to Buddha). Then by the end, with "Call to Arms," he's telling his song not to join the military or trust the media. Musically Simpson's album is also very political. Simpson has been very vocal in his disappointment of the current country music industry. His album defies any real genre classification; it's country in spots, but also has elements of prog-rock and even utilizes the Dap Kings who played for Sharon Jones and Amy Winehouse. I find Simpson's album to be a real parallel to Beyonce's album in a lot of ways, with her project being more daring because of the visual element, but his work having more musical heft because of the extended metaphor in the concept. Just my two cents.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 23:49:28 GMT -5
The black artists that have won major awards this century have all been music that you would expect old white guys to be into (Ray Charles, Herb Alpert) or very mainstream/crossover music (Alicia, even Outkast was a huge, mass appealing blockbuster not like most hip-hop albums), and that probably holds true for past decades as well. Herb Alpert is white, just fyi... fack wrong one! I was trying to say Herbie Hancock, my b. What a weird brain fart to have...I've caught myself making weird mistakes like that a lot lately. and if you hadn't said anything I'm not sure I would have noticed and corrected this one at all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 23:54:39 GMT -5
For me, not really. I don't mean that comment to knock down the other nominees, I just think Lemonade was exceptionally ambitious in its attempt to tell a story for and/or to a body of people as a whole. Kendrick's TPAB was also that ambitious (and arguably more successful at said attempt, but that's neither here nor there). In terms of the album itself, Lemonade is Beyonce expressing her feelings to her cheating man (a singular angle). With "Freedom" and "Formation" - and more so the visual component - she brings in the wider cultural aspect, but on the whole the album is about a woman who has been cheated on. In terms of Sturgill's album, it's ostensibly him speaking to his child (so singular there) in the context of a sailor who is setting out to sea and leaves a letter to his son. While there are individual songs, the album more so flows as one song/letter. Beyond that, though, the songs have a political bent and speak to what is going on in the world. The album starts more generally about having love for all and finding your way in the world (there is even a reference to Buddha). Then by the end, with "Call to Arms," he's telling his song not to join the military or trust the media. Musically Simpson's album is also very political. Simpson has been very vocal in his disappointment of the current country music industry. His album defies any real genre classification; it's country in spots, but also has elements of prog-rock and even utilizes the Dap Kings who played for Sharon Jones and Amy Winehouse. I find Simpson's album to be a real parallel to Beyonce's album in a lot of ways, with her project being more daring because of the visual element, but his work having more musical heft because of the extended metaphor in the concept. Just my two cents. That's fair enough! I appreciate this actually, it gave me a different way to view Sturgill's album. Before now, I had mostly viewed it as an album written for his son.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 0:35:47 GMT -5
I find Simpson's album to be a real parallel to Beyonce's album in a lot of ways, with her project being more daring because of the visual element, but his work having more musical heft because of the extended metaphor in the concept. You make an interesting point here about the visual aspect of Beyoncé's album, and that's something to consider as well. I've spoken about this elsewhere, but coming from a place of not having ever actually seen the movie (and judging it purely on the music as a result), there's good work here but nothing particularly outstanding. If the visuals are so married to the music that one can't exist without the other, then that's a problem when it comes to recognition (and in general for me, but that's neither here nor there). It's not the responsibility of Grammy voters to consider additional elements of the project beyond the album itself.
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Active Aggressive
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Post by Active Aggressive on Feb 14, 2017 0:39:39 GMT -5
I honestly thought Beyoncé had AOTY, especially after that crazy Illuminati-baiting performance but...I shoulda known better. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Entertaining show, for sure. I loved seeing Paris Jackson on stage...such a poised and beautiful young woman. Also, The Weeknd should only perform with Daft Punk. They bring out the best in him. Also, not sure what that Moonshine Disco song that Carrie and Keith trotted out but...yeah. Also, Lady Gaga is a ROCK STAR. I love how she took it back to her dive bar roots with Lady Starlight. Why can Adele not just sing on key? Adele sounded ROUGH during that opening. I don't think she has fully recovered from her vocal issues/surgery she had but...good for her for sweeping. Also, pissed off at her for making FastLove so damn BORING with that arrangement. Struggles all around, tbh. Never heard a lick of Fantastic Negrito's music For a split second there, I thought you were talking about Chance or some other Black artist LOLOLOLOL. That junk... Honestly for a Katy Perry performance, this was actually really good. I agree! Having low to negative expectations, she did a really good job. Not a hard song to sing by any stretch of the imagination, but I was more engaged by her performance than for Beyoncé's and I even think she sounded better. Still in shock. Andra Day looks like she could be RiRis mom For a SPLIT second, I thought it WAS RiRi and I was like wait, wot. Poor Solange...she probably thought they were booing her. lol ...like I did, after seeing her absolute tone-deaf performance on SNL, where even her BAND sucked. The black artists that have won major awards this century have all been music that you would expect old white guys to be into (Ray Charles, Herb Alpert) Herb Alpert is an Eastern European Jew, js. Too late. This is what happens when I take almost a full day between when I start a post and when I finish it, LOL.
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Feb 14, 2017 0:45:11 GMT -5
I find Simpson's album to be a real parallel to Beyonce's album in a lot of ways, with her project being more daring because of the visual element, but his work having more musical heft because of the extended metaphor in the concept. You make an interesting point here about the visual aspect of Beyoncé's album, and that's something to consider as well. I've spoken about this elsewhere, but coming from a place of not having ever actually seen the movie (and judging it purely on the music as a result), there's good work here but nothing particularly outstanding. If the visuals are so married to the music that one can't exist without the other, then that's a problem when it comes to recognition (and in general for me, but that's neither here nor there). It's not the responsibility of Grammy voters to consider additional elements of the project beyond the album itself. I definitely agree with you. As I mention before, I wondered how well she may fared with the committee if she tries another traditional release. Keep the focus on the music only because her visuals do seen to heights her draw (which is still an excellent marketing aspect for her) yet it does not excite the committee to reward her in the General field. I could understand, based on the music because nothing is quite remarkable in her release yet her execution is remarkable. Again, when people talk about her release, it is the whole draw (visual and music), which is cool, but does it suggest that she should be rewarded on those merits? I mean, personally, her critical acclaim has been so great due to both together because before she was not getting these out of this world acknowledgement. Once again, great marketing on her team.
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🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾
Diamond Member
Banned
I will beach both of you off at the same time!
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 69,123
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Post by 🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾 on Feb 14, 2017 1:37:15 GMT -5
Bee Gees tribute with...Demi Lovato?! Bye I don't like how they shoehorn her into every single awards show telecast to perform either covers of some classic songs or "Confident." :sip2: I really wish she would hire a stylist who actually knows how to dress people and not mannequins at Tacky R Us. And she really needs to learn how to buy hair that doesn't look like Vanna White's yarn line.
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shayonce
2x Platinum Member
Joined: October 2008
Posts: 2,198
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Post by shayonce on Feb 14, 2017 2:01:58 GMT -5
You make an interesting point here about the visual aspect of Beyoncé's album, and that's something to consider as well. I've spoken about this elsewhere, but coming from a place of not having ever actually seen the movie (and judging it purely on the music as a result), there's good work here but nothing particularly outstanding. If the visuals are so married to the music that one can't exist without the other, then that's a problem when it comes to recognition (and in general for me, but that's neither here nor there). It's not the responsibility of Grammy voters to consider additional elements of the project beyond the album itself. I definitely agree with you. As I mention before, I wondered how well she may fared with the committee if she tries another traditional release. Keep the focus on the music only because her visuals do seen to heights her draw (which is still an excellent marketing aspect for her) yet it does not excite the committee to reward her in the General field. I could understand, based on the music because nothing is quite remarkable in her release yet her execution is remarkable. Again, when people talk about her release, it is the whole draw (visual and music), which is cool, but does it suggest that she should be rewarded on those merits? I mean, personally, her critical acclaim has been so great due to both together because before she was not getting these out of this world acknowledgement. Once again, great marketing on her team. as far as grammy goes, it doesn't matter. both of her debut album or sasha fierce album got 5 awards with 1 general, multiple general nominations. what she needs to get general and many other awards are 'big chart hit single', not the traditional release or audio only.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 2:35:03 GMT -5
Oh hell this whole conversation surrounding Beyonce is why I ignore her while also liking lots of her music. Talk of BLM and Donald Trump Supporters and speaking for social justice and black empowering moments. Hell this is just another chick who makes or steals really cool music, acts dramatic and shakes her hips well and makes hot ratchet songs and adds incredible visuals and has great hype machine. She don't speak for black women, she isn't a feminist and her lyrics aren't all that moving or powerful . She isn't Coretta King or Oprah and she ain't all that. Just another Hollywood fake bitch. Nothing wrong with that but get your heads out of her ass.
Stop with the overreaching and hyperbole she ain't nothing more than a a cool act in a line of even better acts.
The whole Beyonce bigger than life brainwashing and handwringing is too much.
The bitch is fun. That's it. Sips on lemonade and neck snaps to formation. Love her record.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 2:38:43 GMT -5
Let's talk about my beautiful and drunk and fun Rihanna getting snubbed.
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14887fan
Diamond Member
Joined: November 2013
Posts: 11,256
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Post by 14887fan on Feb 14, 2017 4:34:53 GMT -5
Billboard have a very odd vendetta against Keith and Carrie's performance. Billboard has a very odd vendetta against being super credible.
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