jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 14, 2017 21:37:37 GMT -5
I do feel Prince and George Michael's tributes should have had more cushion to them. I honestly felt Adele or Bruno Mars should have not performed twice, but instead there should have been more artists in those tributes. The Bee Gees got a good mix of artists (I take it Saturday Night Live was included). I find it ridiculous how much music both guys have (especially Prince) over the years and we get a song or two. That is absurd to me. Yeah, in hindsight, the Saturday Night Fever tribute was actually more than that for Prince or George Michael. At the same time, it's actually been nearly a year since Prince died, and there have been multiple tributes as it is, so I can see not doing a lot more than they did. As for George Michael, he had a few years where he was huge, but on the whole he's a few rungs below Michael, Prince, etc in stature (in the U.S. at any rate) so 1 song seems fitting to me. We'll see. Bruno's latest album hasn't performed as well as his last one thus far. The Weeknd is doing fine, though I don't feel a lot of love/hype for his project overall. There is definitely still room for someone to make something with real heft and take things over. We also get back to the asinine timeline as if "Starboy" is what Weeknd pushes, it would be a full year from now that it wins its potential Grammys despite it currently falling down the charts.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 14, 2017 21:39:29 GMT -5
There are a lot more 'genres' than that. I don't mind the current format of 1 per genre as much as I wish they'd throw a few more genres in the mix. Why not a Latin award, Short Form Video, and Folk, for instance? They can obviously change it up each year to highlight different genres. They have done that before, it's just usually 1 'random' award. I don't guess they did that this year, though. But.....why are there Latin categories when there is a Latin Grammy? I clearly do not understand that. Is there a different breakdown from the Grammy and Latin Grammy? I find it odd, too, and it's what causes confusion as to whether 'Latin Grammys' count toward an artist's Grammys total.
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on Feb 14, 2017 22:10:15 GMT -5
Why do people keep saying that the Grammys didn't for what's 'relevant'? Adele is a relevant/current artist, and her music is everywhere. If we're talking about "cultural," her music is definitely embedded in pop culture. This isn't some old fogey winning all of this awards just to play catch up. It's one of the biggest pop stars in the world now. "Hello" was everywhere. 25 broke decade-old records. Adele's tour was massive. There's nothing the Grammys can do to change the voting patterns. How about more urban artists start rallying for those artists during voting period by actually voting instead of complaining after the results are revealed? That's the only way things will change. Chance The Rapper is very 'relevant' and it was a very bold move to make him Best New Artist with no proper release and that release being a Hip Hop record through and through. But just because Beyoncé got snubbed... This is wildly off base. Nobody is saying Adele is irrelevant, and if anyone is saying that, then they're incredibly dense. What's trying to be said is that the subject matter of Lemonade is much more relevant to what's going on in the world. Combine its prevalence with its wildly huge critical acclaim and its fantastic commercial success, and it had every right and reason to win Beyoncé AOTY. 25 is a beautiful album; you won't ever find me knocking that, as I stanned it so hard when it first came out, and I still to this day adore it with all of my heart. But, it could've been released in 5 years from now, and it still would've probably won AOTY. It's not as timeless of an album as 21 is, but it had that ability to be able to win whenever it'd get released because A) it contained strong stories that were generic enough to hook onto people at any given moment in time, and B) it's Adele. Lemonade was released at the right time and for very empowering reasons. It was successful, its visual elements were amazing, and the tour that supported the album was absolutely massive. When you collect all of that and take into account the current political climate that the US, and the world, is in right now, you'll get the reason as to why Lemonade deserved this win. (This does not mean that 25's success is discredited, because it isn't. 25 deserved AOTY, but Lemonade did, too. Plenty of people are distraught over justifying Beyoncé's loss to Adele's win, because it'd be ignorant to deny Adele's deservingness, too. But nobody is calling Adele irrelevant, and nobody is saying that Beyoncé's snub is in part because of Adele being "some old fogey.") As for your comment about "urban artists starting to rally for those artist during voting period by actually voting instead of complaining after the results are revealed," you've got multiple issues with that. 1) That is not the way things change. White men make up the largest portion of the Academy's voters. The way things change is by getting people on board with recognizing what's made the largest and most meaningful impact in music of the current year. Snubbing Beyoncé from all 3 of her General Field nominations was a clear indicator that they went with voting "traditionally," as opposed to voting "with the times," as Adele put it in her backstage interview at the GRAMMYs after she won AOTY (where she also confirmed that she herself even voted for Lemonade). Aka, the Academy's voters decided to vote white, because that's what traditional tends to mean. 2) How do you know if they are or aren't voting? And even if they are, could it even make a difference? Again, white people run the show with these award show academies. Look no further than #OscarsSoWhite from the last couple of years, or at the fact that in the last 20 years, only 4 black artists have won Album of the Year -- Herbie Hancock (for a jazz album), Outkast (for a hip hop album), Lauryn Hill (for an R&B/hip hop album), and Ray Charles, whose honor came posthumously. It's not solely their responsibility to make sure R&B/hip hop is heard; it's the responsibility of everyone to make sure they're making educated, well-thought-out, and relevant decisions. It shouldn't be the responsibility of people of color to have to carry the burden of constantly bending over backwards for their voices to be heard. Others will automatically be heard, and likely awarded, simply because they've got the privilege of being "traditional." Again, as Adele herself said, let's "go with the times." 3) Why was it such a bold move to name Chance the Rapper as this year's Best New Artist? He's been wildly successful, and has done it all as an independent artist on SoundCloud. He's playing huge festivals and just announced a nationwide arena tour. But it was a bold move? No. It was a deserving move. Rewarding Beyoncé's Lemonade with Album of the Year would've probably come off to all of us as bold or daring, but that's because the Academy would've been awarding a solo woman of color for her culturally relevant and socially impactful work of art with their highest honor; that's not something we've seen often at the GRAMMYs. But it wouldn't have been ~bold~ or ~daring~ at all; it would've been deserving.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 22:27:07 GMT -5
Oh yeah, to answer Devil Marlena Nylund 's question above, the show started reserving 3.5 hours of airtime at least a few years ago, I just forget exactly when. They finally accepted the fact that they're never able to keep the running time under 3 hours. This is how I would overhaul the Grammys, personally. Awards 3. Awards to be presented on air: artist of the year, song of the year, record of the year, best new artist, and two categories each from pop/rock/country/rap/r&b (at least one of the two should always be the album category). That's 14 awards and gives every genre some deserved attention on stage. There are a lot more 'genres' than that. I don't mind the current format of 1 per genre as much as I wish they'd throw a few more genres in the mix. Why not a Latin award, Short Form Video, and Folk, for instance? They can obviously change it up each year to highlight different genres. They have done that before, it's just usually 1 'random' award. I don't guess they did that this year, though. I was only shooting for the 'big' genres. There are so many more but it becomes a slippery slope - it is rude to say 'no one's checking for best world music or best reggae album' but...how many people are really checking for best world music or best reggae album? If we're going to recognize Latin why would we stop there, and not include jazz or gospel/Christian? So many small niches. I do agree that they could throw in a few randoms for the extra exposure but it would still come down to to picking which random gets showcased over others, which feels wrong somehow. I don't really have a good solution for that.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 14, 2017 22:29:54 GMT -5
Why do people keep saying that the Grammys didn't for what's 'relevant'? Adele is a relevant/current artist, and her music is everywhere. If we're talking about "cultural," her music is definitely embedded in pop culture. This isn't some old fogey winning all of this awards just to play catch up. It's one of the biggest pop stars in the world now. "Hello" was everywhere. 25 broke decade-old records. Adele's tour was massive. Adele is one example of current relevance, and even her album and single feels old, despite having a current single out now. There's nothing the Grammys can do to change the voting patterns. How about more urban artists start rallying for those artists during voting period by actually voting instead of complaining after the results are revealed? That's the only way things will change. It's not like this is the first time this has come up. This has been ongoing for years. Chance The Rapper is very 'relevant' and it was a very bold move to make him Best New Artist with no proper release and that release being a Hip Hop record through and through. But just because Beyoncé got snubbed... Didn't he have an album? What's a "proper release"? Why is it bold to award a Hip Hop artist "through and through"? What?
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 14, 2017 22:35:51 GMT -5
Oh yeah, to answer Devil Marlena Nylund 's question above, the show started reserving 3.5 hours of airtime at least a few years ago, I just forget exactly when. They finally accepted the fact that they're never able to keep the running time under 3 hours. I always think back to the award ceremonies of the mid-to-late 90s as being great shows. Maybe I'm thinking only of the good points but the 1996 Grammys was epic. I wish I could re-watch it in full and take notes about why that show was so good, classic music aside. I just remember it being more about the awards themselves, and about the music being recognized. Recent years, the Grammys are too much about the performances and that puts them in competition with the VMAs rather than the Oscars, and the Grammys should hold onto or build onto that respectability. I like many of your suggestions.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 14, 2017 23:49:17 GMT -5
1) That is not the way things change. White men make up the largest portion of the Academy's voters. The way things change is by getting people on board with recognizing what's made the largest and most meaningful impact in music of the current year. Impact on whom, though? For me this gets back to people needing to think more about NARAS as a whole. The majority of the organization are session musicians, producers, etc. and not the celebrities we all know. What is relevant to, say, Kanye West (or even to you or me) is not necessarily relevant to a cellist who makes a living by playing strings on albums for the [increasingly rare] artist who uses live instruments on their songs. There are a lot more 'genres' than that. I don't mind the current format of 1 per genre as much as I wish they'd throw a few more genres in the mix. Why not a Latin award, Short Form Video, and Folk, for instance? They can obviously change it up each year to highlight different genres. They have done that before, it's just usually 1 'random' award. I don't guess they did that this year, though. I was only shooting for the 'big' genres. There are so many more but it becomes a slippery slope - it is rude to say 'no one's checking for best world music or best reggae album' but...how many people are really checking for best world music or best reggae album? If we're going to recognize Latin why would we stop there, and not include jazz or gospel/Christian? So many small niches. I do agree that they could throw in a few randoms for the extra exposure but it would still come down to to picking which random gets showcased over others, which feels wrong somehow. I don't really have a good solution for that. That is more my point; it gives those genres exposure (I think back to how Ricky Martin's Grammys performance literally lead to the Latin music explosion of the late 90s). I agree with adding a few more awards with some being in more 'relevant' categories for sure, I just think highlighting 1-2 in the fringe categories is great, too. It hit me that last year it was the Musical Show category because of Hamilton. I always think back to the award ceremonies of the mid-to-late 90s as being great shows. Maybe I'm thinking only of the good points but the 1996 Grammys was epic. I wish I could re-watch it in full and take notes about why that show was so good, classic music aside. I just remember it being more about the awards themselves, and about the music being recognized. Recent years, the Grammys are too much about the performances and that puts them in competition with the VMAs rather than the Oscars, and the Grammys should hold onto or build onto that respectability. I like many of your suggestions. Part of me wonders if a lot of it has to do with the changes in celebrity (and awards) culture, though, which is something the Grammys can't really fix. In the 90s we didn't have quite as many awards shows (though they were on the rise), and more so pop culture wasn't nearly what it is now. To that end we hadn't seen the nominated artists for 10 months straight going into the Grammys. We also didn't necessarily know every detail of their life. It was naturally more about the music. Now our culture in general is more about 'fame' and 'going viral' and so forth.
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ry4n
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Post by ry4n on Feb 14, 2017 23:58:57 GMT -5
Adele is one example of current relevance, and even her album and single feels old, despite having a current single out now. I think that has to do with the Grammy cut-off point being so far off from when the actual award show is. Some of the nominatees are going to feel so old because of that.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 15, 2017 7:55:39 GMT -5
Why do people keep saying that the Grammys didn't for what's 'relevant'? Adele is a relevant/current artist, and her music is everywhere. If we're talking about "cultural," her music is definitely embedded in pop culture. This isn't some old fogey winning all of this awards just to play catch up. It's one of the biggest pop stars in the world now. "Hello" was everywhere. 25 broke decade-old records. Adele's tour was massive. Adele is one example of current relevance, and even her album and single feels old, despite having a current single out now. There's nothing the Grammys can do to change the voting patterns. How about more urban artists start rallying for those artists during voting period by actually voting instead of complaining after the results are revealed? That's the only way things will change. It's not like this is the first time this has come up. This has been ongoing for years. Chance The Rapper is very 'relevant' and it was a very bold move to make him Best New Artist with no proper release and that release being a Hip Hop record through and through. But just because Beyoncé got snubbed... Didn't he have an album? What's a "proper release"? Why is it bold to award a Hip Hop artist "through and through"? What? Her single and album feeling "old" has more to do with both being released early in the eligibility period. Blame it on the Academy's eligibility decision. "Hello"and 25 were both bigger successes on the charts than "Formation" and Lemonade in 2016. Not alternative facts. Real ones. As far as the second part, what was your point? As for the last try hard part, Coloring Book wasn't a traditional release. It hasn't been released for sale. It has been released for streaming only, marking the only streaming-only album to win a Grammy. And it was released with no label backing. That's what I meant by "proper." That is a BOLD (and deserving) move for the Grammys, which is being targeted for being "too traditional." Yes, "Through and through" like I said. through and through phrase of through 1. in every aspect; thoroughly or completely. It's a real phrase, not one made up by Tumblr/Twitter users. He's not a Flo Rida. He's pure Hip Hop, something the Grammys do not normally recognize outside of the rap categories. Instead of trying so hard to debate and sound "deep," read and understand what's there. I'm not even going to address 14887fan's long Tumblr/SJW-like post outside of this: the same white men that run the Grammys are the same white men that gave your favorite artists Grammys. Stop acting like this is all a new concept. No one is dismayed by the lack of support for Black artists. They're mad because Beyoncé did not win. Simple as that. I strongly believe that a lot urban artists do no vote. Example: Nelly said that he had been a member for years and did not vote outside of a couple of years. Those urban artists need to vote harder, and it was evident in Beyoncé's case because she did not get R&B Performance or R&B Song nominations, and did not win Rap/Sung Performance as predicted. So, whose to say that it was only "white men" voting against her when her own genre didn't really support her this year?
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on Feb 15, 2017 8:10:10 GMT -5
I'm not even going to address 14887fan's long Tumblr/SJW-like post outside of this: the same white men that run the Grammys are the same white men that gave your favorite artists Grammys. Stop acting like this is all a new concept. No one is dismayed by the lack of support for Black artists. They're mad because Beyoncé did not win. Simple as that. I strongly believe that a lot urban artists do no vote. Example: Nelly said that he had been a member for years and did not vote outside of a couple of years. Those urban artists need to vote harder, and it was evident in Beyoncé's case because she did not get R&B Performance or R&B Song nominations, and did not win Rap/Sung Performance as predicted. So, whose to say that it was only "white men" voting against her when her own genre didn't really support her this year? Let me make enhance your point further. I've been saying this for pages now, along with other posts, yet no one has an answer for this. The press is spewing racial propaganda for the reason she lost, but refuse to look at the bigger picture. NO ONE has written an article on this yet. I bet those "old white" voters are laughing all the way to their home studios without a care in the world. Similar to how Justin's manager put out a full page ad in NYC blasting the Grammys for not giving him BNA. The academy didn't bat an eye.
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Post by Fat Ass Kelly Price on Feb 15, 2017 8:16:09 GMT -5
If this were true, why were we having this conversation in years where Beyoncé was not even nominated?
Yikes @ this sort of "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" narrative you have going on. Let's just say this. There isn't much concrete proof that the old white men are to blame. With that said and acknowledged, there's even less proof that urban artists don't vote. You're taking one example (1 person out of at least 14,000 individuals eligible to vote) and using that to craft an argument that you for some reason strongly believe.
Your mileage varies on that one, because ultimately she did take home her genre's award for her album, despite not being recognized for the prominent single. One could argue that this signals greater support for the body of work rather than the single, not necessarily that urban artists need to vote harder.
Look, you have some potentially valid points, but the way you've framed it is questionable.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 15, 2017 8:16:24 GMT -5
Exactly, Caviar Ratchet.
Those articles screaming "Grammys are racist" always leave out important facts to push their agendas. Artists do this as well. Solange, for example, tweeted how only two Black artists have won AOTY within the past 20 years, but abruptly deleted the tweet when people corrected her on the actual amount being four, which isn't significantly different but proves how facts are always altered to push an agenda. The agenda is to push the Beyoncé machine. lol
Yes, the Grammys have many issues, but rewarding Beyoncé with 22 more Grammys isn't one of them. Sorry.
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Post by Fat Ass Kelly Price on Feb 15, 2017 8:19:21 GMT -5
idk. I'm not sure if I buy this whole lack of urban voters things. You say Beyoncé has 22 Grammys. 21(-ish) of those are in genre-specific categories. So, clearly she's had genre support. She's gone 1/11 in general field nominations. I'm just not sure that these statistics corroborate your narrative.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 15, 2017 8:24:44 GMT -5
Sorry, winning one award in the R&B field and not being nominated for the other R&B categories in which she would normally be a shoo-in for DOES signal that there wasn't much support in her genre.
Her main competition in Urban Contemporary was Anderson .Paak, King, Gallant and Rihanna. The first three are fairly new acts and Rihanna - her biggest competition - was completely shutout of every category. Does not really prove to me that she had the support of her own genre.
So, in order for me to make a point, I must provide 20 other examples other than Nelly? No, sorry. I'm not doing that. I believe that the urban supporters aren't coming out in loads and that's part of the reason they're being snubbed. And I will continue to believe that.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 15, 2017 8:26:48 GMT -5
idk. I'm not sure if I buy this whole lack of urban voters things. You say Beyoncé has 22 Grammys. 21(-ish) of those are in genre-specific categories. So, clearly she's had genre support. She's gone 1/11 in general field nominations. I'm just not sure that these statistics corroborate your narrative. I'm talking about 2017 specifically. And even in the years post-Sasha Fierce, Beyoncé's support in the R&B field had been dwindling, especially compared to her biggest years.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 15, 2017 9:24:38 GMT -5
idk. I'm not sure if I buy this whole lack of urban voters things. You say Beyoncé has 22 Grammys. 21(-ish) of those are in genre-specific categories. So, clearly she's had genre support. She's gone 1/11 in general field nominations. I'm just not sure that these statistics corroborate your narrative. I'm talking about 2017 specifically. And even in the years post-Sasha Fierce, Beyoncé's support in the R&B field had been dwindling, especially compared to her biggest years. Yes. I'd throw in her loss to Pharrell last go round, too; it was assumed she'd at least sweep her genre, but she didn't. So, for the past two releases, she has definitely lost support within her main field. Any reasoning for that would be speculation, but her loss in the Album category last time combined with her not even getting in R&B Performance and R&B Song this time surely mean something. I can't speak to how much younger and "diverse" voting members vote, but I'll also throw out this question; why should 'old white men' vote for who millennials want them to?
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Post by Fat Ass Kelly Price on Feb 15, 2017 9:31:42 GMT -5
Acknowledging that old white men who are a plurality in the voting population have a bias for a certain type of act or music isn't demanding that they conform to Millennial's demands.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 15, 2017 9:39:04 GMT -5
Acknowledging that old white men who are a plurality in the voting population have a bias for a certain type of act or music isn't demanding that they conform to Millennial's demands. In and of itself it isn't, but saying Beyonce (or whomever) should have won and things need to be changed takes it into that territory. Why should Beyonce have won? Because a specific group of people think so?
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on Feb 15, 2017 10:46:31 GMT -5
I'm talking about 2017 specifically. And even in the years post-Sasha Fierce, Beyoncé's support in the R&B field had been dwindling, especially compared to her biggest years. Yes. I'd throw in her loss to Pharrell last go round, too; it was assumed she'd at least sweep her genre, but she didn't. So, for the past two releases, she has definitely lost support within her main field. Any reasoning for that would be speculation, but her loss in the Album category last time combined with her not even getting in R&B Performance and R&B Song this time surely mean something. I can't speak to how much younger and "diverse" voting members vote, but I'll also throw out this question; why should 'old white men' vote for who millennials want them to? 4 is arguably the most R&B album she's released, second to only DIL, yet she only won R&B Traditional for "Love On Top". I definitely agree the R&B genre is over her and feel as if she's been awarded too many times already. This is only speculation on my part, but not unreasonable. Imagine if she would've lost to Rihanna this year. OMG how embarrassing would that have been? Losing to Pharrell 2 years ago was embarrassing enough but luckily for her it wasn't aired.
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Feb 15, 2017 12:03:18 GMT -5
Exactly, Caviar Ratchet. Those articles screaming "Grammys are racist" always leave out important facts to push their agendas. Artists do this as well. Solange, for example, tweeted how only two Black artists have won AOTY within the past 20 years, but abruptly deleted the tweet when people corrected her on the actual amount being four, which isn't significantly different but proves how facts are always altered to push an agenda. The agenda is to push the Beyoncé machine. lol Yes, the Grammys have many issues, but rewarding Beyoncé with 22 more Grammys isn't one of them. Sorry. Right. This is not racial, this a genre's issue. The urban genre is not respected as much in the General Field, it has been that a while now. Seriously, to think that Bruno and company won for record in ROTY that would have considered R&B back in the day, but in today's music is now Pop, that's absurd to me. I read those Solange's tweets, she did have a good point for us (blacks) starting our own awards yet her stats were off. I know her frustration was because her sister did not win; however, she should been in AOTY category over her sister, seriously. Most definitely won too. Again, Beyonce will try and try to get an AOTY award until the very end. Her more urban sounding album with a mix of Pop here and there won't win her anything. She should try sending her album to Pop Album next time around. I mean she has been moving away from urban category (at least trying) somewhat even though she always send out an urban sounding track every go round to radio for sales. I believe the committee is catching on to her game. Lyrically, Lemonade's is quite spotty to me. "25" is quite more well written even if the production to most of the songs are just there. "25" is still instrumental driven album, which I could understand the support.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 15, 2017 12:31:24 GMT -5
Yes. I'd throw in her loss to Pharrell last go round, too; it was assumed she'd at least sweep her genre, but she didn't. So, for the past two releases, she has definitely lost support within her main field. Any reasoning for that would be speculation, but her loss in the Album category last time combined with her not even getting in R&B Performance and R&B Song this time surely mean something. I can't speak to how much younger and "diverse" voting members vote, but I'll also throw out this question; why should 'old white men' vote for who millennials want them to? 4 is arguably the most R&B album she's released, second to only DIL, yet she only won R&B Traditional for "Love On Top". I definitely agree the R&B genre is over her and feel as if she's been awarded too many times already. This is only speculation on my part, but not unreasonable. Imagine if she would've lost to Rihanna this year. OMG how embarrassing would that have been? Losing to Pharrell 2 years ago was embarrassing enough but luckily for her it wasn't aired. I had completely forgotten that 4 didn't get almost any Grammy love, including no genre Album nomination. Yeah, I think voters got Beyonce fatigue after IASF. A very similar thing happened with Alicia Keys after she won 2 Grammys for "No One" (in addition to all of her previous ones) as the next year the album didn't get a genre nomination, and she was left out of R&B Song. "Girl on Fire" didn't get any nominations either, just the album. In the R&B categories in particular, it seems like they've made a real move to highlight lesser known acts. Some popular and iconic acts have been left out of categories the past few years while acts like Luke James, Ledisi, Ro James, etc have gotten in.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 15, 2017 12:45:46 GMT -5
Exactly, Caviar Ratchet. Those articles screaming "Grammys are racist" always leave out important facts to push their agendas. Artists do this as well. Solange, for example, tweeted how only two Black artists have won AOTY within the past 20 years, but abruptly deleted the tweet when people corrected her on the actual amount being four, which isn't significantly different but proves how facts are always altered to push an agenda. The agenda is to push the Beyoncé machine. lol Yes, the Grammys have many issues, but rewarding Beyoncé with 22 more Grammys isn't one of them. Sorry. Right. This is not racial, this a genre's issue. The urban genre is not respected as much in the General Field, it has been that a while now. Seriously, to think that Bruno and company won for record in ROTY that would have considered R&B back in the day, but in today's music is now Pop, that's absurd to me. I read those Solange's tweets, she did have a good point for us (blacks) starting our own awards yet her stats were off. I know her frustration was because her sister did not win; however, she should been in AOTY category over her sister, seriously. Most definitely won too. Again, Beyonce will try and try to get an AOTY award until the very end. Her more urban sounding album with a mix of Pop here and there won't win her anything. She should try sending her album to Pop Album next time around. I mean she has been moving away from urban category (at least trying) somewhat even though she always send out an urban sounding track every go round to radio for sales. I believe the committee is catching on to her game. Lyrically, Lemonade's is quite spotty to me. "25" is quite more well written even if the production to most of the songs are just there. "25" is still instrumental driven album, which I could understand the support. I also think it's more of a genre issue, though that could indirectly be a race issue. I again come back to the way different genres are made. "Urban music" (and the Grammys really need to get away from the term 'urban') tends to be more producer/studio driven. NARAS as a whole is filled with musicians, and they prefer artists and genres that focus on musicianship. That's why Herbie Hancock and Beck can win AOTY. They also tend to love artists who write and seem in control of their artistic vision. That's why Adele, Taylor Swift, and even Lauryn Hill won AOTY. For whatever reason, Beyonce doesn't seem to get as much credit as an artist (i.e. someone who writes and controls the direction of her songs). Plenty of R&B (and black) artists have done well and won major Grammys, and the main through line is that they all write and in most cases play an instrument. Look at Stevie Wonder, Alicia Keys, Michael Jackson, Roberta Flack, Lauryn Hill, Quincy Jones, Herbie Hancock, Bobby McFerrin, etc. Lastly, don't black artists already have their own awards with the NAACP Image Awards, the BET Awards, and the Soul Train Music Awards?
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 15, 2017 13:09:40 GMT -5
Yes, There are black award shows. The problem is, when certain artists become of a certain status, they tend to neglect those award shows. So, even mention that to again, push an agenda, is laughable. Especially when Beyoncé has been criticized for showing more support for those "white" shows over the black ones in recent years.
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Feb 15, 2017 13:14:24 GMT -5
Right. This is not racial, this a genre's issue. The urban genre is not respected as much in the General Field, it has been that a while now. Seriously, to think that Bruno and company won for record in ROTY that would have considered R&B back in the day, but in today's music is now Pop, that's absurd to me. I read those Solange's tweets, she did have a good point for us (blacks) starting our own awards yet her stats were off. I know her frustration was because her sister did not win; however, she should been in AOTY category over her sister, seriously. Most definitely won too. Again, Beyonce will try and try to get an AOTY award until the very end. Her more urban sounding album with a mix of Pop here and there won't win her anything. She should try sending her album to Pop Album next time around. I mean she has been moving away from urban category (at least trying) somewhat even though she always send out an urban sounding track every go round to radio for sales. I believe the committee is catching on to her game. Lyrically, Lemonade's is quite spotty to me. "25" is quite more well written even if the production to most of the songs are just there. "25" is still instrumental driven album, which I could understand the support. I also think it's more of a genre issue, though that could indirectly be a race issue. I again come back to the way different genres are made. "Urban music" (and the Grammys really need to get away from the term 'urban') tends to be more producer/studio driven. NARAS as a whole is filled with musicians, and they prefer artists and genres that focus on musicianship. That's why Herbie Hancock and Beck can win AOTY. They also tend to love artists who write and seem in control of their artistic vision. That's why Adele, Taylor Swift, and even Lauryn Hill won AOTY. For whatever reason, Beyonce doesn't seem to get as much credit as an artist (i.e. someone who writes and controls the direction of her songs). Plenty of R&B (and black) artists have done well and won major Grammys, and the main through line is that they all write and in most cases play an instrument. Look at Stevie Wonder, Alicia Keys, Michael Jackson, Roberta Flack, Lauryn Hill, Quincy Jones, Herbie Hancock, Bobby McFerrin, etc. Lastly, don't black artists already have their own awards with the NAACP Image Awards, the BET Awards, and the Soul Train Music Awards? Agree. I mean "urban" is a style, but I could see where the committee does not look at it that way yet instead of the process of how it is done. I think several fans of Beyonce fail to see that. She is not respected in regards of an artist. I personally don't see her as an artist, but a singer. She has a great team that could get her vision (partial) across greatly. However, she is not the producer and writer of her projects, also does not lead her videos too. She puts in ideas, but don't start them. If I'm wrong, then her team has failed her to let people know her real involvement. Typically, I hear she may change this or that on a song. This 60 to 80 writers on her projects won't get her AOTY and I strongly believe that. She gets far more credit than where her work actually comes from. Even her performance at Grammy was not original, yet it was Beyonce so the praise is there. These things factor into what the committee actually think of her. Yes, black artists do have their own awards yet they have been out of style for minute that due to black artists not showing up and also the extreme of hip hop artists overshadowing them (R&B). The importance is not there anymore for these black artist because the Grammy is still their top awards. I believe Solange's point was that blacks need to make it a point that blacks have their own Grammy style awards. The three you mention, personally, are out of style and again, it does not hold weight, they once had, unfortunately. Black artists need to rebuild and refocus the attention on something new if these three cannot establish a new interest in them.
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Feb 15, 2017 13:17:01 GMT -5
Yes, There are black awards show. The problem is, when certain become of a certain status, they tend to neglect those awards show. So, even mention that to again, push an agenda, is laughable. Especially when Beyoncé has been criticized for showing more support for those "white" shows over the black ones in recent years. Right. Nobody calls her out for that either. Last year, she performed at the BET Award and left. Her mama accepted all of her awards. While at the VMAs, she performed and accepted all of her awards. Her agenda is clear yet nobody says anything about that. I noticed it for a while now.
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on Feb 15, 2017 13:47:35 GMT -5
Yes, There are black awards show. The problem is, when certain become of a certain status, they tend to neglect those awards show. So, even mention that to again, push an agenda, is laughable. Especially when Beyoncé has been criticized for showing more support for those "white" shows over the black ones in recent years. Right. Nobody calls her out for that either. Last year, she performed at the BET Award and left. Her mama accepted all of her awards. While at the VMAs, she performed and accepted all of her awards. Her agenda is clear yet nobody says anything about that. I noticed it for a while now. TGJ posted a topic on this very issue a few hours ago. Her fans are making all kinds of excuses, but the one that sticks out for the reason she didn't stay was because BET made fun of her daughter's hair. So why show up at all?!? There's NAACP, Black Girls Rock, Soul Train Awards etc. that she could attend but chooses to only show up for the mainstream awards. Talk about black empowerment.
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Wave.
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Post by Wave. on Feb 15, 2017 13:59:30 GMT -5
Didn't she have to be at a show in France the next night?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 14:00:55 GMT -5
I think black artists should always support black geared award shows and their roots however I disagree with this whole notion that Beyonce or anyone else supports "white" award shows. Just like TV or anything else their are niche channels for everyone but places like the Oscars or Grammies are not white or geared for just white people. They are and should be for everyone else. So no black artists should not just hole themselves in urban award shows and miss out on views and money that comes with mainstream exposure. The Grammies need to put more Rnb and urban categories on the main show and they need call a few more black acts than just the typical 3 or 4. You're supposed to be the Bible of music so come on reach in and give us Lalah Hathaway moment or something.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 15, 2017 14:10:00 GMT -5
I think black artists should always support black geared award shows and their roots however I disagree with this whole notion that Beyonce or anyone else supports "white" award shows. Just like TV or anything else their are niche channels for everyone but places like the Oscars or Grammies are not white or geared for just white people. They are and should be for everyone else. So no black artists should not just hole themselves in urban award shows and miss out on views and money that comes with mainstream exposure. The Grammies need to put more Rnb and urban categories on the main show and they need call a few more black acts than just the typical 3 or 4. You're supposed to be the Bible of music so come on reach in and give us Lalah Hathaway moment or something. I agree with this, even though the Grammys are now featuring Gary Clark Jr (every year it seems now) and Anderson .Paak. When will Ledisi or Lalah Hathaway get their due? But regardless of that, you can support all shows. It's just ironic that Solange says "build our own institution." Is she forgetting the BET Awards, Soul Train Awards and NAACP Awards? No, she's just leaving out important information to defend her sister.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 15, 2017 14:14:38 GMT -5
I also think it's more of a genre issue, though that could indirectly be a race issue. I again come back to the way different genres are made. "Urban music" (and the Grammys really need to get away from the term 'urban') tends to be more producer/studio driven. NARAS as a whole is filled with musicians, and they prefer artists and genres that focus on musicianship. That's why Herbie Hancock and Beck can win AOTY. They also tend to love artists who write and seem in control of their artistic vision. That's why Adele, Taylor Swift, and even Lauryn Hill won AOTY. For whatever reason, Beyonce doesn't seem to get as much credit as an artist (i.e. someone who writes and controls the direction of her songs). Plenty of R&B (and black) artists have done well and won major Grammys, and the main through line is that they all write and in most cases play an instrument. Look at Stevie Wonder, Alicia Keys, Michael Jackson, Roberta Flack, Lauryn Hill, Quincy Jones, Herbie Hancock, Bobby McFerrin, etc. Lastly, don't black artists already have their own awards with the NAACP Image Awards, the BET Awards, and the Soul Train Music Awards? Agree. I mean "urban" is a style, but I could see where the committee does not look at it that way yet instead of the process of how it is done. I think several fans of Beyonce fail to see that. She is not respected in regards of an artist. I personally don't see her as an artist, but a singer. She has a great team that could get her vision (partial) across greatly. However, she is not the producer and writer of her projects, also does not lead her videos too. She puts in ideas, but don't start them. If I'm wrong, then her team has failed her to let people know her real involvement. Typically, I hear she may change this or that on a song. This 60 to 80 writers on her projects won't get her AOTY and I strongly believe that. She gets far more credit than where her work actually comes from. Even her performance at Grammy was not original, yet it was Beyonce so the praise is there. These things factor into what the committee actually think of her. Yes, black artists do have their own awards yet they have been out of style for minute that due to black artists not showing up and also the extreme of hip hop artists overshadowing them (R&B). The importance is not there anymore for these black artist because the Grammy is still their top awards. I believe Solange's point was that blacks need to make it a point that blacks have their own Grammy style awards. The three you mention, personally, are out of style and again, it does not hold weight, they once had, unfortunately. Black artists need to rebuild and refocus the attention on something new if these three cannot establish a new interest in them. The BET Awards is the closest thing you will get to a "black version of the Grammys" when it comes to ratings, name recognition and hype. I disagree. The BET Awards are not out of style. Every year it still brings in huge ratings for a cable TV show and always rivals the VMAs. They should "rebuild" what they already have if they feel that those award shows are "outdated." Otherwise, they're just creating platforms just to create them.
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