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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Jan 15, 2012 1:07:12 GMT -5
Especially since gaga has far and away more involvement in her work than Madonna has ever had in hers. Madonna is all marketing and sexual innuendo. Gaga is raw talent. I like Madonna but it made me think girl you don't even have as much talent but you are trying to throw shade at the girls who could actually sing and play musical instruments... Madonna's collaborators have confirmed her high level of involvement, not to mention her handwritten lyrics and melodies that have been found and put up for auction over the years. Madonna can sing and play instruments: This is all so rich coming from a Janet stan - a woman who had a secret husband ghost writing her music for a decade, that didn't have a single writing credit on her last album, and whose vocal range is whisper to nasally whine. The writers and producers are on the payroll of course they aren't going to say anything that might hurt their royalties or future prospects for work. It's clear Madonna jumps from producer to producer exploiting these people's writing and production abilities. Now she sounds like a Katy Perry b-side and has the nerve to throw shade at the girl with far superior musical talent when compared to her own. |
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Mpol
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Post by Mpol on Jan 15, 2012 1:32:22 GMT -5
But if she is so tallented why must she blatently steal from others? Reductive no? For someone SO tallented.
Madonna's music abilities are very unnderrated. Lyrically she has written some beautiful music. And when she works with the a great producer, together they make amazing stuff.
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Jan 15, 2012 2:03:27 GMT -5
I'll reply to this comment too because I just read Madonna's wiki page where there was a huge section about her inspirations and influences on particular songs and videos. Again, you can't say one singer "blatently steals" from others while the other is "modestly influenced" by others. It works both ways.
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chartfreak
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Post by chartfreak on Jan 15, 2012 2:12:37 GMT -5
We have to put up with Adonis in 2012!
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Jan 15, 2012 2:21:34 GMT -5
I'll reply to this comment too because I just read Madonna's wiki page where there was a huge section about her inspirations and influences on particular songs and videos. Again, you can't say one singer "blatently steals" from others while the other is "modestly influenced" by others. It works both ways. Everything is influenced by what came before it, in one way or another, intentionally or unintentionally. As far as my diva vs. your diva is concerned, it's all moot as *nothing* is created in the mainstream. It's created underground/by alternative acts and then mainstream acts slowly adapt it. What Madonna has over all the other female pop stars is the fact that she was the first mainstream female recording act to achieve that level of control over their music, image, live performances, and obviously videos. She was also the first mainstream act to discuss and to push all the issues she did, and as far and as blatantly as she did. Bringing that back to the comparisons to Gaga, her gay warrior attitude is only allowed, and allowed to be revered, because of what Madonna did 20 years earlier. Madonna isn't going to let anyone forget that either, as according to rumors Madonna is going to have the Indianapolis Gay Mens Choir on stage with her during the Super Bowl Halftime Show. Let that one sink in a bit. |
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🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾
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Post by 🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾 on Jan 15, 2012 3:02:11 GMT -5
Madonna's quotation about Gaga has already become the basis of a song. This producer who made it previously made a track called "Open The Door" that sampled a bit from an interview where she wanted the door opened and a fan turned on because it was so hot. soundcloud.com/djpaulo-1/reductive-paulos-drumapellaWe should talk with Marilyn Monroe, Betty Hutton and the staples singers and see how they feel about their work being simplified and reduced by the likes of Madonna who put out sex books with random guys fondling her. What does her making the Sex book have to do with those 3 individuals? ??? In an interview with the Mirror, asked about the No1 in her Âcurrent music collection, Madonna replied Adele. "I love Adele," said Madonna. "I think she's amazing and has an Âincredible voice. She impresses me most out of the new artists today." Read more: drownedmadonna.com/#ixzz1jUjjodVf That's nice to know.  It's clear Madonna jumps from producer to producer exploiting these people's writing and production abilities. Now she sounds like a Katy Perry b-side and has the nerve to throw shade at the girl with far superior musical talent when compared to her own. But she has reunited with William Orbit on this album. Before he worked with her on Ray Of Light, he also did several remixes for her. Now her label may have selected him for those songs, but he could have declined to do that and not even work with her later. |
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botoxic
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Post by botoxic on Jan 15, 2012 4:57:26 GMT -5
It sounds like sour grapes of the less musically inclined MDNA (but born this way). Gaga had already said more than once that Madonna was a huge influence on her. I think that's too much recognition....Especially since gaga has far and away more involvement in her work than Madonna has ever had in hers. Madonna is all marketing and sexual innuendo. Gaga is raw talent. I like Madonna but it made me think girl you don't even have as much talent but you are trying to throw shade at the girls who could actually sing and play musical instruments... You seem to be arguing that Madonna has no talent, cannot sing, and cannot play musical instruments, all of which are not true. Conversely, you are implying that GaGa's success has little to do with marketing or sexual innuendo, which is also not true. GaGa will need talent, marketing, sexual innuendo, and more if she has any hope of maintaining the level of popularity into her 50's that Madonna has. And if, at that time, an up-and-coming starlet sings a song that sounds remarkably similar to one of GaGa's, and if the interest in GaGa is still high enough that she is asked about it, I would maintain that GaGa will have earned the right to say pretty much anything she wants about it. |
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SuperTrouper
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Post by SuperTrouper on Jan 15, 2012 5:05:43 GMT -5
I think the issue with something like "Born This Way" is the "denial"- it would be less of an issue if the influence was discussed/acknowledged for the track more than it was. Of course, Stefani in general has talked about how highly she thinks of Madonna and how much she loves her work and has been influenced by it. That's exactly what it is. She denied the similarities so fervently, and even went as far as calling these claims "retarded". If she had admitted that BTW is a simple extension of her Madonna fascination, all would be OK. But it seems like Adonis sidestepped this argument beautifully  |
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floridagrl
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Post by floridagrl on Jan 15, 2012 9:11:52 GMT -5
That's exactly what it is. She denied the similarities so fervently, and even went as far as calling these claims "retarded". If she had admitted that BTW is a simple extension of her Madonna fascination, all would be OK. But it seems like Adonis sidestepped this argument beautifully What I don't get is why she denied the similarities to them later when at first she said Madonna gave her love and complete support to the single. If she really didn't think they were similar, why didn't she state that to Jay Leno when she was on his show? skip to 8:30 Her people probably made her change her statement in fear of reprisal? I don't know....I don't get it. But it is forever on video that she acknowledges the similarities. "If The Queen says it shall be, it shall be"--Lady GaGa |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Jan 15, 2012 9:48:53 GMT -5
I'll reply to this comment too because I just read Madonna's wiki page where there was a huge section about her inspirations and influences on particular songs and videos. Again, you can't say one singer "blatently steals" from others while the other is "modestly influenced" by others. It works both ways. Everything is influenced by what came before it, in one way or another, intentionally or unintentionally. As far as my diva vs. your diva is concerned, it's all moot as *nothing* is created in the mainstream. It's created underground/by alternative acts and then mainstream acts slowly adapt it. What Madonna has over all the other female pop stars is the fact that she was the first mainstream female recording act to achieve that level of control over their music, image, live performances, and obviously videos. She was also the first mainstream act to discuss and to push all the issues she did, and as far and as blatantly as she did. Bringing that back to the comparisons to Gaga, her gay warrior attitude is only allowed, and allowed to be revered, because of what Madonna did 20 years earlier. Madonna isn't going to let anyone forget that either, as according to rumors Madonna is going to have the Indianapolis Gay Mens Choir on stage with her during the Super Bowl Halftime Show. Let that one sink in a bit. So essentially you're saying that because she was a winner of circumstance, being the first woman to achieve a lot of things (and she did, though people like Marilyn, Deborah Harry and a few others have as well), no other woman should be able to win acclaim or have any sort of status that attributes them as achieving something because it's been done before? Nearly every major female pop star is compared to Madonna at the beginning of their career. It's like a stepping stone. Gwen Stefani and Britney Spears to name a few. And because Madonna has achieved so much in the music world, she has a lot of ground covered. But so did the Beatles when it comes to rock and pop music. Yet there are so many bands, present day and recent past that sound like that. Nearly every rock band credits the Beatles with helping shape their sound in the first place, everyone knows their achievements and the impact they've had yet rock bands have room to breathe, be successful and not face criticism if they're attributed with helping to shape modern day rock music in one very small, minuscule way. Yet when it comes to women, it always comes down to the fact that Madonna already did that. Being the first doesn't mean that nobody should be allowed to expand on what's been done or push the envelope even further. People will always remember the first person in that aspect but there's really only so far that person can go. Regarding the "gay warrior attitude" part, GaGa expanded on what Madonna and others have done and get above and beyond what any mainstream pop singer has ever done in that area. Having openly and obvious gay members participate in a live performance is certainly nothing new and having a self-identifying gay choir participate in Madonna's superbowl performance doesn't really phase me in any way. Good for her but it can be said that any serious work she does, other than represent the huge chunk of the gay population that considers her the queen, can be said to be working off of the work GaGa has done. I don't think GaGa has taken the role she has because of what Madonna has done. Gay rights have been front row and centre for a couple of years now as it is. That in itself can be attributed to people like Madonna, Cher and many other celebrities (because it's definitely not only one ONE person) but GaGa is the one singer to actually make it near the centre of what she does. |
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jan 15, 2012 10:01:11 GMT -5
This thread's going to be come a hot mess in the coming weeks, you can tell. :) It remains true, that when one act is so revered and is considered as one of the greatest and most important- Madonna, in this case- fans whose favorites (or one of them) are not get into a tizzy and try- unsuccessfully- to bring down the other act. It's a never-ending cycle, it seems- and pretty humorous at that. But, what can ya do. Can't wait to see Adonis defend Damita Jo (one of my favorites, but who is not regarded anywhere near as highly as Madonna) against the detractors when she has new music coming out. Stefani Gaga is the result of throwing a number acts in a blender- Madonna, Michael Jackson, Freddie Mercury, David Bowie, Grace Jones, Elton John, etc. etc.. She is talented, but there is no debating that she's pulling a Madonna redux- which is fine- what better female act to emulate? Yes, she's going further in the gay-rights world, but it's not like Madonna had not been there already- she just didn't make it the focal point of her crusade. Madge took bits and pieces of influences before her and took them further than anyone, in various cultural areas. That's why she became such a cultural force, whose work has been analyzed and studied for its implications on gender, racial, religious, sexual and social mores. It was she who showed that mainstream pop music can mean something and not be completely frivolous. Stefani has expressed how much she loves Madonna- not sure why M's comments are such an issue to some "little monsters." But, that shows the importance of what she has to say- still, to this day. And, any act will have collaborators saying good things about them- ANY act. She has worked with various producers because she obviously strives for fresh sounds- more opportunity for diversity and variety, rather than constantly going back to the same ol' producers. Being the grand-dame bitch that she is, I have no issue with her getting what she wants out of them and then tossing them to the side.  |
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slw84
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Post by slw84 on Jan 15, 2012 10:03:35 GMT -5
We should talk with Marilyn Monroe, Betty Hutton and the staples singers and see how they feel about their work being simplified and reduced by the likes of Madonna who put out sex books with random guys fondling her. Jealous??? LOL.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2012 10:11:01 GMT -5
I hate to interrupt the arguing, but the rumour is that the single is premiering in the next few hours on Radio 1.
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Juanca
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Post by Juanca on Jan 15, 2012 10:21:24 GMT -5
Well, another issue is that young people do not have a good perspective of what Madonna really did and how she kicked and opened formerly closed doors. She made non-straight sexuality a big component of her artistic persona back in the late 80s/ early 90s. She was perceived as bisexual, highlighting the role of gay people in her creations (Vogue, JML, Erotica, Sex, Girlie Show, Truth or Dare). It's not like her songs were identified by gay people as their anthems ala Kylie or Cher. There is already a difference over there.
Lady Gaga has also made it a key topic. But she definitely has it easier 20 years afterwards because times have changed and pop musical expression has become more tolerant, among other reasons because of people like Madonna that pushed buttons and boundaries 3 decades ago. Just saying
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Juanca
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Post by Juanca on Jan 15, 2012 10:26:12 GMT -5
Have you guys seen this blog? helpmothermonster.blogspot.com/ Really? Well, I assume there might be similar blog from Madonna fans, but this is going a bit far, me thinks  |
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slw84
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Post by slw84 on Jan 15, 2012 10:31:38 GMT -5
Well, another issue is that young people do not have a good perspective of what Madonna really did and how she kicked and opened formerly closed doors. She made non-straight sexuality a big component of her artistic persona back in the late 80s/ early 90s. She was perceived as bisexual, highlighting the role of gay people in her creations (Vogue, JML, Erotica, Sex, Girlie Show, Truth or Dare). It's not like her songs were identified by gay people as their anthems ala Kylie or Cher. There is already a difference over there. Lady Gaga has also made it a key topic. But she definitely has it easier 20 years afterwards because times have changed and pop musical expression has become more tolerant, among other reasons because of people like Madonna that pushed buttons and boundaries 3 decades ago. Just saying Yeah, I will not pretend that Madonna has an envious vocal prowess especially since i have faves that are in a similar boat but if we are going to talk about ppl that can "sing" at least name Adele, Xtina and people that sound amazing live. Madonna was a pioneer and really changed the game. Either way, a veteran and proven legend and icon who has maintained relevance after 30 years way beyond her peak vs. artists that have peaked after 3 years and have not yet proven longevity and the ability to maintain relevance and sustainability is a bit odd. It reminds me of those ppl saying new artist are bigger stars than artist of the past because they are selling well NOW. It's about somebody's body of work not what they are doing when they are hot. Simply put music can be defined as Before Madonna and After Madonna. That's all that matters, really :'( :'( :'( |
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jan 15, 2012 10:32:51 GMT -5
^Yes- it's rather sad that there's anyone who would bother. it's like, don't they have more constructive, important things to do in their life?
BILLY- if it does premiere, hope it's the final version and not the demo, sans M.I.A. and Minaj. :)
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floridagrl
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Post by floridagrl on Jan 15, 2012 10:33:01 GMT -5
Have you guys seen this blog? helpmothermonster.blogspot.com/Really? Well, I assume there might be similar blog from Madonna fans, but this is going a bit far, me thinks This cannot be real! LG is has been on an anti-bullying campaign. Her own fans cannot be doing this. Can they? Has she said anything about this? |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Jan 15, 2012 10:33:33 GMT -5
Have you guys seen this blog? helpmothermonster.blogspot.com/Really? Well, I assume there might be similar blog from Madonna fans, but this is going a bit far, me thinks Has nothing to do with this topic and certainly isn't someone that represents the people that post here. That person is obviously an idiot who actually needs help. |
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SuperTrouper
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Post by SuperTrouper on Jan 15, 2012 10:34:27 GMT -5
Have you guys seen this blog? helpmothermonster.blogspot.com/Really? Well, I assume there might be similar blog from Madonna fans, but this is going a bit far, me thinks I couldn't tell if they were serious or not, but than I saw this: They simply must be trolling. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2012 10:40:36 GMT -5
As if there aren't worse people than that on both sides on this forum.
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jumpb4uthink
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Post by jumpb4uthink on Jan 15, 2012 11:09:10 GMT -5
^Yes- it's rather sad that there's anyone who would bother. it's like, don't they have more constructive, important things to do in their life? BILLY- if it does premiere, hope it's the final version and not the demo, sans M.I.A. and Minaj. :) Exactly. Madonna and Gaga could really care less and most probably are unaware of this silly war. From what I have always thought and read, they are friends who respect each other. That's really all that matters. Hope the song doesn't leak this early. |
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Jan 15, 2012 11:30:24 GMT -5
I like Madonna but I just think she's way off base on this one and i'll leave it at that.
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Mack
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Post by Mack on Jan 15, 2012 11:49:25 GMT -5
Have you guys seen this blog? helpmothermonster.blogspot.com/Really? Well, I assume there might be similar blog from Madonna fans, but this is going a bit far, me thinks "International Monsters Against Madonna Week?" Are you f*cking kidding me? |
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dbhmr
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>
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Post by dbhmr on Jan 15, 2012 11:53:12 GMT -5
Lawl, I'll just be  in this thread for months. Getting more anxious for this song/album every day. |
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Post by areyoureadytojump on Jan 15, 2012 11:54:07 GMT -5
I like Madonna but I just think she's way off base on this one and i'll leave it at that. And before Madonna said "reductive," she said a lot of nice things about Gaga. People are really blowing this out of proportion. |
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jan 15, 2012 11:56:21 GMT -5
^The Queen's Speech causing a global commotion. |
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slw84
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Post by slw84 on Jan 15, 2012 12:04:08 GMT -5
We have to put up with Adonis in 2012! v Madonna does with Mariah, Britney, Beyonce, Rihanna, Nicki and many others do best...success is the best form of revenge on dem gorls. |
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Oprah
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Post by Oprah on Jan 15, 2012 12:43:01 GMT -5
It's amazing that Madonna can still cause this much commotion thirty years on. That in and of itself says quite a lot.
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Jan 15, 2012 12:57:27 GMT -5
Everything is influenced by what came before it, in one way or another, intentionally or unintentionally. As far as my diva vs. your diva is concerned, it's all moot as *nothing* is created in the mainstream. It's created underground/by alternative acts and then mainstream acts slowly adapt it. What Madonna has over all the other female pop stars is the fact that she was the first mainstream female recording act to achieve that level of control over their music, image, live performances, and obviously videos. She was also the first mainstream act to discuss and to push all the issues she did, and as far and as blatantly as she did. Bringing that back to the comparisons to Gaga, her gay warrior attitude is only allowed, and allowed to be revered, because of what Madonna did 20 years earlier. Madonna isn't going to let anyone forget that either, as according to rumors Madonna is going to have the Indianapolis Gay Mens Choir on stage with her during the Super Bowl Halftime Show. Let that one sink in a bit. So essentially you're saying that because she was a winner of circumstance, Not circumstance, her hard work, conviction and determination. No other female act had ever even tried to do all that she did, that's the whole point and that is why she is the template. |
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