Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jan 26, 2012 19:17:08 GMT -5
their albums aren't acclaimed at all though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Whitney's debut is acclaimed. As are Madonna's and Janet's. No, YOU'RE not checking for their music. Right. Their back catalogs weren't selling prior to their most current releases. PLEASE. Yes, they have. No, you're stating YOUR OPINION. If you're talking actually acclaim, Madonna > Janet > Whitney > Mariah > Celine. The first three are the most influential women of the past 50 years.
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like2throw
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Post by like2throw on Jan 26, 2012 21:02:44 GMT -5
their albums aren't acclaimed at all though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Whitney's debut is acclaimed. As are Madonna's and Janet's. No, YOU'RE not checking for their music. Right. Their back catalogs weren't selling prior to their most current releases. PLEASE. Yes, they have. No, you're stating YOUR OPINION. If you're talking actually acclaim, Madonna > Janet > Whitney > Mariah > Celine. The first three are the most influential women of the past 50 years. lol were gonna have to agree to disagree. If you think the discographies of Mariah and Whitney hold up to Prince, Bruce and other colleagues then I guess there's no point even arguing right? Nothing I can do can refute your veiwpoint other than facts from other critics, which are also just opinions.... But its lightweight music, thats the whole point of it. Their songs are Lightweight, and they are considered the most influential, which in turns make them the measuring stick for other contemporary female artists, and in this case, the measuring stick which the new ones are judged by is low, because they dont aim high to begin with because of their influences. You have a strong enough voice like whitney and mariah, then you get stuck singing middle of the road ballads. Same with Madonna; when judging a female artist image comes before the actual art itself. edit: You said 50 years? So discredit Aretha, Etta James, Tina Turner and Janis Joplin...right......
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Kishi KCM
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Post by Kishi KCM on Jan 26, 2012 22:00:49 GMT -5
It's possible. It all depends on how they construct it. If it were to be based off of overall success, then the two are pretty split even. Taylor has more sales & tour revenue, and Carrie has better charting records and statistical records [as well as respectable sales]. They're about dead-even in the awards collection, and Carrie has the vocal credits, while Taylor has the writing credits. I'm curious to see which one comes out in a higher position than the other. I think they'll both be in the 30-50 range, though. If I were to think up a top 10, it would probably include... -Madonna -Mariah Carey -Whitney Houston -Beyoncé -Britney Spears -Celine Dion Many are forgetting Janet. She had so much success from 1990-2002. Love Will Never Do, That's the way Love Goes, If, Got Til It's Gone, Together Again, Go Deep, Runaway, All For You, Someone to Call My Lover. And countless album sales. I think her lackluster past 5-6 years makes people forget what a big part of pop culture she has been. They won't forget once the show comes on, she'll have a great ranking. Of course the ladies who've had most of their success in the 2000s (Britney, Beyonce, P!nk, Ashanti, Christina, Fergie, Kelly, Rihanna, Jennifer, Lady GaGa) will appear, but I do believe the females of the 1990s will have a huge advantage.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jan 26, 2012 23:03:32 GMT -5
Visions- Damita's debut was not acclaimed; Control, though, was and is. :)
Again, in general, the most acclaimed/celebrated male acts get more critical love than the most acclaimed females. At Acclaimed Music, for instance, there are only a handful of female acts in the top 100. And we see males outnumber females by a big amount in best-of lists all the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2012 23:35:27 GMT -5
Out of the 2nd batch of the younger generation (i.e. bar Beyonce and Britney Spears), I think it will just be Lady Gaga and Rihanna. I know Carrie Underwood's sales are amazing but I don't really see how she would make the list tbh..
Kelly Clarkson I could more see but even that seems a bit questionable because of her current status.
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jan 26, 2012 23:52:26 GMT -5
lol were gonna have to agree to disagree. If you think the discographies of Mariah and Whitney hold up to Prince, Bruce and other colleagues then I guess there's no point even arguing right? Nothing I can do can refute your veiwpoint other than facts from other critics, which are also just opinions.... So now we're comparing discographies now? Tangent much? WHAT? ??? So image isn't art now? Dear, LORD. I didn't discredit them. I simply said those three are the most influential of the past 50 years.
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jan 26, 2012 23:53:48 GMT -5
Visions- Damita's debut was not acclaimed; Control, though, was and is. :) Again, in general, the most acclaimed/celebrated male acts get more critical love than the most acclaimed females. At Acclaimed Music, for instance, there are only a handful of female acts in the top 100. And we see males outnumber females by a big amount in best-of lists all the time. I meant as in Janet and Madonna's albums are acclaimed, not their debuts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 0:19:34 GMT -5
Whitney's debut is acclaimed. As are Madonna's and Janet's. No, YOU'RE not checking for their music. Right. Their back catalogs weren't selling prior to their most current releases. PLEASE. Yes, they have. No, you're stating YOUR OPINION. If you're talking actually acclaim, Madonna > Janet > Whitney > Mariah > Celine. The first three are the most influential women of the past 50 years. lol were gonna have to agree to disagree. If you think the discographies of Mariah and Whitney hold up to Prince, Bruce and other colleagues then I guess there's no point even arguing right? Nothing I can do can refute your veiwpoint other than facts from other critics, which are also just opinions.... But its lightweight music, thats the whole point of it. Their songs are Lightweight, and they are considered the most influential, which in turns make them the measuring stick for other contemporary female artists, and in this case, the measuring stick which the new ones are judged by is low, because they dont aim high to begin with because of their influences. You have a strong enough voice like whitney and mariah, then you get stuck singing middle of the road ballads. Same with Madonna; when judging a female artist image comes before the actual art itself. edit: You said 50 years? So discredit Aretha, Etta James, Tina Turner and Janis Joplin...right...... Lightweight by whose definitions though? What exactly defines the difference between lightweight and meaningful? Again, this is your opinion. HG summed it all up in one sentence: "Music has always been a man's world." The CEOs and execs, men. The producers, men. The writers, mostly men. The A&R and marketing guys, men. Oh yeah, and the critics, can't forget about them...men. Find me a female artist or songwriter that you would consider stylistically similar to Springsteen or Prince and I will find you a female artist who will either be "prettied up and dumbed down" for the masses (and subsequently taken less seriously b/c she's now seen as a packaged product) or basically go ignored b/c MALE executives have already decided that she can't possibly sell. Also, heterosexual men are generally programmed/taught to believe that being into a female artist isn't the 'cool' thing to do regardless of her genre or subject matter, so at best you will get a female who is recognized for being as good as a guy (b/c you know, she can't just be good), but not ever really getting the sales or attention as the men she's on par with. That sh!t is by man's design. Good luck to any female who wants to be political (I mean, really political - sorry but Gaga doesn't really count) AND hugely commercially successful. Perfect example of how little weight this supposed lightweight theory holds with me is the uproar online about Loud being 'undeservingly' nominated for AOTY, but not one person questioning the equally pop and equally "lightweight" Doo-Wops & Hooligans even as Bruno's album was LESS critically acclaimed than Rihanna's. It's all in the way they're marketed. Bruno is the earnest crooner with songwriting chops and Rihanna is a cipher who doesn't make her own choices. The same applies not just with current artists like those two but throughout music history. A vast majority of Prince's work is actually just your typical love/sex/breakup/party subject matter, but because his marketing revolves around him being a prolific songwriter and musician, his status is elevated (I love Prince, I agree with this). Michael is another who is rightfully regarded as a genius of our times but when you really think about it, he was the epitome of pop, so if pop is nothing but fluff why would he not be seen as a lightweight right along with any other pop artist? Mariah on the other hand is rarely recognized for being the lead writer on virtually every song she's ever released other than her covers or for having production credits on a lot of her stuff, and if you did point it out then you'd probably suddenly see it get downplayed or even met with a dismissive, "oh...well, it's just pop music, it shouldn't be that hard to write anyway." Call me silly but I bet if Prince had penned Vision of Love it would be seen as another example of his writing prowess. But Mariah penned it...so it's banal, paint-by-numbers, lowest common denominator, "lightweight" pop, right? If you have a problem with the template that has been laid out for female success in the industry, then that is understandable b/c goodness knows the sexist slant that permeates pretty much every facet of mainstream perception irks the crap out of me too for various reasons. But don't come in here and get on some high horse about "no wonder men are so much more respected" like it's the women's fault that they are portrayed as only lightweight, lesser-than artists, or like that portrayal actually means that they are in fact lightweight, lesser-than artists. They're not, that is just what decades of marketing from men has been beating into our subconscious. But whatever, continue to tell yourself that women have contributed absolutely nothing to music and need a man's touch to write or sing a song that actually has meaning. /pissy
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like2throw
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Post by like2throw on Jan 27, 2012 2:01:43 GMT -5
lol were gonna have to agree to disagree. If you think the discographies of Mariah and Whitney hold up to Prince, Bruce and other colleagues then I guess there's no point even arguing right? Nothing I can do can refute your veiwpoint other than facts from other critics, which are also just opinions.... So now we're comparing discographies now? Tangent much? WHAT? ??? So image isn't art now? Dear, LORD. I didn't discredit them. I simply said those three are the most influential of the past 50 years. image has nothing to do with the art of creating the music, which was the point I was making.....theres been music before MTV you know lol were gonna have to agree to disagree. If you think the discographies of Mariah and Whitney hold up to Prince, Bruce and other colleagues then I guess there's no point even arguing right? Nothing I can do can refute your veiwpoint other than facts from other critics, which are also just opinions.... But its lightweight music, thats the whole point of it. Their songs are Lightweight, and they are considered the most influential, which in turns make them the measuring stick for other contemporary female artists, and in this case, the measuring stick which the new ones are judged by is low, because they dont aim high to begin with because of their influences. You have a strong enough voice like whitney and mariah, then you get stuck singing middle of the road ballads. Same with Madonna; when judging a female artist image comes before the actual art itself. edit: You said 50 years? So discredit Aretha, Etta James, Tina Turner and Janis Joplin...right...... Lightweight by whose definitions though? What exactly defines the difference between lightweight and meaningful? Again, this is your opinion. HG summed it all up in one sentence: "Music has always been a man's world." The CEOs and execs, men. The producers, men. The writers, mostly men. The A&R and marketing guys, men. Oh yeah, and the critics, can't forget about them...men. Find me a female artist or songwriter that you would consider stylistically similar to Springsteen or Prince and I will find you a female artist who will either be "prettied up and dumbed down" for the masses (and subsequently taken less seriously b/c she's now seen as a packaged product) or basically go ignored b/c MALE executives have already decided that she can't possibly sell. Also, heterosexual men are generally programmed/taught to believe that being into a female artist isn't the 'cool' thing to do regardless of her genre or subject matter, so at best you will get a female who is recognized for being as good as a guy (b/c you know, she can't just be good), but not ever really getting the sales or attention as the men she's on par with. That sh!t is by man's design. Good luck to any female who wants to be political (I mean, really political - sorry but Gaga doesn't really count) AND hugely commercially successful. Perfect example of how little weight this supposed lightweight theory holds with me is the uproar online about Loud being 'undeservingly' nominated for AOTY, but not one person questioning the equally pop and equally "lightweight" Doo-Wops & Hooligans even as Bruno's album was LESS critically acclaimed than Rihanna's. It's all in the way they're marketed. Bruno is the earnest crooner with songwriting chops and Rihanna is a cipher who doesn't make her own choices. The same applies not just with current artists like those two but throughout music history. A vast majority of Prince's work is actually just your typical love/sex/breakup/party subject matter, but because his marketing revolves around him being a prolific songwriter and musician, his status is elevated (I love Prince, I agree with this). Michael is another who is rightfully regarded as a genius of our times but when you really think about it, he was the epitome of pop, so if pop is nothing but fluff why would he not be seen as a lightweight right along with any other pop artist? Mariah on the other hand is rarely recognized for being the lead writer on virtually every song she's ever released other than her covers or for having production credits on a lot of her stuff, and if you did point it out then you'd probably suddenly see it get downplayed or even met with a dismissive, "oh...well, it's just pop music, it shouldn't be that hard to write anyway." Call me silly but I bet if Prince had penned Vision of Love it would be seen as another example of his writing prowess. But Mariah penned it...so it's banal, paint-by-numbers, lowest common denominator, "lightweight" pop, right? If you have a problem with the template that has been laid out for female success in the industry, then that is understandable b/c goodness knows the sexist slant that permeates pretty much every facet of mainstream perception irks the crap out of me too for various reasons. But don't come in here and get on some high horse about "no wonder men are so much more respected" like it's the women's fault that they are portrayed as only lightweight, lesser-than artists, or like that portrayal actually means that they are in fact lightweight, lesser-than artists. They're not, that is just what decades of marketing from men has been beating into our subconscious. But whatever, continue to tell yourself that women have contributed absolutely nothing to music and need a man's touch to write or sing a song that actually has meaning. /pissy engaging response, I enjoyed the read, and atleast you understood the point i was trying to make. Yea it just irks me a lil bit, their are examples of female artists that are praised to high ends, two notable ones being Bjork and Pj Harvey, but while they garner high acclaim, they dont have the popularity on their side. Like stated above, music is a mans world and fortunately, we have been slowly turning away from that standpoint atleast.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 9:36:23 GMT -5
Call me a pessimist, I guess, but I don't know that I believe we have tbh. I won't go into any artist's image or public perception about them; as you said, that is not really the point and sometimes serves more as a distraction. This is why I said Gaga 'doesn't count,' b/c she has never sung anything of more major consequence than "love yourself as you are, you were born this way." Obviously she's a staunch supporter of gay rights, but if you took away her image and persona the songs could apply to anyone's situation. Anyway, my point of that being that when you just boil it down to the music and how it is regarded by critics, media, and the public in general, I don't think there has been any real progression at all.
This brings to mind another reason why I took issue with the term 'lightweight' - I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. Are you just talking about a style of singing? Subject matter in songs? The way the artist is marketed? The term could mean a few different things, and while I think I'd have a bone to pick with it no matter which definition you're using I can't exactly tell you which bone I have to pick without knowing what exactly I'm arguing against.
FWIW I immediately took it to regard subject matter, which if that is the case, more "serious" or political subject matter simply is not going to be regarded as marketable at this time from a male or a female; that is simply in the nature of what is popular these days. If it's merely a reference to one's chosen style of singing or production then I think that puts an unfair bias on pop artists from the get-go simply for choosing to like a style that others have deigned unworthy of critical praise, so then we're probably dealing with genre bias (also a pet peeve of mine) just as much as we are gender bias. And marketing, well I pretty much addressed that in my rant above.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 22:12:54 GMT -5
Out of the 2nd batch of the younger generation (i.e. bar Beyonce and Britney Spears), I think it will just be Lady Gaga and Rihanna. I know Carrie Underwood's sales are amazing but I don't really see how she would make the list tb h.. Kelly Clarkson I could more see but even that seems a bit questionable because of her current status. ??? It's 100 women, and Kelly and Carrie have been a couple of the biggest stars in the industry since their debuts. I'd be shocked if they weren't on the list. I can't say that they'll have incredibly high positions, but I certainly doubt that they'll be left off.
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like2throw
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Post by like2throw on Jan 27, 2012 23:36:11 GMT -5
Out of the 2nd batch of the younger generation (i.e. bar Beyonce and Britney Spears), I think it will just be Lady Gaga and Rihanna. I know Carrie Underwood's sales are amazing but I don't really see how she would make the list tb h.. Kelly Clarkson I could more see but even that seems a bit questionable because of her current status. ??? It's 100 women, and Kelly and Carrie have been a couple of the biggest stars in the industry since their debuts. I'd be shocked if they weren't on the list. I can't say that they'll have incredibly high positions, but I certainly doubt that they'll be left off. 100 positions to fill, from 90-00s? we may see the likes of Keri Hilson and Nicole Scherzinger on the list.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jan 28, 2012 9:43:02 GMT -5
Oh yah- but, that's only if voters didn't keep in mind the pre-1990 work for some of the major legends (i.e. the women who placed highly on the last list).
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JamaicaFunk²
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Post by JamaicaFunk² on Jan 28, 2012 14:35:45 GMT -5
I suppose Swift's album of the year win will secure her a decent showing. Let's not forget the Dixie Chicks. I would think they'd be just about guaranteed a top 10 ranking.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jan 28, 2012 14:41:46 GMT -5
We still don't know for sure how this list was compiled, correct? To keep the methodology somewhat uniform, it should have been compiled in the same manner as the 100 Artists and the initial Women list
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Post by neverduplicated on Jan 29, 2012 3:08:19 GMT -5
Acts I hope to see high on this list:
-Mariah Carey -Sarah McLachlan -Bjork -Dixie Chicks -Sheryl Crow -Shakira -Taylor Swift -Alicia Keys -Gwen Stefani -Pink -TLC
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Jan 30, 2012 21:44:10 GMT -5
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on Jan 30, 2012 21:52:07 GMT -5
Just in case it is fan voted, I did my part!
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Jan 30, 2012 22:00:35 GMT -5
The finalists for the list then are:
Alicia Keys Beyonce Danity Kane Eve Jennifer Hudson Jill Scott Jordin Sparks Macy Gray Missy Elliott Miranda Lambert Nicki Minaj Amy Lee Bjork Colbie Caillat Florence Welch Grace Potter Gwen Stefani Haley Williams Hilary Scott Meg White Adele Amy Winehouse Avril Lavigne Britney Spears Carrie Underwood Christina Perri Ciara Demi Lovato Dido Dixie Chicks Duffy Faith Hill Fantasia Feist Fergie Glee Cast Ladies Ingrid Michelson Jennifer Lopez Katy Perry Ke$ha Lady GaGa Leona Lewis Lily Allen M.I.A. Mandy Moore Michelle Branch Miley Cyrus Natasha Bedingfield Nelly Furtado Norah Jones Pussycat Dolls Regina Spektor Rihanna Robyn Sara Bareilles Shakira Jennifer Nettles Taylor Swift Vanessa Carlton Aaliyah Ashanti Brandy Destiny's Child Erykah Badu Faith Evans Lil Kim Mary J. Blige Monica SWV TLC Toni Braxton Celine Dion Christina Aguilera Enya Fiona Apple Jessica Simpson Kylie Minogue LeAnn Rimes Mariah Carey P!nk Sade Adu Sarah MacLachlan Shania Twain Spice Girls Tori Amos Wilson Phillips Alanis Morrissette The Corrs (There's a male sibling in there too) Courtney Love Dolores O'Riordan Indigo Girls Jewel k.d. lang Kim Gordon Liz Phair Melissa Etheridge Natalie Merchant P.J Harvey Sheryl Crow Shirley Manson Annie Lennox Kim Deal Cher En Vogue Gloria Estefan Janet Jackson Madonna Selena Sinead O'Connor Whitney Houston Queen Latifah Salt N Pepa
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Jan 30, 2012 22:14:48 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 22:20:39 GMT -5
That list is a joke. LMAO. Who came up with those??
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Post by Push The Button on Jan 30, 2012 22:49:01 GMT -5
How is it fan voted if the show airs in two weeks and people have already done their commentaries?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 22:59:16 GMT -5
How is it fan voted if the show airs in two weeks and people have already done their commentaries? Because people voting can only choose from the list of artists. Then VH1 is ranking them based on votes. So it doesn't really matter what people said about the artists. They just need to put the commentary in rank order.
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bigb0882
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Post by bigb0882 on Jan 30, 2012 23:13:17 GMT -5
So the Glee Cast Ladies are better than Kelly Clarkson? You are kidding me! Minaj is brand new and I love her but she has done more in one year than Kelly has done in 10? I am only focusing on the lack of Kelly's name but I am sure I can go through that list and find other glaring omissions. What a joke, I thought it was going to be serious. It is fan voted so I suppose that explains everything.
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Jan 30, 2012 23:16:03 GMT -5
So the Glee Cast Ladies are better than Kelly Clarkson? You are kidding me! Kelly Clarkson is in there. I typed the finalists list from memory so there are a couple of ladies I accidentally left off. Look at the images after the written long list.
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Post by Fat Ass Kelly Price on Jan 30, 2012 23:31:34 GMT -5
Time to enlist the Lovatics to get Demi on this list.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jan 31, 2012 0:35:29 GMT -5
The site voting is not related to the actual ranked list. It's just something for site visitors to vote on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 13:36:33 GMT -5
I know these lists don't mean anything but it still makes me happy to see Florence on there
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Feb 10, 2012 15:14:16 GMT -5
All next week, VH1 will be counting down a list of the 100 Greatest Women In Music. Each weeknight at 10 p.m. ET/PT beginning on Monday, February 13, a new hour-long episode of The Greatest will air on VH1, each show focusing in on the merits of the best female artists of the last 20 years and change. As a precursor to the next week’s reveal, we thought that we’d kick off the discussion by revealing this list of 14 women who ALMOST made the list. They’re all terrific artists in their own right, which just goes to show how amazing the full list is going to be next week. This list of the Almost Greatest goes, as follows (in alphabetical order, natch):
Christina Perri, Ciara, The Corrs, The Cranberries, Danity Kane, Duffy, Enya, Jessica Simpson, Lily Allen, Michelle Branch, Selena, Sinead O’Connor, Sugarland, and Vanessa Carlton.
To find out who DID make the list, be sure to watch VH1′s 100 Greatest Women in Music special all next week on VH1!
By the way, I'm still surprised the list is kept under wraps! The general artists list was revealed a week before the episodes aired (bar the top 5).
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Post by ListenToItTwice on Feb 10, 2012 15:17:48 GMT -5
Please please please can regina spektor end up on this list! :O
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