The state of R&B

[Deleted]

I'm glad this thread exists so y'all can talk about it, i have been thinking these things for a while now. Maybe now you will understand why i stan hard for that BIG MOMENT of Beyonce recently. Beyonce the great black hope? Yessir. I'm hoping this will be a turning point.

[allow that]

Urban radio is part of the problem too, imo. They've become awful at breaking new R&B acts, which in turn leads to labels investing less in R&B acts, which in turn leads to less crossover material. A decade ago, most of the songs in the top ten at Urban were pop hits. Looking at the current top ten, I doubt many of those songs could have crossed over even if pop radio today followed the 2004 pattern. "My Hitta" a pop hit? The main R&B hits this year such as "V.S.O.P." or "It Won't Stop" don't sound like material that pop would embrace in any period. There seems to be little interest among urban radio to find this decade's Alicia Keys or Usher, you know, big acts with long-term star qualities.

[Deleted]

I definitely agree with Adam. The "exclusivity" of the format, to the point that it almost seems a little too niche, really hasn't done it any favors.

Jan 5, 2014 7:01:45 GMT -5 #LisaRinna said:

Jan 2, 2014 19:51:14 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

Top selling album and single of the year are R&B... by white men.

You know what upsets me the most about this though? JT having the biggest "R&B Album" of the year. Was his album R&B though?
I listened to it and it was a Pop record just like all of his stuff. So now because he had a few influences and a few tweaks and features all of a sudden he's put out a R&B record. PLEASE!

If JT's album was a pop album, so is Beyoncé's.

[allow that]

JT's album is R&B. It's just shit R&B.

[#LisaRinna]

Jan 5, 2014 14:48:13 GMT -5 @touch said:

If JT's album was a pop album, so is Beyoncé's.

Chile.. where are the songs like 'Rocket', 'No Angel', 'Drunk In Love', 'Jealous', 'Blow', 'Partition', 'Mine' on JT's album? So because Beyoncé has a couple of Pop ballads on her album it is Pop now? LOL

[Gold Soundz]

Jan 5, 2014 11:35:33 GMT -5 allow that said:

Urban radio is part of the problem too, imo. They've become awful at breaking new R&B acts, which in turn leads to labels investing less in R&B acts, which in turn leads to less crossover material. A decade ago, most of the songs in the top ten at Urban were pop hits. Looking at the current top ten, I doubt many of those songs could have crossed over even if pop radio today followed the 2004 pattern. "My Hitta" a pop hit? The main R&B hits this year such as "V.S.O.P." or "It Won't Stop" don't sound like material that pop would embrace in any period. There seems to be little interest among urban radio to find this decade's Alicia Keys or Usher, you know, big acts with long-term star qualities.

Like (x10). They're a huge part of the problem. They'll send "Royals" top 5, but didn't touch "Beautiful," and "Primetime" barely cracked top 30. As much as I dislike Kanye these days, I can't believe "Bound 2" (the one song that sounds like something that could have been on his last album or his first three) is struggling. All three would've crossed over (obviously the first) back in 2004. It would be one thing if the aforementioned songs were bad, but they aren't. 

Furthermore, there are only four black females singing more than a hook in a song in the entire Top 50.  Sometimes I'll click 7-day on Urban and think I accidentally clicked CHR/Rhythmic. Why can't Janelle get a hit? Was Amel Larrieux too old? 

Also, where is Kelela? Where is SZA? Where is Tenashe? Where is Cassie? Hell, where is Solange (who I despised until she started working with good producers more recently)? All of these girls are doing minimal electro-R&B so much better than Lorde.  

As far as Pop goes, it looks like Beyonce isn't even going to get more than a medium sized hit with the most whitewashed song on her album. I think it will be interesting to see how her subsequent singles perform (I still don't see "Blow" doing well on Pop). With all that hype she had coming off this album, I think "Drunk In Love" would have received just as many spins as "X.O.", so it's too bad she went the predictable route first like she did at the start of the 4 era. "Drunk In Love" isn't that far off sonically from something like "Dark Horse." If she could score a top 10 Pop hit with "Drunk," there could be a chance that hot s**t like "Partition" could actually do some triple format crossover damage.

Jan 5, 2014 14:58:49 GMT -5 allow that said:

JT's album is R&B. It's just s**t R&B.

Especially the second one.

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 15:40:02 GMT -5 #LisaRinna said:

Jan 5, 2014 14:48:13 GMT -5 @touch said:

If JT's album was a pop album, so is Beyoncé's.

Chile.. where are the songs like 'Rocket', 'No Angel', 'Drunk In Love', 'Jealous', 'Blow', 'Partition', 'Mine' on JT's album? So because Beyoncé has a couple of Pop ballads on her album it is Pop now? LOL

No, it wasn't shade at Bey or even JT. I hate both of them, frankly; but I feel like the production value on both is similar. Both have a lot of influence rooted in R&B and in Pop. They're both bridging the genres, even if Bey did it slightly better. Both records have their purist R&B moments for sure, but just as much as they do pop.

It really shouldn't matter though, because this is what I'm talking about. There shouldn't be this big debate or sense of exclusivity amongst the format.

[allow that]

Jan 5, 2014 15:40:02 GMT -5 #LisaRinna said:

Jan 5, 2014 14:48:13 GMT -5 @touch said:

If JT's album was a pop album, so is Beyoncé's.

Chile.. where are the songs like 'Rocket', 'No Angel', 'Drunk In Love', 'Jealous', 'Blow', 'Partition', 'Mine' on JT's album? So because Beyoncé has a couple of Pop ballads on her album it is Pop now? LOL

Mario, ascolta! There aren't songs like that on Justin's album because, quite frankly, his album is stale and watered down. It's still R&B though, which is Matt's point (it's not a comparison of quality). But that's kind of the issue... why is pop radio touching Justin's R&B (and Robin's) but nothing else (Drake's lead single aside, which thankfully, even they realized was too good to deny). The obvious answer is Justin's star power, since lbr media darlings can get away with shit material much more easily than new acts or has-beens alike. But if ANYONE can outdo Justin in the area of hype and star power, it's Beyonce. So I think all eyes are on her because if she struggles with catchy material, massive album sales (to be fair single sales are poor so far), and unprecedented hype then it kind of DOES add evidence to the white privilege argument.

Jan 5, 2014 15:41:15 GMT -5 Gold Soundz said:

Furthermore, there are only four black females singing more than a hook in a song in the entire Top 50.  Sometimes I'll click 7-day on Urban and think I accidentally clicked CHR/Rhythmic. Why can't Janelle get a hit? Was Amel Larrieux too old? 

Neo-soul or alt-R&B acts always had to push a little harder for mainstream urban airplay, even in the 90's R&B hey day, so I can understand the Janelle situation a little but "Primetime" doesn't even sound alt to me. Four females? Dear Lorde!

With all that hype she had coming off this album, I think "Drunk In Love" would have received just as many spins as "X.O.", so it's too bad she went the predictable route first like she did at the start of the 4 era. "Drunk In Love" isn't that far off sonically from something like "Dark Horse." If she could score a top 10 Pop hit with "Drunk," there could be a chance that hot s**t like "Partition" could actually do some triple format crossover damage.

What differentiates the accessibility of "Dark Horse" from "Drunk In Love" is lyrics, imo. I feel like both are two of the freshest songs on radio right now so this is no shade to Katy (for ONCE), but "Dark Horse" has typical basic white girl catchphrases such as "mark my words" and "like a bird" that any 6th grader can sing along with. Beyonce's song would send the flyover kiddies to urbandictionary.com just to figure out what she's singing about. Sonically, yes, it's accessible to everyone imo.

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

Jan 5, 2014 14:58:49 GMT -5 allow that said:

JT's album is R&B. It's just s**t R&B.

It is kind of shitty R&B. No doubt about it.

[#LisaRinna]

Jan 5, 2014 16:07:37 GMT -5 allow that said:

Jan 5, 2014 15:40:02 GMT -5 #LisaRinna said:

Chile.. where are the songs like 'Rocket', 'No Angel', 'Drunk In Love', 'Jealous', 'Blow', 'Partition', 'Mine' on JT's album? So because Beyoncé has a couple of Pop ballads on her album it is Pop now? LOL

Mario, ascolta! There aren't songs like that on Justin's album because, quite frankly, his album is stale and watered down. It's still R&B though, which is Matt's point (it's not a comparison of quality). But that's kind of the issue... why is pop radio touching Justin's R&B (and Robin's) but nothing else (Drake's lead single aside, which thankfully, even they realized was too good to deny). The obvious answer is Justin's star power, since lbr media darlings can get away with s**t material much more easily than new acts or has-beens alike. But if ANYONE can outdo Justin in the area of hype and star power, it's Beyonce. So I think all eyes are on her because if she struggles with catchy material, massive album sales (to be fair single sales are poor so far), and unprecedented hype then it kind of DOES add evidence to the white privilege argument.

I've listened to both albums and I just don't see it. 20/20 is not a R&B record. It's a Pop-washed (white and phony) attempt at R&B and a fail through and through.
The white privilege issue is a bigger issue within itself, it has to do with a lot more than Bey and Justin. I agree with everything that's been said about it in this thread. And as a white man I'm disgusted by it too.

As much as @touch wants to tell me Beyoncé's album is Pop, I provided examples for him to prove that it isn't. Now I need examples to prove that JT's album is R&B.

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

Minstrel music...all the way to the bank.

[allow that]

Jan 5, 2014 16:19:27 GMT -5 #LisaRinna said:

The white privilege issue is a bigger issue within itself, it has to do with a lot more than Bey and Justin.

Well yes but every issue has its front runner case studies.

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 16:19:27 GMT -5 #LisaRinna said:

As much as @touch wants to tell me Beyoncé's album is Pop...

And as much as you'd like to think that's what I'm trying to tell you, it isn't. Re-read my post. ;)

[#LisaRinna]

Jan 5, 2014 16:34:26 GMT -5 @touch said:

Jan 5, 2014 16:19:27 GMT -5 #LisaRinna said:

As much as @touch wants to tell me Beyoncé's album is Pop...

And as much as you'd like to think that's what I'm trying to tell you, it isn't. Re-read my post. ;)

Jan 5, 2014 14:48:13 GMT -5 @touch said:

If JT's album was a pop album, so is Beyoncé's.

??? Maybe I'm dumb..

[Deleted]

That doesn't mean Beyonce's is a pop album. That just means it sounds very similar to Justin's to me. 

[allow that]

He's not saying that Beyonce's album is pop. He's saying that Justin's is R&B.

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 16:46:43 GMT -5 allow that said:

He's not saying that Beyonce's album is pop. He's saying that Justin's is R&B.

I'm actually saying they're a little bit of both technically, but apparently my reply earlier explaining it got totally bypassed. I'd go ahead and put them both in the "R&B" category though.

[Deleted]

The way I see both album is that Justin's is deep rooted in r&b but is borderline to me with one foot in both genres, however Beyonce is fully a urban album. I think thats probably why beyonce album is so much better it knew where it was going 100% and wasnt too worried about having some sort of crossover appeal that and it had better songs, whatever.

[Envoirment]

I would say Justin's is a pop/R&B infusion and Beyoncé's is mainly R&B with a splash of pop.

[allow that]

May I suggest a spin off topic if we still want to discuss Justin vs. Beyonce's genre? We're getting sidetracked by it here

[#LisaRinna]

Okay it's clear to me now, @touch

[Glove Slap]

This is a very interesting discussion and subject, and I'd like to add my 2 cents.

First, as far as there being more "party" songs on the radio, that's not new. When rock n roll was first created, it was songs about sex and dancing. However, that was somewhat veiled, which was needed because the era was much more conservative. Regardless of where popular music heads in the future, I don't think that lyrics are going to become less blunt and explicit. Now, that doesn't mean that they will be vulgar all the time, but they won't revert to the way they were 50 years ago, and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of what genre is going to be dominant in an era, there will always be party hits, that's part of youth culture, which is what pop music is aimed towards.

Now as for the state of "R&B"...

I've read a lot of talk about album sellers, download sellers, audience retention, etc. In this scale, we are not talking simply about "R&B" as a style of music, we are talking about Black Pop. Music that draws from Black Culture, but that is intended to become popular. This is nothing new, and neither is the controversy that surrounds it as far as gentrification and "whitening" is concerned, but a lot of that discussion really stays in the period, while the music itself goes to influence what comes next. Motown is praised today and has been for decades, but it was consciously crafted by Berry Gordy to appeal to Blacks & Whites (along with those etiquette classes that the artists had to take) and was heavily criticized for selling out soul for profit. People praise Whitney Houston today, but for almost a decade she was heavily criticized for being whitewashed and incredibly boring when she first came out. Her entire 3rd album campaign was constructed to try to remedy this, and even that got criticism for being insincere. It wasn't until the period of The Bodyguard and Waiting To Exhale that Whitney, the R&B legend, really started to take hold. It's also not coincidental that this was when a lot of people who cited her as an influence, such as Toni Braxton, Mariah Carey, Brandy, etc. found crossover success of their own. Prince was also heavily criticized for pandering to a White Rock audience in the 80s, but that died down and the material he produced is seen as incredibly influential in multiple genres.

One thing that has to be kept in mind is that Black Pop has always been created with a conscious commercial appeal. Yes, there have been great musicians, songwriters, singers, etc., but that is all secondary to the fact that this music had a goal to connect with a broad enough audience to make a profit. What people here are referring to as "real R&B" from the 90s was the Black Pop of its time. Crossover success was always in the plan.

Because Black Pop is born out of Black Culture, which is a minority culture and one that generations have struggled to keep alive, there is a lot of pride in that, which there should be. However, this also leads to a slanted view of how the popularity of music genres goes. It is interesting in particular with Black Pop because despite the history behind it, commercial crossover success has always been a goal. This goes into the Motown artists wanting out of Detroit to hip hop artists wanting to get out of the backgrounds they were born into. The music is also meant to be a means to an end, and not "just music" (which is how it differs from the White alternatives because those usually come from individuals with a more comfortable background). When you are making music to crossover, you have to find a way to appeal to the majority, which happens to be White. Now, maintaining enough of your integrity and still getting this crossover success is a balance that has gone back and forth and will continue to do so.

Back to the point about the popularity of music genres, different genres fluctuate through different styles of popularity. Black Pop was always present as a popular force, however it was never as completely monolithic as it was in the mid-00s. If you look at interviews from that period, you have people like Mary J. Blige talking about how Urban culture and Hip-Hop Music was at the forefront now and how Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears were trying to incorporate with such pride because for the first time, that culture which had struggled and fought up to that point was at the forefront, so there was massive pride for the people who made that type of music to begin with. However, this pride kinda blocked the fact that it wasn't always going to be that way, because it was never that way with any other genre before or since that has reached that kinda level of ubiquity. When it finally started to happen, I think there was a bit of shock the extent of which Black Pop was pushed back, but you have to take into account how omnipresent it was at its peak. From that kinda peak, the eventual decline is also going to have quite a significant nadir as far as pop exposure is concerned. The people throwing around doomsday predictions were overreacting, as we have seen with the influence of that music eventually coming back.

Another point about contemporary music is this: it's supposed to be contemporary, as in the present at the point of release. Contemporary music is also linked to youth culture and aimed towards youth culture. The discussion about people like Mariah Carey in the contemporary sense and what they can do to change music/bring back R&B is largely irrelevant because they are not contemporary. You can talk all about great voices, great singing, great songs, etc. but here are the facts: Mariah Carey entered the music business a quarter century ago (she was signed in late 1988 and worked on her debut throughout 1989), she is not contemporary. People who grew up listening to her are not the target anymore. If you want to put this in perspective, the kids who will be entering high school this year were born in 2000, the people entering college in 1996. Mariah Carey is an artist of a past generation, one that isn't the center of youth culture anymore. I feel that whenever people start talking about how "good/better" things used to be in whatever era, be it 90s/80s/70s, etc., they're lamenting the passing of their youth more than anything else. Either way, it's a fact that you cannot change.

Every generation has and wants its own artists and popular culture. The ones that forge a path to whatever comes next are the young acts such as Kendrick Lamar, Frank Ocean, etc., people who are in touch with youth culture, which gives them the ability to reach that audience that contemporary popular music is made to reach. This is not to say that an older audience is not viable, that is absolutely not the case. However, as far as what is considered to be at the forefront of popular music is dictated by a young audience. I mean, how many people really followed Michael Bolton and Celine Dion musically? They were explicitly aimed at an older audience, found colossal success, but music genres didn't shift because of them (unless you consider that theory that ballads were blacklisted because of MHWGO being so big, but even then that's more about the scale of the song and the movie phenomenon than the artist).

I don't think electronic influences are going anywhere. Despite the backburner that a lot of Urban music was placed on for the past 5 years or so, what we have witnessed overall is astounding. At long last, dance and electronic music has finally established itself as a major cornerstone in popular music in general. It's quite similar to what happened with Hip-Hop, which was seen as a trend and specialty music before it's influence became very widespread throughout music in general in the 90s and 00s. Unlike with prior periods where dance music was popular like with Disco and the dance crossovers of the 90s, there's no longer a label that comes with it like there used to be with it being Black/Gay/Euro, etc. for ages. When the alternative revolution happened in the early 90s, electronic production was really pushed back after the 80s and got heavily tied to that period. There is a swing back to more organic sounds now, which was going to happen anyway, but the name of electronic music isn't being tarnished. The dance songs like the Red One productions sound dated already yes, but Dance culture has embedded itself in the mainstream more than ever and that doesn't seem to be getting damaged. I think that DJs achieving crossover success as lead artists like David Guetta, Zedd & Calvin has really played a huge part in this, as well as the expansion of electronic music festivals. It's not seen as a part of a particular group or era, it's there squarely in front of everyone, like how it happened with Hip-Hop.

There has also been a gradual fusion of Electronic music and Black Pop/R&B that has happened. Kanye West was the first to take notice of this, and 808s & Heartbreak was extremely influential in this. If you listen to Drake, Kendrick, Frank Ocean, Beyonce's last 2 albums, they really use that as a major foundation in their blueprints. Stuff like Love On Top and Suit & Tie aren't the future of contemporary Black Pop/R&B because they lean heavily retro, which is always more of a trend than a direction that people follow, but it does push more traditional soul elements into the mix, and those are going to be incorporated into what's coming next. The key here is to find the mixture which can crossover, and that will happen in due time, because there are people who want this to happen and there are many many glaring signs right now that it is very possible. As huge as Blurred Lines was, it was also still a retro track that made multiple explicit points to past popular music. I consider Adele to be her own thing. Her music is not R&B, or that R&B influenced. Vocals that are considered soulful don't automatically mean R&B. The music draws more from soft rock than anything else. I think she helped catalyze more organic sounds into popularity again, but it wasn't R&B.

On the whole, I think that by the end of this year (2014), we are going to start seeing the emergence of R&B-styled crossovers that actually sound that they were made for the current age. They will be by Black artists and they will crossover. They might not achieve massive success extremely soon, but the seeds are there and they will start to grow into something very viable. R&B music will go on and so will Black Pop, but it will be remodeled for the times. If you're waiting for 1995 to come back, just go to Spotify and make a playlist, because that's all you're getting. Young people aren't calling for a new Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, or Mariah Carey. They all already happened a long time ago for different generations. The one now will have ones for their own.

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

Jan 5, 2014 17:37:04 GMT -5 Glove Slap said:

This is a very interesting discussion and subject, and I'd like to add my 2 cents.

First, as far as there being more "party" songs on the radio, that's not new. When rock n roll was first created, it was songs about sex and dancing. However, that was somewhat veiled, which was needed because the era was much more conservative. Regardless of where popular music heads in the future, I don't think that lyrics are going to become less blunt and explicit. Now, that doesn't mean that they will be vulgar all the time, but they won't revert to the way they were 50 years ago, and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of what genre is going to be dominant in an era, there will always be party hits, that's part of youth culture, which is what pop music is aimed towards.

Now as for the state of "R&B"...

I've read a lot of talk about album sellers, download sellers, audience retention, etc. In this scale, we are not talking simply about "R&B" as a style of music, we are talking about Black Pop. Music that draws from Black Culture, but that is intended to become popular. This is nothing new, and neither is the controversy that surrounds it as far as gentrification and "whitening" is concerned, but a lot of that discussion really stays in the period, while the music itself goes to influence what comes next. Motown is praised today and has been for decades, but it was consciously crafted by Berry Gordy to appeal to Blacks & Whites (along with those etiquette classes that the artists had to take) and was heavily criticized for selling out soul for profit. People praise Whitney Houston today, but for almost a decade she was heavily criticized for being whitewashed and incredibly boring when she first came out. Her entire 3rd album campaign was constructed to try to remedy this, and even that got criticism for being insincere. It wasn't until the period of The Bodyguard and Waiting To Exhale that Whitney, the R&B legend, really started to take hold. It's also not coincidental that this was when a lot of people who cited her as an influence, such as Toni Braxton, Mariah Carey, Brandy, etc. found crossover success of their own. Prince was also heavily criticized for pandering to a White Rock audience in the 80s, but that died down and the material he produced is seen as incredibly influential in multiple gneres.

One thing that has to be kept in mind is that Black Pop has always been created with a conscious commercial appeal. Yes, there have been great musicians, songwriters, singers, etc., but that is all secondary to the fact that this music had a goal to connect with a broad enough audience to make a profit. What people here are referring to as "real R&B" from the 90s was the Black Pop of its time. Crossover success was always in the plan.

Because Black Pop is born out of Black Culture, which is a minority culture and one that generations have struggled to keep alive, there is a lot of pride in that, which there should be. However, this also leads to a slanted view of how the popularity of music genres goes. It is interesting in particular with Black Pop because despite the history behind it, commercial crossover success has always been a goal. This goes into the Motown artists wanting out of Detroit to hip hop artists wanting to get out of the backgrounds they were born into. The music is also meant to be a means to an end, and not "just music" (which is how it differs from the White alternatives because those usually come from individuals with a more comfortable background). When you are making music to crossover, you have to find a way to appeal to the majority, which happens to be White. Now, maintaining enough of your integrity and still getting this crossover success is a balance that has gone back and forth and will continue to do so.

Back to the point about the popularity of music genres, different genres fluctuate through different styles of popularity. Black Pop was always present as a popular force, however it was never as completely monolithic as it was in the mid-00s. If you look at interviews from that period, you have people like Mary J. Blige talking about how Urban culture and Hip-Hop Music was at the forefront now and how Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears were trying to incorporate with such pride because for the first time, that culture which had struggled and fought up to that point was at the forefront, so there was massive pride for the people who made that type of music to begin with. However, this pride kinda blocked the fact that it wasn't always going to be that way, because it was never that way with any other genre before or since that has reached that kinda level of ubiquity. When it finally started to happen, I think there was a bit of shock the extent of which Black Pop was pushed back, but you have to take into account how omnipresent it was at its peak. From that kinda peak, the eventual decline is also going to have quite a significant nadir as far as pop exposure is concerned. The people throwing around doomsday predictions were overreacting, as we have seen with the influence of that music eventually coming back.

Another point about contemporary music is this: it's supposed to be contemporary, as in the present at the point of release. Contemporary music is also linked to youth culture and aimed towards youth culture. The discussion about people like Mariah Carey in the contemporary sense and what they can do to change music/bring back R&B is largely irrelevant because they are not contemporary. You can talk all about great voices, great singing, great songs, etc. but here are the facts: Mariah Carey entered the music business a quarter century ago (she was signed in late 1988 and worked on her debut throughout 1989), she is not contemporary. People who grew up listening to her are not the target anymore. If you want to put this in perspective, the kids who will be entering high school this year were born in 2000, the people entering college in 1996. Mariah Carey is an artist of a past generation, one that isn't the center of youth culture anymore. I feel that whenever people start talking about how "good/better" things used to be in whatever era, be it 90s/80s/70s, etc., they're lamenting the passing of their youth more than anything else. Either way, it's a fact that you cannot change.

Every generation has and wants its own artists and popular culture. The ones that forge a path to whatever comes next are the young acts such as Kendrick Lamar, Frank Ocean, etc., people who are in touch with youth culture, which gives them the ability to reach that audience that contemporary popular music is made to reach. This is not to say that an older audience is not viable, that is absolutely not the case. However, as far as what is considered to be at the forefront of popular music is dictated by a young audience. I mean, how many people really followed Michael Bolton and Celine Dion musically? They were explicitly aimed at an older audience, found colossal success, but music genres didn't shift because of them (unless you consider that theory that ballads were blacklisted because of MHWGO being so big, but even then that's more about the scale of the song and the movie phenomenon than the artist).

I don't think electronic influences are going anywhere. Despite the backburner that a lot of Urban music was placed on for the past 5 years or so, what we have witnessed overall is astounding. At long last, dance and electronic music has finally established itself as a major cornerstone in popular music in general. It's quite similar to what happened with Hip-Hop, which was seen as a trend and specialty music before it's influence became very widespread throughout music in general in the 90s and 00s. Unlike with prior periods where dance music was popular like with Disco and the dance crossovers of the 90s, there's no longer a label that comes with it like there used to be with it being Black/Gay/Euro, etc. for ages. When the alternative revolution happened in the early 90s, electronic production was really pushed back after the 80s and got heavily tied to that period. There is a swing back to more organic sounds now, which was going to happen anyway, but the name of electronic music isn't being tarnished. The dance songs like the Red One productions sound dated already yes, but Dance culture has embedded itself in the mainstream more than ever and that doesn't seem to be getting damaged. I think that DJs achieving crossover success as lead artists like David Guetta, Zedd & Calvin has really played a huge part in this, as well as the expansion of electronic music festivals. It's not seen as a part of a particular group or era, it's there squarely in front of everyone, like how it happened with Hip-Hop.

There has also been a gradual fusion of Electronic music and Black Pop/R&B that has happened. Kanye West was the first to take notice of this, and 808s & Heartbreak was extremely influential in this. If you listen to Drake, Kendrick, Frank Ocean, Beyonce's last 2 albums, they really use that as a major foundation in their blueprints. Stuff like Love On Top and Suit & Tie aren't the future of contemporary Black Pop/R&B because they lean heavily retro, which is always more of a trend than a direction that people follow, but it does push more traditional soul elements into the mix, and those are going to be incorporated into what's coming next. The key here is to find the mixture which can crossover, and that will happen in due time, because there are people who want this to happen and there are many many glaring signs right now that it is very possible. As huge as Blurred Lines was, it was also still a retro track that made multiple explicit points to past popular music. I consider Adele to be her own thing. Her music is not R&B, or that R&B influenced. Vocals that are considered soulful don't automatically mean R&B. The music draws more from soft rock than anything else. I think she helped catalyze more organic sounds into popularity again, but it wasn't R&B.

On the whole, I think that by the end of this year (2014), we are going to start seeing the emergence of R&B-styled crossovers that actually sound that they were made for the current age. They will be by Black artists and they will crossover. They might not achieve massive success extremely soon, but the seeds are there and they will start to grow into something very viable. R&B music will go on and so will Black Pop, but it will be remodeled for the times. If you're waiting for 1995 to come back, just go to Spotify and make a playlist, because that's all you're getting. Young people aren't calling for a new Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, or Mariah Carey. They all already happened a long time ago for different generations. The one now will have ones for their own.

This was very thorough and well written. Bravo!

[Deleted]

Color Blind: No African-American Artists Had a No. 1 Hit in 2013

Hip-hop stars Beyonce, Jay Z and Kanye West may have the power to turn everything they touch into gold but not when it comes to scoring a huge pop hit in 2013. In fact, they and other African-American artists did not have a single No. 1 hit on the Billboard Hot 100 charts in all of last year.

According to writer Chris Molanphy, who surveys the pop charts, in a piece for Slate, this is the first time this had happened in the Billboard chart ‘s 55 years. It represents a huge contrast to 10 years ago when a person of a color recorded every chart-topping hit. Rather, African-American artists were featured on other artists’ songs last year, such as Rihanna on Eminem’s “The Monster” and T.I. and Pharrell on Robin Thicke’s inescapable summer hit “Blurred Lines.”

In a similar role reversal, Molanphy also cited that white artists topped the No. 1 spot on the R&B/Hip-Hop chart in 44 out of the 52 weeks last year.

The color omission also applied to this year’s recent inductees into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, in which there is not one living African-American artist among them — E Street Band sax player Clarence Clemmons will be posthumously inducted.

As for why this is happening, Molanphy wrote: “Music fans are playing out an unironic version of Stephen Colbert’s joke about not seeing color…and yet somehow, when the data is compiled about what we’re all buying and streaming, the Timberlakes and Matherses and Macklemores keep winding up atop the stack, ahead of the Miguels and J. Coles.”

entertainment.time.com/2014/01/10/color-blind-no-african-american-artists-had-a-no-1-hit-in-2013/#ixzz2qCy04xpG

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

Jan 12, 2014 12:57:22 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

Color Blind: No African-American Artists Had a No. 1 Hit in 2013

Hip-hop stars Beyonce, Jay Z and Kanye West may have the power to turn everything they touch into gold but not when it comes to scoring a huge pop hit in 2013. In fact, they and other African-American artists did not have a single No. 1 hit on the Billboard Hot 100 charts in all of last year.

According to writer Chris Molanphy, who surveys the pop charts, in a piece for Slate, this is the first time this had happened in the Billboard chart ‘s 55 years. It represents a huge contrast to 10 years ago when a person of a color recorded every chart-topping hit. Rather, African-American artists were featured on other artists’ songs last year, such as Rihanna on Eminem’s “The Monster” and T.I. and Pharrell on Robin Thicke’s inescapable summer hit “Blurred Lines.”

In a similar role reversal, Molanphy also cited that white artists topped the No. 1 spot on the R&B/Hip-Hop chart in 44 out of the 52 weeks last year.

The color omission also applied to this year’s recent inductees into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, in which there is not one living African-American artist among them — E Street Band sax player Clarence Clemmons will be posthumously inducted.

As for why this is happening, Molanphy wrote: “Music fans are playing out an unironic version of Stephen Colbert’s joke about not seeing color…and yet somehow, when the data is compiled about what we’re all buying and streaming, the Timberlakes and Matherses and Macklemores keep winding up atop the stack, ahead of the Miguels and J. Coles.”

entertainment.time.com/2014/01/10/color-blind-no-african-american-artists-had-a-no-1-hit-in-2013/#ixzz2qCy04xpG

How much R&B hip hop airplay from Urban stations did the top R&B hip hop songs recieve on average this year? Billboard is somewhat responsible for the R&B charts not really gleaning information relative to the format they are supposed to represent.

[Deleted]

How many black/urban acts had a top 10 hit, relative to past years? That would be the stat I'm more interested in, as #1 is a goal that not many artists of any color attain (and also, I kind of don't like when people get all wound up about #1 as if peaking 'only' in the top 5 or 10 is not enough to count as a big hit). I am sure that number is smaller in proportion as well, but at least it would not be zero.

The r&b stat is not even an accurate comparison; BB's formula change makes 2013 a completely different chart from any other year. A more apt comparison, as Adonis just alluded, would be with the year-end r&b/hip-hop airplay charts. I know Macklemore didn't have a strong presence on urban airplay and The Monster hasn't even broken top 25. Suit & Tie peaked at #6, I think Mirrors was a top 20 airplay hit. Now, Robin...Robin alone would skew this greatly. But that's absolutely understandable since r&b is his core format. It would have been more amiss if urban hadn't jumped on BL. It's also moderately excusable for JT since he isn't a total stranger to urban himself. Then there's Lorde to factor in, a newbie but Royals clearly gets its roots from listening to a bunch of hip-hop on loop...it seems, in general, that urban is not so open to white rappers but pretty accepting of blue eyed soul as long as it seems apparent that you're following a few unspoken ground rules. That would be true of any year. It only seems more glaring this year b/c the 'acceptance' is not being reciprocated.

[neverduplicated]

If you look at the Billboard 2013 Year-End Hot 100, there are actually quite a lot of black artists, but most of them are featured.

1) "Thrift Shop" Macklemore & Ryan Lewis featuring Wanz
2) "Blurred Lines" Robin Thicke featuring T.I. and Pharell
5) "Can't Hold Us" Macklemore & Ryan Lewis featuring Ray Dalton
9) "Cruise" Florida Georgia Line featuring Nelly
13) "Stay" by Rihanna featuring Mikky Ekko
14) "Get Lucky" by Daft Punk featuring Pharell (though Pharell sings the whole song)
19) "Wake Me Up" by Avicii featuring Aloe Blacc (not credited, but he sings the whole song)
20) "Suit & Tie" by JT featuring Jay-z
22) "Holy Grail" by Jay-z featuring JT
23) "Scream & Shout" by Will.i.am & Britney Spears
27) "Diamonds" by Rihanna
32) "Started from the Bottom" by Drake
34) "Hold On We're Going Home" by Drake featuring Majid Jordan
39) "Love Me" Lil Wayne featuring Drake and Future
41) "F'in Problems" by ASAP Rocky featuring Drake, 2 Chainz, and Kendrick Lamar
42) "Beauty and a Beat" by Justin Bieber featuring Nicki Minaj
48) "Power Trip" by J Cole featuring Miguel
49) "Girl on Fire" by Alicia Keys featuring Nicki Minaj

So that means black artists are lead or featured on 18 of the top 50 hits of 2013, and the thread highlights, "black" and "R&B" aren't as synonymous as they used to be as not all black artists are making R&B and not all R&B is by black artists. Rihanna and Will.i.am are both essentially pop artists who only sometimes gets play on R&B radio. Nelly is on the biggest "country" hit of the year and Darius Rucker (number 54 with "Wagon Wheel") had the second biggest country hit of the year. Then there's also Aloe Blacc who is a soul singer but featured on an EDM song.

[Grün]

It seems like music is more diverse now. Any person of any color, can sing any song. Why can't a white person rap? Why can't a black person sing country?

I do see any rules about this, I don't care what color of skin the person has, I just care about the music.

[Live Your Life]

"Royals" is now #1 at Urban radio. Over the past year, Justin Timberlake, Robin Thicke, Miley Cyrus, (thanks to Mike WiLL Made It) and Lorde have gone to Top 10 at Urban radio. Eminen could possibly go to Top 10 with "The Monster" too.

[Deleted]

Jan 19, 2014 16:32:56 GMT -5 Live Your Life said:

Eminen could possibly go to Top 10 with "The Monster" too.

Not likely. That song lost its bullet and is now heading downwards, it peaked at #16 last week.