The state of R&B

[Agent Yoncé]

I hate looking at this thread b/c the title is rather disturbing & some people in here aren't being rational, in my eyes. Music should not have any color boundaries or limitations. I'm typically not a fan of genre labeling songs b/c there is no accurate or proper way of doing it, but it's inevitable.

Despite all that has happened this past year, I actually appreciate the diversity as far as welcoming the non convential rappers, non African American artists & even your not so typical ratchet, club bangers, overtly sexual songs to the R&B/Hip Hop world. We need a new change of screenary, a splash of dare devils that aren't afraid of being an outcast. A lot of these artists lacks a believable & relatable personality, which is why you don't see record companies fully invest in a lot of your favorite artists.

I would like to believe the huge issue w/this past year is the fact Billboard have glorified these new R&B/HH saviors when they are releasing if not similar music that is being played on Urban radio but a watered down, lifeless, generic sound that the likes of YG, Kid Ink, Jeezy, etc are doing & let's not start on the Janelle Monàe, Fantasia, Miguel that not only struggling on their main charts, but also to crossover to Pop. Now the people that focuses on their man genre charts pretty much need to crossover to Pop in order to succeed?In order for Sevyn Streeter to go Top 10 on R&B/HH Songs chart she has to high dowloads, streaming & Pop support? But a song that barely goes Top 20 on Urban is allowed to rack up multiple weeks on top of the chart all b/c they were deemed an Hip Hop track? What does that say to the audience that requested 'It Won't Stop' to #1 on the radio format when it doesn't translate to the songs chart? That is so ass backwards. Lol.

I'm not too sure how things will get better or how they can overcome this, but I really hope it happens rather soon.

[Deleted]

Jan 19, 2014 18:00:58 GMT -5 Agent Yoncé said:

I hate looking at this thread b/c the title is rather disturbing & some people in here aren't being rational, in my eyes. Music should not have any color boundaries or limitations. I'm typically not a fan of genre labeling songs b/c there is no accurate or proper way of doing it, but it's inevitable.

Despite all that has happened this past year, I actually appreciate the diversity as far as welcoming the non convential rappers, non African American artists & even your not so typical ratchet, club bangers, overtly sexual songs to the R&B/Hip Hop world.

That's not really the problem though. It's not so much a "white washing" of Urban radio that's the problem (or even the case). It's black artists struggling at pop radio for the past few years, and the fact that there have been several R&B and rap hits at pop radio in the past year but the only one that wasn't led by a white artist was "Holy Grail".

[#LisaRinna]

@ 'Royals' though.

Urban radio is kinda becoming a mess. With all the non-Rap songs they could play, they choose a Pop hit. Meanwhile R&B tracks have to remain confined to Urban AC?

[Agent Yoncé]

Jan 19, 2014 19:23:40 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

Jan 19, 2014 18:00:58 GMT -5 Agent Yoncé said:

I hate looking at this thread b/c the title is rather disturbing & some people in here aren't being rational, in my eyes. Music should not have any color boundaries or limitations. I'm typically not a fan of genre labeling songs b/c there is no accurate or proper way of doing it, but it's inevitable.

Despite all that has happened this past year, I actually appreciate the diversity as far as welcoming the non convential rappers, non African American artists & even your not so typical ratchet, club bangers, overtly sexual songs to the R&B/Hip Hop world.

That's not really the problem though. It's not so much a "white washing" of Urban radio that's the problem (or even the case). It's black artists struggling at pop radio for the past few years, and the fact that there have been several R&B and rap hits at pop radio in the past year but the only one that wasn't led by a white artist was "Holy Grail".

Oh yea, that too. I see what you mean. I guess I was looking at it from a different stand point as far as the actual changes to R&B, not the artists overcoming their current struggle to appeal to Pop radio. It is pretty bizarre Jay-Z was the only one this year. Kind of makes you wonder did JT play a huge factor in its chart performance over there.

[Deleted]

While I never thought "Royals" would have gone #1 at Urban radio, I think it's a good sign that the format is considering what their listeners want to hear even if it's not considered an R&B or hip-hop song. There's no way it would be a #1 Urban hit if Urban radio listeners were reaching to change the station. It's currently ranked #4 in callout scores at the format. In the 80s, Urban radio would play songs like "Like A Virgin" and "Sussudio" because, while they were not R&B songs, Urban radio listeners responded well to those songs.

The only reason I find it a little off-putting that it's "Royals" that just hit #1 at Urban is because of the fact that the song criticizes hip-hop culture, and it became an Urban hit at a time that pop radio has actually stopped playing Urban music for the most part. It's like being kicked while you're down and asking for more. But I mean, if that's what their listeners want to hear...

[Deleted]

Columbia Records Makes Radio History

Columbia Records has made history as the first and only record label to ever have two unique titles chart at six different Mediabase formats simultaneously. Pharrell Williams' "Happy" and John Legend's "All of Me" are currently charting at Top 40, Rhythm, AC, Hot AC, Urban, and Urban AC. In addition, "Happy" is also charting at Triple A.

"I'm so proud of the incredible job our entire promotion team, led by Lee Leispner, has done with these two songs," comments Columbia's EVP and General Manager Joel Klaiman. "With great music, strategic planning and hard work, we've accomplished something extraordinary for these special artists."

Philippe Generali, CEO/President of Mediabase, comments, "Clearly we've entered into an era of fewer walls between formats and more doors are opening for artists. When Pharrell charts at 7 formats and John Legend at 6, we are at a tipping point. This is indicative of a phenomenon. The entire Mediabase team extends congratulations to Columbia for this historical accomplishment."

"Happy" is featured on Williams' just-announced Columbia Records debut, G I R L, available worldwide Monday, March 3. Currently #1 on the iTunes Songs chart in the U.S., the song has topped the chart in more than 75 countries, selling more than 3 million downloads. In addition to ranking #2 on the Billboard Hot 100 this week, "Happy" has also become the highest-charting Oscar-nominated song in more than a decade. It is now certified Platinum in the U.S. Having just performed "Happy" at the BRIT Awards and the NBA All-Star Game, Williams is slated to perform the song this weekend on the 86th Annual Academy Awards on Sunday, March 2.

John Legend’s chart-topping "All of Me," from his Grammy-nominated album Love In The Future, has been certified Platinum in the U.S. and is Legend's biggest radio hit of his career. Immediately following his serenade of the song at this year's Grammys, "All Of Me" rose 110 percent on SoundScan and jumped to #3 on iTunes, marking the most explosive jump of any Grammy performer that evening. The single, which recently reached #1 on iTunes, currently holds strong at #3 on iTunes’ Songs chart in the U.S. The singer kicks off his 2014 North American tour, An Evening with John Legend: The All of Me Tour, on March 20 in Temecula, CA. In addition, Legend will perform on Good Morning America’s post-Oscar show on Monday, March 3.

fmqb.com/article.asp?id=2761920

[allow that]

The success of "Happy" and "All Of Me" is starting to remind me of the mid 90's, when Pop radio was very rock and Hot AC based, but outside of Mariah/Janet/Toni, R&B would have a very difficult time crossing over unless it was some kind of universally themed ballad ("I Believe I Can Fly" type stuff). All it took was a minor changing of the winds and some interesting acts and within a few years R&B was a strong component.

But honestly, it's hard to come at Pop radio for ignoring R&B when the Urban chart has just as little in the upper echelon of its own chart.

[#LisaRinna]

Has this been discussed?

Billboard posted an article on this open letter by Sebastien Elkouby that according to them "has the industry buzzing". It's THE TRUTH.com and Billboard itself should be ashamed for contributing to this mess.

Here's the article:

No song spent more time atop the Billboard Hot 100 last year than Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines," which logged 12 weeks at No. 1 and set the all-time record for radio audience when it reached 229 million listeners in a week. It did so by tapping the sound of classic R&B, which has sparked both controversy – its groove is close enough to Marvin Gaye's 1977 No. 1 hit "Got to Give It Up" to have sparked a since-settled suit involving the Gaye family – and ongoing discussion. That's because 2013 was also a year that didn't have a single black artist top the Hot 100 as a lead performer – the first time that's happened in the chart's 55-year history.

Why? The increasing dominance of pop at radio – across all formats – is one reason. But a satirical commentary by Sebastien Elkouby published on RapRehab.com the day of the Grammy Awards (Jan. 26) took aim at the marginalization of black artists in popular culture in general. It struck a nerve – especially in light of the apology Macklemore made the following day to Kendrick Lamar for "robbing" him at the Grammys.

Macklemore Tells Kendrick Lamar It 'Sucks That I Robbed You' After GRAMMYs

"This letter is sad because it's not far from the truth," says the co-founder of one R&B independent label. The head of an R&B-focused marketing and branding agency boils down colleagues' universal reaction to the posting in six words: "I was thinking the same thing." An executive who works in the U.K. R&B music industry, adds, "[It] summarized a long-held feeling or fear about what's happening with black music, but [people] haven't felt confident enough to raise these issues."

One person who does is Jeff Robinson, president-CEO of MBK Entertainment. Robinson helped guide Alicia Keys to stardom and helms the careers of R&B singer-songwriters K. Michelle and Elle Varner. He says it was tough to break an R&B artist in 2001, when Keys' debut album, Songs in A Minor, hit No. 1, and it's even tougher now.

"With radio all playing the same songs by the same artists it's difficult to break through," says Robinson. "Even top producers are reluctant to work with new artists, preferring to take the easier way out to work with more established ones." Labels and radio have moved in the direction of branding the music as "adult R&B," whether it's from an established artist like Toni Braxton (whose recent album with Babyface, 'Love, Marriage & Divorce,' debuted at No. 4 on the Billboard 200) or a new artist like Varner. "So they tend to not believe in its selling power as they once did," says Robinson. "I couldn't disagree more."

"R&B has to be given a chance," says Reggie Rouse, PD of Atlanta mainstay WVEE, which plays a notable amount of new R&B music for its 18-54 audience. On WVEE, alongside Drake and Ace Hood you'll hear Tamar Braxton and Miguel as well as R. Kelly, Jill Scott and Anthony Hamilton. "I know we have to get ratings, but we jump off R&B records too quickly because it takes longer to research than hip-hop. R&B is the core, the foundation for pop, hip-hop and other music."

But radio playlists have indeed tightened, in part due to Nielsen Audio's Portable People Meter, which monitors listening more accurately than diaries once did. For some R&B stations this has meant playing a higher quotient of oldies or switching to another format altogether to retain audience and advertising dollars. Elsewhere it's created a drive to find the songs that get the biggest and broadest audience response, which often are pop songs that can work as cross-format smashes – like "Blurred Lines" or Lorde's "Royals," a hit on the Hot 100, as well as the alternative, hip-hop and Latin charts.

It's "killing our culture," laments the head of one indie label. "We're hitting a glass ceiling with such limited exposure." R&B industry executives and managers worry that the genre, like jazz before it, will continue to shrink in exposure and audience. Others say the music simply isn't strong enough right now, and point to the emergence of R&B alternative artists like The Weeknd and Frank Ocean as the future.

One thing that may soon change is the drought for black artists atop the Hot 100. Pharrell's "Happy" is No. 2 on the chart dated March 1, and has the momentum to go to No. 1. If it does, Pharrell will be the first lead black act to top the chart since Rihanna in December 2012 with "Diamonds." The only thing in the way right now? The reigning No. 1: Katy Perry's "Dark Horse," which is fueled by a hip-hop assist from Juicy J. If Perry's new video posts big numbers, the Hot 100 blackout may continue.

Read Elkouby's piece on the next page and a break down of some its key points.

And here's the letter with Billboard's footnotes:

Notice To Black Artists: Your Services Are No Longer Needed 1

Dear Black Artists,

We regret to inform you that the need for your services will soon come to an end as we enter a critical restructuring period. Fortunately, after having spent nearly a century meticulously studying your art, language, fashion, and lifestyle, we have learned enough to confidently move forward without your assistance. We thank you for your contributions but have decided to make some necessary changes as a result of your decreasing value. Focus groups show that consumers are looking for more relatable images. While 2013 marked the first time in Billboard’s 55 year history that there were no black artists on the Hot 100 chart,2 this was a great year for us with Justin Timberlake, Robin Thicke, and Macklemore claiming the #1 spot on the R&B/Hip-Hop chart, proving that market demands are shifting. Consequently, in the next few months, we will be gradually phasing out your positions as we finalize this reorganization. In the meantime, we ask you to continue with business as usual, training your replacements Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber until instructed otherwise.

Your severance package includes a lifetime supply of Air Jordans, unlimited access to reruns of "Love and Hip Hop", a new 30 piece Tom Ford wardrobe, and the latest iPhone. Your medical coverage will be provided through ObamaCare.

We want you to know that your termination is in no way a statement about the quality of your work with us. As such, we would like to acknowledge your outstanding contributions to the industry over the past decades.

In music, we’d like to thank Kendrick Lamar’s thought-provoking body of work which has opened the door for Macklemore, a shining example of what intelligent rap looks like.3

In business, Jay Z's partnership with Samsung was historical as the Korean mobile company paid the rapper a mere $5 million and his company Roc Nation, another $15 million, a bargain deal relative to their standard annual $4 billion marketing budget and $220 billion net worth.4

In fashion, while Kanye West may be experiencing difficulties launching his own brand, his loyalty to European designers continues to add value to an already thriving industry that other entertainers like Migos seem to enjoy promoting for free.5

In cinema, "The Butler" and "12 Years a Slave" were Oscar-worthy gems, showcasing the strength and pride of a resilient people. We understand that this year, you will continue this tradition of inspiring historical films with the May release of "Belle" and the History Channel's forthcoming reboot of the groundbreaking 70's televised series, "Roots". Your work did not go unnoticed as it has inspired us to produce new historical movies of our own, depicting our rich cultural heritage. Upcoming releases include:

* "Son of God" produced by reality TV pioneer Mark Burnett and starring Diogo Morgado
* "Noah" starring Russell Crowe
* "Exodus" starring Christian Bale as Moses
* "Mary, Mother of Christ" starring 16 year old Odeya Rush

Just as your movies depict the struggles and achievements of your best and brightest, these powerful films are meant to inspire and remind us of our glorious past and divine lineage.

In an attempt to capitalize on the recent trend in movies that focus on triumphs of the African-American experience, we have recently begun developing films with similar themes. Channing Tatum has just been cast as the lead in the Nat Turner Story while Scarlett Johansson is reported to have accepted the role of Harriet Tubman in a forthcoming biopic. Like Quentin Tarentino’s "Django Unchained", both movies promise to offer the perfect balance between shoot-em-up style action and social commentary while boasting two smash-hit soundtracks featuring Eminem, Katy Perry, and Ke$ha.

Again, none of this could have been accomplished without your unwavering commitment and dedication to our mission. We trust that your transition will be smooth and wish you continued success with your new journey into Electronic Dance.


1. This posting on RapRehab.com appeared Jan. 26 the day of the Grammys. The author Sebastien Elkouby is a former publicist for KRS-One who now works as a creative consultant, freelancer writer for RapRehab and an educator.

2. There's a chart wather's nuance here: t was the first year in the chart's history that no black artist topped the chart as a lead performer. However four songs featuring black artists did claim No. 1 last year: "Thrift Shop" (Macklemore & Ryan Lewis featuring Wanz), "Can't Hold Us" (Macklemore & Lewis featuring Ray Dalton), "Blurred Lines" (Robin Thicke featuring T.I. adn Pharrell) and "The Monster" (Eminem featuring Rihanna).

3. After winning best new artist, best rap song, best rap performance and best rap album, Macklemore Instagrammed a screen grab of an apology text he sent Kendrick Lamar, who was nominiated for seven Grammys and won none. "You got robbed," it read in part. "I robbed you."

4. The value of Jay Z's deal with Samsung was actually $30 million. Samsung's global marketing budget is actually $14 billion, though its U.S. budget for 2013 was estimated to be $1 billion.

5. West has complained of his power struggles in the fashion industry, and recently left Nike for a deal with Adidas. Atlanta trio Migos released the single, "Versace," which repeats the designer's name more than 35 times in a row as a hook. The Versace store in Atlanta reportedly had a rise in sales after the song became a hit in September.

www.billboard.com/articles/columns/the-juice/5915608/notice-to-black-artists-behind-rbs-struggle-at-radio-the-letter?page=0%2C0

[allow that]

Apr 16, 2015 16:23:54 GMT -5 Live Your Life said:

Apr 16, 2015 15:03:23 GMT -5 allow that said:

Yeah, those chart toppers don't satiate me as an R&B fan. Nor does John Legend's "All Of Me" which is basically an Adele adult contemporary ballad that happens to be sung by a black man. Nor does Pharrell's "Happy" which is a pop ditty from a children's movie with some mild R&B touches of the retro nature.

I want some fresh, inventive, forward thinking R&B back on top!

I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, but I feel that R&B music is probably at its worse state ever right now. The problem is, there is really no present-day R&B sound. I can't think of any other time it's been like it is now. Everyone's either doing retro R&B or singing (or rhythmically talking) over trap beats. I think that's why I like "Earned It" so much and have been rooting for it. Melodically, it has hints of the R&B music that most of us grew up on, but the cinematic aspects in the song kind of update it for the 2010s. It sounds modern.

This is from the current Hot 100 thread but I think it's plenty worthy of an offshoot conversation here. Do we even have R&B at the moment?

Personally, I think an artist like Tinashe holds the balance between traditional R&B and what's commercially appealing today. The Weeknd does as well and it's not surprising me that he's doing well.

[Deleted]

Idk that posters life obviously but just because there isn't current R&B hits doesn't mean there isn't a current R&B sound. Tinashe, Frank Ocean, Bey, K Michelle, Usher, Jhene, Miguel, Sevyn, Trey Songz, Chris Brown, etc. all make up the current R&B landscape. Not even mentioning up-and-comers like Elijah Blake, Kelela, Lyrica Anderson, Alexandria and Derek King.

Radio might not be and the Billboard Hot 100 CERTAINLY is not, but R&B is in a great place IMO.

[allow that]

Apr 16, 2015 21:47:31 GMT -5 @soblu said:

Radio might not be and the Billboard Hot 100 CERTAINLY is not, but R&B is in a great place IMO.

I think perspective has a lot to do with it. I'm with you in that I think the R&B that exists right now is among the best its been since the 90's. But considering his post was in a Hot 100 thread, Live You Life probably meant the R&B that does well (which unfortunately isn't much) is drowned out by either being too pop or drowned out by blurring lines with rap hits. One can turn on Urban radio, which is traditionally R&B based, and end up barely hearing R&B.

I think the mood R&B that's done by many of the artists you mention is what really represents the current scene. I just wish these artists had more support from radio and their labels alike. On a different side of the spectrum, the DJ Mustard is certainly a "sound of the time" to the extent that I'd usually find it bewildering that none of the clothes cut from this cloth have topped the Hot 100 yet, but all things considered...

Anyway, as for Urban radio itself this is why 2012 stands out over the others as an excellent snapshot for R&B at Urban radio this decade, with songs like "Climax," "Adorn," "Put It Down," "Dance For You," "Thinkin Bout You," etc all doing exceptionally well there.

[YourFaveIsAFlop]

Apr 16, 2015 20:52:26 GMT -5 allow that said:

Apr 16, 2015 16:23:54 GMT -5 Live Your Life said:

I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, but I feel that R&B music is probably at its worse state ever right now. The problem is, there is really no present-day R&B sound. I can't think of any other time it's been like it is now. Everyone's either doing retro R&B or singing (or rhythmically talking) over trap beats. I think that's why I like "Earned It" so much and have been rooting for it. Melodically, it has hints of the R&B music that most of us grew up on, but the cinematic aspects in the song kind of update it for the 2010s. It sounds modern.

This is from the current Hot 100 thread but I think it's plenty worthy of an offshoot conversation here. Do we even have R&B at the moment?

Personally, I think an artist like Tinashe holds the balance between traditional R&B and what's commercially appealing today. The Weeknd does as well and it's not surprising me that he's doing well.

 I wouldn't necessarily lump the Weeknd in. He was essentially unknown to wider audiences before the Ariana Grande feature, and Earned It is definitely benefiting from the 50SOG tie in. Often has made a little impact, but nothing to set the world on fire. His previous material would never work with a pop audience. If he's headed in a more Earned It direction, he may have a future though.

[allow that]

Apr 17, 2015 10:21:00 GMT -5 YourFaveIsAFlop said:

 I wouldn't necessarily lump the Weeknd in. He was essentially unknown to wider audiences before the Ariana Grande feature, and Earned It is definitely benefiting from the 50SOG tie in. Often has made a little impact, but nothing to set the world on fire. His previous material would never work with a pop audience. If he's headed in a more Earned It direction, he may have a future though.

I was mainly referring to mainstream urban radio when I spoke of the The Weeknd's commercial ability. I think several highlights from his three free mixtapes could have worked, including "Wicked Games," which was older than dirt by the time it was finally given a push.

Anyway, The Weeknd's upcoming single will be produced by Max Martin and supposedly channel Michael Jackson. It's already been described as an "obvious smash" by some who've heard it, so he'll do well. But as you say, the only way he was able to secure all of this investment from the label was to swap out the sound that put him on the map in the first place in favor of mainstream pop hitmakers. How does that bode well for the genre?

[Deleted]

With The Weeknd's huge singles success and incredible album sales, are the tides turning?

[#LisaRinna]

The Weeknd was put on the map at Pop radio by a soundtrack single (for the most anticipated movie of the year) and a clear Pop song, produced by Pop producers. Now "The Hills" is doing great, but I don't believe that's enough to declare that "the tides are turning." But that's just me..

But before they turn on Pop radio, I need them to turn on Urban radio because it's a shame.

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2015 8:05:14 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

With The Weeknd's huge singles success and incredible album sales, are the tides turning?

God, I hope not. I would love to see R&B be prominent again. Just not with him at the forefront. I consider him pop anyway.

LOL at that Jasmine Guy gif. ;)

[Live Your Life]

I think the main problem, now, is how people/radio are treating female R&B songs and albums. There have been quite a few male artists scoring multi-format hits with R&B songs and releasing albums to decent sales for a few years now. However, female R&B might be at its lowest point ever, commercially, and they can pretty much forget about going to top 10 at mainstream urban radio right now. Tamar Braxton's "Love and War" has sold around 430k, which is highly impressive, in today's times. But I can't really think of another female R&B album that has even scanned 200k, let alone gone Gold. A list would maybe look like:

01. Beyoncé's self-titled album has scanned over 2M copies, but is it really an R&B album? I consider it an urban alternative album with strong trap sounds, overall. "Blow" and "Rocket" are the only true R&B songs on it, IMO.
02. Jhené Aiko's "Sail Out" EP has sold close to 300k.
03. Mary J. Blige's Christmas album went Gold (but again, is that really considered an R&B album?). Otherwise, I would have to go with her "My Life II... The Journey Continues (Act 1)" album as the last true female R&B album to scan over 500k copies.

Trying to come up with R&B albums is subjective in itself because music genres are bleeding into each other so much now that it's hard to classify anybody as one thing. For example, I don't consider Tinashe's music R&B at all, and her voice has no soul whatsoever. Yet, I see her listed as an R&B singer all the time. I've seen people call Beyoncé a pop artist when her voice and its characteristics are deeply rooted in R&B music. It also gets tricky when you put crossover R&B artists in the mix because, when they make it at pop radio, some people will classify them as a pop artist no matter what. It's really something that can be debated forever.

[firefly]

Tinashe is definitely a R&B artist. Just because her voice is sweet and soft doesn't mean it's soulless.

[Live Your Life]