musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 5, 2013 17:15:24 GMT -5
Im not trying to say that pop radio is declining, Im pointing out that pop music seems to have fallen from interest. Look at the past 30 years; 1985-1989 is when synthpop rises after a period of many AC crossovers, 1997-2001 saw the rise of Britney, Nsync and the like after alt crossovers and AC ballads were dominant, 2009-2013 when dance pop was dominant after a period of hip hop crossovers. Pop music is music that only finds airplay only on top-40 oriented stations. Im pointing out that the pop music itself seems to be losing interest and another period of crossovers and AC may be starting. Disco understood where I was trying to get at. Its my bad if other posters think Im coming off on the wrong way but Im not trying to argue. In other words, is generic dance pop (pop music) dead? How does pop radio adapt to to the dissappearence of music like Slow Down or Give It 2 U after it falls from favor? I'm not seeing that yet. Yes there may be a slightly different tone to the fall releases right now, but it all depends on how well these new sounding songs perform. Plus I'm sure there are quite a few other releases we don't know about yet, some that could "under the radar" so to speak.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 5, 2013 17:22:38 GMT -5
You're right; Top 40 analysts Guy Zapoleon and Sean Ross talk about the top 40 life-cycle all the time; The 10-year cycle actually dates back to the 1950s, with Rock and Roll 'saving the 50s, Beatlemania saving the early 60s, and Disco saving the early 70s doldrums. Where there is a big difference this decade is that for once, mainstream top 40 ratings have not tanked (like the 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s). As such, Top 40 is not DESPERATE to grab something else that is working somewhere else (like in the past: new wave, grunge, hip-hop). Another element is the psychological aspect of the decade we live in: When you go from the 80s to the 90s (for instance), there is a generational shift. Radio wants to be hip and young and jettison everything related to the former decade (era). The 2000s and 2010s feel like many to be the same thing, just a continuation. That may change when we enter 'The new roaring 20s' next decade) Agreed about the ratings. Another reason I don't see a decline in pop radio for the foreseeable future is due to how things are playing out in Chicago. You have a heritage Hot AC/Adult CHR station in WTMX with record high ratings earlier this year, and still over 5.0 right now. You have heritage B96 and 13 year old Kiss-FM with solid ratings in and around a 4.0 share each. The latter two stations that are actually mainstream CHR stations playing alternative crossovers and some AC crossovers, something neither did even three or four years ago. For those that have lived in Chicago for a long time, most know this is the first time we even have had CHR stations that play different genres of music since the late 80's! That's how devoid Chicago was of mainstream CHR stations outside of WTMX all of these years. I think the ratings say it all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 17:24:16 GMT -5
'decline' isn't really the right word. i get what OP is trying to say, i think. mainstream music trends go through phases, so that pure pop alternates between dominating, being on equal footing, and being on the backburner with other genres. right now i would say pure pop is on equal footing with alt-pop and midtempo hac, with heavier edm-influenced songs being close behind. it's not really a comment on the actual quality of pure pop music - in fact i'd argue that the quality of pop music now is as good as it's ever been (the artists themselves are another matter, but that is another argument altogether). even when in the backburner stage, there's always a space for pure pop artists to reign, it's just that the 'one-off' artists who only have a hit or two will more than likely not get that hit by releasing pure pop songs. they'll have to put out something in line with whatever trend is dominating at the moment.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 5, 2013 17:28:37 GMT -5
I personally would like to see a split between hip hop and rock as well as a bit of EDM as well as a minority of other genres. I grew up in a family listening to rhythmic chr (WKST in early/mid 2000s) and was kinda shocked to see that acts like Jim Jones, Trillville, and 2 Pistols did not chart nearly as high as my station made it seem haha. In regards to that, Im all for hip hop and r&b making a strong comeback as Macklemore, Ariana, and even Imagine Dragons made todays sound a step closer to what it sounded like when I was young [/span] [/quote] Well, I think us who grew up in the 80's, and even a lot of 20-somethings who grew up with the hip-hop don't want to see that come back. The CHR ratings during the peak of hip-hop five or six years ago weren't all that bad, but the music was way too dominated by this genre and turned off a lot of the older end demo. Hence, despite decent numbers, it was hard to call Kiss-FM and B96 mainstream CHR stations at that time (see my above post regarding Chicago CHR stations). I think EDM music and retro sound dance pop appeal to far more people than hip-hop ever will, and I think it would be dangerous for CHR stations to embrace that format too much.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 5, 2013 17:32:38 GMT -5
I still feel like your title is totally out of sync with what you're trying to say, for the sake of being annoyingly attention grabbing. I'm not trying to be the thread title police, but it's just irritating. Obviously by no measure is pop music "on the decline", I find it a bit absurd to even ask that, and it doesn't really have anything to do with your discussion about diversity on pop radio and the amorphous nature of the genre. That's why I don't understand why you keep clinging to it. Why is this absurd for him to ask this question? I'm with you tf in that I agree with you that I don't believe pop music is on the decline, at least not right now, and is still at a peak of variety and substance that we haven't seen in many years. But that doesn't mean it's "absurd" for someone to ask this question. It's a legitimate question to ask since the quality of pop music tends to go through cycles, and everyone's opinion on the subject should be welcomed. I for one really enjoy discussing this as I have been a huge pop music fan for decades, even through the real bad times. I hope this thread stays active for quite awhile. Of course it's an absurd question. The poster is trying to make a connection between observing the cycles of different radio trends and a genre of music that has an insanely ever-evolving definition to be "dead" (changed to "in decline"). That's his central premise. It's the topic title. It's his "thesis" if you will. And it's a premise that doesn't make any lick of sense with just one quick look at the radio charts or the iTunes Charts. And throughout the thread, he never really refuses to engage and/or defend the substance of his OWN premise. Sure everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I'm sorry -- you ask a silly question, I'm going to tell you it's silly. Like I can try ignoring it and just discussing the very interesting radio trends going on right now; like I said the alternative trend is really fascinating. It's also GREAT to see ballads again. It wasn't too long ago where it felt like there were literally no ballads that were getting played on CHR. I LOVE that Someone Like You went #1. And I WOULD agree that certain EDM is sort of a bit on it's way out. Not entirely, as the cycle takes a little bit, and you still have stuff like "Get Lucky", "Clarity", and "Applause". But it DOES "feel" a bit different from around, what, 2011? I also can't help but think Ke$ha is related to this trend -- you can see some evidence of dance pop beginning to fall out of style ever so slightly by the struggling of her recent songs, "Applause" being slightly out of place compared to other songs around it, etc. Now unfortunately, the OP decided to take all this discussion and package it around the question: "Is Pop music dead?" Which stays absurd.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 18:24:29 GMT -5
@ theflying: What do you think a great title for this thread would be?
I also see how some could view pop music as being "strong as ever" when considering that songs like "Royals", "Demons", "Dark Horse", and "Roar" have the same massive audience appeal despite them having traces of different genres. I DO think that we are undergoing some sort of transition and want this thread to focus on that.
In order to focus on this transition and extend the potential of this discussion, I am willing to expand on that with a new title. Is anybody against that or should it stay as is?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 19:07:13 GMT -5
Why is this absurd for him to ask this question? I'm with you tf in that I agree with you that I don't believe pop music is on the decline, at least not right now, and is still at a peak of variety and substance that we haven't seen in many years. But that doesn't mean it's "absurd" for someone to ask this question. It's a legitimate question to ask since the quality of pop music tends to go through cycles, and everyone's opinion on the subject should be welcomed. I for one really enjoy discussing this as I have been a huge pop music fan for decades, even through the real bad times. I hope this thread stays active for quite awhile. Of course it's an absurd question. The poster is trying to make a connection between observing the cycles of different radio trends and a genre of music that has an insanely ever-evolving definition to be "dead" (changed to "in decline"). That's his central premise. It's the topic title. It's his "thesis" if you will. And it's a premise that doesn't make any lick of sense with just one quick look at the radio charts or the iTunes Charts. And throughout the thread, he never really refuses to engage and/or defend the substance of his OWN premise. Sure everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I'm sorry -- you ask a silly question, I'm going to tell you it's silly. Like I can try ignoring it and just discussing the very interesting radio trends going on right now; like I said the alternative trend is really fascinating. It's also GREAT to see ballads again. It wasn't too long ago where it felt like there were literally no ballads that were getting played on CHR. I LOVE that Someone Like You went #1. And I WOULD agree that certain EDM is sort of a bit on it's way out. Not entirely, as the cycle takes a little bit, and you still have stuff like "Get Lucky", "Clarity", and "Applause". But it DOES "feel" a bit different from around, what, 2011? I also can't help but think Ke$ha is related to this trend -- you can see some evidence of dance pop beginning to fall out of style ever so slightly by the struggling of her recent songs, "Applause" being slightly out of place compared to other songs around it, etc. Now unfortunately, the OP decided to take all this discussion and package it around the question: "Is Pop music dead?" Which stays absurd. god you have such a shit tone of voice. Stay For the Musik changed the title to try to make it more amenable for you and is STILL WILLING to do so, so it it is obvious that being inflammatory was not his original intent. that you yourself are so easily flammable is no one else's fault so stop trying to make it someone else's problem. you're bitching b/c you think he chose an absurd and unintelligent argument, but your insistently confrontational tone is equally absurd. at worst OP is simply guilty of making a poor choice of words and a later explanation of his thoughts shows that he was speaking more in regard to a specific and recent subset of pop, not of a genre as a whole. i choose to believe this is simply b/c he didn't know how else to phrase the question. it happens. stop harping on it. Stay For the Musik, even if it's not 100% accurate to the discussion you were trying to spur, there's nothing wrong with your current title. don't change it.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 5, 2013 19:16:45 GMT -5
Yeah, it just seems he's been arguing semantics for the whole thread. The point has long been made methinks.
(Careful. Don't tell him to sit the f down)
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 5, 2013 20:24:05 GMT -5
I don't want you changing it on account of me.
I just literally do not understand your premise. It's not "semantics", as the TheMax said.. it's the topic title that also the word "Discussion:" right infront of it.
I'm aware that I'm the only one who can make me look like a jerk, but you literally came to the forum to ask the question "Discussion: Is Pop music dead" -- which was deliberately attention-grabbing and over the top -- and then when you got a response, you just kind of run away scared. Like, I feel like a jerk for even engaging when you clearly weren't prepared to actually have the discussion that you said you wanted in the title. :/
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Mack
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Post by Mack on Oct 5, 2013 21:04:56 GMT -5
At this point, I think "theflying whines just to whine" would be the best thread title.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 21:15:47 GMT -5
The reason I worded the title as I did was because radio programmers often franticly claimed top 40 to be "dead" in the early 80s, mid 90's, and to a lesser extent mid 2000's due to a dominant style of music designed specifically for top 40 play dissappearing and giving way to a period of crossovers from other radio formats which caused top 40 ratings to fall and label confusion. Of course, this is only a cycle and music designed for CHR always makes a comeback in the end (like how new wave "saved" radio in the 80s and how dance-pop killed the oversaturation of hip hop a few years ago)
I was pointing out that todays wave of CHR designed pop music might be dying out due to another transition of crossover-heavy music that happens to have an alternative and AC lean (not unlike the 90's).
Lets also look at the 2000's:
Hip hop/R&B was huge; anything charting decently on rhythmic was also earmarked for play on top 40. Alternative crossovers were also common, and any grunge or punk got good airplay support too. The most pop-leaning songs on the chart had a rock,ballad, or R&B flavor to them too like Kelly, Jojo, Lumidee. Former musicians that broke out during the last wave of pop-heavy focus changed thier style to get airplay. Backstreet boys went from thier bubblegum sound to soft rock with "Incomplete". Britney spears did have success with "Toxic", but followed up with the ballad "Everytime" before having her next pop flavored releases flop. Christina Aguilera had much more success than Britney during this period due to her going in a rhythmic direction as well as the ballad "I am Beautiful" and focused of funk and ballad type music in "Back to Basics"; a far cry from her previous bubblegum sound. Jessica Simpson went from bubblegum to generic R&B pop.
Who were the dominant artists of this era? People like Weezer, 50 Cent, Kanye West, Lifehouse, Mariah Carey, Black Eyed Peas, Fat Joe (and Terror Squad), Lil Jon, Daughtry, Trapt, Fuel, Bow Wow, Paula DeAnda, Eminem, Ludacris, Chris Brown, Ne-yo, T-Pain, Switchfoot, Akon, and so many more. What genre did they specialize in? Hip Hop, R&B, Grunge, and Punk. Pure pop hits did come out in this era, but hardly found the success that they did a few years prior.
In essence, pop declined during this period and in a similar manner in the early 80s and early 90s. I wanted to point out the fact that we may be entering another period of crossover-heavy CHR playlists and music designed specifically for CHR radio will once again fall out of favor. Of course, it is a cycle, and if such a transition happens, bubblegum pop or dance pop or whatever will be dominant once again a few years later.
Also, look up "Zapoleon music cycle" on google to get an understanding of where I'm getting at. I hope I cleared the confusion.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 5, 2013 21:16:36 GMT -5
Yeah, it just seems he's been arguing semantics for the whole thread. The point has long been made methinks. (Careful. Don't tell him to sit the f down) Yeah, which is a shame since this is a great topic. I'm glad to see this thread started in the first place because this is a topic that isn't discussed too often. And yet, it's an important topic because of the influence we have on the sound of what gets played on CHR radio, past, present and future. It's too bad so much time has been wasted by one person hijacking this thread.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 5, 2013 21:22:30 GMT -5
The reason I worded the title as I did was because radio programmers often franticly claimed top 40 to be "dead" in the early 80s, mid 90's, and to a lesser extent mid 2000's due to a dominant style of music designed specifically for top 40 play dissappearing and giving way to a period of crossovers from other radio formats which caused top 40 ratings to fall and label confusion. Of course, this is only a cycle and music designed for CHR always makes a comeback in the end (like how new wave "saved" radio in the 80s and how dance-pop killed the oversaturation of hip hop a few years ago) I was pointing out that todays wave of CHR designed pop music might be dying out due to another transition of crossover-heavy music that happens to have an alternative and AC lean (not unlike the 90's). Lets also look at the 2000's: Hip hop/R&B was huge; anything charting decently on rhythmic was also earmarked for play on top 40. Alternative crossovers were also common, and any grunge or punk got good airplay support too. The most pop-leaning songs on the chart had a rock,ballad, or R&B flavor to them too like Kelly, Jojo, Lumidee. Former musicians that broke out during the last wave of pop-heavy focus changed thier style to get airplay. Backstreet boys went from thier bubblegum sound to soft rock with "Incomplete". Britney spears did have success with "Toxic", but followed up with the ballad "Everytime" before havin her next pol releases flop. Christina Aguilera had much more success than Britney during this period due to her going in a rhythmic directio ans well as the ballad "I am Beautiful" and focused of funk and ballad type music in "Back to Basics"; a far cry from her previous bubblegum sound. Jessica Simpson went from bubblegum to generic R&B pop. Who were the dominant artists of this era? People like Weezer, 50 Cent, Kanye West, Lifehouse, Mariah Carey, Black Eyed Peas, Fat Joe (and Terror Squad), Lil Jon, Daughtry, Trapt, Fuel, Bow Wow, Paula DeAnda, Eminem, Ludacris, Chris Brown, Ne-yo, T-Pain, Switchfoot, Akon, and so many more. What genre did they specialize in? Hip Hop, R&B, Grunge, and Punk. Pure pop hits did come out in this era, but hardly found the success that they did a few years prior. In essence, pop declined during this period and in a similar manner in the early 80s and early 90s. I wanted to point out the fact that we may be entering another period of crossover-heavy CHR playlists and music designed specifically for CHR radio will once again fall out of favor. Of course, it is a cycle, and if such a transition happens, bubblegum pop or dance pop or whatever will be dominant once again a few years later Also, look up "Zapoleon music cycle" on google to get an understanding of where I'm getting at. I hope I cleared the confusion. You did nothing wrong SFTM. This is a great topic and one that interests me a lot because of my interest in contemporary music. And I am very familiar with Guy Zapoleon and the work he has done over the years. I'm sure his research and expertise has saved many CHR stations over the years. Am glad to see others interested in this top SFTM. Hopefully this thread will continue for a long time, and hopefully for the right reasons, trolls notwithstanding.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 21:37:40 GMT -5
You did nothing wrong SFTM. This is a great topic and one that interests me a lot because of my interest in contemporary music. And I am very familiar with Guy Zapoleon and the work he has done over the years. I'm sure his research and expertise has saved many CHR stations over the years. Am glad to see others interested in this top SFTM. Hopefully this thread will continue for a long time, and hopefully for the right reasons, trolls notwithstanding. Haha thanks man! When I was lurking, I saw that discussions like this were actually quite common here many years ago, so I wanted to bring that back because the fall releases have a different flavor compared to the summer releases. The music trends lately have been pretty fascinating and I wanted to make a thread to elaborate on such developments. I was hoping the rest of the forum thought it was a good idea too; at least most of them do. Thanks for the appreciation though!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 21:39:12 GMT -5
I don't want you changing it on account of me. I just literally do not understand your premise. It's not "semantics", as the TheMax said.. it's the topic title that also the word "Discussion:" right infront of it. I'm aware that I'm the only one who can make me look like a jerk, but you literally came to the forum to ask the question "Discussion: Is Pop music dead" -- which was deliberately attention-grabbing and over the top -- and then when you got a response, you just kind of run away scared. Like, I feel like a jerk for even engaging when you clearly weren't prepared to actually have the discussion that you said you wanted in the title. :/ You're the worst kind two pages of whining like a school girl and trying to put down someone for no reason. If you don't like the discussion and or title then get, get gone! But you will fix your tone if you want to participate here because none of us will be putting up with a crusty bitch.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 5, 2013 22:01:55 GMT -5
Oh Jesus Christ stop acting like I'm chastising some 7 year old child. The reason I worded the title as I did was because radio programmers often franticly claimed top 40 to be "dead" in the early 80s, mid 90's, and to a lesser extent mid 2000's due to a dominant style of music designed specifically for top 40 play dissappearing and giving way to a period of crossovers from other radio formats which caused top 40 ratings to fall and label confusion. Of course, this is only a cycle and music designed for CHR always makes a comeback in the end (like how new wave "saved" radio in the 80s and how dance-pop killed the oversaturation of hip hop a few years ago) I was pointing out that todays wave of CHR designed pop music might be dying out due to another transition of crossover-heavy music that happens to have an alternative and AC lean (not unlike the 90's). Lets also look at the 2000's: Hip hop/R&B was huge; anything charting decently on rhythmic was also earmarked for play on top 40. Alternative crossovers were also common, and any grunge or punk got good airplay support too. The most pop-leaning songs on the chart had a rock,ballad, or R&B flavor to them too like Kelly, Jojo, Lumidee. Former musicians that broke out during the last wave of pop-heavy focus changed thier style to get airplay. Backstreet boys went from thier bubblegum sound to soft rock with "Incomplete". Britney spears did have success with "Toxic", but followed up with the ballad "Everytime" before having her next pop flavored releases flop. Christina Aguilera had much more success than Britney during this period due to her going in a rhythmic direction as well as the ballad "I am Beautiful" and focused of funk and ballad type music in "Back to Basics"; a far cry from her previous bubblegum sound. Jessica Simpson went from bubblegum to generic R&B pop. Who were the dominant artists of this era? People like Weezer, 50 Cent, Kanye West, Lifehouse, Mariah Carey, Black Eyed Peas, Fat Joe (and Terror Squad), Lil Jon, Daughtry, Trapt, Fuel, Bow Wow, Paula DeAnda, Eminem, Ludacris, Chris Brown, Ne-yo, T-Pain, Switchfoot, Akon, and so many more. What genre did they specialize in? Hip Hop, R&B, Grunge, and Punk. Pure pop hits did come out in this era, but hardly found the success that they did a few years prior. In essence, pop declined during this period and in a similar manner in the early 80s and early 90s. I wanted to point out the fact that we may be entering another period of crossover-heavy CHR playlists and music designed specifically for CHR radio will once again fall out of favor. Of course, it is a cycle, and if such a transition happens, bubblegum pop or dance pop or whatever will be dominant once again a few years later. Also, look up "Zapoleon music cycle" on google to get an understanding of where I'm getting at. I hope I cleared the confusion. This is correct and all well and good. Yet I still do not understand what you find about the current musical landscape to be contributing to your idea that Pop music is on the decline. You deftly avoid it every-time. Like I pointed out, a lot of the biggest acts right now are Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus, Taylor Swift after deliberately altering her sound to go Pop, Robin Thicke after deliberately altering his sound to go more of a Pop route (than at least what it used to be), Selena Gomez, Demi Lovato, Tegan and Sara seeing their first mainstream top 40 hit with a Pop sound, Jason DeRulo (who is definitely Pop over R&B), Bruno Mars, Lana del Rae has her big hit right now, Pink, One Direction, Britney Spears... I see CHR/Rhythmic and Hot AC stations playing more pop acts than I've seen since the last bubblegum explosion over 12 years ago. These are pop acts right now. And they're dominating. I can see the electronic craze simmering down a little bit in terms of trends. But you're asking if Pop music is currently in decline. Why do you think this?
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 5, 2013 22:45:39 GMT -5
You did nothing wrong SFTM. This is a great topic and one that interests me a lot because of my interest in contemporary music. And I am very familiar with Guy Zapoleon and the work he has done over the years. I'm sure his research and expertise has saved many CHR stations over the years. Am glad to see others interested in this top SFTM. Hopefully this thread will continue for a long time, and hopefully for the right reasons, trolls notwithstanding. Haha thanks man! When I was lurking, I saw that discussions like this were actually quite common here many years ago, so I wanted to bring that back because the fall releases have a different flavor compared to the summer releases. The music trends lately have been pretty fascinating and I wanted to make a thread to elaborate on such developments. I was hoping the rest of the forum thought it was a good idea too; at least most of them do. Thanks for the appreciation though! No problem. :) Even if pop music is not in decline, there are always different trends that occur each year, and that certainly is worth discussing.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 5, 2013 22:50:09 GMT -5
Oh Jesus Christ stop acting like I'm chastising some 7 year old child. Boy, you must have a lot of issues if you spend the whole day on this thread so concerned with how the title of a thread is worded! Talk about obsessive compulsive! Why don't you grow up already?!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 23:47:05 GMT -5
This is correct and all well and good.Yet I still do not understand what you find about the current musical landscape to be contributing to your idea that Pop music is on the decline. You deftly avoid it every-time. Like I pointed out, a lot of the biggest acts right now are Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus, Taylor Swift after deliberately altering her sound to go Pop, Robin Thicke after deliberately altering his sound to go more of a Pop route (than at least what it used to be), Selena Gomez, Demi Lovato, Tegan and Sara seeing their first mainstream top 40 hit with a Pop sound, Jason DeRulo (who is definitely Pop over R&B), Bruno Mars, Lana del Rae has her big hit right now, Pink, One Direction, Britney Spears... I see CHR/Rhythmic and Hot AC stations playing more pop acts than I've seen since the last bubblegum explosion over 12 years ago. These are pop acts right now. And they're dominating. I can see the electronic craze simmering down a little bit in terms of trends. But you're asking if Pop music is currently in decline. Why do you think this? OK, on to today, As we both know, following the release of "Pumped Up Kicks", alternative-flavored has slowly been gaining acceptance once again on pop-radio. In the last month or so, alternative acts have either gained large acceptance on CHR or are being planned for release in the next few months. Also, an extensive line-up of future ballad releases is also planned. Lets not forget urban-flavored crossovers from artists that used to release dance-pop singles to CHR simultaneously with an urban single. Examples: Recent alt crossovers: (Royals, Demons, Radioactive, Safe and Sound, Sail, Still Into You, Sweater Weather) Future alt releases to CHR: (Pompeii, Pumpin Blood, Dirty Paws, Chocolate, Best Day of my Life, If So) Recent AC/Ballad releases to CHR: (Wrecking Ball, Gorilla, Everything Has Changed, Gone Gone Gone, What Now, Let Her Go, Love Me Again, My Kind of Love) Future AC/Ballad releases to CHR: (We Remain, Counting Stars, Elastic Heart, Atlas, 3000 Miles, Dance Apocalyptic Recent hip hop/R&B-type releases to CHR: (The Way, Holy Grail, Hold On We're Going Home, Same Love, Blurred Lines, Bezerk, We Can't Stop, Crooked Smile, I Wish) Future hip hop/R&B-type releases to CHR: (Right There, Beware, White Walls) There are many pop releases over the past summer, but where are the future releases? The closest thing you get to is "Thinking of You", "Stay For the Night", "The Fox", "The Spark", and "Collide", and the last three probably wont even get much airplay and all have strong EDM characteristics. Even the artists you have listed can show that a transition period is occuring. Examples: Katy Perry: "Roar" is midtempo with indie rock influences, "Unconditionally" is supposedly a power ballad, "Dark Horse" is a trap/hip hop fusion with a comparable sound to something Lorde would do, "Walking on Air" is one of few dance oriented songs on the album but still is a deviation from the typical dance-pop sound. All deviate from her old sound. Miley Cyrus: "We Can't Stop" has a hip hop beat produced by Mike Will Made It and "Wrecking Ball" is a symphonic ballad with synths mixed within. Her last release before WCS was "Can't Tame Me" Taylor Swift: Her album is an older project but the country-pop sound wasn't trendy anymore. "22" was the poppiest track on the album and it underperfomed. Her latest release is guitar ballad "Everything Has Changed" with Ed Sheeran Robin Thicke: "Blurred Lines was first released to Urban/Rhythmic but was released to CHR after a few initial adds and strong iTunes sales. "Give It 2 U" is dance-pop, but it doesn't have the strong iTunes sales of its predecessor and has bad callout-scores. Many compare GI2U to "OMG" by Usher, but OMG was released when dance-pop was a new focus and went to #1 on the hot 100 and #2 on CHR airplay. Selena Gomez: You are right regarding her. "Come and Get it" was successful and "Slow Down" has great callout this week; hopefully its iTunes position improves though Demi Lovato: "Heart Attack" did well, but "Made in the USA", which sounded similar to "22" flopped hard. "Neon Lights" is rumored to be next, that's if Hollywood Records wants another release. If NL is released, it'll perform similarly to "Slow Down". Tegan and Sara: They deviate from standard dance pop sound with the 80's synthpop sounding "Closer", but it is not even in the top 100 on iTunes. It needs to improve or airplay will drop off before long. Jason Derulo: "The Other Side" fit right in with many spring/early summer releases and was successful. "Marry Me" is much softer than TOS, but still retains a dance-pop beat. He is also experimenting with hip hop/R&B with "Talk Dirty", a huge hit in Europe and Australia. Bruno Mars: He was never really your typical pop artist. "Locked out of Heaven" was a throwback to a popular The Police song, "When I Was Your Man" was one of three prominent piano ballads that hit this past winter, "Treasure" was heavily disco influenced, and "Gorilla" is a soft rock song that sounds similar to "In the Air" by Phil Collins. Lana Del Rey: EDM doesn't seem to be declining and her "Summertime Sadness" remix with Cedric Gervais is definitely not your standard dance-pop sound a la Slow Down or The Other Side. Pink: Her project is older and her first two releases didn't come out in 2013. "Just Give me a Reason" is one of three piano ballad releases that hit this past winter and has a strong indie influence from Nate Reuss of fun. "True Love" is very pop sounding, but is seriously under performing right now on both radio and iTunes. One Direction: "Best Song Ever" is pop-rock, and like all of their releases after WMYB, it stalled in the 15-20 range on the CHR airplay chart and dropped before it could go recurrent. Britney Spears: "Work Bitch" is starting off well and it is too early to see if it will last. Her next album is supposed to be taking a distinct urban-flavored direction. Femme Fatale was very heavy on dance-pop productons. Sure many of these guys ARE pop acts, but they are not continuing the dance-pop sound that many of them built their popularity off of just like many artist 10 years ago chose to deviate themselves from the bubblegum sound that they built themselves off of. All of my points above seem to indicate that the cycle of music is continuing at pace and it is time for music designed specifically for CHR appeal to give way to the most popular hits from other formats (aka crossover hits). If "On the Floor" or "Sexy and I Know it" were released today they would under-perform because of the same reasons that would have prevented "Radioactive" or "I Will Wait" from being released to CHR a couple years ago. Keep in mind, Mumford was around at the height of the dance-pop craze with music just as appealing as "I Will Wait", but labels never considered releasing them because pop was so dominant. Also, "Sail" peaked on Alternative the same time "Party Rock Anthem" peaked on CHR, yet it only had a chance in 2013 due to a changed musical climate. Conclusion: The cycle is continuing, we are in a transition regarding musical taste, and if it continues, pop will decline just as it has done EVERY decade. It won't be gone forever, and it will make a roaring comeback in familiar form around 2019 at the latest.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 6, 2013 0:07:08 GMT -5
Interesting you mention Chocolate SFTM. Actually I think you meant "Chocolate" by The 1975. This song recently had a run of airplay on north suburban Chicago Hot AC station WXLC, though I think it has since been dropped. Just wondering if it was a test run, which is nice to hear since most stations don't break new artists on their own anymore. But that's a great song, and it would sound good on CHR and other Hot AC stations in the near future. How it would blend in with the current sound on pop radio would be interesting to hear.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 0:10:26 GMT -5
My problem with your analysis is that you've basically taken all these songs and artists that were currently big, and filtering them through your own individual sorting of what constitutes "pop" or not, while THEN comparing them to an unspecified prior time, while implicitly putting a blanket over all of THOSE songs; IE, not doing the same scrutiny of whatever songs your comparing these ones to.
Using the kind of logic you're employing, Ke$ha wasn't traditional dance-pop because she was using the urban-influence of raps in her songs and tacked on guest rappers.
There is no strict sound to "pop". It's not as if it's bubblegum or nothing.
We all agree that there are radio cycles, but logic like this:
Katy Perry is one of the most classic, traditional "Pop" acts around. "Roar" is classic pop. That it's midtempo with some indie-rock influence (I guess?) doesn't stop that it's one of the most obvious traditional pop songs released lately. And it just broke the spin record. I mean, the song's been criticized for being TOO SAFE. Katy Perry is only "deviating from her old sound" in that she's doing different material. :/
I just don't feel like your logic holds up. You could go through every major hit released in prior years and scrutinize and frame it in a way that makes it sound like it's not "traditional" pop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 0:48:35 GMT -5
My problem with your analysis is that you've basically taken all these songs and artists that were currently big, and filtering them through your own individual sorting of what constitutes "pop" or not, while THEN comparing them to an unspecified prior time, while implicitly putting a blanket over all of THOSE songs; IE, not doing the same scrutiny of whatever songs your comparing these ones to. Using the kind of logic you're employing, Ke$ha wasn't traditional dance-pop because she was using the urban-influence of raps in her songs and tacked on guest rappers. The dominant sound of pop over that past few years is the dance-pop sound that has saturated the charts over the past few years like Slow Down, American Girl, Live It Up, Die Young, and The Other Side. Using YOUR logic, I would also consider "Party Rock Anthem" to be urban due to rapped lyrics. Ke$ha is the poster child of the dominant pop trends over the past few years, and "C'mon" and "Crazy Kids" were no different and coincidentally flopped too. "Roar" doesn't sound like anything Katy has released before, and has broke the airplay record as a result; because it was different and fresh. Conversely, "American Girl" by Bonnie McKee sounds like a Teenage Dream era song and is stalling in the mid-20s on the airplay chart. If "California Girls" were released today by Bonnie Mckee, it would not have the same impact as it did in 2010.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 1:05:53 GMT -5
My problem with your analysis is that you've basically taken all these songs and artists that were currently big, and filtering them through your own individual sorting of what constitutes "pop" or not, while THEN comparing them to an unspecified prior time, while implicitly putting a blanket over all of THOSE songs; IE, not doing the same scrutiny of whatever songs your comparing these ones to. Using the kind of logic you're employing, Ke$ha wasn't traditional dance-pop because she was using the urban-influence of raps in her songs and tacked on guest rappers. The dominant sound of pop over that past few years is the dance-pop sound that has saturated the charts over the past few years like Slow Down, American Girl, Live It Up, Die Young, and The Other Side. Using YOUR logic, I would also consider "Party Rock Anthem" to be urban due to rapped lyrics. Ke$ha is the poster child of the dominant pop trends over the past few years, and "C'mon" and "Crazy Kids" were no different and coincidentally flopped too. "Roar" doesn't sound like anything Katy has released before, and has broke the airplay record as a result; because it was different and fresh. Conversely, "American Girl" by Bonnie McKee sounds like a Teenage Dream era song and is stalling in the mid-20s on the airplay chart. If "California Girls" were released today by Bonnie Mckee, it would not have the same impact as it did in 2010. "Party Rock Anthem" being "urban" isn't my logic -- that's my characterization of yours. YES, you can argue there is a segment of songs, like some of Ke$ha's recent offerings, 22, American Girl, True Love, haven't done as well, and they do have a very traditional pop sound. But stuff like "Roar", "Just Give Me A Reason", "Summertime Sadness", "The Other Side", "Come And Get It", "Wrecking Ball", "Treasure", "Get Lucky" -- these were/are literally JUST *MAJOR* hits. This wasn't last year. These songs HAVE BEEN *THE* biggest hits recently. I mean I feel like it takes some disconnect in your reasoning to say California Gurls wouldn't have the same impact if released today when we literally have a standard-fare Katy Perry song currently breaking the spin record. And by the way, "C'mon" and "Crazy Kids" didn't flop. They underperformed relative to Die Young and Ke$ha's status on pop radio, but didn't C'Mon reach the top 10? And "Crazy Kids" is what happens when you lose momentum at Pop radio, which was the result of Ke$ha's own obstacles as an artist that everyone on Pulse saw coming a mile away, it isn't the result of the current radio trends on pop. Bonnie McKee released a good song, she just doesn't have the requisite name power to drive the song further. It's a good, very catchy song, but not quite so good that it was able to overcome her lack of name recognition the way a song like "Clairty" did. It still did well for being a debut single. True Love just doesn't have very good call-out scores. Yet it's still inching it's way up there. I also suspect listeners just didn't respond to "22" the way they did her previous offerings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 1:43:27 GMT -5
I didnt say it was your logic. I said "Using YOUR logic, I would also consider "Party Rock Anthem" to be urban due to rapped lyrics"
And like you said, its your entitled opinion. I already decribed how I think JGMAR, Roar, and Wrecking Ball fall into the continued evolution of CHR. I also awknowedged that The Other Side and other high tempo summer releases have been successful. Im looking at the coming fall music lineup too, and to me it looks like a transition is starting.
I also see your viewpoint; Anything with CHR appeal is considered pop music. If "Sail" goes too 5, you will consider it pop. I see your viewpoint and respect that.
I just tend to think otherwise. Get Lucky and treasure are disco to me, and JGMAR falls straight into the ballad trend to me also. To you, those songs are just new pop hits. Its actually a pretty cool outlook to be honest.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 5:35:23 GMT -5
But you're trying to have this argument without defining what you consider "Pop" to be. And, it's going to be very hard for you, because there IS no definition.
I struggle to understand how in a world where "Just Give Me A Reason" and "Get Lucky" aren't pop songs that you even found enough "pop" songs to even see a massive decline from.
You're literally making this arbitrary grouping of Demi Lovato's "Made in the USA", "22", "True Love", "American Girl", and "Crazy Kids" -- all of which have peaks that are wildly different" -- extrapolating it into an idea, and finding an excuse to discount pretty much anything else.
Somehow "Closer" deviates from traditional dance pop, while "Get Lucky" doesn't count because it's disco -- which is literally the modern day origin of dance pop music?
What exactly was this magical period post Bubblegum-era where the landscape was dominated by "pure pop" that you keep referring to?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 9:22:00 GMT -5
There is so solid definition! But I am trying to show you that there is a distinction between music like "Sweater Weather" by The Neighborhood and "Let Her Go" by passenger from music like "Slow Down" by Selena Gomez or "Turn the Night Up" by Enrique. Right now the fall release line-up leans heavily towards the former two above.
Does "Roar" not sound fresh and different to you compared to dance pop? Do you see how it is a different sound compared to "Live it Up" by JLo?
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 6, 2013 11:48:49 GMT -5
I didnt say it was your logic. I said "Using YOUR logic, I would also consider "Party Rock Anthem" to be urban due to rapped lyrics"And like you said, its your entitled opinion. I already decribed how I think JGMAR, Roar, and Wrecking Ball fall into the continued evolution of CHR. I also awknowedged that The Other Side and other high tempo summer releases have been successful. Im looking at the coming fall music lineup too, and to me it looks like a transition is starting. Time will tell if this is a transition to a new pop sound, or is more of a seasonal transition. Last year at this time we had the mini "folk" sound making waves on the charts, but as we all saw that turned out to be nothing more than a short term "fad" (for lack of a better term). When analyzing trends, not only do people have to look out for long term trends, but they have to look for the short term ones as well. Fall and winter are times when ballads traditionally do better, and some of the folk sounding songs last year had a similar sound as well. That's why they did better during the winter, and even received airplay on stations here in Chicago that never played this type of music before. You just never know what may pop up trend wise from month to month.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 12:19:12 GMT -5
Time will tell if this is a transition to a new pop sound, or is more of a seasonal transition. Last year at this time we had the mini "folk" sound making waves on the charts, but as we all saw that turned out to be nothing more than a short term "fad" (for lack of a better term). When analyzing trends, not only do people have to look out for long term trends, but they have to look for the short term ones as well. Fall and winter are times when ballads traditionally do better, and some of the folk sounding songs last year had a similar sound as well. That's why they did better during the winter, and even received airplay on stations here in Chicago that never played this type of music before. You just never know what may pop up trend wise from month to month. Well said. Perhaps I made this thread too early. Winters over the past few years lacked ballad-type music because of the dance-pop craze, so right now CHR playlists are probably just stabilized. I hope they stay that way; an oversaturation of ballads and Alternative is just as bad as an oversaturation of hip-hop or Dance-pop. We all will have a better understanding on the overall music trends that will occur this next year when summer arrives again and we are able to see how top-40 has changed or not. In the meantime, we can use this thread to showcase the trends until we get there and beyond.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 6, 2013 13:32:28 GMT -5
My understanding of this thread was to ask whether pop music, as in the pure pop sound of artists like Katy Perry or OneDirection, was less prominent than it has been in recent years.
Of course, such a discussion depends on the definition of pop. Someone said all "pop music" is "popular music". I don't disagree with that but I generally feel that pop music does have a distinct sound. Sure, it uses a lot of influences from rock, hip-hop, singer/songwriter, other genres, but when you hear a pop song, you know it's a pop song. I think a lot of the EDM on pop radio these past few years have been pop songs but I would still classify them as being EDM. When a pop artist or pop songs leans heavily toward a particular style or sound, I think that's when pop music itself moves to the back burner in favour of other styles.
My thought on the cycle is that pop radio (and pop everything in general) focuses on a particular style that's "in" for a few years. Most recently, from 2008 or so until nowish, it's been EDM. But in 2011, the EDM-stronghold began to let up when Adele and others came along. Then we saw some folky hits. Some indie-rock bands. Bands like fun., Gotye, and other scored hits. None of them were EDM or dance-heavy. In 2005, when hip-hop finally subsided and other genres began to move through again with, hip-hop songs didn't stop becoming hits. They were just no longer the main focus of pop music (in the popular sense of the term). So more pop (in the genre sense) songs jumped through and it became the year of Kelly Clarkson. I think the periods of poppy pop music is a response to the more heavy-leanings of genre-specific forms of pop like Rock in the mid-to-late 90s and hip-hop in the early-to-mid 2000s and now EDM in the late 2000s, early 2010s. It's like the default until the next major trend comes along. It's something for pop radio to fall back on once we get tired of the genre-trending-hits.
So we've had Justin Bieber and OneDirection and other boyband-type and teen-pop type artists getting hits now because EDM has let go of its stronghold on pop radio and we've been in the transition phase for a while. This is when pop (the genre) is strongest.
To answer the original question, I think it's only a matter of time until the next sound breaks into and takes control over popular music. We'll know that's the case when the staples of pop radio begin to incorporate those sounds into their songs, just like we saw many artists using guest rappers on their hits ten years ago and many using electronic influences on their songs three years ago. Maybe the indie rock/natural sound is on the way in and pop artists will have to bend over for that. I don't think general pop (the genre) is in trouble yet but it's probably on its way into hibernation mode sooner than later.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 14:30:56 GMT -5
I am somewhere in the middle of TheMax and the OP.
I think TheMax is right when he says "But you know it's a pop song when you hear it". I tend to MOST go by this, and it is indeed a personal barometer, but it tends to be the one that most aligns with other people.
I think the OP is simply too narrow in his definition.
You're literally writing off anything that doesn't sound like it's related in DNA to "22".
I do indeed hear the difference in "sound" from the songs you listed as examples. Naturally.
But I just feel like at the heart of what I'm observing is someone that is doing a quick breakdown of a song, and spinning it to further his argument, without regard to it being grounded in the reality of the music scene today.
You can spin any song that gives you an excuse as not being "Pop", and yes, then you will only be left with songs like "22" and "Come and Get It".
But I ultimately feel like most people on this forum, as well as contemporary music listeners today, do not live in a world where "Wrecking Ball" is not a pop song. "The A-Team" isn't described as some indie-acoustic-rock crossover -- it's a pop song. "Roar" isn't a mid tempo rock song -- it's safe, traditional Katy Perry-fare.
At the heart of issue here is you taking a particular "sound" and extrapolating it to be not only be representative of "Pop music", but its only definition.
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