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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 14:55:59 GMT -5
I couldn't have decribed what constitutes a pop song better than TheMax did.
And you are right theflying, most people do not see CHR as a mix of different genres unlike how I did in this thread, you and most listeners just see it all as pop music today just like they did in the mid 2000s when hip hip and rock was big. In your viewpoint, pop is stronger than ever. To you, pop is in a nice balance because of a newfound diversity.
While pop may be in decline to analysts like Guy Zapolean, us listeners just see different kinds of pop music being played alongside eachother.
In the meantime, we all can agree that there are some pretty cool trends going on regarding popular music. And itll be pretty cool to have a thread that discusses such developments. Thats why I might want to change the title to expand on trends in top 40 as a whole, and not just regarding the decline of one.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 15:03:12 GMT -5
But again -- you avoided doing the same kind of analysis on this "other period" you're comparing the current landscape.
Of course the trends on radio are always changing.
But a significant portion of your argument has been how a certain kind of sound (while falsely determining it to be "true" pop music) has been "on the decline".
But it's not like in 2010/2011 every song sounded like California Gurls either.
So what exactly is this original period that we're seeing a "decline" from? You can't scrutinize current songs like you have been and not do it to the other ones.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 16:02:47 GMT -5
I just feel like before the folk influx last winter, many songs charting high in airplay often shared many qualities with eachother. The music from "the other period" often had feel good party centric lyrics, a dance tempo/beat but was not pure EDM, and predictable chord progression. Big time producers like Red One, Dr Luke, and Shellback often made songs in this style especially before this year. This type of music is what is called dance pop by many and turbo pop by billboard
I dont know if you agree but all the examples below sound very similar to eachother in more ways than one:
Love Game, Goodbye, Fire Burning, I Got a Feeling, Sexy Chick, Telephone, Tik Tok, Blah Blah Blah, Meet Me Halfway, Shut it Down, If We Ever Meet Again, Break Your Heart, Somebody to Love, OMG, Your Love is My Drug, California Gurls, I Like it, Dynamite, DJ Got Us Falling in Love, Club Can't Handle Me, Gettin Over You, Take it Off, Only Girl (In The World), Tonight (Im Lovin You), Hey Baby (Drop it to the Floor), Who Dat Girl, We R Who We R, Blow, Firework, Yeah 3x, Born This Way, Give Me Everything, Hold It Against Me, Whos That Chick, S&M, On The Floor, Where Dem Girls At, Party Rock Anthem, Dirty Dancer, I Wanna Go, Dont Wanna Go Home, Without You, We Found Love, International Love, Sexy and I Know it, Good Feeling, Love You Like a Love Song, Turn Me On, Wild Ones, Starships, Dance Again, Breathing, Turn Up the Music, Sorry For Party Rocking, Where Have You Been, Chasing the Sun, Lets Go, Pound the Alarm, Scream, Dont Wake Me Up, Numb, I Cry, I Can Only Imagine, Your Body, Finally Found You, Marry The Night, Tonight is The Night, Va Va Voom, Scream and Shout, Feel this Moment, Alive, I Love It, #thatPOWER, Live it Up, Play Hard, The Other Side, Slow Down, Live For the Night, Right Now, Turn the Night Up, Work Bitch, Neon Lights
They all have standard dance production and feel good lyrics designed for CHR. Of course you have other styles like Bruno, Adele, Lumineers, Fun, and many others present duting this time, but the dance pop creations above seem to be taking a decline, at least to me.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 6, 2013 17:18:17 GMT -5
"The A-Team" isn't described as some indie-acoustic-rock crossover -- it's a pop song. I don't know if I'd have called it a pop song. Maybe folk. Light pop, maybe? Singer/songwriter? But pop wouldn't be my first descriptor for that one.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 17:27:03 GMT -5
"The A-Team" isn't described as some indie-acoustic-rock crossover -- it's a pop song. I don't know if I'd have called it a pop song. Maybe folk. Light pop, maybe? Singer/songwriter? But pop wouldn't be my first descriptor for that one. I'm honestly really bad with that. :x I had to think for a few moments over what to call it. I was originally gonna say "folk" but I think the lyrical style doesn't feel very folksy. I don't see Ed Sheeran songs being out of place on pop radio though.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 17:55:32 GMT -5
I just feel like before the folk influx last winter, many songs charting high in airplay often shared many qualities with eachother. The music from "the other period" often had feel good party centric lyrics, a dance tempo/beat but was not pure EDM, and predictable chord progression. Big time producers like Red One, Dr Luke, and Shellback often made songs in this style especially before this year. This type of music is what is called dance pop by many and turbo pop by billboard I dont know if you agree but all the examples below sound very similar to eachother in more ways than one: Love Game, Goodbye, Fire Burning, I Got a Feeling, Sexy Chick, Telephone, Tik Tok, Blah Blah Blah, Meet Me Halfway, Shut it Down, If We Ever Meet Again, Break Your Heart, Somebody to Love, OMG, Your Love is My Drug, California Gurls, I Like it, Dynamite, DJ Got Us Falling in Love, Club Can't Handle Me, Gettin Over You, Take it Off, Only Girl (In The World), Tonight (Im Lovin You), Hey Baby (Drop it to the Floor), Who Dat Girl, We R Who We R, Blow, Firework, Yeah 3x, Born This Way, Give Me Everything, Hold It Against Me, Whos That Chick, S&M, On The Floor, Where Dem Girls At, Party Rock Anthem, Dirty Dancer, I Wanna Go, Dont Wanna Go Home, Without You, We Found Love, International Love, Sexy and I Know it, Good Feeling, Love You Like a Love Song, Turn Me On, Wild Ones, Starships, Dance Again, Breathing, Turn Up the Music, Sorry For Party Rocking, Where Have You Been, Chasing the Sun, Lets Go, Pound the Alarm, Scream, Dont Wake Me Up, Numb, I Cry, I Can Only Imagine, Your Body, Finally Found You, Marry The Night, Tonight is The Night, Va Va Voom, Scream and Shout, Feel this Moment, Alive, I Love It, #thatPOWER, Live it Up, Play Hard, The Other Side, Slow Down, Live For the Night, Right Now, Turn the Night Up, Work Bitch, Neon Lights This is what I keep trying to make you see: You keep basing your argument on arbitrary logic and groupings. Using the kind of methodology you're talking about, you could easily write off "Your Body" as something R&B with synths. Yet somehow that counts even though "We Can't Stop" doesn't. You discount Bruno Mars from counting due to not being a true pop artist and having his own style yet list all of Nicki Minaj's songs. You count "I Cry" despite being a rap song with a sung pop chorus, while discounting "Get Lucky" nor count "Wake Me Up" when that's EDM with country. You count "Marry the Night" but discount "American Girl" even though they both performed relatively similarly. You discount "Closer" when it literally can be compared to half of the songs on that list. "Where Have You Been" counts but the mix being played of "Summertime Sadness" isn't "standard" fare? "OMG" represents standard pop but "Just Give Me A Reason" just isn't in that world? It just doesn't hold up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 18:12:01 GMT -5
Obviously I didn't include every single dancepop song that came out since 2009, thats just what came to mind. American Girl fits right in there with the rest. Bruno has has never done electropop. JGMAR is not dance pop and We Cant Stop isnt either.
Clearly we have different ways of grouping music, that is all. Ed sheeran would fall cleanly under the folk wave for me, but you think its pop music. Thats fine man. Sure you don't agree with me, others dont either.
Over the last three pages I tried to show you what I meant, and I completely understand your viewpoint. The only thing I can conclude is that we have two completely different styles of looking at various songs and artists. I can't help it if you don't know why I look at music the way I do lol
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 18:17:42 GMT -5
But then why is "Your Body" dance pop if "We Can't Stop isn't? Applause is dance pop. I'm sure her next single will be, too. Infact, Lady Gaga went MORE electro pop for ARTPOP than Born This Way which was rock-tinged.
You're trying to make an overall point about a music scene.
You're welcome to group songs any way that you wish.
...But it's arbitrary. It's idiosyncratic. It's completely your own. To the extent that all of this is subjective to a degree, what's the point of making wide-ranging commentary of the pop scene when your logic holds no thread or discernible pattern to it?
This is the issue I've had with how you've presented your arguments in this thread. You tried to make some big original point regardless of what was in the title, and then move heaven and earth to avoid backing yourself up unless I call you out on it two or three times.
This time you went "Well, I can't help it if we just classify music differently" -- instead of just backing yourself up and continuing to expand your argument based on the merits of your own logic that you threw out there in the first place.
Have whatever opinion you want to have in a vacuum. But don't throw out commentary that, by posting as a new topic here, implicitly wish for everyone to agree with or at least debate the merits of, and then be so reluctant to continue it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 18:28:38 GMT -5
...But it's arbitrary. It's idiosyncratic. It's completely your own. To the extent that all of this is subjective to a degree, what's the point of making wide-ranging commentary of the pop scene when your logic holds no thread or discernible pattern to it? It was just my observations of FUTURE MUSIC RELEASES and how an abundance of Alternative and ballads represented a shift from the past few months of releases. You chose to focus on music that was released already, and I already acknowledged in my first post that uptempo music made a strong resurgence over the summer. Whether my logic is bad or not, that is your opinion. Some people disagreed with me as strongly as you while others agreed that we are in a transition. Different opinions make a great discussion
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 6, 2013 18:42:13 GMT -5
Well, hats off to you. You've finally gotten to me to a point where I see no point in my contributing any further to the discussion -- I'm sure everyone here will be thrilled.
I think people have been wondering why I've seemed so irritated in this topic; what I've been reacting to. That's exactly what pushed a button of mine, I think.
That you don't care if your logic is bad.
That's been your subtext your entire time in the thread, from the very first post to every subsequent reply. This is why I was so hung up on the topic title, because it was apparent to me:
You wanted to have your opinion that Pop music is in decline. You don't care if your logic is bad or if it makes little if any sense. You asked people to discuss an idea that you yourself barely were willing to make sure if the dots connected properly before making it.
You solicited opinions without actually being open enough to listen to them. Being open to other peoples' opinions doesn't mean thinking the other person is right, it means at least acknowledging what they say so as to better develop your own idea. But you don't actually care about that.
Stupid me for debating with someone like that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 18:56:01 GMT -5
Pop a prozac, light up a joint and down it with a bottle of Rum and then flyyyy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2013 19:33:10 GMT -5
I dont understand why you are SO CRITICAL of everything I say. You literally question one thing I say with criticism and another question. I literally don't know how to answer you without repeating something I already told you.
This is the summary of our convo:
Me: The fall releases have a different tone, I think were in transition.
theflying: Your title puts me off
Me: Fixed it didn't mean to tick you off
TF: Your title is still bad, your question is absurd
Me: Pop radio is not dead. Here are the cycles in the past and i think another transition is happening.
TF: These thing come and go in cycles. There were many pop hits over the past year. Your statement in unrealistic, but the alt streak fascinates me.
Me: I know pop isn't dead, but may be in decline. The recent trends are cool to me too. I wish radio was a split between hip hop and alt again with a touch of EDM.
TF: Your statement doesn't make sense. You correctly noticed CHR trends, but they don't equate with pop decline. Pop-rock from the mid 2000's is an example of a dated sound
Me: I don't know why I irritated you and don't want to argue. I thought this topic was a good idea.
TF: Im not arguing, Im discussing. i don't know why you don't want to discuss. Your title doesn't equate with your overall topic.
Me: Ok my bad for misunderstanding
TF: Its not personal, just a discussion. Hey musicfanpete, OP's question is absurd.
Me: What would your ideal title be? I see how some can see diversity is a good think. Is changing my title a good idea?
TF: Don't change it because I disagree. Your title is attention grabbing and over the top. I feel like a jerk for discussing this with someone who wasn't prepared to discuss this.
Me: I just think a transition is happening. In the 2000's bubblegum pop gave way to hip hop and rock. Pop artists changed genres to stay relevant. Pop declined in every decade and made a comeback.
TF: Correct example. There are many pop acts like Taylor and Pink out today. Why do you think pop is declining?
Me: Future releases are almost entirely ballad/alt rock. I think that pop acts today are even changing genres to stay on top. Here are examples. That is why I think a transition is happening.
TF: I don't understand. You must think Ke$ha is urban because she raps. Roar is the definition of pop music. Your logic don't hold up
Me: Dance pop saturated the charts the last few years but doesn't have the same impact as today. If Bonnie Mckee releases an old Katy single, I don't think it would do as well as it did when Katy released it.
TF: It is a good analysis that dance pop is traditional pop. How come wrecking ball and JGMAR isn't traditional pop though? I also feel put off because you used an old Katy single as an example.
Me: I already told you that I know that TOS is a successful pop song. I already said JGMAR and WB are ballads. I understand your outlook, which is you see anything popular as being pop.
TF: You need to define what pop music is. I don't think there is a definition and that means its not in decline. Why do you discount GL for it being disco? It was popular, so its pop.
Me: There is no definition. But music like Sweater Weather and Let Her go are clearly distinct from Slow Down or TTNU by enrique. Does roar not sound different to you compared to Live it Up?
TF: The OP is using a too narrow definition and discounts anything that doesn't sound like 22. I think that anything popular is considered to be pop music in the same way average listeners do.
Me: I agree and see your argument. You and other listeners see anything on CHR as pop music and it is strong as ever because of diversity. Guy Zapoleon might see pop as declining, but other listeners don't.
TF: You still didn't tell me where pop declined from. What are you comparing it to? What is this sound that you think there is a decline from?
Me: Here is a list of a bunch of dance-pop songs from 2009 to present. This is what I'm comparing today's music landscape to. They're not EDM but dance based and have feel good lyrics.
TF: You don't make sense. You should think Your Body is R&B but you don't. How is Bruno different from Nicki? You didn't include American Girl in your list! Where is EDM on your list? How is OMG different from JGMAR?
Me: I didn't intend to include every dance pop song ever on my list. I think we have very different ways of labeling music; you think The A Team is pop and I think it is folk. I tired to show you my logic but you don't want to understand it.
TF: You have yet to show me direct evidence to back up your argument. Why is pop music declining when JGMAR, We Cant Stop, and The Other Side Were big hits? How is We Cant Stop different from Your Body?
Me: I think we are in a transition because of future music releases consisting of ballads and alt rock. I know there are many uptempo songs out this past year. You say my logic is bad but that's your opinion. Other people agree with it and others think its bad too.
TF: Ok you pissed me off. Your logic is bad and you don't care. You don't even know how to discuss well. You have no hope and I feel stupid for talking to you. I'm out.
You see man? There is no end to it. I don't know what you want. The only thing that would seem to make you happy is if I delete this thread.
Stupid me for joining a forum with the expectation that I could get a decent discussion going or be receptive of a new member. I didn't think this thread was as stupid of an idea as it turned out to be. Peace out guys. It was a great few days while it lasted
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 7, 2013 0:17:09 GMT -5
It's a good thread. I'm not sure why theflying has such an issue with it since he's stated his side and many others have offered opinions as well. Maybe you both just need to agree on a list of words to define first before actually going into any discussion about this topic. You might not agree but at least you'll know where you differ in opinion.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 7, 2013 1:10:40 GMT -5
This guy throws out a major opinion, and I have to pull his hair while he hems and haws for what seems like a dozen posts ("Oh! What should the topic title be then?" "Sorry, I'll change it'" "Oh sorry didn't realize it wasn't personal!") instead of just continuing to address what he said in the first place.
He FINALLY addresses it, his logic is challenged and he hems and haws for a few more posts, before he posts his list of songs. His logic is challenged and he goes "Lol why are you so critical I don't care how sound my reasoning is it's my opinion". Wtf?
No point. Silly me.
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musicfanpete
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Post by musicfanpete on Oct 7, 2013 6:22:13 GMT -5
moauthor=" theflying" source="/post/4507182/thread" timestamp="1381126240"]This guy throws out a major opinion, and I have to pull his hair while he hems and haws for what seems like a dozen posts ("Oh! What should the topic title be then?" "Sorry, I'll change it'" "Oh sorry didn't realize it wasn't personal!") instead of just continuing to address what he said in the first place. He FINALLY addresses it, his logic is challenged and he hems and haws for a few more posts, before he posts his list of songs. His logic is challenged and he goes "Lol why are you so critical I don't care how sound my reasoning is it's my opinion". Wtf? No point. Silly me.[/quote] Maybe when you stop acting like everyone is beneath you, people will respect you more and will be able to actually engage in a civil discussion here. Until then, no one cares about your constant rants against people you don't agree with!
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Oct 7, 2013 8:54:01 GMT -5
I think someone spoke, but we all know how irritated I get with Lessers.
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Dielawn
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Post by Dielawn on Oct 8, 2013 18:49:55 GMT -5
Stay For the Musik - FANTASTIC post, and you are 100% right in every keen observation you made. I feel like people who can't see your point are just not as insightful into music production/trends. Pure-pop is in decline and 2013 has been the equivalent to what 2001 was. 2014 I think will be officially 'The End' for everything we've known for the last 4 years. Is it weird that it makes me really emotional and sad to see this era of 2009-2013-style pop music end? Lol
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 8, 2013 19:32:45 GMT -5
I'f be emotional too. These past few years have been incredible for pop music. Though I do kind of miss my devotion to folky and lighter music that has taken a back seat for electropop.
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Dielawn
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Post by Dielawn on Oct 8, 2013 22:03:45 GMT -5
I'f be emotional too. These past few years have been incredible for pop music. Though I do kind of miss my devotion to folky and lighter music that has taken a back seat for electropop. And now he said we're even starting to see EDM records dropoff in adds to CHR? Cant say I didnt see that one coming! After every period of heavily-synthesized pop music comes an era of the total opposite, people get sick of it and want music with 'real instruments'. Has anyone noticed how fast Safe & Sound and Summertime Sadness are dropping right now? That felt like an awfully quick run for both.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2013 22:15:10 GMT -5
I think Pop music is headed to a better place, we are seeing more disco influences as well as a bit of the organic place it was in the 90's and early 00's. As the genre borrows heavily from the past the quality seems to be going up, can't wait to see where its going because the last few years have been overall dreadful and the music subpar.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 8, 2013 22:48:22 GMT -5
I'f be emotional too. These past few years have been incredible for pop music. Though I do kind of miss my devotion to folky and lighter music that has taken a back seat for electropop. And now he said we're even starting to see EDM records dropoff in adds to CHR? Cant say I didnt see that one coming! After every period of heavily-synthesized pop music comes an era of the total opposite, people get sick of it and want music with 'real instruments'. Has anyone noticed how fast Safe & Sound and Summertime Sadness are dropping right now? That felt like an awfully quick run for both. Maybe my love for the EDM period of late has been because I only recently begun to see it as a legitimate form of making music. I used to be somewhat of a "music purist" where I believed that music *had* to be made with real instruments. And being somewhat of a songwriter and maker myself, I can't play any instruments and had only been able to use computer software to make them. When I first heard albums by Imogen Heap and later Postal Service, I realized that computerized songs were not only legitimate but had a LOT to offer, so when this style of music took over, it kind of gave me new life in how I look at music. So while I've ALWAYS been into singer/songwriter pop and more folky stuff, EDM is pretty much a polar opposite to me and I think that's part of why I personally responded so well to it and still continue to do so. As a result, I've been more welcoming to what I create and think I've come up with some pretty good stuff since then on my own. But then as I said, I do miss the days of connecting emotionally to a good solid guitar or piano pop album, something I haven't done in a long time because I've been so into this style of pop music. There's room for both in my eyes but I'm sure sooner or later, mainstream audiences won't feel that way. Like you said, after long periods of one extreme, people want a break to something else. Most of the pop hits recently have been computerized and synthetic and people want authenticity, which is what we've been getting a lot of and I'm sure we'll get more of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2013 23:34:19 GMT -5
I think EDM will be around for a while. There might not be 4 songs charting at once in a year or so when EDM doesn't seem like a new thing anymore, but I'm sure future hits are around the corner. Zedd's song is taking off really well and I'm sure Calvin's new song will be a hit even though its had a moderate amount of adds this week. Summertime Sadness definitely peaked a bit quickly, but that may be because of the season change.
Its a good point that folk is largely the polar opposite of EDM. I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but one thing that dance and many folk hits seem to have in common is the high tempo. Just listen to I Will Wait, Home, or even new pop-folk like Counting Stars; they all have a BPM of 115 or so. Not all recent folk hits like The A Team have this aspect, but I think the high tempo of many folk songs today may register enough familiarity among listeners to allow for an easier crossover to CHR.
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Oct 9, 2013 0:13:33 GMT -5
Im going to add that I too think pop radio is in transition. I also think the radio numbers are inflated. So while some may say ratings are up, I am not sure that is true. The measurements are not accurate imo because the data is based on how the population has grown and not necessarily in how many people are listening. While pop didnt used to be a genre it became one when radio became ultra corporatized back in the early 2000s. I am looking forward to when radio is surpassed by streaming.
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Cody
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Post by Cody on Oct 9, 2013 0:23:41 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure there's a mass transition going on or anything. I think each genre is still just as represented as it always was, it just changes its form.
For example, the Indie Alternative crossovers combined with what is left of pop punk on the format (Fall Out Boy/Paramore) right now totals up to the same amount of alt/rock/pop punk stuff that would've been on the chart altogether at any given time 4-5 years ago. That is to say that years ago, there's be roughly the same amount of songs charting that would fall under some form of "rock" music as there is now. Then there was just more of a mix, now it's almost all in indie form.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 9, 2013 11:45:54 GMT -5
We could pick random charts from 5 and 10 years ago and see how they stack up in terms of genres represented.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 12:37:41 GMT -5
In 2011 rock was almost non existant besides Hot Chelle Rae and Foster the People. 10 years ago rock was pretty big on CHR. I wouldnt say rock is back up to old levels yet but its definately been on an upwards trend after 2011 was over.
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