Taylor Swift – "cardigan"

[deepston]

Sept 7, 2020 6:45:39 GMT -5 NeRD said:

Sept 7, 2020 5:59:28 GMT -5 deepston said:

Far worse ballads have been overplayed by pop radio (Before You Go, Perfect, Falling, ...). The real reason they don't spam her songs is because she is a woman. If Harry Styles sang this it would be top 5 in CHR already even if his 3 last singles had underperformed.

The first part of this comment is solely your opinion, and the second part is a baseless claim with no proof. It's so annoying when stans do this.

Give me examples of female ballads that have smashed on radio in recent years? Even the worldwide smash Shallow found trouble 😂

Don't tell me females need to step up their game cause their game is so much higher than mediocre pop ballads like Perfect.

[Fears in the Fire]

Sept 7, 2020 6:53:25 GMT -5 deepston said:

Sept 7, 2020 6:45:39 GMT -5 NeRD said:

The first part of this comment is solely your opinion, and the second part is a baseless claim with no proof. It's so annoying when stans do this.

Give me examples of female ballads that have smashed on radio in recent years? Even the worldwide smash Shallow found trouble 😂

Lose you to Love Me, Never be the Same, Love on the Brain. But this is irrelevant to the cardigan discussion because cardigan is not a pop song, and that’s the reason it’s not doing that well on pop radio.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the song and I love Taylor, but it’s annoying how people try to blame everything on her being a woman.

Don't tell me females need to step up their game cause their game is so much higher than mediocre pop ballads like Perfect.

Again, this is your opinion. Also, Beyoncé was in Perfect.

[deepston]

Sept 7, 2020 10:30:07 GMT -5 Fears in the Fire said:

Sept 7, 2020 6:53:25 GMT -5 deepston said:

Give me examples of female ballads that have smashed on radio in recent years? Even the worldwide smash Shallow found trouble 😂

Lose you to Love Me, Never be the Same, Love on the Brain. But this is irrelevant to the cardigan discussion because cardigan is not a pop song, and that’s the reason it’s not doing that well on pop radio.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the song and I love Taylor, but it’s annoying how people try to blame everything on her being a woman.

Don't tell me females need to step up their game cause their game is so much higher than mediocre pop ballads like Perfect.

Again, this is your opinion. Also, Beyoncé was in Perfect.

I see your point, but there is no denying that pop radio (and radio in general) gives way more chances to male artists than females, even if the output of the latter receive worldwide acclaim and success. 

(and Beyoncé jumped on Perfect after the song was already a radio hit)

[👑 Eloquent ™]

To compound on a point earlier made, this and the rest of the album weren't designed for pop radio play. Not surprising, given that, that the song wouldn't be burning up radio charts.

It served its purpose. The album is the key focus this era and its performing remarkably.

[Deleted]

Sept 7, 2020 11:00:05 GMT -5 deepston said:

Sept 7, 2020 10:30:07 GMT -5 Fears in the Fire said:

Lose you to Love Me, Never be the Same, Love on the Brain. But this is irrelevant to the cardigan discussion because cardigan is not a pop song, and that’s the reason it’s not doing that well on pop radio.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the song and I love Taylor, but it’s annoying how people try to blame everything on her being a woman.

Again, this is your opinion. Also, Beyoncé was in Perfect.

I see your point, but there is no denying that pop radio (and radio in general) gives way more chances to male artists than females, even if the output of the latter receive worldwide acclaim and success. 

(and Beyoncé jumped on Perfect after the song was already a radio hit)

Could you provide some evidence of this? I simply don't see the pattern you described based on looking at the charts. For example, Gabby Barret is sitting in the top 10 with a song that isn't too different from what Taylor was releasing at the very start of her long career.

I believe that, historically, women are strongly supported by pop radio. In fact, women are well represented the genre of pop music as a whole, while males tend to specialize in other genres such as hip hop, rock, and EDM. I can't think of any male artist that completely dominated pop radio during the heights of their careers like Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Mariah Carey, Kesha, and many others did. The only ones that approach them are Justin Bieber, Justin Timberlake, Pitbull, and Flo Rida. Bearing that in mind, the Justins have as about many flops as they do hits and often take long career breaks in between. Flo Rida and Pitbull are rappers (Hip Hop IS male dominant), but are not taken seriously in the scope of success on this format. 

Yes, right now, the charts have high male representation. At the same time pop music as a genre is about as unpopular as its ever been. The airwaves were filled with pop and dance pop about half a decade ago, but a variety of non-pop genres are now visiting the airplay charts. It's perhaps just how the pendulum swings in this format, and pop music will once again dominate in a few years just as it has come and gone in the past. 

[NeRD]

Ugh...

Hopefully we see an adds date for the 1 soon. Let Exile do its thing at Triple A for the time being.

[kimberly]

Sept 7, 2020 11:45:51 GMT -5 @jabbawockee said:

Sept 7, 2020 11:00:05 GMT -5 deepston said:

I see your point, but there is no denying that pop radio (and radio in general) gives way more chances to male artists than females, even if the output of the latter receive worldwide acclaim and success. 

(and Beyoncé jumped on Perfect after the song was already a radio hit)

Could you provide some evidence of this? I simply don't see the pattern you described based on looking at the charts. For example, Gabby Barret is sitting in the top 10 with a song that isn't too different from what Taylor was releasing at the very start of her long career.

previously mentioned "Shallow"
anything from Beyoncé since "Sweet Dreams", most strikingly "Drunk in Love" and "7/11"
Taylor's own "Lover"
Kesha's "Praying"

if you follow the charts, you can see that pop radio has a habit of dropping female artists entirely after a certain point in their career. they give men much more flexibility and support their new releases, like Timberlake's several comebacks, Black Eyed Peas' return, and even Ed Sheeran's floppiest material ("South of the Border" got to #15 on pop despite failing in every other metric). 

[deepston]

Sept 7, 2020 11:45:51 GMT -5 @jabbawockee said:

Sept 7, 2020 11:00:05 GMT -5 deepston said:

I see your point, but there is no denying that pop radio (and radio in general) gives way more chances to male artists than females, even if the output of the latter receive worldwide acclaim and success. 

(and Beyoncé jumped on Perfect after the song was already a radio hit)

Could you provide some evidence of this? I simply don't see the pattern you described based on looking at the charts. For example, Gabby Barret is sitting in the top 10 with a song that isn't too different from what Taylor was releasing at the very start of her long career.

I believe that, historically, women are strongly supported by pop radio. In fact, women are well represented the genre of pop music as a whole, while males tend to specialize in other genres such as hip hop, rock, and EDM. I can't think of any male artist that completely dominated pop radio during the heights of their careers like Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Mariah Carey, Kesha, and many others did. The only ones that approach them are Justin Bieber, Justin Timberlake, Pitbull, and Flo Rida. Bearing that in mind, the Justins have as about many flops as they do hits and often take long career breaks in between. Flo Rida and Pitbull are rappers (Hip Hop IS male dominant), but are not taken seriously in the scope of success on this format. 

Yes, right now, the charts have high male representation. At the same time pop music as a genre is about as unpopular as its ever been. The airwaves were filled with pop and dance pop about half a decade ago, but a variety of non-pop genres are now visiting the airplay charts. It's perhaps just how the pendulum swings in this format, and pop music will once again dominate in a few years just as it has come and gone in the past. 

Only 8 out of the top 30 radio songs are female-lead, and 4 of them are from Doja Cat and Dua Lipa. It's obvious radio does not give the same attention to female artists. 

It's true female's peaks on pop radio are huge, but they are short-lived. Males usually get much more support throughout their career as opposed to just 2-3 years. For example, Justin Bieber is able to score hit after hit while his female contemporaries struggle to crack the top 10 in their core formats, nowadays.
And if we're going by "folklore is not the type of album that would be player by pop radio", we have multiple examples of males that released albums that lean on other genres and that were still able to find success: most recently, Fine Line by Harry Styles.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Pop radio, right now, like streaming, is leaning toward male artists so I think there could be some truth to this and other songs just being not what’s ‘in’ for the time being. I don’t think it’s a permanent thing because there have been times when female-dominated pop music was the big in thing, and trends in music tend be cyclical. But this song also isn’t a pop song and I don’t think it’s super radio friendly so I’d say it did better than I might have expected - even for Taylor. If it were done by Harry Styles? Yeah, it could have done better but only because Harry Styles is one of the biggest names in pop radio right now. If it were done by Nick Carter? It wouldn’t even register a blip. I think (and hope) pop cycles back toward women sooner than later but I think it’ll happen as trends shift again anyway. Taylor has nothing to worry about.

[Positive Tension]

Taylor's been in the game for 13-14 years now, so the fact that this broke into the top twenty despite not being made for radio isn't too shabby. I think she still has a few hits left in her, but she won't reach the heights of her debut, Fearless, Speak Now, Red, or 1989, so I think it was a wise move to release a critically acclaimed album.

[Deleted]

^ deepston and kimberly I’m not too sure if people like Shawn Mendes, Charlie Puth, Zedd, Niall Horan, Imagine Dragons, and Liam Payne would agree with those points.

Female representation is sparse today, just as it was in say, 2004 for example when hip hop and alt rock was dominant. It doesn’t mean that every radio station out there has decided to write off women in general. Plus, radio is listener-driven in the end.

Sure, some music is pushed harder than others by the labels and by iHeartRadio, but listeners request, buy, and stream music themselves in the end. If you think the top 30 looks bad, take a peek at the spotify US top 50 chart. If anything, that makes listeners like you and I look quite sexist based on our listening habits.

[kimberly]

Sept 7, 2020 12:42:48 GMT -5 @jabbawockee said:

^ deepston and kimberly  I’m not too sure if people like Shawn Mendes, Charlie Puth, Zedd, Niall Horan, Imagine Dragons, and Liam Payne would agree with those points.

Female representation is sparse today, just as it was in say, 2004 for example when hip hop and alt rock was dominant. It doesn’t mean that every radio station out there has decided to write off women in general. Plus, radio is listener-driven in the end.

Sure, some music is pushed harder than others by the labels and by iHeartRadio, but listeners request, buy, and stream music themselves in the end. If you think the top 30 looks bad, take a peek at the spotify US top 50 chart. If anything, that makes listeners like you and I look quite sexist based on our listening habits.

I don't recall Liam Payne or Charlie Puth being as huge as any of the women I mentioned lol. 

To your other point, music listeners ARE sexist. Men do not listen to women, while women listen to men and women about equally. Patriarchy and our societal perception of "masculinity" is the reason for this.

The industry is also sexist. There are fewer radio programmers, fewer label executives, fewer producers and fewer artists charting on the Hot 100 and fewer artist getting nominated for a Grammy that are women. (Between 2013 and 2018, only 9% of Grammy nominees were women.) In 2018, women were only found to be artists of 17,1% of songs on the top charts, according to a report by the USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative.

[Deleted]

Sept 7, 2020 13:02:47 GMT -5 kimberly said:

Sept 7, 2020 12:42:48 GMT -5 @jabbawockee said:

^ deepston and kimberly  I’m not too sure if people like Shawn Mendes, Charlie Puth, Zedd, Niall Horan, Imagine Dragons, and Liam Payne would agree with those points.

Female representation is sparse today, just as it was in say, 2004 for example when hip hop and alt rock was dominant. It doesn’t mean that every radio station out there has decided to write off women in general. Plus, radio is listener-driven in the end.

Sure, some music is pushed harder than others by the labels and by iHeartRadio, but listeners request, buy, and stream music themselves in the end. If you think the top 30 looks bad, take a peek at the spotify US top 50 chart. If anything, that makes listeners like you and I look quite sexist based on our listening habits.

I don't recall Liam Payne or Charlie Puth being as huge as any of the women I mentioned lol. 

To your other point, music listeners ARE sexist. Men do not listen to women, while women listen to men and women about equally. Patriarchy and our societal perception of "masculinity" is the reason for this.

The industry is also sexist. There are fewer radio programmers, fewer label executives, fewer producers and fewer artists charting on the Hot 100 and fewer artist getting nominated for a Grammy that are women. (Between 2013 and 2018, only 9% of Grammy nominees were women.) In 2018, women were only found to be artists of 17,1% of songs on the top charts, according to a report by the USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative.

I threw some under-performers in there because they probably should have been offered more radio support based on name alone. 

I agree about the corporate side of your argument. Until boomers with backwards ideals are ousted from power, the “game” will always be rigged in that sense.

The Grammys will remain a problem because every other genre is male dominated. As you said, listeners are sexist. People that listen to rock and country tend to not care to listen to women. The same goes for listeners of rap / hip hop, but the media seems unwilling to paint a large portion of that target demographic as misogynistic. That alone can be troubling because hip hop is the most popular genre in the US. Until all genres have equal representation, award programs will be heavily weighted towards males.

As for why Cardigan is flopping on this format, no I don’t think it is just because she is a woman.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Nick needs to fly in like the hero he is and bless us with a detailed post on his stance on this sexism in radio talk. Our eyes would be blessed to see it. lol

[Choco]

Sexism and ageism are real. I just don't think they're the main culprit in this case.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Sept 7, 2020 18:19:43 GMT -5 Choco said:

Sexism and ageism are real. I just don't think they're the main culprit in this case.

Ditto tbh. It was obvious from the onset to me "cardigan" wasn't going to be a big radio hit (just isn't the style that's radio fodder). I was more surprised at how quickly it was pushed into the top 20 tbh, but given the name attached and coupled with the album's success it was bound to receive some base level of support. A middling performance in the end was to be expected in regard to radio performance and should be a good indicator of things to come (yet somehow I still think we are gonna see surprise faces when the next single doesn't light up radio either). lol

[Choco]

Yup. If this was any of the first three Lover singles I'd be shocked at this peak. All three had radio friendly qualities. I'm still mistified by the title-track's run and peak.

But this? This I think is to be expected.

And to counter the sexism thing a bit more, none of our current male pop stars has the balls to do such an unexpected release and go way less radio friendly. Even Ed's "lowkey" features project was tailor made for CHR.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

I was a bit surprised at radio's reception to "Lover", but I question how much of my surprise was swayed by post-release hype: people enjoying the quality in the song/saying it beckoned old Taylor (as her newer material wasn't hitting hard) and thinking it could potentiality be another "Perfect". Like, I distinctly remember enjoying the song for its lyricism and sentiment when it was released pre-album, but immediately hoping it wasn't in the running to be released, knowing it didn't sound like something radio would easily latch onto as the song itself was IMO, tho sweet, a grower and we needed an instant cut for radio following the performance of the first two singles. It's still arguably one of, if not the strongest song on its parent album tho regardless and I absolutely appreciate the sentiment tied to the song for Taylor.

Eta: Yeah, I called it a strong album cut and not single material. Maybe we should listen to our initial reaction/gut instinct more often. lol

pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/183161/taylor-swift-lover?page=42

[Au$tin]

Sept 6, 2020 22:47:52 GMT -5 nick64 said:

Sept 6, 2020 22:36:54 GMT -5 frashcoholic said:

so it's too late to summon August in September??

I mean technically it’s about August being over so 🤷🏻‍♂️

Like that stopped anyone from harping about Cruel Summer being released in summer.

[ificanthaveyou]

Sept 7, 2020 19:09:26 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

I was a bit surprised at radio's reception to "Lover", but I question how much of my surprise was swayed by post-release hype: people enjoying the quality in the song/saying it beckoned old Taylor (as her newer material wasn't hitting hard) and thinking it could potentiality be another "Perfect". Like, I distinctly remember enjoying the song for its lyricism and sentiment when it was released pre-album, but immediately hoping it wasn't in the running to be released, knowing it didn't sound like something radio would easily latch onto as the song itself was IMO, tho sweet, a grower and we needed an instant cut for radio following the performance of the first two singles. It's still arguably one of, if not the strongest song on its parent album tho regardless and I absolutely appreciate the sentiment tied to the song for Taylor.

Eta: Yeah, I called it a strong album cut and not single material. Maybe we should listen to our initial reaction/gut instinct more often. lol

pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/183161/taylor-swift-lover?page=42

I think had they remixed it with Ed instead of Shawn, it would have gained a lot more traction. But it was definitely the little engine that could.

[frenchuser]

Sept 7, 2020 23:26:10 GMT -5 ificanthaveyou said:

Sept 7, 2020 19:09:26 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

I was a bit surprised at radio's reception to "Lover", but I question how much of my surprise was swayed by post-release hype: people enjoying the quality in the song/saying it beckoned old Taylor (as her newer material wasn't hitting hard) and thinking it could potentiality be another "Perfect". Like, I distinctly remember enjoying the song for its lyricism and sentiment when it was released pre-album, but immediately hoping it wasn't in the running to be released, knowing it didn't sound like something radio would easily latch onto as the song itself was IMO, tho sweet, a grower and we needed an instant cut for radio following the performance of the first two singles. It's still arguably one of, if not the strongest song on its parent album tho regardless and I absolutely appreciate the sentiment tied to the song for Taylor.

Eta: Yeah, I called it a strong album cut and not single material. Maybe we should listen to our initial reaction/gut instinct more often. lol

pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/183161/taylor-swift-lover?page=42

I think had they remixed it with Ed instead of Shawn, it would have gained a lot more traction. But it was definitely the little engine that could.

Or Adam Levine or Sam Smith

[Az Paynter]

POP:
17 18 TAYLOR SWIFT cardigan 5359 5546 -187 19.734

-64 Spins
-84 Bullet
-0.368 Audience

HOT AC:
12 10 TAYLOR SWIFT cardigan 3442 3361 81 16.598

+10 Spins
-11 Bullet
+0.064 Audience

AC:
14 13 TAYLOR SWIFT cardigan 299 277 22 1.584

-3 Spins
-9 Bullet
-0.023 Audience

[Choco]

it would've been fun,
if you would've been the one..

[divasummer]

Sept 7, 2020 19:09:26 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

I was a bit surprised at radio's reception to "Lover", but I question how much of my surprise was swayed by post-release hype: people enjoying the quality in the song/saying it beckoned old Taylor (as her newer material wasn't hitting hard) and thinking it could potentiality be another "Perfect". Like, I distinctly remember enjoying the song for its lyricism and sentiment when it was released pre-album, but immediately hoping it wasn't in the running to be released, knowing it didn't sound like something radio would easily latch onto as the song itself was IMO, tho sweet, a grower and we needed an instant cut for radio following the performance of the first two singles. It's still arguably one of, if not the strongest song on its parent album tho regardless and I absolutely appreciate the sentiment tied to the song for Taylor.

Eta: Yeah, I called it a strong album cut and not single material. Maybe we should listen to our initial reaction/gut instinct more often. lol

pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/183161/taylor-swift-lover?page=42

"Lover" wasn't as loved as Taylor fans think and wanted it to be.
I don't know anyone who cared about it. They didn't hate it but didn't go crazy for it like everyone here.
You are correct that it sounded a bit like "Perfect" which was still getting recurrent replay at the time I bet. lol
Personally I didn't think it sounded like "old" Taylor.
Her songs were always catchy sweet midtempo stuff that got locked in your head.
The only part I remember about this song is her saying the word "Lover" which sounded annoying to me.
I may just be bitter Betty but I can see why it didn't smash...

[wjr15]

Oh wow, I’m surprised at this not even able to go top 15 on her main format. This song reminds me of the other ballads over the past few years so I was at least expecting a top 10 on Pop. It seems like Pop radio is moving onto the next generation of pop stars. On the bright side, this was still able to pull off a Hot 100 #1 for debut week.

[Deleted]

I wish this did more. I wouldn’t mind hearing this in medium rotation for a few months. As far as slow songs go, I certainly like it alot more than ITWWE by JP Saxe, or Heather by Conan Grey for that matter.

[deepston]

Sept 7, 2020 19:09:26 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

I was a bit surprised at radio's reception to "Lover", but I question how much of my surprise was swayed by post-release hype: people enjoying the quality in the song/saying it beckoned old Taylor (as her newer material wasn't hitting hard) and thinking it could potentiality be another "Perfect". Like, I distinctly remember enjoying the song for its lyricism and sentiment when it was released pre-album, but immediately hoping it wasn't in the running to be released, knowing it didn't sound like something radio would easily latch onto as the song itself was IMO, tho sweet, a grower and we needed an instant cut for radio following the performance of the first two singles. It's still arguably one of, if not the strongest song on its parent album tho regardless and I absolutely appreciate the sentiment tied to the song for Taylor.

Eta: Yeah, I called it a strong album cut and not single material. Maybe we should listen to our initial reaction/gut instinct more often. lol

pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/183161/taylor-swift-lover?page=42

I believe the main issue with Lover was that her vocals were a bit jarring during the "my my myyy" hook. Otherwise, I have no idea why it underperformed. 

[levitating]

this actually did better than i expected! what’s important is that it already went #1 on the hot 100 and the album’s still doing phenomenally even with no major radio single.

[leonagwen]

For those people criticizing Lover, that song deserved better.

[Az Paynter]

POP:
17 18 TAYLOR SWIFT cardigan 5304 5581 -277 19.507

-55 Spins
-90 Bullet
-0.227 Audience

HOT AC:
12 10 TAYLOR SWIFT cardigan 3444 3356 88 16.562

+2 Spins
+7 Bullet
-0.036 Audience

AC:
14 13 TAYLOR SWIFT cardigan 311 283 28 1.685

+12 Spins
+6 Bullet
+0.101 Audience