dbhmr
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Post by dbhmr on Mar 3, 2021 11:32:59 GMT -5
I only just caught wind of this, uh, situation and ran to this thread. It did not disappoint lmfao. Ling-Ling stays collecting your stan dissertations and made-for-Twitter social justice speeches, and I thank them for that. To say nothing of the one who thinks Taylor’s self-involved tweet saved her from modern-day Auschwitz, which was bonus crazy even I wasn’t ready for this thread to achieve. There are about a million other more important things to analyze, but years from now I look forward to the study of how the pandemic sent so many celebrities into a tailspin—not unlike the way it has for everyone, but I imagine it’s acute in some unique (if less compelling/monumental) ways for people whose career requires and personality thrives from public attention and consumption.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 3, 2021 11:42:33 GMT -5
I can't believe the amount of gaslighting going on in this thread. Taylor wrote songs about her life. Media, as it always did, chose to focus on the men. The fact that all women have been/are subject to sexism doesn't make Taylor's experience invalid. If someone at Taylor's stature isn't going to use their platform to speak out on this, who should? This backwards logic of "Britney went through worse" "Janet Jackson was hurt more" "Kim Kardashian isn't saying anything about the bad jokes people make about her so Taylor should shut up" is DISGUSTING. Society is finally at a place where they can speak up. I wish Britney didn't have to go through what she has. That doesn't mean Taylor should sit there and take it????? Bunch of men dictating how a woman should feel about sexist jokes made about her. Taylor's stans are the ones gaslighting. You all keep focusing on "she's a songwriter writing about her life," yet keep leaving out all of the aspects of this specific dynamic that are separate from her songwriting. If it was just Swift's writing that caused speculation, I think people would be more sympathetic. But as has been pointed out many times in this discussion, Swift herself made her relationships part of her career narrative and used the publicity surrounding the relationships to draw attention to her music. Using overt references to exes in her music videos has nothing to do with her being a songwriter, for example. More so, Swift can certainly write about what she wants to write about and can express herself in her art, from lyrics to videos to whatever else. The point some of us are making is simply that if she is going to use her relationships to draw interest in her music (as she did for years), she shouldn't then complain when people focus on her relationships.
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Post by neverduplicated on Mar 3, 2021 12:28:43 GMT -5
There are about a million other more important things to analyze, but years from now I look forward to the study of how the pandemic sent so many celebrities into a tailspin—not unlike the way it has for everyone, but I imagine it’s acute in some unique (if less compelling/monumental) ways for people whose career requires and personality thrives from public attention and consumption. This point is blowing things out of proportion as much as many Swifties are. How exactly is Taylor in a tailspin? Taylor has been the most successful musician in the world for the past several years with hardly any promotion or communication on social media. She has not come off as desperate for attention in a very long time, she just gets crazy amounts of attention whenever she posts anything. It seems strange to me that people want to argue that she shouldn't say something if she feels slighted, and even stranger that people feel that she should only open her mouth to defend others and not herself. If someone said something negative and untrue about you on a television show, would you feel compelled to say something or be silent? She has the right to defend herself and her image, and I just don't know why people are so desperate to tear her down for doing so. Let's review some of the misogynist tropes that have appeared in the last few pages of this thread: She had it coming / was asking for it (thanks for reminding us so much, jenglisbe) Other people have more serious problems, so she has no right to complain I'm a man, and so my judgement of whether something is sexist is more valid than a woman who experiences sexism I don't like the way she did it She should have known there would be negative consequences for speaking out Why can't she just take a joke?
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dbhmr
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Post by dbhmr on Mar 3, 2021 13:14:11 GMT -5
There are about a million other more important things to analyze, but years from now I look forward to the study of how the pandemic sent so many celebrities into a tailspin—not unlike the way it has for everyone, but I imagine it’s acute in some unique (if less compelling/monumental) ways for people whose career requires and personality thrives from public attention and consumption. This point is blowing things out of proportion as much as many Swifties are. How exactly is Taylor in a tailspin? Taylor has been the most successful musician in the world for the past several years with hardly any promotion or communication on social media. She has not come off as desperate for attention in a very long time, she just gets crazy amounts of attention whenever she posts anything. It seems strange to me that people want to argue that she shouldn't say something if she feels slighted, and even stranger that people feel that she should only open her mouth to defend others and not herself. If someone said something negative and untrue about you on a television show, would you feel compelled to say something or be silent? She has the right to defend herself and her image, and I just don't know why people are so desperate to tear her down for doing so. Let's review some of the misogynist tropes that have appeared in the last few pages of this thread: She had it coming / was asking for it (thanks for reminding us so much, jenglisbe) Other people have more serious problems, so she has no right to complain I'm a man, and so my judgement of whether something is sexist is more valid than a woman who experiences sexism I don't like the way she did it She should have known there would be negative consequences for speaking out Why can't she just take a joke? Yeah, so the reason I said "celebrities in a tailspin" and not "Taylor in a tailspin" is because I was talking about...celebrities in general. There have been a lot of social media dust-ups and fuck-ups among celebrities in the last year and I think the pandemic/quarantine has a lot to do with that, in both similar and obviously different ways that it's affected everyone else. But go awf!
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Mar 3, 2021 13:21:06 GMT -5
Side note: I don't love the ever-persistent condescending, holier-than-thou attitude this forum seems to breed at times. Every single person (I mean, every single one) I have ever seen criticize "stan" behavior here has themselves participated in relentlessly and tirelessly defending their favorite artist at one time or another against this and that and could be labeled as such. It seems these days labeling someone as a crazy stan is the simplest and easiest way to immediately be dismissive of what their perfectly valid opinions could be and it typically is hurled at fans of an artist the individual isn't particularly a fan of. I agree at times, things stretch into questionable territory (maybe one instance in this thread), but for the most part people are just discussing a topic and maybe don't agree.
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Post by neverduplicated on Mar 3, 2021 13:26:43 GMT -5
This point is blowing things out of proportion as much as many Swifties are. How exactly is Taylor in a tailspin? Taylor has been the most successful musician in the world for the past several years with hardly any promotion or communication on social media. She has not come off as desperate for attention in a very long time, she just gets crazy amounts of attention whenever she posts anything. It seems strange to me that people want to argue that she shouldn't say something if she feels slighted, and even stranger that people feel that she should only open her mouth to defend others and not herself. If someone said something negative and untrue about you on a television show, would you feel compelled to say something or be silent? She has the right to defend herself and her image, and I just don't know why people are so desperate to tear her down for doing so. Let's review some of the misogynist tropes that have appeared in the last few pages of this thread: She had it coming / was asking for it (thanks for reminding us so much, jenglisbe) Other people have more serious problems, so she has no right to complain I'm a man, and so my judgement of whether something is sexist is more valid than a woman who experiences sexism I don't like the way she did it She should have known there would be negative consequences for speaking out Why can't she just take a joke? Yeah, so the reason I said "celebrities in a tailspin" and not "Taylor in a tailspin" is because I was talking about...celebrities in general. There have been a lot of social media dust-ups and f**k-ups among celebrities in the last year and I think the pandemic/quarantine has a lot to do with that, in both similar and obviously different ways that it's affected everyone else. But go awf! Thank you for clarifying, but I hope you can see why someone would think you are including Taylor in this since you brought it up in her thread in reference to a tweet she made.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Mar 3, 2021 13:30:30 GMT -5
I mean, the back and forth here is becoming the norm because I feel like everyone is just grouping everyone in a for vs against and talking at each other with no actual purpose. What’s the solution in this case? What are the next steps? Are there even any?
I think valid points have been made that Taylor (or any celebrity with a huge following) just made a single statement and people run with that, including media, who can amplify a message to give people the impression that Taylor has spent the last week wringing her hands in anger over a joke made in passing on a tv show no one heard of until she mentioned it on Twitter. Yet, at the same time, people with that level of following know that they just need to mention it once and it becomes a conversation point for days or weeks to come.
Could the situation have been handled better and if so, how? Are there other situations that can compare to this that were handled differently? There’s definitely a lot to unpack with this but when the discussion falls back into a this group vs the other group mentality where everyone who doesn’t agree is misogynist and everyone who does is a brainless stan, it all kind of becomes pointless.
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Mar 3, 2021 13:31:37 GMT -5
I mean, the back and forth here is becoming the norm because I feel like everyone is just grouping everyone in a for vs against and talking at each other with no actual purpose. What’s the solution in this case? What are the next steps? Are there even any? I think valid points have been made that Taylor (or any celebrity with a huge following) just made a single statement and people run with that, including media, who can amplify a message to give people the impression that Taylor has spent the last week wringing her hands in anger over a joke made in passing on a tv show no one heard of until she mentioned it on Twitter. Yet, at the same time, people with that level of following know that they just need to mention it once and it becomes a conversation point for days or weeks to come. Could the situation have been handled better and if so, how? Are there other situations that can compare to this that were handled differently? There’s definitely a lot to unpack with this but when the discussion falls back into a this group vs the other group mentality where everyone who doesn’t agree is misogynist and everyone who does is a brainless stan, it all kind of becomes pointless. Agreed
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 3, 2021 13:58:47 GMT -5
Let's review some of the misogynist tropes that have appeared in the last few pages of this thread: She had it coming / was asking for it (thanks for reminding us so much, jenglisbe) Other people have more serious problems, so she has no right to complain I'm a man, and so my judgement of whether something is sexist is more valid than a woman who experiences sexism I don't like the way she did it She should have known there would be negative consequences for speaking out Why can't she just take a joke? You are posting these things without context. Yes misogynist tropes happen, and may have even happened in this thread, but at the same time not every person who makes a statement you or anyone else disagrees with is using a misogynist tropes. Context matters, and it needs to be factored into the way someone's statements are viewed.
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Ling-Ling
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Post by Ling-Ling on Mar 3, 2021 14:02:29 GMT -5
It seems strange to me that people want to argue that she shouldn't say something if she feels slighted, and even stranger that people feel that she should only open her mouth to defend others and not herself. If someone said something negative and untrue about you on a television show, would you feel compelled to say something or be silent? She has the right to defend herself and her image, and I just don't know why people are so desperate to tear her down for doing so. Taylor absolutely has a right to speak her mind and address when she feels slighted. The point some of us are making, is this wasn't an instance where it was warranted. Where is Taylor Swift in 2021? She is absolutely at a peak. Critical success, commercial success, borderline rapturous media coverage almost solely focused on her music and her artistry. There is no mass attempt in the media to besmirch Taylor Swift. And the whole "Taylor messy relationship" schtick hasn't been a real thing for ages. Which is why literally everyone here and in the media has said the joke is dated and stale. So for her to come down from the clouds to address some petty joke on a fluff show and send her more devoted fans on the warpath is bewildering IMO. The optics are just piss poor. By even addressing something so minute and lazy, it not only gives the joke power it never had in the first place, but it also makes her look privileged af. Especially on the tail-end of something like Framing Britney Spears (since somebody wanted to bring that into the mix). And her fans digging themselves into the trenches, trying to make this some huge, sexist #metoo moment is misguided IMO. Just as misguided as her trying to tie it to women's history month and hard working women everywhere. What does that even have to do with anything? This is a specific joke about a specific celebrity that has a well-publicized history with this narrative. A narrative, as many have stated, she helped create. And it was a crusty, old joke to boot. It's absolutely nothing else. It is not slut-shaming. I wouldn't even classify it as sexist. And her addressing it is not going to create some movement where people are going to stop making jokes about celebrities love lives either. So what is the point? But seriously, I feel like I'm on a different planet in this situation. I try my best to at least attempt to get on the same page with people and see their point of view. But in this instance I think Taylor and a lot of her fans are out to lunch. So I should probably just chalk it up to agree to disagree. Except for all that Taylor takes a trip to Treblinka mess. That sh*t was just ridiculous you guys.
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joesuda
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Post by joesuda on Mar 3, 2021 15:38:52 GMT -5
A few thoughts on this mess, I know I am late, but have been busy. Taylor has every right to feel that way - the joke is tired, old and it has sexist undertones. Taylor was also right to bring attention to this. She has a huge following and she has power and she is in a position to call these things out (which is not true for all women) so that society can have discussions on these topics and hopefully change for the better. However with her power comes responsibility and most of Stan Twitter are like rabid dogs that attack with no cause. It is a little ridiculous to expect every celebrity to be held accountable for their fans as otherwise most Pop artist would be incriminated. Still, I feel Taylor should have maybe been a little more pointed/directed with her criticism and maybe have followed it up with a plea for her fans not to attack the actors/actresses.
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Mar 3, 2021 15:52:54 GMT -5
And it was a crusty, old joke to boot. It's absolutely nothing else. It is not slut-shaming. I wouldn't even classify it as sexist. I agree with a lot of what you said in this post, except this. Saying "you go through men faster than Taylor Swift" to a woman is slut-shaming that character and slut-shaming Taylor Swift. And it's a sexist joke because it slut-shames a woman, using a woman as example, therefore upholding the decades of misogyny that has been present in Hollywood. They could have slut-shamed Justin Bieber (who had more partners than Taylor Swift), which would still make it slut-shaming and a bad joke, but at least it wouldn't be as stale and sexist. Or, better yet, the tens of people the show had to go through to be released could have said "Hey man, this joke is not funny. Can we cut it?" But the issue here that Taylor Swift is addressing is that no one did that. No one at Netflix felt safe or encouraged enough to speak out. And that is a systematic issue. On the other hand, I have seen people say that the character that makes this joke is supposed to be the antagonist. Haven't watched the show, so I can't say anything to that end, but if that's true, people are leaving out important context here. Maybe the character is dealing with internalized misogyny or whatever. Appropriateness of the joke would still be up for debate then, but at least it would have worked in the context of the show.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 3, 2021 16:04:58 GMT -5
And it was a crusty, old joke to boot. It's absolutely nothing else. It is not slut-shaming. I wouldn't even classify it as sexist. I agree with a lot of what you said in this post, except this. Saying "you go through men faster than Taylor Swift" to a woman is slut-shaming that character and slut-shaming Taylor Swift. Maybe it's generational or something, but I don't see that comment as necessarily saying Taylor is a slut and sleeps around. I saw it as about her relationships/dating. If it does specifically reference sleeping around, it would actually change my view of things in this discussion. Yes, but then you yourself are talking about the comment without seeing its context, so...
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Ling-Ling
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Post by Ling-Ling on Mar 3, 2021 16:10:21 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what you said in this post, except this. Saying "you go through men faster than Taylor Swift" to a woman is slut-shaming that character and slut-shaming Taylor Swift. And it's a sexist joke because it slut-shames a woman, using a woman as example, therefore upholding the decades of misogyny that has been present in Hollywood. They could have slut-shamed Justin Bieber (who had more partners than Taylor Swift), which would still make it slut-shaming and a bad joke, but at least it wouldn't be as stale and sexist. Or, better yet, the tens of people the show had to go through to be released could have said "Hey man, this joke is not funny. Can we cut it?" I don't look at the joke that way at all. In the 70's it would have been “What do you care? You go through men faster than Elizabeth Taylor.” In the 2000's, it might have been “What do you care? You go through men faster than Jennifer Lopez.” It's an easy pop culture reference to a celebrity that most viewers will understand. And I don't look at it as slut-shaming, it's a reference to the fact that they had many highly publicized quick relationships, engagements and divorces. And why would these two characters bring in a male celebrity like Justin Bieber when they're straight women specifically referring to men? But you could easily flip this joke and scenario and make the two characters straight men. “What do you care? You go through women faster than John Mayer" or “What do you care? You go through women faster than Wilmer Valderrama.” The male celebrities in this scenario aren't being slut-shamed. It's just a simple pop culture reference that's easy to identify for viewers. If I'm a hack writer making that joke in 2021 and need to fill in the blank with a pop culture reference and a celebrity that most viewers will recognize, what celebrity am I going to insert? What female celebrity in the past 10-15 years has had more high profile relationships than Taylor? I'm certainly not defending the writing, it's clearly lazy and needed to be re-written. But so does the entire show quite frankly. And I'm not denying a double standard when it comes to women and men and dating. And women being slut-shamed for equal or less behavior. But I'm just not seeing it in this joke at all.
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Mar 3, 2021 16:16:01 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what you said in this post, except this. Saying "you go through men faster than Taylor Swift" to a woman is slut-shaming that character and slut-shaming Taylor Swift. And it's a sexist joke because it slut-shames a woman, using a woman as example, therefore upholding the decades of misogyny that has been present in Hollywood. They could have slut-shamed Justin Bieber (who had more partners than Taylor Swift), which would still make it slut-shaming and a bad joke, but at least it wouldn't be as stale and sexist. Or, better yet, the tens of people the show had to go through to be released could have said "Hey man, this joke is not funny. Can we cut it?" I don't look at the joke that way at all. In the 70's it would have been “What do you care? You go through men faster than Elizabeth Taylor.” In the 2000's, it might have been “What do you care? You go through men faster than Jennifer Lopez.” It's an easy pop culture reference to a celebrity that most viewers will understand. And I don't look at it as slut-shaming, it's a reference to the fact that they had many highly publicized quick relationships, engagements and divorces. I think the point we disagree on is that I believe this kind of joke wasn't okay in the 70's, wasn't okay in the 2000's, and definitely isn't okay now. But I guess that's our personal level of tolerance for patriarchy.
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HEADOFTHEPACK
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Post by HEADOFTHEPACK on Mar 3, 2021 16:29:17 GMT -5
Wow a lot has been said here, but broadly I'm with Ling-Ling. I saw somebody mention that this has blown up so much because the media/people latch onto whatever Taylor says - they do, but her tweet was clearly inflammatory (tagging Netflix, the WHM reference on the first day of March - it's intended to rile people up). She can say/do what she wants, that goes without saying, but it didn't feel necessary in this instance. This article sums up how I feel about it. I don't agree with absolutely everything, but I think there are valid points - slate.com/culture/2021/03/taylor-swift-ginny-georgia-netflix-sexism-dumb.html
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nickd
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Post by nickd on Mar 3, 2021 18:03:24 GMT -5
I mean, the back and forth here is becoming the norm because I feel like everyone is just grouping everyone in a for vs against and talking at each other with no actual purpose. What’s the solution in this case? What are the next steps? Are there even any? I think valid points have been made that Taylor (or any celebrity with a huge following) just made a single statement and people run with that, including media, who can amplify a message to give people the impression that Taylor has spent the last week wringing her hands in anger over a joke made in passing on a tv show no one heard of until she mentioned it on Twitter. Yet, at the same time, people with that level of following know that they just need to mention it once and it becomes a conversation point for days or weeks to come. Could the situation have been handled better and if so, how? Are there other situations that can compare to this that were handled differently? There’s definitely a lot to unpack with this but when the discussion falls back into a this group vs the other group mentality where everyone who doesn’t agree is misogynist and everyone who does is a brainless stan, it all kind of becomes pointless. Eh, the show was trending at #1 on Netflix before this whole controversy, and Taylor's fans were making quite a lot of noise on Twitter about that line of dialogue for a whole day before Taylor addressed it.
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Dammn Baby
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Post by Dammn Baby on Mar 3, 2021 18:04:23 GMT -5
And it was a crusty, old joke to boot. It's absolutely nothing else. It is not slut-shaming. I wouldn't even classify it as sexist. I agree with a lot of what you said in this post, except this. Saying "you go through men faster than Taylor Swift" to a woman is slut-shaming that character and slut-shaming Taylor Swift. And it's a sexist joke because it slut-shames a woman, using a woman as example, therefore upholding the decades of misogyny that has been present in Hollywood. They could have slut-shamed Justin Bieber (who had more partners than Taylor Swift), which would still make it slut-shaming and a bad joke, but at least it wouldn't be as stale and sexist. Or, better yet, the tens of people the show had to go through to be released could have said "Hey man, this joke is not funny. Can we cut it?" But the issue here that Taylor Swift is addressing is that no one did that. No one at Netflix felt safe or encouraged enough to speak out. And that is a systematic issue. I can't see anywhere in her Tweet where she addressed this issue, and there is zero evidence that anyone at Netflix felt unsafe or unable to "speak out". The creator of the show is a woman, the show has female directors, many of the writers on the show are women, and the main characters are women.
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nickd
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Post by nickd on Mar 3, 2021 19:00:08 GMT -5
Ling-Ling jenglisbe I think if we're talking about something like Rolling Stones calling Taylor Swift the "heartbreak kid" for her October 2012 cover, that's fine. Saying she has "boy troubles" or some such is pretty innocuous imo and in line with the kinds of things that might be said about Drake, Leonardo Di Caprio, etc. I would say "going through men" generally has more sexual connotations though, and not in a positive way, and that seems to be the context it was used in in this show. And although mainstream publications (like Rolling Stones as I mentioned) weren't really slut shaming Taylor on a large scale, the less reputable publications, blogs, etc. definitely were, and in an era where those more decentralized platforms have a greater impact on public discourse than in past decades, that matters. Narratives about how Taylor is a man-eater that only dates men for songwriting material, how she can't make her relationships last because she doesn't put out, or alternatively more standard slut shaming were all fairly relatively prevalent from about 2010-2014. I'd agree most young people have largely moved on from this. Both in regards to Taylor and female celebrities in general (ex Ariana Grande's rise to fame mostly came after that 2010-2014 period). Older demographics less so, I think you'd still find slut shaming towards Taylor in Daily Mail comment sections for example. Anyways, Taylor did play up the relationship drama early on (mainly 2006-2010), but once the conversation evolved into something uglier than she intended she pulled back and tried to correct course (mainly with 1989 era). It was definitely a sore point for her back then (ie 2013-2015) and I guess this TV show brought back those memories and caused her to be frustrated that some people still haven't moved on from those sexist narratives?
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legend1982
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Post by legend1982 on Mar 3, 2021 21:26:18 GMT -5
Ling-Ling jenglisbe I think if we're talking about something like Rolling Stones calling Taylor Swift the "heartbreak kid" for her October 2012 cover, that's fine. Saying she has "boy troubles" or some such is pretty innocuous imo and in line with the kinds of things that might be said about Drake, Leonardo Di Caprio, etc. I would say "going through men" generally has more sexual connotations though, and not in a positive way, and that seems to be the context it was used in in this show. And although mainstream publications (like Rolling Stones as I mentioned) weren't really slut shaming Taylor on a large scale, the less reputable publications, blogs, etc. definitely were, and in an era where those more decentralized platforms have a greater impact on public discourse than in past decades, that matters. Narratives about how Taylor is a man-eater that only dates men for songwriting material, how she can't make her relationships last because she doesn't put out, or alternatively more standard slut shaming were all fairly relatively prevalent from about 2010-2014. I'd agree most young people have largely moved on from this. Both in regards to Taylor and female celebrities in general (ex Ariana Grande's rise to fame mostly came after that 2010-2014 period). Older demographics less so, I think you'd still find slut shaming towards Taylor in Daily Mail comment sections for example. Anyways, Taylor did play up the relationship drama early on (mainly 2006-2010), but once the conversation evolved into something uglier than she intended she pulled back and tried to correct course (mainly with 1989 era). It was definitely a sore point for her back then (ie 2013-2015) and I guess this TV show brought back those memories and caused her to be frustrated that some people still haven't moved on from those sexist narratives? I don't post here much (lurk often), but watching this conversation over the past few days is driving me crazy. I know I'll probably get accused of "victim-shaming," but the media didn't create this narrative about Taylor. Taylor did. There are plenty of women in music history that have dated tons of famous men (J. Lo and Madonna are great examples). The difference with Taylor is that she made it a huge part of her art - especially from Speak Now - 1989. It's wasn't a bug, it was a feature. She used the fact that she dated famous guys as a marketing gimmick for her music. Why do I know that We Are Never is about Jake Gyllenhaal? Or Dear John is about John Mayer? Or I Knew You Were Trouble is about Harry Styles? She hinted, she played coy (Is Style also about Harry Styles?) and sometimes she straight up told us. It was like Carly Simon doing a whole discography of "You're So Vain." Her relationships were her. It's not the media's fault that she has become the short-hand for someone who goes through relationships quickly. Celebrities become short-hand for all sorts of things: Wesley Snipes (not paying taxes). Elizabeth Taylor (marriages). Dolly Parton (you know whats). But if we really want to have a discussion about sexism and double standards, let's talk about how it has been OK for Taylor to get away with trashing John Mayer's "reputation." The guy can't even get on TikTok.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 3, 2021 21:44:49 GMT -5
Ling-Ling jenglisbe I think if we're talking about something like Rolling Stones calling Taylor Swift the "heartbreak kid" for her October 2012 cover, that's fine. Saying she has "boy troubles" or some such is pretty innocuous imo and in line with the kinds of things that might be said about Drake, Leonardo Di Caprio, etc. I would say "going through men" generally has more sexual connotations though, and not in a positive way, and that seems to be the context it was used in in this show. As I previously said, I didn't view it in a sexual manner, but if that was the intent, it would change my view of the comment. I agree some people have been unfairly critical, but personally this discussion hasn't been about that for me. I did see that type of coverage, but that isn't slut shaming. Wait, so critiquing her for not sleeping around is slut shaming? Maybe my idea of "slut shaming" doesn't match you all. 1989 included direct references to Harry Styles (the song title "Style," the accident reference in "Out of the Woods"). And then the lead single for her next album had a video with direct image references to multiple ex-boyfriends. How was that her pulling back and correcting course?
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Mar 3, 2021 22:08:40 GMT -5
Her reaction was borderline ridiculous. It is a comedy script, it isn't meant to be politically correct. As long as it wasn't just something that completely crossed the line and was inexplicably offensive the response was honestly overblown.
You know how many artists/celebrities have had to take much worse digs at them on Family Guy, Saturday Night Live, etc through the years and didn't run to social media trying to incite backlash from their fanbase against the show lmao?
I did see somewhere on another site point out that trying to regulate simple digs on comedy shows is borderline censorship and I do agree. Imagine if every person parodied on SNL threw a tantrum, encouraged their fanbase to attack the show, and then tried to pressure the network. This really just showed me she is consumed with how people view her because I can't see 95% of other celebrities going to this length over a simple light-hearted dig on a random TV show that isn't even relevant. She has been universally praised the past year with her music yet she still managed to get so bothered by one irrelevant dig nobody else noticed. Everyone who isn't a Taylor stan sees through her narcism at this point. It all comes down to her desire to have this perfect untouchable image.
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nickd
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Post by nickd on Mar 4, 2021 1:02:03 GMT -5
I did see that type of coverage, but that isn't slut shaming. Wait, so critiquing her for not sleeping around is slut shaming? Maybe my idea of "slut shaming" doesn't match you all. I was just using those as examples of sexism. Basically the way it felt to me is that people were bothered by the fact that she was writing about her relationships, and that it (sometimes) made the guys look bad, so they tried to use all sorts of sexist arguments against her. I think when you're emphasizing that a woman has been in so many relationships, then that is basically slut shaming. And when you see articles like "the full list of all of Taylor's exes" it is veering in that direction, especially when many of them are a pretty big reach, and it makes it feel like they're trying to maximize the boyfriend count. Ellen DeGeneres was honestly a pretty bad offender when it comes to this in Taylor's appearance on the show during the Red era, Taylor looked really uncomfortable during all that, I'm kind of surprised that she seems to have forgiven Ellen for it. Or there was that reporter that told Taylor at the 2016 Grammys "I think you're going to go home with more than just a lot of Grammys, I think you're going to go home with a lot of men too". And those were public figures, random (often anonymous) people on social media would naturally feel comfortable being more overt. Anyways, Taylor did play up the relationship drama early on (mainly 2006-2010), but once the conversation evolved into something uglier than she intended she pulled back and tried to correct course (mainly with 1989 era). 1989 included direct references to Harry Styles (the song title "Style," the accident reference in "Out of the Woods"). And then the lead single for her next album had a video with direct image references to multiple ex-boyfriends. How was that her pulling back and correcting course?[/quote] She didn't really attempt to bring down Harry Styles on 1989 the way she did with some of her earlier relationships that went south. Also he was observed dating her, so it's not like not hinting that the songs might be about him would do anything to stop people from speculating (especially since she didn't really date anyone else during that period?), and she wasn't prepared to make a vow of celibacy or to stop writing about her experiences. But she did release Shake It Off and Blank Space which attempted to address how people saw her. Shake It Off is kind of like the musical equivalent of saying "nanananana idc idc I can't hear you". It's not especially convincing lol... but sometimes that's just the way it is. Something got under your skin, and you're trying to get past it by trying to convince yourself you don't care. I still think it's a fun song, and sometimes you need a song like that. Blank Space was more effective in changing the narrative. Portray yourself the way your haters see you, but make it worse and even more dramatic, and it takes the punch out of any future attempts they make to portray her as the serial dater psycho ex-girlfriend. Look What You Made Me Do's video referenced various things, but it didn't really address any of it. To me it kind of gave the vibes of "I know you want me to address all of this shit, but I won't, because fuck it". Which is mirrored by the way the song dramatically builds up to the chorus, and the way the chorus just ends up being a non-chorus. (she did address some of that on the album, but not really on any of the singles)
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Mar 4, 2021 1:15:40 GMT -5
Her reaction was borderline ridiculous. It is a comedy script, it isn't meant to be politically correct. As long as it wasn't just something that completely crossed the line and was inexplicably offensive the response was honestly overblown. You know how many artists/celebrities have had to take much worse digs at them on Family Guy, Saturday Night Live, etc through the years and didn't run to social media trying to incite backlash from their fanbase against the show lmao? I did see somewhere on another site point out that trying to regulate simple digs on comedy shows is borderline censorship and I do agree. Imagine if every person parodied on SNL threw a tantrum, encouraged their fanbase to attack the show, and then tried to pressure the network. This really just showed me she is consumed with how people view her because I can't see 95% of other celebrities going to this length over a simple light-hearted dig on a random TV show that isn't even relevant. She has been universally praised the past year with her music yet she still managed to get so bothered by one irrelevant dig nobody else noticed. Everyone who isn't a Taylor stan sees through her narcism at this point. It all comes down to her desire to have this perfect untouchable image. 1. other celebrities took much worse doesn't mean she has to. 2. she's a rich white straight woman so this is one of the more offensive/line-crossing jokes they can make about her. 3. her fans are the ones that alerted her of this, not the other way around. 4. she's disappointed in Netflix because they gave her the platform to talk about her eating disorder (caused by media coverage of her), sexual assault (by a media producer), having trouble maintaining a perfect image (due to media pressure) and political openness dilemma etc. just last year. she didn't call on Netflix to censor the show. she didn't take her documentary or tour movie off the platform. she just pointed out that she's disappointed. y'all really want people to have no feelings and opinions, just sing a song and go, huh? put the energy you're putting into invalidating a woman's feelings about sexism elsewhere. it isn't cute. the whole reason this conversation is even going on is because men are up in their feelings about how she should and shouldn't feel. the rest of the world has literally moved on from this topic. it ain't that deep. Taylor's tweets aren't executive orders.
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jodakyellow
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Post by jodakyellow on Mar 4, 2021 1:34:32 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what you said in this post, except this. Saying "you go through men faster than Taylor Swift" to a woman is slut-shaming that character and slut-shaming Taylor Swift. Maybe it's generational or something, but I don't see that comment as necessarily saying Taylor is a slut and sleeps around. I saw it as about her relationships/dating. If it does specifically reference sleeping around, it would actually change my view of things in this discussion. There’s a whole other layer of irony in the fact that during the period where her serial dating was part of her media narrative, so was the fact that she was believed to be a virgin. Slut-shaming while assuming the absence of sex? Who knows. — Anyway, shout-out to the few people in this thread who possess any nuance or ability to see things in context.
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Mar 4, 2021 1:53:27 GMT -5
in other, non-controversial news (I hope—maybe we'll have people blaming her for talking to Olivia and making "drivers license" about herself and her narcissism):
very cute. she talks about how people she's looked up to are now her peers and reaching out. she mentioned Taylor Swift, Niall Horran and Phoebe Bridgers.
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Mar 4, 2021 1:54:21 GMT -5
Her reaction was borderline ridiculous. It is a comedy script, it isn't meant to be politically correct. As long as it wasn't just something that completely crossed the line and was inexplicably offensive the response was honestly overblown. You know how many artists/celebrities have had to take much worse digs at them on Family Guy, Saturday Night Live, etc through the years and didn't run to social media trying to incite backlash from their fanbase against the show lmao? I did see somewhere on another site point out that trying to regulate simple digs on comedy shows is borderline censorship and I do agree. Imagine if every person parodied on SNL threw a tantrum, encouraged their fanbase to attack the show, and then tried to pressure the network. This really just showed me she is consumed with how people view her because I can't see 95% of other celebrities going to this length over a simple light-hearted dig on a random TV show that isn't even relevant. She has been universally praised the past year with her music yet she still managed to get so bothered by one irrelevant dig nobody else noticed. Everyone who isn't a Taylor stan sees through her narcism at this point. It all comes down to her desire to have this perfect untouchable image. 1. other celebrities took much worse doesn't mean she has to. 2. she's a rich white straight woman so this is one of the more offensive/line-crossing jokes they can make about her. 3. her fans are the ones that alerted her of this, not the other way around. 4. she's disappointed in Netflix because they gave her the platform to talk about her eating disorder (caused by media coverage of her), sexual assault (by a media producer), having trouble maintaining a perfect image (due to media pressure) and political openness dilemma etc. just last year. she didn't call on Netflix to censor the show. she didn't take her documentary or tour movie off the platform. she just pointed out that she's disappointed. y'all really want people to have no feelings and opinions, just sing a song and go, huh? put the energy you're putting into invalidating a woman's feelings about sexism elsewhere. it isn't cute. the whole reason this conversation is even going on is because men are up in their feelings about how she should and shouldn't feel. the rest of the world has literally moved on from this topic. it ain't that deep. Taylor's tweets aren't executive orders. Yeah, no. This post is a bunch of mess and victim playing. She could’ve reached out to the people involved on the show or Netflix directly on a personal level. She chose to go on Twitter for retweets, PR, and to rile up her fan base. Specifically because she wanted public backlash towards the show. Thus creating pressure to censor them or any other show from taking jabs at her in the future. Beyonce, Madonna, Gaga, Adele, etc would not go on Twitter complaining about a show dissing them. Almost any other A-lister would not have even thought to give this attention. However she likes to be an opportunistic victim at times, and her waiting until the first day of “Women’s History Month” when the episode aired a week prior tops it off really and shows what her motive is (trying to spin this into the best PR for her, rather than speaking out of genuine hurt). It’s actually a hilarious Karen move really. And yeah you’re right - most of the public ignored this and moved on. They probably thought it was ridiculous she tried to tie a teen comedy show jab to Women’s History. She didn’t bring up Women’s History Month to discuss any oppression facing the average everyday woman, shine a light on some current political issues, etc... but instead to incite backlash on a Netflix show for dissing her? To the average person it probably does come off as another extremely privileged Hollywood star indulged in their own narcissism. It’s hard for anyone who isn’t a Swiftie to take this seriously.
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Marooned@Midnight
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Post by Marooned@Midnight on Mar 4, 2021 6:12:36 GMT -5
I think the most telling thing is that every time she stands up for herself about anything people get all up in arms about it. If you really think the whole thing is silly, including her comment, then why give it the time of day? How does it really effect you and who are we to say what really effects her? Everyone is allowed to stand up for themselves, period. I think it’s sad that is such a rare thing for women that people still get upset when it’s done, every single time.
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 4, 2021 8:47:16 GMT -5
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Choco
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Post by Choco on Mar 4, 2021 9:08:08 GMT -5
Y'all still mad about this? Twitter has moved on to Kathryn Hahn memes, a win imo.
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