Mariah Carey wrote the last Christmas standard of our lives

[Relaxing Cup]

That’s all. She wrote the last Christmas classic of our lifetime, wow.

[jenglisbe]

I think it could be. What I mean is, outside of it obviously being hugely popular worldwide, it's also been covered a lot. While some songs that have been released since it have become fairly popular, to this point they haven't been covered (that I know) to have become actual holiday standards.

[Au$tin]

Santa Tell Me and Underneath the Tree exist, but okay.

And to a lesser extent, My Only Wish This Year.

[jenglisbe]

Dec 5, 2021 21:02:38 GMT -5 Au$tin said:

Santa Tell Me and Underneath the Tree exist, but okay.

And to a lesser extent, My Only Wish This Year.

None of those are a standard (or a classic) to this point. Additionally, it's very unlikely any of them will surpass "AIWFCIY" even if they stick around, so the topic post pretty much holds.

[degen]

I have a question. Is there any other Christmas song from the 90s that is considered a classic? I feel like a lot of it has to do with 90s nostalgia and this may be considered the defining Christmas song for many people who grew up in the 90s. The fact that Brenda Lee and other classic Christmas songs are gaining closer to it every year tells me it’s popularity has more to do with the younger generations listening to it, but as time goes on it will be no bigger than “Rockin Around The Christmas Tree.”

[jenglisbe]

Dec 5, 2021 21:57:20 GMT -5 degen said:

I have a question. Is there any other Christmas song from the 90s that is considered a classic? I feel like a lot of it has to do with 90s nostalgia and this may be considered the defining Christmas song for many people who grew up in the 90s. The fact that Brenda Lee and other classic Christmas songs are gaining closer to it every year tells me it’s popularity has more to do with the younger generations listening to it, but as time goes on it will be no bigger than “Rockin Around The Christmas Tree.”

Define "classic." Obviously no other holiday song from our lifetime is as big/classic as "AIWFCIY," but something like "Grown Up Christmas List" is fairly well known and has been covered by a lot of artists so I'd consider it a holiday classic.

[Dreams]

Yes, this is factual, OP.

[gikem]

I do agree with this statement to an extent, as I can't recall there being any major Christmas "standards" that have received mass recurrent attention every holiday season since then, outside of maybe Underneath The Tree.

However, there's a larger problem with that, and it goes back even further.

Because I get the feeling that these Christmas songs are so big every year that they're starting to eclipse a lot of the work of the artists who made them. Sure, there are exceptions - Ariana is still very popular right now, and Wham!/George Michael are still remembered fondly for a few classic non-Christmas songs like Careless Whisper decades later. But Brenda Lee, Perry Como, and Nat "King" Cole are pretty much remembered today for their Christmas music and almost nothing else, and I fear the same thing is happening to Mariah.

If I asked my non-music-nerd friends right now, I don't think any of them can name a single Mariah song that isn't AIWFCIY, even though she's amassed a huge catalog with tons of hits over the past 3 decades. And to make matters worse, she's leaned into that status as "the queen of Christmas" in recent years, which might sound like a savvy marketing strategy for her team, but it kind of devalues her impact in pop and R&B outside of the Christmas scope. Her debut single Vision of Love arguably influenced the evolution of those genres in the '90s as much as Smells Like Teen Spirit did for rock over a year later, and yet barely anybody talks about it these days.

I know this is me going off on a tangent, and maybe all this is wrong and there are more people who remember Mariah's other hits than I'm aware, but this is generally how it feels from my perspective.

[Joe1240]

Taylor Swift's Christmas Tree Farm is slowly getting more popular every year.

Others that are popular-
Michael Buble's Various Christmas songs
*NSYNC Merry Christmas Happy Holidays
Christina Aguilera Christmas Time

[Au$tin]

Dec 5, 2021 21:02:38 GMT -5 Au$tin said:

Santa Tell Me and Underneath the Tree exist, but okay.

And to a lesser extent, My Only Wish This Year.

Allow me to expand on this:

"All I Want for Christmas Is You" came out in 1994. The song is literally only a couple months younger than I am. It has had 27 seasons (currently going through it's 28th) to grow into the grandiose Christmas standard it is today, it wasn't something that happened immediately upon release, nor was it something that happened even within a few years of release. It wouldn't be until around the early-mid 00s when it started really getting a chokehold on the season, and even at that, it wouldn't be until the early-mid 10s before it become the undeniable juggernaut eclipsing literally every other Christmas recording to exist every year in ever metric imaginable. And that's another thing. We absolutely cannot be comparing anything, released prior or after the track, to its success, because its success is literally the ceiling. Something can become a standard without ever reaching the heights of Mariah's classic.

But as I stated before, it takes time for holiday songs to become annual hits. These songs need time to grow into the traditions that people hold dearly every year, and it's extremely evident given the immense streaming and recurrent play that a handful of songs released since AIWFCIY have that they either are or well on their way to becoming standards in their own right. Literally every year Kelly Clarkson's "Underneath the Tree" inches closer and closer to being a top ten hit on the Hot 100, last year reaching #12, surrounded by songs that I'm sure we all agree would be currently considered Christmas standards.

I also personally believe that a song doesn't need to have many covers to be considered a Christmas standard. Hell, the only relevant AIWFCIY cover I know of is Michael Bublé's. There was one by some no name that played at Kohl's when I worked there too, and those are literally the only two covers I know of, which is drastically compared to the numerous covers of, say, "White Christmas," "Jingle Bell Rock," or "Silent Night" that are released every damn year. Besides, covers themselves can be become standards, which would mean that standard literally would never receive a cover since you can't truly ever cover a cover.

Anyway, I think it's a bit ridiculous to claim that AIWFCIY is the "last Christmas standard of our lives" considering most of us are somewhere between 16 and 35 with plenty of life left to live (if you're 36+, sorry, you're an old dinosaur and dying soon). Imagine creating this thread in 1993 and claiming "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" was the last Christmas standard of your life at age 17.

Now, am I being way too picky about what's obviously an exaggerated tongue-in-cheek thread? Yes, yes I am, now shut up about that and stream the last Mother's Day standard of our lives, "Mom" by Meghan Trainor.

[mkarns]

Faith Hill's "Where Are You Christmas" (2000) got/gets a fair amount of play, but nowhere in the league of Mariah's song. Newsong's "The Christmas Shoes" also had a vogue in the early 2000s--even getting made into a TV movie--but seems to have faded as of late, or at least doesn't seem to get all that much play anymore (no complaint here.)

"All I Want For Christmas Is You" is a song I admit I never get tired of, though I don't want Mariah to fall into the pattern of largely dropping from sight or not receiving much attention for her work for 10 months of each year, only to reappear everywhere every November and December singing you-know-what plus a few other songs.

[trustypepper]

A classic, but not the last Christmas standard.

While we are on the topic of Mimi, let us all revisit #Beautiful, her iconic duet with Miguel. What a breath of fresh air filled with euphoria that song is.

[Au$tin]

Dec 6, 2021 0:24:51 GMT -5 mkarns said:

Faith Hill's "Where Are You Christmas" (2000) got/gets a fair amount of play, but nowhere in the league of Mariah's song.

Even if it did, it still wouldn't nullify the thread as Mariah Carey wrote that one too.

[mrmike855]

Isn't it kind of early to say this? As people said, it took AIWFCIY about a decade after release to start to catch on and didn't become humongous for another 10 years. Therefore, we can't judge unless "Underneath the Tree" fails to stick, and each year it becomes bigger and bigger, not mention Zoomers seem to be into Sia's "Snowman", and that's only 4 years old. Sure, if you're like 65 or older, the thread title could apply, but most of us will live to see one new Christmas song enter heavy rotation, if only to slightly freshen up the holiday playlist.

[degen]

Dec 6, 2021 1:19:37 GMT -5 mrmike855 said:

Isn't it kind of early to say this? As people said, it took AIWFCIY about a decade after release to start to catch on and didn't become humongous for another 10 years. Therefore, we can't judge unless "Underneath the Tree" fails to stick, and each year it becomes bigger and bigger, not mention Zoomers seem to be into Sia's "Snowman", and that's only 4 years old. Sure, if you're like 65 or older, the thread title could apply, but most of us will live to see one new Christmas song enter heavy rotation, if only to slightly freshen up the holiday playlist.

But is this true tho? Because I remember Mariah’s song already feeling so familiar in the Christmas canon by early 2000s. In fact by that point in time it was widely believed that the song was a cover. It really is a testament to just how brilliant the song is. And for those wondering if it’s overshadowing Mariah’s career, I say no. Because both “Fantasy” and “Always Be My Baby” we’re written within the same year. So god must’ve gifted Mariah with a special power as a song writer during 1994-1995. All 3 songs are classics.

If AIWFCIY didn’t exist there would’ve never been a Christina Aguilera, Nsync or Destiny’s Child Xmas albums. So I do feel the impact of the song happened pretty immediately.

I guess we can blame Billboard for never really tracking the chart success of Christmas songs in the 90s/00s. Just another one of many many flaws in their track record. But it does seem like other than “Last Christmas” in the 80s there was never an attempt for a major pop artist to be part of the Christmas canon. So when Mariah did it, it sparked a surge that we hadn’t seen since the 60s/70s. “Santa Tell Me” and “Underneath The Tree” feel like nothing more than attempts to copy Mariah.

[jdanton2]

Dec 5, 2021 22:34:44 GMT -5 gikem said:

I do agree with this statement to an extent, as I can't recall there being any major Christmas "standards" that have received mass recurrent attention every holiday season since then, outside of maybe Underneath The Tree.

However, there's a larger problem with that, and it goes back even further.

Because I get the feeling that these Christmas songs are so big every year that they're starting to eclipse a lot of the work of the artists who made them. Sure, there are exceptions - Ariana is still very popular right now, and Wham!/George Michael are still remembered fondly for a few classic non-Christmas songs like Careless Whisper decades later. But Brenda Lee, Perry Como, and Nat "King" Cole are pretty much remembered today for their Christmas music and almost nothing else, and I fear the same thing is happening to Mariah.

If I asked my non-music-nerd friends right now, I don't think any of them can name a single Mariah song that isn't AIWFCIY, even though she's amassed a huge catalog with tons of hits over the past 3 decades. And to make matters worse, she's leaned into that status as "the queen of Christmas" in recent years, which might sound like a savvy marketing strategy for her team, but it kind of devalues her impact in pop and R&B outside of the Christmas scope. Her debut single Vision of Love arguably influenced the evolution of those genres in the '90s as much as Smells Like Teen Spirit did for rock over a year later, and yet barely anybody talks about it these days.

I know this is me going off on a tangent, and maybe all this is wrong and there are more people who remember Mariah's other hits than I'm aware, but this is generally how it feels from my perspective.

Bing Crosby's who's White Christmas is the biggest selling song of all time was probably the biggest artist of the 1930's and 40's. he is now mostly remembered for White Christmas and maybe the duet he did with David Bowie in the 70's.

[groovetheory]

I also dont think it is the last one but it surely has become one. The fact that it sounds new and vintage at the same time makes it irresistible and timeless.

Brenda Lee has a similar kind of success every year with much less promo but we do not talk as much about it since we got used to it being a classic. But AIWFCIY has just become one so that is why the christmas music conversation currently revolves around it. In time we'll get used to it too and perhaps a new (or an existing) song will be just as exciting to track.

[dremolus - solarpunk]

I mean it the song is only 6 years older than me. I don't think it's wild to think there will be a Christmas song either created in the future or the past 10 years that can't eventually become a new Christmas classic.

[YourFaveIsAFlop]

Dec 6, 2021 1:49:05 GMT -5 degen said:

If AIWFCIY didn’t exist there would’ve never been a Christina Aguilera, Nsync or Destiny’s Child Xmas albums. So I do feel the impact of the song happened pretty immediately.

Pop artists have always made Christmas albums? Not sure how Mariah is responsible for NSync or DC3's lackluster albums.

[jenglisbe]

Dec 6, 2021 1:49:05 GMT -5 degen said:

Dec 6, 2021 1:19:37 GMT -5 mrmike855 said:

Isn't it kind of early to say this? As people said, it took AIWFCIY about a decade after release to start to catch on and didn't become humongous for another 10 years. Therefore, we can't judge unless "Underneath the Tree" fails to stick, and each year it becomes bigger and bigger, not mention Zoomers seem to be into Sia's "Snowman", and that's only 4 years old. Sure, if you're like 65 or older, the thread title could apply, but most of us will live to see one new Christmas song enter heavy rotation, if only to slightly freshen up the holiday playlist.

But is this true tho? Because I remember Mariah’s song already feeling so familiar in the Christmas canon by early 2000s.

Correct. I think people have that impression because that’s when more data started coming out, but it became popular immediately, and there is actually data to support that. For one, didn’t it make the top 10 of Top 40 airplay its first year? Has any holiday song done that since? Also keep in mind it re-entered the top 40 of Hot 100 Airplay for several years in the 90s. Have any of the other new holiday songs mentioned had enough airplay to be top 40 there each season? Additionally Billboard did do a Holiday Airplay type chart by the early 00s, and “AIWFCIY” was already top 10 on it. What other new holiday songs are already among the top 10 most played holiday songs?

And yes, by the time Digital Songs came about in the early-to-mid 00s (so, 10 years after the release of “AIWFCIY”) we saw “AIWFCIY” going top 10 and more so it was the most downloaded holiday song. None of the new holiday songs are consistently among the top 5 most downloaded songs.

None of that is too criticize the new holiday songs; the point is more that “AIWFCIY” was pretty big from the start and quickly established itself as a huge holiday song in a way that nothing had done in modern times, and in a way that nothing has done since. (That can be a true statement *and* it can be true that other holiday songs have done well or themselves since then.)

And I didn’t quote this part, but your point about “Underneath the Tree” and others is well-taken. Kelly Clarkson literally said people are trying to write their own “AIWFCIY.” Gwen Stefani and others have said something similar as well. It really is the template.

[jenglisbe]

Dec 6, 2021 4:09:49 GMT -5 jdanton2 said:

Dec 5, 2021 22:34:44 GMT -5 gikem said:

I do agree with this statement to an extent, as I can't recall there being any major Christmas "standards" that have received mass recurrent attention every holiday season since then, outside of maybe Underneath The Tree.

However, there's a larger problem with that, and it goes back even further.

Because I get the feeling that these Christmas songs are so big every year that they're starting to eclipse a lot of the work of the artists who made them. Sure, there are exceptions - Ariana is still very popular right now, and Wham!/George Michael are still remembered fondly for a few classic non-Christmas songs like Careless Whisper decades later. But Brenda Lee, Perry Como, and Nat "King" Cole are pretty much remembered today for their Christmas music and almost nothing else, and I fear the same thing is happening to Mariah.

If I asked my non-music-nerd friends right now, I don't think any of them can name a single Mariah song that isn't AIWFCIY, even though she's amassed a huge catalog with tons of hits over the past 3 decades. And to make matters worse, she's leaned into that status as "the queen of Christmas" in recent years, which might sound like a savvy marketing strategy for her team, but it kind of devalues her impact in pop and R&B outside of the Christmas scope. Her debut single Vision of Love arguably influenced the evolution of those genres in the '90s as much as Smells Like Teen Spirit did for rock over a year later, and yet barely anybody talks about it these days.

I know this is me going off on a tangent, and maybe all this is wrong and there are more people who remember Mariah's other hits than I'm aware, but this is generally how it feels from my perspective.

Bing Crosby's who's White Christmas is the biggest selling song of all time was probably the biggest artist of the 1930's and 40's. he is now mostly remembered for White Christmas and maybe the duet he did with David Bowie in the 70's.

Yeah but how many of these artists would be remembered at all if not for holiday music?

I don’t buy this argument that Mariah’s Queen of Christmas stuff is hurting her back catalog. Factually Mariah’s streaming is better than Madonna, Whitney, Celine, etc and that’s true even without “AIWFCIY.” Mariah has more songs over 100 million Spotify streams, more songs over 100 million YouTube views, and so on. “ABMB” was used in several movies/shows over the past 1-2 years, “Fantasy” was a big part of Free Guy this year, etc. Let’s stick to facts and not what someone’s ignorant friend would say.

[Relaxing Cup]

Only on Pulse would there be a debate about the topic at hand, which is great! This is a music board after all. But for the general public, there is no “Santa Tell Me”, there is no Taylor swift Christmas album or whatever; Mariah wrote the last Christmas *standard* of our lifetime and that’s the end of the story, period, no debate about it.

[jenglisbe]

To further highlight some "AIWFCIY" facts that establish its immediate popularity:

"AIWFCIY" peak on Hot 100 Airplay:
1994 holiday season - #12 (top 10 at Top 40 radio)
1995 holiday season - #35
1996 holiday season - #35
1999 holiday season when all formats counted - #62 (this is the year it first made the Hot 100)
(It also re-entered the AC chart throughout the 90s before that rule was changed, including making the top 10 again in the 1999 holiday season.)

"AIWFCIY" on Digital Songs:
2003 holiday season - #7 (only holiday song in the top 10)
2004 holiday season - #6 (only holiday song in the top 10)
2005 holiday season - #1

[Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ]

Dec 6, 2021 0:20:42 GMT -5 Au$tin said:

Dec 5, 2021 21:02:38 GMT -5 Au$tin said:

Santa Tell Me and Underneath the Tree exist, but okay.

And to a lesser extent, My Only Wish This Year.

Allow me to expand on this:

"All I Want for Christmas Is You" came out in 1994. The song is literally only a couple months younger than I am. It has had 27 seasons (currently going through it's 28th) to grow into the grandiose Christmas standard it is today, it wasn't something that happened immediately upon release, nor was it something that happened even within a few years of release. It wouldn't be until around the early-mid 00s when it started really getting a chokehold on the season, and even at that, it wouldn't be until the early-mid 10s before it become the undeniable juggernaut eclipsing literally every other Christmas recording to exist every year in ever metric imaginable. And that's another thing. We absolutely cannot be comparing anything, released prior or after the track, to its success, because its success is literally the ceiling. Something can become a standard without ever reaching the heights of Mariah's classic.

But as I stated before, it takes time for holiday songs to become annual hits. These songs need time to grow into the traditions that people hold dearly every year, and it's extremely evident given the immense streaming and recurrent play that a handful of songs released since AIWFCIY have that they either are or well on their way to becoming standards in their own right. Literally every year Kelly Clarkson's "Underneath the Tree" inches closer and closer to being a top ten hit on the Hot 100, last year reaching #12, surrounded by songs that I'm sure we all agree would be currently considered Christmas standards.

I also personally believe that a song doesn't need to have many covers to be considered a Christmas standard. Hell, the only relevant AIWFCIY cover I know of is Michael Bublé's. There was one by some no name that played at Kohl's when I worked there too, and those are literally the only two covers I know of, which is drastically compared to the numerous covers of, say, "White Christmas," "Jingle Bell Rock," or "Silent Night" that are released every damn year. Besides, covers themselves can be become standards, which would mean that standard literally would never receive a cover since you can't truly ever cover a cover.

Anyway, I think it's a bit ridiculous to claim that AIWFCIY is the "last Christmas standard of our lives" considering most of us are somewhere between 16 and 35 with plenty of life left to live (if you're 36+, sorry, you're an old dinosaur and dying soon). Imagine creating this thread in 1993 and claiming "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" was the last Christmas standard of your life at age 17.

Now, am I being way too picky about what's obviously an exaggerated tongue-in-cheek thread? Yes, yes I am, now shut up about that and stream the last Mother's Day standard of our lives, "Mom" by Meghan Trainor.

this 100%

[Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ]

Dec 6, 2021 8:14:01 GMT -5 Relaxing Cup said:

there is no “Santa Tell Me”, there is no Taylor swift Christmas album or whatever; Mariah wrote the last Christmas *standard* of our lifetime and that’s the end of the story, period, no debate about it.

well, not in 2021, but you don't know what can happen in 15-20 years. Also, I thought you posted this in "your opinion please?"

[jenglisbe]

Dec 6, 2021 9:22:12 GMT -5 Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ said:

Dec 6, 2021 8:14:01 GMT -5 Relaxing Cup said:

there is no “Santa Tell Me”, there is no Taylor swift Christmas album or whatever; Mariah wrote the last Christmas *standard* of our lifetime and that’s the end of the story, period, no debate about it.

well, not in 2021, but you don't know what can happen in 15-20 years. Also, I thought you posted this in "your opinion please?"

I don't know why folks keep talking 15-20 years from now when we have data that shows "AIWFCIY" was immediately popular and ahead of what any new holiday songs had done before it and have done since it. Look here.
(I do realize you mean something could spur another song to the top, and sure; but the point is more "AIWFCIY" was entrenched early, has remained there, and isn't going anywhere.)

[Relaxing Cup]

Dec 6, 2021 9:22:12 GMT -5 Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ said:

Dec 6, 2021 8:14:01 GMT -5 Relaxing Cup said:

there is no “Santa Tell Me”, there is no Taylor swift Christmas album or whatever; Mariah wrote the last Christmas *standard* of our lifetime and that’s the end of the story, period, no debate about it.

well, not in 2021, but you don't know what can happen in 15-20 years. Also, I thought you posted this in "your opinion please?"

you thought correctly, but sometimes your opinion is wrong and that’s okay 👌

[mrmike855]

Dec 6, 2021 1:49:05 GMT -5 degen said:

Dec 6, 2021 1:19:37 GMT -5 mrmike855 said:

Isn't it kind of early to say this? As people said, it took AIWFCIY about a decade after release to start to catch on and didn't become humongous for another 10 years. Therefore, we can't judge unless "Underneath the Tree" fails to stick, and each year it becomes bigger and bigger, not mention Zoomers seem to be into Sia's "Snowman", and that's only 4 years old. Sure, if you're like 65 or older, the thread title could apply, but most of us will live to see one new Christmas song enter heavy rotation, if only to slightly freshen up the holiday playlist.

But is this true tho? Because I remember Mariah’s song already feeling so familiar in the Christmas canon by early 2000s. In fact by that point in time it was widely believed that the song was a cover. It really is a testament to just how brilliant the song is. And for those wondering if it’s overshadowing Mariah’s career, I say no. Because both “Fantasy” and “Always Be My Baby” we’re written within the same year. So god must’ve gifted Mariah with a special power as a song writer during 1994-1995. All 3 songs are classics.

If AIWFCIY didn’t exist there would’ve never been a Christina Aguilera, Nsync or Destiny’s Child Xmas albums. So I do feel the impact of the song happened pretty immediately.

I guess we can blame Billboard for never really tracking the chart success of Christmas songs in the 90s/00s. Just another one of many many flaws in their track record. But it does seem like other than “Last Christmas” in the 80s there was never an attempt for a major pop artist to be part of the Christmas canon. So when Mariah did it, it sparked a surge that we hadn’t seen since the 60s/70s. “Santa Tell Me” and “Underneath The Tree” feel like nothing more than attempts to copy Mariah.

Probably because you grew up with Mariah Carey, or were a fan already. As someone who didn't have a childhood connection to her, I didn't hear AIWFCIY until around 2007, though for some reason, the local radio stations never seemed to play many of her songs. Also, the success of this song shows why Billboard shouldn't count Christmas songs on the Hot 100, AIWFCIY is guaranteed to be #1 every year for the foreseeable future.

On an unrelated note, in addition to "Underneath the Tree" and "Snowman", Trans Siberian Orchestra's version of "Carol of the Bells" seems to have reached the point where it's kind of a Christmas standard, and it came out in 1996. 

[Relaxing Cup]

No ones talking about Carol of the bells, come on now lmao

[Relaxing Cup]

are your friends singing trans Siberian orchestra at karaoke?