mrmike855
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Post by mrmike855 on Dec 6, 2021 11:48:31 GMT -5
are your friends singing trans Siberian orchestra at karaoke? Do you even know the version?
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Post by die Lotterie on Dec 6, 2021 11:50:50 GMT -5
Also, the success of this song shows why Billboard shouldn't count Christmas songs on the Hot 100, AIWFCIY is guaranteed to be #1 every year for the foreseeable future. Anyways, these artists have had almost 30 years to come up with another standard. Where it at?
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mrmike855
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Post by mrmike855 on Dec 6, 2021 12:00:54 GMT -5
Also, the success of this song shows why Billboard shouldn't count Christmas songs on the Hot 100, AIWFCIY is guaranteed to be #1 every year for the foreseeable future. Anyways, these artists have had almost 30 years to come up with another standard. Where it at? Well, it obvious isn't it? When artists release Christmas music, it's almost always covers, and even when they're original, they're basically about the same things. Mariah Carey basically covered the last original idea for a Christmas song (other than maybe Sia).
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dbhmr
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Post by dbhmr on Dec 6, 2021 12:04:56 GMT -5
She was at a peak in popularity when AIWFCIY came out which helped its initial performance, and then it continued to perform well on its own merits for years, but it really kicked into the next phase of popularity and adoption as a standard with Love, Actually. That gave it the juice to get bigger, and then social media/streaming has made it an annual event that is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy. You couldn't design its trajectory any better. The other, newer songs in contention are still quite a ways behind this in terms of impact and popularity, but it isn't nothing that songs like "Underneath the Tree," "Santa Tell Me," and "Snowman" build in popularity each year. Unlikely they'll ever match the same cultural and chart peaks of this song, but I agree with others who have said that not reaching this peak--the pinnacle of possible holiday song performance--doesn't mean a song hasn't become a standard. "Last Christmas" is a standard, and hasn't hit as big as AIWFCIY. The standard can't be being the absolute best, or else there would only be...one lol. That said, if Adele came out with a Christmas album in the next year or two and her first single was of "Hello" bigness and quality, it'd probably have a more similar early trajectory to AIWFCIY. Time would tell on the eventual hold. Anyways, these artists have had almost 30 years to come up with another standard. Where it at? Well, it obvious isn't it? When artists release Christmas music, it's almost always covers, and even when they're original, they're basically about the same things. Mariah Carey basically covered the last original idea for a Christmas song (other than maybe Sia). Vince Vance & The Valiants' own "All I Want For Christmas Is You," released in 1990, is basically the lyrical template that Mariah used. You could argue the same for "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)" and "All Alone On Christmas," albeit a bit less directly, and both predate Mariah's.
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back2blk
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Post by back2blk on Dec 6, 2021 12:06:37 GMT -5
I would agree, I'm sure by the time I die, no other artist will have de-throned Mariah as the Queen of Christmas.
Artists can release popular songs, and they have been. But I've read articles, and I'm seeing the same sentiments on this thread, that any other popular song released after All I Want will undoubtedly be compared to it - acknowledging that Mariah really did create a Christmas miracle.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 6, 2021 12:09:53 GMT -5
Probably because you grew up with Mariah Carey, or were a fan already. As someone who didn't have a childhood connection to her, I didn't hear AIWFCIY until around 2007, though for some reason, the local radio stations never seemed to play many of her songs. I'm not sure what a solitary experience has to do with much of anything. As I've already shown with actual data, "AIWFCIY" was popular from the jump and consistently remained popular.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 12:19:12 GMT -5
The “Mariah may eventually only be known for Christmas music” argument, while possibly true, isn’t reason for her to stop being omnipresent at Christmas time. Bing Crosby was massive in his day and may now be known for Christmas music, but how many music acts who were big in the 30s and 40s do people really still talk about? “White Christmas” ensured he’s still heard everywhere each year 40+ years after his death. “All I Want For Christmas Is You” is that song for Mariah, and most acts would kill to have a hit like that. Her legacy is set, and her catalog including that song will provide very well for her children and potential grandchildren.
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back2blk
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Post by back2blk on Dec 6, 2021 12:26:30 GMT -5
Mariah will only be known for Christmas music sure sounds like a lazy way of saying she'll be relevant at some point every single year.
It's tough to name a single Mariah song at times because SHE HAS SO MANY hits, even now I can't always keep all her #1's straight.
She's a literal living legend.
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Dec 6, 2021 12:31:54 GMT -5
I do remember when the song came out - I think it was the same year that Boyz II Men released “Let It Snow,” among others. In the first couple years of its release, it was an exciting song among the standards of the mid-90s, which for me were many of the same go-to holiday songs we still have: Holly Jolly Christmas, Last Christmas, Feliz Navidad, and others - plus a few other 80s and early 90s songs sprinkled in that seemed to have diminished in presence and popularity: Cyndi Lauper songs, “Hey Santa,” etc. I think the excitement behind AIWFCIY is around just how upbeat and happy it was. It was definitely different, contemporary while still feeling like Christmas. I’d say by the late 90s, it definitely had its presence within the holiday canon each year but it kind of blended in, much like how “Underneath the Tree” kind of blends in today. After 1994, I remember each year had a slew of new holiday singles released, some standouts but few that lasted beyond the first few years.
As has been mentioned somewhere already, its popularity picked up more maybe in the late 2000s, if I had to guess. I’d say by that time, it was fueled by nostalgia from new parents, and people who were children and remember when it first came out. Once the Hot 100 started to allow holiday songs to chart, it took on a whole new life where general pop culture helped it become the holiday beast it is now.
Tbh, for me, mixing the joy and magic of holiday songs with charts, while interesting, has kind of taken the magic out of hearing them each year. Being a chart follower means seeing hits with a technical lens that it’s hard to remove. I liked when holiday music just sat in the background at gatherings and malls so to see them pushed and marketed and being charting songs each year, it’s fun in some ways but a drain in others.
To respond to the main thread question, I say yes and no. Yes in the sense that, for the current generation, when we think of holiday classics, it’s the most recent one that seems to have always existed for us. There’s a magic in knowing a holiday song has just always existed for as long as we can remember. Timelessness and nostalgia are huge during Christmas. But I think as time passes, and younger people today get older, they very well could adopt something from Ariana or Kelly as the go-to holiday song of the year. It might be a stretch though because I do feel like most new holiday songs lack the spirit and, dare I say, “authenticity” as the older ones do. I think that’s what makes Mariah’s so good is because it captured that without feeling like it was recorded for the sake of having a Christmas song out there.
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Glove Slap
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Post by Glove Slap on Dec 6, 2021 12:52:22 GMT -5
They mad.
And in Europe at least Last Christmas is as big as Mariah's song, but it was already a standard by the time the latter was released.. It's moreso in the US where it's behind (maybe because it was never a US single?).
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 6, 2021 13:33:35 GMT -5
She was at a peak in popularity when AIWFCIY came out which helped its initial performance, and then it continued to perform well on its own merits for years, but it really kicked into the next phase of popularity and adoption as a standard with Love, Actually. That gave it the juice to get bigger, and then social media/streaming has made it an annual event that is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy. You couldn't design its trajectory any better. The other, newer songs in contention are still quite a ways behind this in terms of impact and popularity, but it isn't nothing that songs like "Underneath the Tree," "Santa Tell Me," and "Snowman" build in popularity each year. Unlikely they'll ever match the same cultural and chart peaks of this song, but I agree with others who have said that not reaching this peak--the pinnacle of possible holiday song performance--doesn't mean a song hasn't become a standard. "Last Christmas" is a standard, and hasn't hit as big as AIWFCIY. The standard can't be being the absolute best, or else there would only be...one lol. That said, if Adele came out with a Christmas album in the next year or two and her first single was of "Hello" bigness and quality, it'd probably have a more similar early trajectory to AIWFCIY. Time would tell on the eventual hold. Well, it obvious isn't it? When artists release Christmas music, it's almost always covers, and even when they're original, they're basically about the same things. Mariah Carey basically covered the last original idea for a Christmas song (other than maybe Sia). Vince Vance & The Valiants' own "All I Want For Christmas Is You," released in 1990, is basically the lyrical template that Mariah used. You could argue the same for "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)" and "All Alone On Christmas," albeit a bit less directly, and both predate Mariah's. First of all, I think this is a great post on the whole. I do want to address (nitpick? lol) 1-2 points. For one, I've seen that point about Love Actually before and it might have some merit to it, but I also am not sure I buy it. For one, it's not even Mariah's version that's used in the movie so I don't know why that would have helped it a ton. For another, Love Actually was only a mild hit when it was first released and didn't gain real traction for a few years when it became a cable television staple at the holidays. As I've shown with data, "AIWFCIY" was already entrenched in airplay and sales by that time. For another, I think we should look at the word "standard." In my mind a standard is a song that is recognized as a key song in a genre, and is also a song that has been covered by a lot of people. So, even if there is a definitive version, the song itself is a standard. To that end "AIWFCIY" also fits there where more recent songs do not. Are there a lot of covers of "Santa Tell Me" and "Underneath the Tree" and others to add to their feeling of being a standard? Oh, and yes, Mariah was at peak popularity when "AIWFCIY" was released, but to that end Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande were pretty relevant when their holiday songs dropped. Did those songs go top 10 at Top 40 radio their first year like "AIWFCIY" did? Did those songs earn enough Top 40 play to keep returning to the top 40 (and top 10 at AC radio) in subsequent years like "AIWFCIY" did? I truly don't know and am asking.
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Dec 6, 2021 14:49:04 GMT -5
I mean you obviously need more time to evaluate this.
Santa Tell Me, Underneath the Tree, and some others have strong potential. They’ve just been out for considerably less time. Nobody was calling AIWFCIY a bonafide standard after only 5 or so years.
Regardless, even if no song currently released from 1995-2021 reaches that status I’m pretty sure another will eventually will. As popular as Holiday music has clearly become obviously in the next 50+ years there will be artists that get some new classics out of it.
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Mic Technique
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Post by Mic Technique on Dec 6, 2021 14:55:55 GMT -5
Been thinking a lot about the beautiful and spiritual Cuban missile crisis inspired “Do You Hear What I Hear?” So I’m curious to know what the last religious/Christian Christmas standard is or was. Certainly isn’t the song about Mariah being horny for Tommy Mottola in a Santa costume!
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 6, 2021 15:00:26 GMT -5
Been thinking a lot about the beautiful and spiritual Cuban missile crisis inspired “Do You Hear What I Hear?” So I’m curious to know what the last religious/Christian Christmas standard is or was. Certainly isn’t the song about Mariah being horny for Tommy Mottola in a Santa costume! Do you consider “Grown Up Christmas List” to be religious? That came out in 1990.
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Mic Technique
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Post by Mic Technique on Dec 6, 2021 15:19:59 GMT -5
Been thinking a lot about the beautiful and spiritual Cuban missile crisis inspired “Do You Hear What I Hear?” So I’m curious to know what the last religious/Christian Christmas standard is or was. Certainly isn’t the song about Mariah being horny for Tommy Mottola in a Santa costume! Do you consider “Grown Up Christmas List” to be religious? That came out in 1990. As sung by Queen of Pop Amy Grant yes. She convincingly sounds like she’s appealing to God rather than Larry Ravioli dressed as Santa at the Garden State Plaza mall in 1983.
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spiritboy
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Post by spiritboy on Dec 6, 2021 15:25:30 GMT -5
I am far from being a fan of that song but no one can deny the impact of that song or Mariah releasing a Christmas album at the peak of her career. Almost all artists that came after her are inspired by the success of the song & the album.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 6, 2021 15:25:44 GMT -5
Do you consider “Grown Up Christmas List” to be religious? That came out in 1990. As sung by Queen of Pop Amy Grant yes. She convincingly sounds like she’s appealing to God rather than Larry Ravioli dressed as Santa at the Garden State Plaza mall in 1983. Ha and also off the top of my head there is also a reference to Heaven in it, if not more. Considering it has been covered by Natalie Cole, Amy Grant, Monica, Luis Miguel, and more, I’d consider it a holiday standard.
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dbhmr
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Post by dbhmr on Dec 6, 2021 15:29:25 GMT -5
She was at a peak in popularity when AIWFCIY came out which helped its initial performance, and then it continued to perform well on its own merits for years, but it really kicked into the next phase of popularity and adoption as a standard with Love, Actually. That gave it the juice to get bigger, and then social media/streaming has made it an annual event that is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy. You couldn't design its trajectory any better. The other, newer songs in contention are still quite a ways behind this in terms of impact and popularity, but it isn't nothing that songs like "Underneath the Tree," "Santa Tell Me," and "Snowman" build in popularity each year. Unlikely they'll ever match the same cultural and chart peaks of this song, but I agree with others who have said that not reaching this peak--the pinnacle of possible holiday song performance--doesn't mean a song hasn't become a standard. "Last Christmas" is a standard, and hasn't hit as big as AIWFCIY. The standard can't be being the absolute best, or else there would only be...one lol. That said, if Adele came out with a Christmas album in the next year or two and her first single was of "Hello" bigness and quality, it'd probably have a more similar early trajectory to AIWFCIY. Time would tell on the eventual hold. Vince Vance & The Valiants' own "All I Want For Christmas Is You," released in 1990, is basically the lyrical template that Mariah used. You could argue the same for "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)" and "All Alone On Christmas," albeit a bit less directly, and both predate Mariah's. First of all, I think this is a great post on the whole. I do want to address (nitpick? lol) 1-2 points. For one, I've seen that point about Love Actually before and it might have some merit to it, but I also am not sure I buy it. For one, it's not even Mariah's version that's used in the movie so I don't know why that would have helped it a ton. For another, Love Actually was only a mild hit when it was first released and didn't gain real traction for a few years when it became a cable television staple at the holidays. As I've shown with data, "AIWFCIY" was already entrenched in airplay and sales by that time. For another, I think we should look at the word "standard." In my mind a standard is a song that is recognized as a key song in a genre, and is also a song that has been covered by a lot of people. So, even if there is a definitive version, the song itself is a standard. To that end "AIWFCIY" also fits there where more recent songs do not. Are there a lot of covers of "Santa Tell Me" and "Underneath the Tree" and others to add to their feeling of being a standard? Oh, and yes, Mariah was at peak popularity when "AIWFCIY" was released, but to that end Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande were pretty relevant when their holiday songs dropped. Did those songs go top 10 at Top 40 radio their first year like "AIWFCIY" did? Did those songs earn enough Top 40 play to keep returning to the top 40 (and top 10 at AC radio) in subsequent years like "AIWFCIY" did? I truly don't know and am asking. I feel like I can cover all this by saying I think AIWFCIY is the biggest Christmas song there is and I don't expect to see one bigger in my lifetime. I also don't think anything since, "Santa Tell Me" and "Underneath the Tree" are standards. Yet. For the reasons you've cited. As for Love, Actually, I don't think it matters that it wasn't "her" version--it was her song used at the pinnacle point of the movie. To your point about standards being covered, this seems to be a prime example: using that song as the focal point for a character in the movie to cover. It made it feel on the level of, like, "Silent Night" or "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" that could/would have been used there had AIWFCIY not existed or been so well received.
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Au$tin
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Post by Au$tin on Dec 7, 2021 2:10:48 GMT -5
Found Relaxing Cup's Tumblr
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dremolus - solarpunk
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Post by dremolus - solarpunk on Dec 7, 2021 6:28:29 GMT -5
Also, Fairy Tale of New York is better
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 7, 2021 9:30:52 GMT -5
First of all, I think this is a great post on the whole. I do want to address (nitpick? lol) 1-2 points. For one, I've seen that point about Love Actually before and it might have some merit to it, but I also am not sure I buy it. For one, it's not even Mariah's version that's used in the movie so I don't know why that would have helped it a ton. For another, Love Actually was only a mild hit when it was first released and didn't gain real traction for a few years when it became a cable television staple at the holidays. As I've shown with data, "AIWFCIY" was already entrenched in airplay and sales by that time. For another, I think we should look at the word "standard." In my mind a standard is a song that is recognized as a key song in a genre, and is also a song that has been covered by a lot of people. So, even if there is a definitive version, the song itself is a standard. To that end "AIWFCIY" also fits there where more recent songs do not. Are there a lot of covers of "Santa Tell Me" and "Underneath the Tree" and others to add to their feeling of being a standard? Oh, and yes, Mariah was at peak popularity when "AIWFCIY" was released, but to that end Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande were pretty relevant when their holiday songs dropped. Did those songs go top 10 at Top 40 radio their first year like "AIWFCIY" did? Did those songs earn enough Top 40 play to keep returning to the top 40 (and top 10 at AC radio) in subsequent years like "AIWFCIY" did? I truly don't know and am asking. I feel like I can cover all this by saying I think AIWFCIY is the biggest Christmas song there is and I don't expect to see one bigger in my lifetime. I also don't think anything since, "Santa Tell Me" and "Underneath the Tree" are standards. Yet. For the reasons you've cited. As for Love, Actually, I don't think it matters that it wasn't "her" version--it was her song used at the pinnacle point of the movie. To your point about standards being covered, this seems to be a prime example: using that song as the focal point for a character in the movie to cover. It made it feel on the level of, like, "Silent Night" or "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" that could/would have been used there had AIWFCIY not existed or been so well received. I definitely think the two songs you mention have the potential to be standards, especially as the current generation 'takes over.' What's interesting is that cover songs are becoming less of a thing in general; they haven't been a thing in popular music for years (outside of singing competition shows anyway), and they have become less and less of a thing in holiday music as people compete to have their own "AIWFCIY." Out of that, the definition of a 'standard' is becoming outdated. There just aren't songs anymore that lots of artists cover the way songs used to get covered.
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bat1990
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Post by bat1990 on Dec 7, 2021 10:29:06 GMT -5
I guess we can blame Billboard for never really tracking the chart success of Christmas songs in the 90s/00s. Just another one of many many flaws in their track record. But it does seem like other than “Last Christmas” in the 80s there was never an attempt for a major pop artist to be part of the Christmas canon. So when Mariah did it, it sparked a surge that we hadn’t seen since the 60s/70s. “Santa Tell Me” and “Underneath The Tree” feel like nothing more than attempts to copy Mariah. The data analyst in me desires access to the Soundscan and BDS archives to create all-genre charts back to 1991 so badly. Even more so to also have the RIAA shipments database to compare against Soundscan and include music club sales.
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back2blk
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Post by back2blk on Dec 7, 2021 12:00:39 GMT -5
I think more than a Christmas standard, Mariah created a Christmas phenomenon. She made it viable for an artist at their peak to release Christmas music; she's proven that releasing Christmas music can lead to multi-year success; she's demonstrated how Christmas music can be profitable; she's made it so that an artist can remain relevant during the holidays when radio shifts to a specific sound, she made the entire music tracking industry invested in monitoring holiday songs.
If Santa Tell Me and Underneath the Tree end up becoming standards sometime in the future, hopefully in our lifetimes, they have Mariah to thank for that opportunity.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 8, 2021 14:47:31 GMT -5
I think more than a Christmas standard, Mariah created a Christmas phenomenon. She made it viable for an artist at their peak to release Christmas music; she's proven that releasing Christmas music can lead to multi-year success; she's demonstrated how Christmas music can be profitable; she's made it so that an artist can remain relevant during the holidays when radio shifts to a specific sound, she made the entire music tracking industry invested in monitoring holiday songs. If Santa Tell Me and Underneath the Tree end up becoming standards sometime in the future, hopefully in our lifetimes, they have Mariah to thank for that opportunity. Yeah I'd go so far as to say "AIWFCIY" has lifted the entire holiday music genre to be sure. Billboard had to create the Holiday chart in large part *because* of "AIWFCIY," which has of course completely dominated the chart. The advent of streaming services then necessitated the logical creation of pre-programmed playlists to mimic the convenience of radio that then facilitated the "pulling-up effect" on the rest of the Christmas Canon that also then suddenly opened up the dam for $$$ revenue for the industry that then prompted them to urge Billboard to open up the Hot 100 to let old Holiday songs be eligible. "Influential" doesn't even fully describe this phenomenon. Artist after artist has literally talked about having their own "AIWFCIY" being the goal.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 8, 2021 20:50:16 GMT -5
But Brenda Lee, Perry Como, and Nat "King" Cole are pretty much remembered today for their Christmas music and almost nothing else, and I fear the same thing is happening to Mariah. In addition to the streaming stats I tagged you in that show Mariah is much more than her holiday music, I have to take exception to the disrespect of Nat King Cole here. Are you implying songs like "Unforgettable" and "L-O-V-E" are not remembered?
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gikem
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Post by gikem on Dec 8, 2021 21:06:52 GMT -5
But Brenda Lee, Perry Como, and Nat "King" Cole are pretty much remembered today for their Christmas music and almost nothing else, and I fear the same thing is happening to Mariah. In addition to the streaming stats I tagged you in that show Mariah is much more than her holiday music, I have to take exception to the disrespect of Nat King Cole here. Are you implying songs like "Unforgettable" and "L-O-V-E" are not remembered? To be clear, I have absolutely NO disrespect for Nat King Cole, who was a fantastic vocalist and pioneering entertainer in the mid-20th century, and I enjoy many of his offerings. I'm just disappointed that his most well-known song is something that you can only properly listen to for a fraction of the year.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 8, 2021 21:10:46 GMT -5
In addition to the streaming stats I tagged you in that show Mariah is much more than her holiday music, I have to take exception to the disrespect of Nat King Cole here. Are you implying songs like "Unforgettable" and "L-O-V-E" are not remembered? To be clear, I have absolutely NO disrespect for Nat King Cole, who was a fantastic vocalist and pioneering entertainer in the mid-20th century, and I enjoy many of his offerings. I'm just disappointed that his most well-known song is something that you can only properly listen to for a fraction of the year. But do you think his non-holiday songs would actually be known more otherwise, or would it be like they are now just without him also having holiday songs?
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gikem
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Post by gikem on Dec 8, 2021 21:19:37 GMT -5
To be clear, I have absolutely NO disrespect for Nat King Cole, who was a fantastic vocalist and pioneering entertainer in the mid-20th century, and I enjoy many of his offerings. I'm just disappointed that his most well-known song is something that you can only properly listen to for a fraction of the year. But do you think his non-holiday songs would actually be known more otherwise, or would it be like they are now just without him also having holiday songs? Probably the same, maybe slightly more well-known. I assume my answer mostly proves your point.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Dec 8, 2021 21:24:25 GMT -5
But do you think his non-holiday songs would actually be known more otherwise, or would it be like they are now just without him also having holiday songs? Probably the same, maybe slightly more well-known. I assume my answer mostly proves your point. Ha yes, but more so I mean it as a general point. I see people often talk about an artist's holiday music overshadowing the rest of their catalog, but I don't think holiday music holds other songs back. I just think holiday music supersedes most other music and is inherently larger. But Mariah songs like "We Belong Together" and "Always Be My Baby" are still streamed a lot and well-known regardless of "AIWFCIY." Nat King Cole's "Unforgettable" is still a classic regardless of "The Christmas Song."
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Post by Koochie on Dec 8, 2021 23:37:01 GMT -5
Can we dial this conversation back because I’m not sure what song this thread is supposed to be about in the first place? 😔
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