BEYONCÉ: 'act i: RENAISSANCE' Era

[Deleted]

Girls TEA

[Rican@]

Aug 1, 2022 19:52:47 GMT -5 kimberly said:

Aug 1, 2022 19:48:53 GMT -5 Rican@ said:

Well of course! However, what can we account for as her thought process when there are so many writers involved? It’s not about discrediting because it’s obvious by the critics and public view that she’s doing something right. I just don’t agree or look at her as this artist when the input is shared with so many. I would respect her more as supposedly “artist” if she didn’t feel the need to put her names with so many others and then you could say she has a good ear for music—and even that will subjective especially with this album.

The Dream is stupid. That tweet—which I saw—is insulting to black writers. He’s literally implying that black writers don’t have any creative bone and rely on sampling. Back in the day, on an average black artist had original music or did covers. The sampling started in the 90s and the progressively gotten not creative at all. He intentionally played the race play against a legendary songwriter.

[Ling-Ling]

OMG, The Dream and Diane Warren are getting into it on Twitter!? This is the chaos we need.

Diane needs to hush and be thankful for that "I Was Here" paycheck.

[jenglisbe]

Aug 1, 2022 19:33:45 GMT -5 adamalterlago said:

This. And as someone who works in the industry and has firsthand knowledge of her writing contributions in former eras, this is all just crazy to me. I’m getting serious Mariah vibes with this argument. Beyonce has been contributing to her music since the DC years. I wish people would do the research or look into past interviews and credits. Or dive into the mechanics of the way music is produced and released. I’ve been on this board for years and it’s always mind blowing the amount of hate that comes from a Beyonce release. I completely understand if the new album isn’t for you and you expand upon why in a concise way. I’m actually interested in those convos because art is subjective. But the blatant tomfoolery discrediting her as an artist is so not a convo anymore. I think her legacy proves that.

I'm sure she has contributed to a lot of her songs, but when we also have examples like her writing credit on "Smash Into You" when that already existed as a song, it leaves room for people to question her contribution.

Aug 1, 2022 19:58:57 GMT -5 Rican@ said:

The Dream is stupid. That tweet—which I saw—is insulting to black writers. He’s literally implying that black writers don’t have any creative bone and rely on sampling. Back in the day, on an average black artist had original music or did covers. The sampling started in the 90s and the progressively gotten not creative at all. He intentionally played the race play against a legendary songwriter.

Sampling started before the 90s; look at a lot of 80s hip-hop, which was before sampling even got official writing credits. I don't know if what Dream said about the reason for sampling is true, but sampling existed a decade or more before the 1990s. Having said that, plenty of Black writers (from Motown writers to Lionel Richie to Babyface and L.A. Reid to Brenda Russell and more) carved out great careers in the 1960s-1980s without sampling.

[Rican@]

Aug 1, 2022 20:04:55 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Aug 1, 2022 19:33:45 GMT -5 adamalterlago said:

This. And as someone who works in the industry and has firsthand knowledge of her writing contributions in former eras, this is all just crazy to me. I’m getting serious Mariah vibes with this argument. Beyonce has been contributing to her music since the DC years. I wish people would do the research or look into past interviews and credits. Or dive into the mechanics of the way music is produced and released. I’ve been on this board for years and it’s always mind blowing the amount of hate that comes from a Beyonce release. I completely understand if the new album isn’t for you and you expand upon why in a concise way. I’m actually interested in those convos because art is subjective. But the blatant tomfoolery discrediting her as an artist is so not a convo anymore. I think her legacy proves that.

I'm sure she has contributed to a lot of her songs, but when we also have examples like her writing credit on "Smash Into You" when that already existed as a song, it leaves room for people to question her contribution.

Aug 1, 2022 19:58:57 GMT -5 Rican@ said:

The Dream is stupid. That tweet—which I saw—is insulting to black writers. He’s literally implying that black writers don’t have any creative bone and rely on sampling. Back in the day, on an average black artist had original music or did covers. The sampling started in the 90s and the progressively gotten not creative at all. He intentionally played the race play against a legendary songwriter.

Sampling started before the 90s; look at a lot of 80s hip-hop, which was before sampling even got official writing credits. I don't know if what Dream said about the reason for sampling is true, but sampling existed a decade or more before the 1990s. Having said that, plenty of Black writers (from Motown writers to Lionel Richie to Babyface and L.A. Reid to Brenda Russell and more) carved out great careers in the 1960s-1980s without sampling.

I’m speaking more about when it started to be added on to writing credit. I know it started before the 90s. You made my clear point about other black artists who didn’t rely on sampling.

[jenglisbe]

Aug 1, 2022 20:00:23 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

OMG, The Dream and Diane Warren are getting into it on Twitter!? This is the chaos we need.

Diane needs to hush and be thankful for that "I Was Here" paycheck.

Diane does need to hush, but she could lose the "I Was Here" paycheck and not even notice it lol

[kimberly]

Aug 1, 2022 19:58:57 GMT -5 Rican@ said:

Aug 1, 2022 19:52:47 GMT -5 kimberly said:

The Dream is stupid. That tweet—which I saw—is insulting to black writers. He’s literally implying that black writers don’t have any creative bone and rely on sampling. Back in the day, on an average black artist had original music or did covers. The sampling started in the 90s and the progressively gotten not creative at all. He intentionally played the race play against a legendary songwriter.

He never said that, that's all you.

Sampling is a foundational artistic tool in hip hop music, and has been a part of this culture since at least the 80s. He's saying it's disrespectful to ask this question when most of the songs on the album use samples, which obviously fluffs up the credits. Sampling does not make art less creative—at the end of the day, isn't all art derivative? (Diane Warren would know about that, btw.) 

RENAISSANCE pushes the boundaries of what you can do with samples and that's what makes it a great record. It pulls from so many different records to revive a sound that has been whitewashed in recent years (in the mainstream, at least). It doesn't just sample the beat of one pre-existing song and ride it with rap verses, which is what I assume you're referring to as "uncreative," which is also wrong and in questionable taste.

[Rican@]

Aug 1, 2022 20:20:14 GMT -5 kimberly said:

Aug 1, 2022 19:58:57 GMT -5 Rican@ said:

The Dream is stupid. That tweet—which I saw—is insulting to black writers. He’s literally implying that black writers don’t have any creative bone and rely on sampling. Back in the day, on an average black artist had original music or did covers. The sampling started in the 90s and the progressively gotten not creative at all. He intentionally played the race play against a legendary songwriter.

He never said that, that's all you.

Sampling is a foundational artistic tool in hip hop music, and has been a part of this culture since at least the 80s. He's saying it's disrespectful to ask this question when most of the songs on the album use samples, which obviously fluffs up the credits. Sampling does not make art less creative—at the end of the day, isn't all art derivative? (Diane Warren would know about that, btw.) 

RENAISSANCE pushes the boundaries of what you can do with samples and that's what makes it a great record. It pulls from so many different records to revive a sound that has been whitewashed in recent years (in the mainstream, at least). It doesn't just sample the beat of one pre-existing song and ride it with rap verses, which is what I assume you're referring to as "uncreative," which is also wrong and in questionable taste.

I wrote, implied because I know what was written so of course.

However the sampling is being used, it still not an original work. So yes, it’s not creative, in my mind. This has nothing against Beyoncé because I feel the same about Kanye—he is the king of reworking old work. I don’t see anything pushing boundaries with her record. Personally, it sounds overproduced in certain area—and I know it takes time to digest it yet it doesn’t leave an impression for me to have that desire to do it.

[surfy]

sampling is creative! it’s playing with texture, loops, creating a different atmosphere, taking a piece of one artist’s work to create a base layer for something completely different! molding what was already finished into something new is art. if it’s not for you, that’s okay.

[🇯🇲 dollybaby 🇯🇲]

[Fat Ass Kelly Price]

Oh my lord. Welp, this confirms that this cannot be a flop era. The messiness is abound.

Diane knew damn well why there were 24 credited writers. And sampling is nothing new nor is it inherently derivative. She should’ve just sat there and enjoyed her IWH residuals. And she should be the last one assessing songwriting creativity. I do love her willingness to be messy on Twitter though. She had the audacity and I lived.

[jenglisbe]

Aug 1, 2022 20:53:08 GMT -5 Fat Ass Kelly Price said:

Oh my lord. Welp, this confirms that this cannot be a flop era. The messiness is abound.

Diane knew damn well why there were 24 credited writers. And sampling is nothing new nor is it inherently derivative. She should’ve just sat there and enjoyed her IWH residuals. And she should be the last one assessing songwriting creativity. I do love her willingness to be messy on Twitter though. She had the audacity and I lived.

Diane is a mess for her post, but I don't get several of you acting like she should be grateful for her "IWH" residuals. I don't even like most of her songs, but Diane is still living big off Un-Break My Heart, Because You Loved Me, How Do I Live, I Don't Wanna Miss A Thing, If I Could Turn Back Time, and more. "I Was Here" isn't even a blip in her catalog.

[Fat Ass Kelly Price]

Learn to not take everything you read at face value.

[Rican@]

Aug 1, 2022 21:03:20 GMT -5 Fat Ass Kelly Price said:

Learn to not take everything you read at face value.

It’s funny you write that because the moment that Beyoncé is discredited. Her fans are quick to cry wolf. Face value or not, no need to discredit Diane by a track that Beyoncé may have forgotten she recorded too.

[Push The Button]

Yessss I love watching all these men put a woman in her place! One day they gonna LEARN.

[adamalterlago]

Going back to the music. America Has A Problem just hit and whewwww. I love an album that requires multiple listens to discover new moments. She really did that.

[kimberly]

mess.

"BREAK MY SOUL" is vying to become her first solo #1 since "Single Ladies," and first woman over 40 to hit #1 with a new solo release since Madonna with "Music" (2000). among all women in lead, Mariah Carey has achieved this with "AIWFCIY" and Sia with "Cheap Thrills" (ft. Sean Paul) more recently.

[Push The Button]

Not this Cher and Madonna erasure.

[magik]

Pretty sure Cher and Madonna were over 40 with "Believe" and "Music."

As far as Diane Warren vs Beyoncé, I am not shocked at this argument and this is why I believe Beyoncé struggles to win those big categories at the Grammys nowadays. She gets all of this open praise, but behind closed doors, those songwriters and other musicians are snobbish and would rather award something else. Diane comes off as a very nasty person, so her showing her Karen ways is not shocking, but The-Dream's response was kinda weak. Sampling is definitely an art form, but black artists didn't do it because they "had nothing" or whatever the hell he said. He could have kept that part out. And daring a songwriting battle between him and Diane Warren was also cringe. Has The-Dream ever written anything solely by himself? That's all Diane Warren needs to say to prove her point. And Renaissance is a dance album, so it's going to rely heavily on sampling and mixing, so she can save that with all of her cheese and nastiness.

[kimberly]

Aug 1, 2022 21:50:25 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

Not this Cher erasure.

Corrected now, it was actually Madonna in 2000 with "Music." I was using a Billboard article as reference but didn't notice they were listing people who hit #1 for the first time after 40 before counting down the other instances. hence the mix up.

Edit: article for those interested — behind paywall

Age Ain’t Nothin’ But a Number: Sia & Other Artists Who Topped the Hot 100 After 40
www.billboard.com/pro/sia-hot-100-cheap-thrills-40-madonna-eminem-pharrell/

[adamalterlago]

Good God - can’t we just be happy that a woman over the age of 40
is most likely hitting number #1? From Mariah, Madonna, Cher, etc it’s legend status. I think the original article I saw earlier regarding this statistic was because she was a woman of color over 40. REGARDLESS, it’s an incredible milestone. I would be popping off for any of the main girls if this happened.

If they were smart, they would release Cuff It or Church Girls next.

[kimberly]

Aug 1, 2022 22:07:35 GMT -5 adamalterlago said:

Good God - can’t we just be happy that a woman over the age of 40
is most likely hitting number #1? From Mariah, Madonna, Cher, etc it’s legend status. I think the original article I saw earlier regarding this statistic was because she was a woman of color over 40. REGARDLESS, it’s an incredible milestone. I would be popping off for any of the main girls if this happened.

If they were smart, they would release Cuff It or Church Girls next.

Is There Really Only One Black Woman Over 40 With a No. 1 Song?
www.vulture.com/2020/05/the-high-note-all-the-women-over-40-with-a-billboard-no-1.html

In reality, there were two black women over 40 with No. 1’s on the Billboard Hot 100 around the time the script for The High Note was written: Aretha Franklin and Tina Turner. And Mariah Carey’s record-demolishing No. 1 “All I Want For Christmas Is You” made her the third to accomplish the feat last December (likely after the movie was shot).

if the predictions hold up, Beyoncé will become the 4th Black woman over 40 to hit #1.

[magik]

Didn't Patti LaBelle also hit #1 with "On My Own"? I believe she was 41. I'm assuming, they're only talking about solo efforts. But that can't be the case, since Aretha Franklin is mentioned.

[iHype.]

The comment was unnecessary -- but on the other hand, imagine if she said that in reaction to a Kanye, Drake, or Nicki Minaj song. She wouldn't have gotten a fraction of backlash and hell, many people going up in flames over this probably would've been laughing or agreeing with her.

I think her stubborn older/traditional side is showing and she thinks music should only have 1-2 writers and be some draining ass AC song like she's been doing over and over since 19whenever.

However I also think it's a bit interesting that this once again proves that there is some level of 'you cannot critique Beyonce culture' Beyonce fans like to somehow still deny exists. Plenty of other artists have had this critique/questioning used when they had countless writers in their music, but somehow specifically with Beyonce you cannot question any facet of her artistry or what she does. This in turn I feel does make some people like Diane *want* to question her or discredit her, and why so many people feel they have to be stubborn in regards to Beyonce.

I'm just noticing this in general, with this Kelis stuff and whatnot too. I think a lot of these industry people are just tired of the narrative that we have to praise Beyonce and not question/complain about anything she does, and they are lashing out how they feel even if in some cases it does look a bit overreaching and ridiculous.

[groovy]

The Kelis controversy, the "sp*z" controversy, now the Diane thingy. And it's not even 1 week after the album dropped...

[R.K.]

Back to the album. Radio seems to want Cuff It as the next single, but Alien Superstar is getting loads of buzz on twitter and IG with fun video edits going viral. It might not be a bad idea to ride it out for a while and see if TikTok catches on. Impact next month or next year, radio will eat Cuff It up either way.

[magik]

Aug 1, 2022 22:19:21 GMT -5 iHype. said:

I'm just noticing this in general, with this Kelis stuff and whatnot too. I think a lot of these industry people are just tired of the narrative that we have to praise Beyonce and not question/complain about anything she does, and they are lashing out how they feel even if in some cases it does look a bit overreaching and ridiculous.

That's exactly why I said Beyoncé low-key has haters in the industry, even though these celebrities and musicians post these "Beyoncé is unbeatable!" tweets. They tend to show it when it's time to vote for the big categories at the Grammys, for example.

[Ling-Ling]

I'm just waiting for Keri Hilson to put her two cents in. Somebody get her on the line!

[groovy]

Aug 1, 2022 22:19:21 GMT -5 iHype. said:

However I also think it's a bit interesting that this once again proves that there is some level of 'you cannot critique Beyonce culture' Beyonce fans like to somehow still deny exists. Plenty of other artists have had this critique/questioning used when they had countless writers in their music, but somehow specifically with Beyonce you cannot question any facet of her artistry or what she does. This in turn I feel does make some people like Diane *want* to question her or discredit her, and why so many people feel they have to be stubborn in regards to Beyonce.

I'm just noticing this in general, with this Kelis stuff and whatnot too. I think a lot of these industry people are just tired of the narrative that we have to praise Beyonce and not question/complain about anything she does, and they are lashing out how they feel even if in some cases it does look a bit overreaching and ridiculous.

Except that people have ALWAYS critiqued Beyonce for every little thing she does.

Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, people always come for her, whether it is her personal life, her artistry, her talent, her legacy, EVERYTHING! "Beyonce is overrated" is always brought up every single time she does something (or even when she doesn't do anything), despite there are lots of other talentless people running the charts right now. "Beyonce is a capitalist, tax the rich" argument is always brought up every single time, while a certain other black female billionaire is praised for achieving the same thing. Remember the "Run The World" vs "Bohemian Rhapsody" meme that went on on Tumblr a few years ago. It became super popular and she quickly became a punching bag, and I still see that meme going around online these days too. And with Beyonce, these critiques don't only stay on the internet. They get brought up on TV news, talk shows, etc.

The "Beyonce can't sing" notion has been going on since decades, despite her being one of the best current vocalists in Pop & R&B. Rappers say offensive things all the time and no one bats an eye. Beyonce says one offensive word and it made to the Guardian homepage. Harry's & Adele's albums got leaked but it stayed on stan twitter, Beyonce's album got leaked then it got reported on CNN leading more people to check out the leak. Not to mention the "Formation" infamous controversy, the police boycotting her concert, the Black is King release resulting in hundreds of think pieces, and many many more.

So really, I don't get where the "you cannot critique Beyonce" argument is coming from. As a matter of fact, it's actually the opposite. And this is the reason why a lot of her fans are very defensive about it.

[iHype.]

Aug 1, 2022 22:28:28 GMT -5 R.K. said:

Back to the album. Radio seems to want Cuff It as the next single, but Alien Superstar is getting loads of buzz on twitter and IG with fun video edits going viral. It might not be a bad idea to ride it out for a while and see if TikTok catches on. Impact next month or next year, radio will eat Cuff It up either way.

Alien Superstar, Cuff It, Church Girl and Cozy could all be huge Urban/Rhythmic hits. All those should be the remaining singles in whichever order is appropriate.


Summer Renaissance should be the next single sent to Pop. None of those other songs will go far at Pop at all, not much appeal. Summer Renaissance on the other hand is a gamble, but it is absolutely amazing and has strong Pop appeal.