Billboard Hot 100: 07/30/2022

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Jul 22, 2022 18:26:24 GMT -5 lazer said:

Jul 22, 2022 16:41:08 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

I’m still confused as to why you’re discounting these songs. Don’t get me wrong, I have zero interest in I Hope or Fancy Like, but if people (old or young) listen to them/like them enough, why shouldn’t that be reflected in charts?

If a song is listened to/streamed/played enough at this current point in time, no matter who is listening to it and no matter how old it is, it should be reflected.

Tell Billboard that in the 90s when songs that weren't officially released as singles never charted(Don't Speak, Torn, etc) or when they placed TRL songs lower placements than they should be 1999/2000(Oops I Did It Again, It's Gonna Be Me, etc) or when they took to long to lift certain songs at the top of the charts in 2006/2007 when they have been doing extremely well in the first week of release(SOS, Sexyback, etc).

Those songs should've been reflected correctly at those times. Also, many alternative rock songs during the 90s/00s weren't reflected properly in the Hot 100 charts as well.

What does that have to do with now?

Anyway

[dragonslair]

Jul 22, 2022 18:26:24 GMT -5 lazer said:

Jul 22, 2022 16:41:08 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

I’m still confused as to why you’re discounting these songs. Don’t get me wrong, I have zero interest in I Hope or Fancy Like, but if people (old or young) listen to them/like them enough, why shouldn’t that be reflected in charts?

If a song is listened to/streamed/played enough at this current point in time, no matter who is listening to it and no matter how old it is, it should be reflected.

Tell Billboard that in the 90s when songs that weren't officially released as singles never charted(Don't Speak, Torn, etc) or when they placed TRL songs lower placements than they should be 1999/2000(Oops I Did It Again, It's Gonna Be Me, etc) or when they took to long to lift certain songs at the top of the charts in 2006/2007 when they have been doing extremely well in the first week of release(SOS, Sexyback, etc).

Those songs should've been reflected correctly at those times. Also, many alternative rock songs during the 90s/00s weren't reflected properly in the Hot 100 charts as well.

All those songs followed the rules in place at the time.

People give Billboard far too much power,  While Billboard makes the chart and certainly has a lot of say in how it is made - they only remain accepted by the music industry by using policies agreed upon by the industry players.

Billboard didn't just deny non singles not to chart - that was at the behest of industry,  the industry that pays a billboard for its services.  While we all like the charts, Billbkafd at the end of the day is a business funded by the labels who buy its services and data.

[phieaglesfan712]

[badrobot]

I’m dumb and can’t read all these posts but is the Supalonely song the one by Benee or someone else?

[dremolus - solarpunk]

Why did we just spend two pages talking about Supalonely and I Hope?

[𝓲𝓽'𝓼.𝓰𝓿]

"Bad Habit" being the cause of "Bad Habits"' going to recurrent is just amazing coincidence

[firefox]

Jul 22, 2022 12:30:14 GMT -5 Baby Yoda Hot100Fan said:

kworb's Billboard Radio Songs Estimates « 2022 » / « 07 » / « 22 »

1(=) Lizzo - About Damn Time 117.36(+0.16)
2(+1) Harry Styles - As It Was 98.07(-0.22)
3(-1) Jack Harlow - First Class 97.36(-1.00)


4(=) Em Beihold - Numb Little Bug 68.73(+0.51)

This will be our top 3 for a whole month even for that decreases.

[dragonslair]

Jul 23, 2022 0:47:27 GMT -5 𝓲𝓽'𝓼.𝓰𝓿 said:

"Bad Habit" being the cause of "Bad Habits"' going to recurrent is just amazing coincidence

Looks more like it will be Like I Love Country or I Ain't Worried.

[dragonslair]

Jul 23, 2022 0:35:47 GMT -5 dremolus - solarpunk said:

Why did we just spend two pages talking about Supalonely and I Hope?

We didn't.  We spent two pages talking about what types of songs are charting in the current Hot 100.  Those two songs were merely a couple of examples to illustrate points.

[jenglisbe]

Jul 22, 2022 18:26:24 GMT -5 lazer said:

Jul 22, 2022 16:41:08 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

I’m still confused as to why you’re discounting these songs. Don’t get me wrong, I have zero interest in I Hope or Fancy Like, but if people (old or young) listen to them/like them enough, why shouldn’t that be reflected in charts?

If a song is listened to/streamed/played enough at this current point in time, no matter who is listening to it and no matter how old it is, it should be reflected.

Tell Billboard that in the 90s when songs that weren't officially released as singles never charted(Don't Speak, Torn, etc) or when they placed TRL songs lower placements than they should be 1999/2000(Oops I Did It Again, It's Gonna Be Me, etc) or when they took to long to lift certain songs at the top of the charts in 2006/2007 when they have been doing extremely well in the first week of release(SOS, Sexyback, etc).

Those songs should've been reflected correctly at those times. Also, many alternative rock songs during the 90s/00s weren't reflected properly in the Hot 100 charts as well.

How does one even determine "proper" reflection? You bring up "Don't Speak," but had it been allowed to chart its popularity still wouldn't have been "properly" reflected since it wouldn't have had any sales points; at best it would have hit #6 or #7 on the Hot 100. I also don't know what you mean about the TRL songs, or more so what you expected Billboard to do about it since those songs were eligible to chart and did so (and "It's Gonna Be Me" even hit #1 on the Hot 100, so that seems like a weird example).

[dragonslair]

Jul 23, 2022 8:05:00 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Jul 22, 2022 18:26:24 GMT -5 lazer said:

Tell Billboard that in the 90s when songs that weren't officially released as singles never charted(Don't Speak, Torn, etc) or when they placed TRL songs lower placements than they should be 1999/2000(Oops I Did It Again, It's Gonna Be Me, etc) or when they took to long to lift certain songs at the top of the charts in 2006/2007 when they have been doing extremely well in the first week of release(SOS, Sexyback, etc).

Those songs should've been reflected correctly at those times. Also, many alternative rock songs during the 90s/00s weren't reflected properly in the Hot 100 charts as well.

How does one even determine "proper" reflection? You bring up "Don't Speak," but had it been allowed to chart its popularity still wouldn't have been "properly" reflected since it wouldn't have had any sales points; at best it would have hit #6 or #7 on the Hot 100. I also don't know what you mean about the TRL songs, or more so what you expected Billboard to do about it since those songs were eligible to chart and did so (and "It's Gonna Be Me" even hit #1 on the Hot 100, so that seems like a weird example).

The TRL part seems to be today's version of streaming not counting enough arguments.  For some it was a major part of their music consumption, and should have more reflected the charts,  I Only by Hanson would have been a better example than It's Gonna Be Me. It frequently flipped places at #1 with IGBM, and while it did well on TRL, it did not have a US release.

with TRL being a direct feedback on music Likes, a chart by user requests, some viewed it as essential.  But they forget, like all of today's metric arguments, it was only one form of consumption.

[rimetm]

Jul 23, 2022 8:05:00 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

How does one even determine "proper" reflection? You bring up "Don't Speak," but had it been allowed to chart its popularity still wouldn't have been "properly" reflected since it wouldn't have had any sales points; at best it would have hit #6 or #7 on the Hot 100. I also don't know what you mean about the TRL songs, or more so what you expected Billboard to do about it since those songs were eligible to chart and did so (and "It's Gonna Be Me" even hit #1 on the Hot 100, so that seems like a weird example).

I didn't want to waddle into this debate, but I have to point out that your first counter explains your second counter. There were songs that were extremely popular as music videos that ended up being overshadowed by other songs from the same artist that the label pushed in the physical sale format. In one particularly notorious case, the disparity in popularity was leveraged:

Sisqo had a big summer of 2000 with the track "Thong Song". While it had a limited sales campaign (from what I can tell, it may or may not have had a 7" vinyl and that's it), it was a monster on radio and a monster on television, with the former enabling it to get to #3. The label instead tried that autumn to get Sisqo a topper with a more sedate ballad, "Incomplete". To help broaden the appeal of the CD, they made the B-side of the US single the then-unreleased explicit version of "Thong Song" that added a feature. From what I've read, that was the reason the single sold so well, and so you end up with this disparity of Sisqo's highest peaking song basically standing on the shoulders of a giant. *NSYNC, since you mentioned them, have a similar situation except less stark: "Bye Bye Bye" was the track radio loved and got massive television play, but it never had a single so it stalled outside the top 5. Meanwhile, the label threw all their weight into "It's Gonna Be Me", which ended up as the group's chart peak even though "Bye Bye Bye" is the song that's more remembered and had the better legs even in that chart year.

[jenglisbe]

Jul 23, 2022 8:35:50 GMT -5 dragonslair said:

The TRL part seems to be today's version of streaming not counting enough arguments.  For some it was a major part of their music consumption, and should have more reflected the charts,  I Only by Hanson would have been a better example than It's Gonna Be Me. It frequently flipped places at #1 with IGBM, and while it did well on TRL, it did not have a US release.

with TRL being a direct feedback on music Likes, a chart by user requests, some viewed it as essential.  But they forget, like all of today's metric arguments, it was only one form of consumption.

So is the suggestion that TRL data have been added to the Hot 100? That's where I am getting confused.

It should also be noted TRL was never a 'fair' process, nor was it meant to be. Mass voting was encouraged, no? It just isn't a metric that would have been seen as tight enough to count.

Jul 23, 2022 8:47:03 GMT -5 rimetm said:

Jul 23, 2022 8:05:00 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

How does one even determine "proper" reflection? You bring up "Don't Speak," but had it been allowed to chart its popularity still wouldn't have been "properly" reflected since it wouldn't have had any sales points; at best it would have hit #6 or #7 on the Hot 100. I also don't know what you mean about the TRL songs, or more so what you expected Billboard to do about it since those songs were eligible to chart and did so (and "It's Gonna Be Me" even hit #1 on the Hot 100, so that seems like a weird example).

I didn't want to waddle into this debate, but I have to point out that your first counter explains your second counter. There were songs that were extremely popular as music videos that ended up being overshadowed by other songs from the same artist that the label pushed in the physical sale format. In one particularly notorious case, the disparity in popularity was leveraged:

Sisqo had a big summer of 2000 with the track "Thong Song". While it had a limited sales campaign (from what I can tell, it may or may not have had a 7" vinyl and that's it), it was a monster on radio and a monster on television, with the former enabling it to get to #3. The label instead tried that autumn to get Sisqo a topper with a more sedate ballad, "Incomplete". To help broaden the appeal of the CD, they made the B-side of the US single the then-unreleased explicit version of "Thong Song" that added a feature. From what I've read, that was the reason the single sold so well, and so you end up with this disparity of Sisqo's highest peaking song basically standing on the shoulders of a giant. *NSYNC, since you mentioned them, have a similar situation except less stark: "Bye Bye Bye" was the track radio loved and got massive television play, but it never had a single so it stalled outside the top 5. Meanwhile, the label threw all their weight into "It's Gonna Be Me", which ended up as the group's chart peak even though "Bye Bye Bye" is the song that's more remembered.

I don't think anyone disputed that there were songs that were more popular than their Hot 100 peak suggests (or that never charted to begin with); the question is more what people expected Billboard to do about it. As dragonslair already noted, the rules were in large part based on industry desires. But even apart from that, labels made the choice to not have physical singles for certain songs. That is not Billboard's doing, and more so of course any song without sales is going to chart lower than popular songs that do have sales. If for some reason Harry's label pulled "As It Was" from streaming now and it sank on the chart, would people blame Billboard for its low position?

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

I’d say shows like TRL (and in Canada, the MuchMusic countdown) are meant to attempt to represent a specific demographic of music fans without using any sort of accurate data or approach to it. They probably even go with a “what feels like” approach. Idk. But then music fans within that same demographic take that as being meaningful and it kind of skews perception. So if TRL is saying one song is massive, and all the viewers have no reason to think otherwise, then they believe the song to be massive. Not only because that’s what they’re told, but because they themselves are also seeing/hearing that song everywhere within their own circles.

That’s the thing. It’s within their own circles, from their own perspectives. It’s not wrong, but it’s still not representative of everything because TRL, and the channels that TRL’a audience might have used to hear music, don’t represent all music listening audiences.

[jenglisbe]

Jul 23, 2022 8:55:39 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

I’d say shows like TRL (and in Canada, the MuchMusic countdown) are meant to attempt to represent a specific demographic of music fans without using any sort of accurate data or approach to it. They probably even go with a “what feels like” approach. Idk. But then music fans within that same demographic take that as being meaningful and it kind of skews perception. So if TRL is saying one song is massive, and all the viewers have no reason to think otherwise, then they believe the song to be massive. Not only because that’s what they’re told, but because they themselves are also seeing/hearing that song everywhere within their own circles.

That’s the thing. It’s within their own circles, from their own perspectives. It’s not wrong, but it’s still not representative of everything because TRL, and the channels that TRL’a audience might have used to hear music, don’t represent all music listening audiences.

Right. But I could agree to including data from something like TRL for the Hot 100 if there was a tighter accountability to it (not that my opinion on that matters lol).

The Hot 100 is also called "Hot" for a reason. It's intended to represent what is "hot." To that end, younger demos tend to listen to new music more than older demos (at least stereotypically, but I think data supports that point). Out of that I do think something like TRL is more applicable to the Hot 100 than some other things. But again, TRL had its flaws to be sure.

[dragonslair]

Justice for Stairway To Heaven!

[dremolus - solarpunk]

Ayt so I'm gonna need Kate Bush's label to put this audio on Spotify

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Jul 23, 2022 9:00:37 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Jul 23, 2022 8:55:39 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

I’d say shows like TRL (and in Canada, the MuchMusic countdown) are meant to attempt to represent a specific demographic of music fans without using any sort of accurate data or approach to it. They probably even go with a “what feels like” approach. Idk. But then music fans within that same demographic take that as being meaningful and it kind of skews perception. So if TRL is saying one song is massive, and all the viewers have no reason to think otherwise, then they believe the song to be massive. Not only because that’s what they’re told, but because they themselves are also seeing/hearing that song everywhere within their own circles.

That’s the thing. It’s within their own circles, from their own perspectives. It’s not wrong, but it’s still not representative of everything because TRL, and the channels that TRL’a audience might have used to hear music, don’t represent all music listening audiences.

Right. But I could agree to including data from something like TRL for the Hot 100 if there was a tighter accountability to it (not that my opinion on that matters lol).

The Hot 100 is also called "Hot" for a reason. It's intended to represent what is "hot." To that end, younger demos tend to listen to new music more than older demos (at least stereotypically, but I think data supports that point). Out of that I do think something like TRL is more applicable to the Hot 100 than some other things. But again, TRL had its flaws to be sure.

They 💯 should have counted video airtime from TRL toward the Hot 100. And all music tv networks really. Base it off of individual program ratings of course. So if TRL was the top rated program, it would obviously have the biggest impact.

I don’t think Billboard ever counted tv networking toward the Hot 100, did it?

[jenglisbe]

Jul 23, 2022 9:13:14 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Jul 23, 2022 9:00:37 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Right. But I could agree to including data from something like TRL for the Hot 100 if there was a tighter accountability to it (not that my opinion on that matters lol).

The Hot 100 is also called "Hot" for a reason. It's intended to represent what is "hot." To that end, younger demos tend to listen to new music more than older demos (at least stereotypically, but I think data supports that point). Out of that I do think something like TRL is more applicable to the Hot 100 than some other things. But again, TRL had its flaws to be sure.

They 💯 should have counted video airtime from TRL toward the Hot 100. And all music tv networks really. Base it off of individual program ratings of course. So if TRL was the top rated program, it would obviously have the biggest impact.

I don’t think Billboard ever counted tv networking toward the Hot 100, did it?

That would have been interesting, as well as a parallel to radio play of course. Video sales were incorporated at some point. Yahoo and AOL video play was incorporated by 2008. So, Billboard/industry was open to it in some sense. I wonder if there were ever discussions about including MTV/VH1/BET play.

[dragonslair]

The Hot 100, and most other charts as well, are merely marketing tools for the music industry, why would you include a song not released as a song,e if you aren't going to make money off of it. So that's why non singles didn't chart,

Music videos were merely a form of advertising, yes some sold, but the format overall was far more an expense than a profit line, so again, no incentive to promote it and chart it,

It's not really that different today on the charts, the consumptions that count are those that generate revenue for the labels - you even get bonus points for the more profitable method of consumption, That's why it took forever to remove mass buying and bundles only removed once the headaches outweighed the profits) q, and why UGC is gone,

[firefox]

Jul 23, 2022 9:07:20 GMT -5 dremolus - solarpunk said:

Ayt so I'm gonna need Kate Bush's label to put this audio on Spotify

Also they should've released the remastered version of its mv

[lazer]

Jul 23, 2022 9:13:14 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Jul 23, 2022 9:00:37 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Right. But I could agree to including data from something like TRL for the Hot 100 if there was a tighter accountability to it (not that my opinion on that matters lol).

The Hot 100 is also called "Hot" for a reason. It's intended to represent what is "hot." To that end, younger demos tend to listen to new music more than older demos (at least stereotypically, but I think data supports that point). Out of that I do think something like TRL is more applicable to the Hot 100 than some other things. But again, TRL had its flaws to be sure.

They 💯 should have counted video airtime from TRL toward the Hot 100. And all music tv networks really. Base it off of individual program ratings of course. So if TRL was the top rated program, it would obviously have the biggest impact.

I don’t think Billboard ever counted tv networking toward the Hot 100, did it?

I always thought Smells Like Teen Spirit hit #1 but only reached #6. That song was on heavy rotation in MTV. Yeah, Billboard kinda undercounted TV videos too.

[dragonslair]

Jul 23, 2022 10:00:48 GMT -5 lazer said:

Jul 23, 2022 9:13:14 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

They 💯 should have counted video airtime from TRL toward the Hot 100. And all music tv networks really. Base it off of individual program ratings of course. So if TRL was the top rated program, it would obviously have the biggest impact.

I don’t think Billboard ever counted tv networking toward the Hot 100, did it?

I always thought Smells Like Teen Spirit hit #1 but only reached #6. That song was on heavy rotation in MTV. Yeah, Billboard kinda undercounted TV videos too.

But the label won, as the album was huge.  Selling the album was much more important than selling a single.

[lazer]

Jul 23, 2022 10:04:50 GMT -5 dragonslair said:

Jul 23, 2022 10:00:48 GMT -5 lazer said:

I always thought Smells Like Teen Spirit hit #1 but only reached #6. That song was on heavy rotation in MTV. Yeah, Billboard kinda undercounted TV videos too.

But the label won, as the album was huge.  Selling the album was much more important than selling a single.

I agree with that, Nevermind was one of the top selling albums of 1992 but you have to realize that SLTS was extremely massive at the time as well and was selling like hot cakes so it would reasonable if they had the #1 position.. Pearl Jam songs were greatly undercounted at the time and they were just as big as Nirvana in 1992.

[phieaglesfan712]

Don’t forget that Plush, which was in my opinion the best song of the 90s, didn’t even chart on the Hot 100. That one felt big in 1992/93.

[jenglisbe]

Jul 23, 2022 10:31:35 GMT -5 lazer said:

Jul 23, 2022 10:04:50 GMT -5 dragonslair said:

But the label won, as the album was huge.  Selling the album was much more important than selling a single.

I agree with that, Nevermind was one of the top selling albums of 1992 but you have to realize that SLTS was extremely massive at the time as well and was selling like hot cakes so it would reasonable if they had the #1 position.. Pearl Jam songs were greatly undercounted at the time and they were just as big as Nirvana in 1992.

"SLTS" sold well, yes, but you can't dismiss its competition either. For instance, when it first peaked at #6 the #1 song was Michael Jackson's "Black or White." That was a big song as well. At that time, "2 Legit 2 Quit" by Hammer was above "SLTS" on the Hot 100 and was actually #1 in sales. "SLTS" did eventually go to #1 in sales for 2 weeks. "All 4 Love" was #1 on the Hot 100 that first week with #4 sales and #1 airplay. "Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" was then #1 on the Hot 100 the next week with #4 sales and top 5 airplay. The real issue with the #6 peak for "SLTS" is that its airplay wasn't as high as it needed to be #1. That isn't Billboard's fault.

Jul 23, 2022 10:51:33 GMT -5 phieaglesfan712 said:

Don’t forget that Plush, which was in my opinion the best song of the 90s, didn’t even chart on the Hot 100. That one felt big in 1992/93.

Did "Plus" have a physical single? Regardless, it didn't make the top 10 at Top 40 radio so that was another aspect holding it back on the Hot 100.

[lazer]

Plush did reach top 20 in radio which should at least be eligible to chart in the Hot 100 if Billboard didn’t have those rules.

[gikem]

Jul 23, 2022 11:12:58 GMT -5 lazer said:

Plush did reach top 20 in radio which should at least be eligible to chart in the Hot 100 if Billboard didn’t have those rules.

That song reached a #18 peak on Pop. Overall, it peaked at #39 on Hot 100 Airplay, but stuck around for 29 weeks, more than most other airplay-only singles at the time.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Another thing maybe worth mentioning is that just because a song is #10 in airplay, doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t everywhere and not known by everyone. At some point, a song can become familiar by listeners without having to hear it on repeat the way you might hear the song at #1. And for points around songs that “felt bigger” or are “more remembered,” some songs just have a bigger presence that their chart performance may not lend support to. I’m sure most people who lived through the 90s know “Barbie Girl” and as known as that was and remains, it didn’t exactly burn up the charts. It wasn’t a huge radio hit (“Turn Back Time” outpeaked on pop radio) and I’m not sure how it did on the Hot 100 but the song itself was HUGE. It felt huge but the numbers don’t support that. That’s why feels can only go so far. Some songs are more instant, more memorable and more conversation-worthy, and those are all elements that contribute to how big a song can ‘feel’.

[dragonslair]

Jul 23, 2022 12:06:16 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Another thing maybe worth mentioning is that just because a song is #10 in airplay, doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t everywhere and not known by everyone. At some point, a song can become familiar by listeners without having to hear it on repeat the way you might hear the song at #1. And for points around songs that “felt bigger” or are “more remembered,” some songs just have a bigger presence that their chart performance may not lend support to. I’m sure most people who lived through the 90s know “Barbie Girl” and as known as that was and remains, it didn’t exactly burn up the charts. It wasn’t a huge radio hit (“Turn Back Time” outpeaked on pop radio) and I’m not sure how it did on the Hot 100 but the song itself was HUGE. It felt huge but the numbers don’t support that. That’s why feels can only go so far. Some songs are more instant, more memorable and more conversation-worthy, and those are all elements that contribute to how big a song can ‘feel’.

Hot 100 #7 (debut and peak)
radio songs #24
pop #15
and surprisingly rhythmic #8

And yes, the song was much more massive than the chart positions indicated. Or at least in perception, if not in actual performance.  Everybody knew it, everybody sung it.  But that didn't translate into actual airplay or sales enough for higher chart positions.

Songs like Barbie Girl are interesting, There aren't a lot of songs that are bigger culturally than their actual consumption.