Billboard Hot 100: 11/19/2022

[Az Paynter]

Gotta love when people bring up the 'abolish sales' thing as if Billboard didn't already nerf the problem with sales. At this point it's a you problem. Billboard did all they needed to.

[thyler]

Nov 11, 2022 3:11:28 GMT -5 kacpi said:

Well, at least something interesting is happening 💀 ngl I was getting bored with these 6 page in total weekly BH100 discussions on Pulse when literally no one was releasing music or making impact on the charts

same. i treat this threads as my morning newspaper, so any type of interactions in here is interesting but sometimes, arguments get too personal and off-topic

[Fanstar1]

Nov 11, 2022 3:28:55 GMT -5 Az Paynter said:

Gotta love when people bring up the 'abolish sales' thing as if Billboard didn't already nerf the problem with sales. At this point it's a you problem. Billboard did all they needed to.

I think streams should be buffed by bringing back logged out and youtube ugc (along with making paid = free), rather than nerfing either of the other 2 formats.

[jasper0102]

What the f*ck just happened part 2 electric boogaloo

[Choco]

Streaming is fine. Drake is accurately getting 8 or 9 top 10s this week based mostly on streams.

[kimberly]

Nov 11, 2022 3:28:55 GMT -5 Az Paynter said:

Gotta love when people bring up the 'abolish sales' thing as if Billboard didn't already nerf the problem with sales. At this point it's a you problem. Billboard did all they needed to.

eh, they've tried to solve it and made it considerably better doesn't mean they can't work on resolving this issue in full.

I don't think sales should be gone completely but their impact needs to be minimized, especially in scenarios where there is an outlier. in a climate where all regular Top 10 hits are selling 10k max, why would a song be selling over 100k if not for chart manipulation? sales is not the dominant form of consuming songs anymore, and it shouldn't be the determining factor for the chart topper either. especially when those fans are streaming the song already.

[Fanstar1]

Nov 11, 2022 3:51:33 GMT -5 Choco said:

Streaming is fine. Drake is accurately getting 8 or 9 top 10s this week based mostly on streams.

(More like 7 but in any case) Those changes probably wouldn't affect drake much anyways, as he is a juggernaut mainly on Apple Music and to a lesser extent spotify, where the vast majority of streams are paid. I was talking more about songs that are under-represented on the hot 100 due to a large portion of their streams being from user generated content (like Way Less Sad by AJR and Unstoppable by Sia) and more streaming-centered songs with bad paid:free ratios (for example literally everything YoungBoy Never Broke Again puts out).

[Choco]

Yeah they might have defeated BTS' sales manipulation but Taylor, Rihanna and Nicki for example keep gaming the sales game for chart purposes only. Limit them to one purchase per song regardless of version and I guarantee all these "random remix I just happened to have" will stop happening. Let alone "new digital single cover!"

[Az Paynter]

Mmm... nope. Closing the sales abuse loophole was all Billboard needed to do. Beyond that you're delving into the dichotomy of can vs. should (ie. CAN you? Yes. SHOULD you?).

Labels and artists have no way of knowing how much these alternate versions are going to actually sell until it happens. Sure, they can intuit and play into the psychology of hardcore supporters but they can't *know*. For all we're aware the plan was always to stagger these Taylor remixes out to keep the train rolling but when they saw how much of a leg-up one remix did, they saw an opportunity to keep Taylor competitive for #1 on the Hot 100 by dropping the rest of them in the same week. It's all strategy. And in the end it's not even guaranteed to work, so all they can do is run with it and see how it happens.

I'll give you the alternate covers thing is bunk. Alternate versions? So they can either give you one at a time piecemeal or drop the entire EP in one hit. In the end you're still gonna have the same number of versions out there and those prepared to shell out for every one of them is still going to do so, meaning in the end you'll still end up with the same number of units sold. What else can you actually change without punishing the consumer for actually doing what the label wants them to do (ie. buy music)?

[king_billboard_100]

Swift apocalypse

[king_billboard_100]

Still rooting for Drake to reach his 12th #1, Taylor can keeps Anti-Hero for 3-5 weeks later

[kimberly]

Nov 11, 2022 4:20:40 GMT -5 Az Paynter said:

What else can you actually change without punishing the consumer for actually doing what the label wants them to do (ie. buy music)?

not reward the $0.69 web-store exclusive remixes, lol. you're so close to getting it.

they're a method that only really works for artists with massive fan bases (who don't need the extra buck). because NO ONE SERIOUSLY BUYS INDIVIDUAL SONGS ANY MORE.

digital music sales comprise less than 10% of music consumption in the US, closer to 5% I believe, and a chunk of that is album sales. no song should be able to make the Top 10 on the Hot 100 with over 55% its points from sales, like that BTS and Snoop Dogg song from August, for example. or the random right-wing songs charting because of iTunes downloads (from people who might not even hear the song, ever, but choose to spend $0.99 to "own the libs").

I don't understand your point about punishing the consumer. do you mean the same 5 artists exploiting their fans by throwing them poorly-done remixes and versions? I think it'll be fine if we stop getting "Sad Girl Autumn Versions" and "Cooler/Hotter/Nighttime/Daytime Remixes." that's not punishing the consumer or censoring art -- it's averting fan exploitation and chart manipulation.

[Fanstar1]

Nov 11, 2022 4:50:17 GMT -5 kimberly said:

Nov 11, 2022 4:20:40 GMT -5 Az Paynter said:

What else can you actually change without punishing the consumer for actually doing what the label wants them to do (ie. buy music)?

not reward the $0.69 web-store exclusive remixes, lol. you're so close to getting it.

they're a method that only really works for artists with massive fan bases (who don't need the extra buck). because NO ONE SERIOUSLY BUYS INDIVIDUAL SONGS ANY MORE.

digital music sales comprise less than 10% of music consumption in the US, closer to 5% I believe, and a chunk of that is album sales. no song should be able to make the Top 10 on the Hot 100 with over 55% its points from sales, like that BTS and Snoop Dogg song from August, for example. or the random right-wing songs charting because of iTunes downloads (from people who might not even hear the song, ever, but choose to spend $0.99 to "own the libs").

I don't understand your point about punishing the consumer. do you mean the same 5 artists exploiting their fans by throwing them poorly-done remixes and versions? I think it'll be fine if we stop getting "Sad Girl Autumn Versions" and "Cooler/Hotter/Nighttime/Daytime Remixes." that's not punishing the consumer or censoring art -- it's averting fan exploitation and chart manipulation.

IIRC about 1/3rd of Bad Decision's sales (so about 22 thousand of its ~65 thousand total) were from physical singles.

[Az Paynter]

Nov 11, 2022 4:50:17 GMT -5 kimberly said:

Nov 11, 2022 4:20:40 GMT -5 Az Paynter said:

What else can you actually change without punishing the consumer for actually doing what the label wants them to do (ie. buy music)?

not reward the $0.69 web-store exclusive remixes, lol.

So what are you saying here, then? Abolish discounts altogether? Or gatekeep where sales are allowed to come from?

they're a method that only really works for artists with massive fan bases (who don't need the extra buck). because NO ONE SERIOUSLY BUYS INDIVIDUAL SONGS ANY MORE.

...and? You're saying it shouldn't count at all because only specific individuals do it? That circles back around to gatekeeping.

no song should be able to make the Top 10 on the Hot 100 with over 55% its points from sales, like that BTS and Snoop Dogg song from August, for example.

Again, what are you saying? Are you implying that songs can chart well if the majority share of their points comes from airplay or streaming? Because if streaming-led or airplay-led hits are fair game then so are sales-led hits. Once again, you can't gatekeep what can and cannot count.

I don't understand your point about punishing the consumer.

Because your point reads more like a call to gatekeep everything and delegitimize what's left of the sales market. And you want to tell me "you're so close to getting it"?

do you mean the same 5 artists exploiting their fans by throwing them poorly-done remixes and versions? I think it'll be fine if we stop getting "Sad Girl Autumn Versions" and "Cooler/Hotter/Nighttime/Daytime Remixes." that's not punishing the consumer or censoring art -- it's averting fan exploitation and chart manipulation.

The BTS sales bot farm operation was chart manipulation. If Taylor and Nicki can move the same numbers of units after the sales abuse loophole was closed, surely that means that a much greater number of people are taking the time and money to buy product? That's not manipulation, it's not being driven by a minority. Sure it looks distasteful to pump out several versions in the way they have but it's not illegal and the labels have no incentive to change anything. Nor do the artists for that matter. If they've got the fanbase why not? Buyers can only make one sale anyway, once someone's bought all five versions of 'Anti-Hero' that's it - and you know this. To go so far as "fan exploitation" is a reach. They've got the choice to not engage. They've got the choice to wait for streaming and see if they like it before they buy. IF they're going ahead anyway, they know what they're doing.

[rimetm]

Nov 11, 2022 6:07:10 GMT -5 Az Paynter said:

So what are you saying here, then? [...] gatekeep where sales are allowed to come from?

You're saying it shouldn't count at all because only specific individuals do it? That circles back around to gatekeeping.

Once again, you can't gatekeep what can and cannot count.

Because your point reads more like a call to gatekeep everything and delegitimize what's left of the sales market. And you want to tell me "you're so close to getting it"?

The BTS sales bot farm operation was chart manipulation.

Like it or not, the BTS sales were from real people too, just fewer of them taking advantage of more offers more often in part thanks to fund pooling. You go on and on about gatekeeping, but in both characterizing them as bots and declaring their tactics worth being taken out by the rules, you yourself are engaging in gatekeeping. Basically, get off your high horse and be willing to admit that these other tactics can be plausibly seen as manipulative in exactly the same way.

[Az Paynter]

Lmao what even? Where did anyone ever say the BTS sales weren't from real people? Where did anyone ever say there were actual bots? "Bot" can be shorthand for "robotic" which, if the same tiny group of people were week-in week-out bumping blocks of BTS sales every day like clockwork, that would be pretty 'robotic' would it not? Billboard said no, you can't do that anymore. One, and you're done. It took them way too long to get there, but they did it.

As for that "high horse" bit, re-think who you're directing that one at.

[dremolus - solarpunk]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[cooper]

Nov 11, 2022 1:44:58 GMT -5 lazer said:

It doesn't matter if it's from Taylor Swift or BTS, this practice should be called out.

Guys, stop saying things in reference to Taylor Swift that aren’t praise or otherwise positive! /J

[firefox]

Nov 6, 2022 8:17:32 GMT -5 firefox said:

This Drake and 21 Savage thread is boring af. 😩

[M5AGTS]

Nov 11, 2022 1:18:28 GMT -5 Music Fan said:

Taylor is worse than BTS, now. I said it. Fight me if you want, idc.

Imo, the only thing worse about this situation is that Anti Hero is already massive without the separate versions. She doesn't need to do all this, but she's doing it anyway, which is frustrating.

[king_billboard_100]

Nov 11, 2022 6:50:45 GMT -5 Az Paynter said:

Lmao what even? Where did anyone ever say the BTS sales weren't from real people? Where did anyone ever say there were actual bots? "Bot" can be shorthand for "robotic" which, if the same tiny group of people were week-in week-out bumping blocks of BTS sales every day like clockwork, that would be pretty 'robotic' would it not? Billboard said no, you can't do that anymore. One, and you're done. It took them way too long to get there, but they did it.

As for that "high horse" bit, re-think who you're directing that one at.

I actually agree nobody listen to BTS 😂

[jenglisbe]

Nov 10, 2022 17:00:03 GMT -5 85la said:

Interesting though that they count re-recordings (such as the Taylor's Versions, or the Ariana/Jennifer Hudson re-recording of Oh Santa!) as separate entries, which I guess is technically justifiable, even though those recordings are sonically far more similiar to the originals than other remixes are to their respective originals.

Well, for one label issues might come in as versions being on separate labels are going to have separate catalog numbers and such, so they’re always going to be counted separately I’d imagine. But also Billboard automatically counts a remix as a new/separate version if it comes out much later than the original (not sure how much later, but definitely if they are years apart). Look at the ‘remix’ for Mariah’s “Oh Santa” which has the same production and even same Mariah vocals as the original, it just adds in Ariana and J Hud. It’s counted as a new song, not a remix.

[kierz7]

I know Twitter is a hell-hole (which I love) but some of the comments and conversations on and about this topic and Swift is taking me OUT.

🌚

[thegreatdivine]

Now I'm a Taylor Swift hater lol. Oh well.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Nov 11, 2022 8:09:18 GMT -5 kierz7 said:

I know Twitter is a hell-hole (which I love) but some of the comments and conversations on and about this topic and Swift is taking me OUT.

🌚

Not sure I would say insecure is the right word here exactly. I don't think Taylor lacks confidence in regard to chart success. lol Maybe selfish is a better word for the narrative they're pushing?

Meanwhile I am so glad Twitter is dying. What a vile, toxic environment. lol

[enwhy]

Tbh I'm not even sure how to effectively curb sales impact further. Maybe limit sales to 2 versions per buyer per week? That way you could do the OG and the remix, but none of this cash grab nonsense.

Some people here argue that sales will never be disregarded because that's a major way the industry makes money. That's true, but I think it does some reputational damage to the chart every time a fanbase mass buys to get a #1. I mean, BTS has like six #1s in the past couple years and no one cares except their stans. At least Taylor's songs are streaming well.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

I mean, most people here (myself included) have already agreed that Taylor’s shenanigans are suspect to some degree. I’m not sure why people are still so upset. It’s not like any of us control what Billboard chooses to do. We may as well do what we do with every other #1 and add an asterisk. ™️

[jenglisbe]

Nov 11, 2022 8:48:19 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

I’m not sure why people are still so upset.

Because each time it affecta a different artist/fan group, or at least potentially does (from "Old Town Road" to "AIWFCIY" last season to whatever songs would have been top 10 release week to Rihanna last week to Drake this time). So, if nothing else, it's upsetting a different group of stans each time. On top of that we do seem to be at a point of, "When will it be enough?" Like, yeah ok, make sure to grab a #1 with "Witch" but what does a third week at #1 for the current one really matter?

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Nov 11, 2022 8:53:11 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Nov 11, 2022 8:48:19 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

I’m not sure why people are still so upset.

Because each time it affecta a different artist/fan group, or at least potentially does (from "Old Town Road" to "AIWFCIY" last season to whatever songs would have been top 10 release week to Rihanna last week to Drake this time). So, if nothing else, it's upsetting a different group of stans each time. On top of that we do seem to be at a point of, "When will it be enough?" Like, yeah ok, make sure to grab a #1 with "Witch" but what does a third week at #1 for the current one really matter?

I mean this week’s example. Maybe people aren’t outraged enough? Idk

[jenglisbe]

Nov 11, 2022 8:57:16 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Nov 11, 2022 8:53:11 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Because each time it affecta a different artist/fan group, or at least potentially does (from "Old Town Road" to "AIWFCIY" last season to whatever songs would have been top 10 release week to Rihanna last week to Drake this time). So, if nothing else, it's upsetting a different group of stans each time. On top of that we do seem to be at a point of, "When will it be enough?" Like, yeah ok, make sure to grab a #1 with "Witch" but what does a third week at #1 for the current one really matter?

I mean this week’s example. Maybe people aren’t outraged enough? Idk

I mean, I guess it also depends how one defines "upset" or "outrage" and such. Speaking for myself only, just because I post annoyance with something in a thread here doesn't mean I am thinking about it when I'm not on Pulse; this stuff doesn't ever really affect my actual day lmao.