badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Nov 29, 2022 15:04:36 GMT -5
I keep thinking that removing UGC was one of the biggest mistakes they made on the Hot 100. TikTok/Instagram/etc are a primary way that a lot of people are encountering music and it's not represented on the Hot 100. I also would love to see if bringing back UGC diminished the impact of holiday songs -- I don't really have a good gauge of whether they get used a lot for those things.
An absolutely ~wild~ idea for a chart would be to just straight up add the total number of "listens" of a song. Total streams + total airplay impressions (including UGC). Sales excluded. No weights applied. I think reintroducing UGC would probably get streaming numbers on par or above airplay numbers too. It moves it out of the abstract of "points" to something that is a bit more objective and grounded.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 29, 2022 15:07:25 GMT -5
Streaming-era has already taken care of most of the long standing longevity records
The Brenda Lee song for example, has been around for 64 years, muted from charted for 50 of those years,
If today's rules had been in place the whole time, Christmas songs would already hold all the records
Perhaps, one way to look at statistics would be to separate Christmas and non-Christmas since they follow different statistical patterns
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otaviohmg
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Post by otaviohmg on Nov 29, 2022 15:15:52 GMT -5
Brenda better come up here and get one of these
What's that?
Issa number one 💅
From where?
Billboard Hot 100
What's on in?
Superior. I got Amazon Sales, AC Radio Audience, Streams, Holiday Playlist.
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Nov 29, 2022 15:18:23 GMT -5
I keep thinking that removing UGC was one of the biggest mistakes they made on the Hot 100. TikTok/Instagram/etc are a primary way that a lot of people are encountering music and it's not represented on the Hot 100. I also would love to see if bringing back UGC diminished the impact of holiday songs -- I don't really have a good gauge of whether they get used a lot for those things. An absolutely ~wild~ idea for a chart would be to just straight up add the total number of "listens" of a song. Total streams + total airplay impressions (including UGC). Sales excluded. No weights applied. I think reintroducing UGC would probably get streaming numbers on par or above airplay numbers too. It moves it out of the abstract of "points" to something that is a bit more objective and grounded. To me UGC streams are akin to a commercial tbh. When someone goes on TikTok or Instagram they are not specifically trying to listen to a song, they just get a video put on their timeline by an algorithm that decides for them and it happens to include music (they were not aware of). It’s also for a very short clip, they are hearing a tiny portion of a song in the background of something else. Like a commercial showing a small preview of a new TV episode or movie. If the clip containing the music truly resonates with people, they then go to a streaming service and actually consume the song individually. If a commercial resonates with people they then go watch the TV/movie that was promoted. It’s a promotional tool. The Soko “We Might Be Dead by Tomorrow” instances comes to mind, charting top 10 for 1 week then completely leaving. Was it ever popular as a song, or was it just background music in a viral clip lol? |
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Post by Push The Button on Nov 29, 2022 15:22:43 GMT -5
It's also gonna f**k up longevity records, all these songs are gonna crawl past Blinding Lights and Heat Waves eventually and Mariah is gonna get the longest-running #1 single record from Old Town Road eventually. Christmas songs shouldn't hold these records, especially when they are only popular for 6 weeks outta the whole year. The only reason those two songs have longevity records is because of streaming…the same reason Christmas songs dominate every year. |
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 29, 2022 15:25:56 GMT -5
what if today's technology existed back to 1958
What if artists all the way back to 1958 could chart every single all at once, rather than the old-school way of one-at-a-time?
What if Christmas songs could chart between 1963 and 2012?
All those records in place now, would look very different
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Post by nathanalbright on Nov 29, 2022 15:30:04 GMT -5
I suppose the only thing as perennial as the Christmas songs themselves is the repetitious arguments we have about them.
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wavey.
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Post by wavey. on Nov 29, 2022 16:09:01 GMT -5
I suppose the only thing as perennial as the Christmas songs themselves is the repetitious arguments we have about them. Sjsjsksjsjdjjdjdjdjdjdj |
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Nov 29, 2022 16:25:04 GMT -5
To me UGC streams are akin to a commercial tbh. When someone goes on TikTok or Instagram they are not specifically trying to listen to a song, they just get a video put on their timeline by an algorithm that decides for them and it happens to include music (they were not aware of). It’s also for a very short clip, they are hearing a tiny portion of a song in the background of something else. Like a commercial showing a small preview of a new TV episode or movie. If the clip containing the music truly resonates with people, they then go to a streaming service and actually consume the song individually. If a commercial resonates with people they then go watch the TV/movie that was promoted. It’s a promotional tool. The Soko “We Might Be Dead by Tomorrow” instances comes to mind, charting top 10 for 1 week then completely leaving. Was it ever popular as a song, or was it just background music in a viral clip lol? I think TikTok is a bit different. The algorithm will show you random viral videos, but they pay attention to how fast you scroll past clips using x song, so if they conclude that you like the audio, it'll give you more and more videos using it. It learns your taste and caters to it much more quickly and accurately than something like Spotify random shuffle. I'm able to basically ignore any songs that I dislike, because after a few quick skips, the TikTok algorithm doesn't show them to me anymore, even if it's part of a huge trend. And, there are a lot of songs like Lizzo's About Damn Time that I heard so much on TikTok because I liked it. I would let the videos loop a few times before passing, so TikTok decided to keep showing videos with the song to me. Sure, I downloaded it on Apple Music and played it another 20 times there, on my way to work or whatever, but it feels like I've played it 50+ times, and not because it was forced on me, but because TikTok read my mind. It's pretty common to have a niche audio shown to you, and then after the 10th video you think it's a huge viral trend, but when you check the profile you see that it's only been used for like 326 videos, and the reason you saw those several videos was because TikTok saw that you liked them all. It's nothing like a commercial where you literally just get shown whatever a company paid to show you. I mean technically radio and Spotify playlists are also just promotional tools, to get people to buy tickets to your tour. But who is liking a TikTok because the *audio*? Usually it’s the video content — if it’s funny, a cool dance, whatever in the video. The audio is a background accessory. People don’t go on TikTok to listen to a song. They go on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, iTunes, or turn on radio. Commercials and advertisements on all platforms are pretty much also curated to your taste. If you search things on Google you then get ads based on your search. If you are watching a TV show on a network primarily for young women aged 18-25… the commercials are meant to target the demographic of women aged 18-25. Instagram lets you click “not interested” on ads to get ones more curated to your taste. Something being curated heavily does not mean it still can’t be akin to a commercial/ad lol. People are using Spotify specifically to seek out and consume music. |
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Nov 29, 2022 16:55:07 GMT -5
But who is liking a TikTok because the *audio*? Usually it’s the video content — if it’s funny, a cool dance, whatever in the video. The audio is a background accessory. People don’t go on TikTok to listen to a song. They go on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, iTunes, or turn on radio. Commercials and advertisements on all platforms are pretty much also curated to your taste. If you search things on Google you then get ads based on your search. If you are watching a TV show on a network primarily for young women aged 18-25… the commercials are meant to target the demographic of women aged 18-25. TikTok (and all other algorithms) are waaay more complicated than "women aged 18-25". In 2022 they use neural networks and stuff that even the developers barely understand, and just accept that it works extremely well. Also "meant to target" means some corporate executive decided that people want to hear "Music in a Sushi Restaurant", not any sort of personally targeted algorithm. You also can't just isolate "video content" from the underlying music. The text, the effects, and the audio all work together to make a video "good" or "bad". A lot of the funniest content is made even more funny from the perfect use of audio. Another example. If you watched the Bad Romance video on Youtube 30 times trying to learn the dance routine, or just watching Beyonce dance to Single Ladies 30 times because it's fun to watch, is that any different from choosing to watch 30 videos of random people dancing to Say So? (apart from the length). In general, if you watched the video for Blank Space 20 times because it's soo good, while vibing to the song, were you consuming the song or the video? This is a separate point, but I wonder if TikTok core users and radio users even have a significant overlap. I personally haven't listened to radio since 2009 when my mom drove me to school... We've had VEVO for the past 13 years. Though to be honest I also haven't watched TV in 10 years or gotten many advertisements online, because I use adblock and/or premium subscriptions. I can watch a TikTok 20 times because it is hilarious and not really care for or pay attention to the song that was in the background for 5 seconds. I doubt anyone watches a music video 20 times and doesn’t care about the song? Ofcourse a song being used heavily on TikTok usually means it is liked by a big audience, and that should translate to platforms where it is directly consumed. If you watch a TikTok 20 times because you happen to love a song… why wouldn’t you also be streaming/buying it? We likewise see many songs go hugely viral on TikTok for one week, then disappear and never chart on any platforms — maybe because it just fit a funny video or a top account or two used the audio. It wasn’t connecting and thus that showed in translation to its direct consumption. I think if a song is generally just being well received and loved on TikTok it will do damage on other services. |
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hughster1
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Post by hughster1 on Nov 29, 2022 17:46:25 GMT -5
So to quote "Radar Love": Brenda Lee's comin' on strong! |
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bat1990
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Post by bat1990 on Nov 29, 2022 17:58:39 GMT -5
I personally have never liked "Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree" that much so I'm always surprised it's the second most popular after AIWFCIY.
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Nov 29, 2022 17:59:47 GMT -5
I can watch a TikTok 20 times because it is hilarious and not really care for or pay attention to the song that was in the background for 5 seconds. I doubt anyone watches a music video 20 times and doesn’t care about the song? Ofcourse a song being used heavily on TikTok usually means it is liked by a big audience, and that should translate to platforms where it is directly consumed. If you watch a TikTok 20 times because you happen to love a song… why wouldn’t you also be streaming/buying it? We likewise see many songs go hugely viral on TikTok for one week, then disappear and never chart on any platforms — maybe because it just fit a funny video or a top account or two used the audio. It wasn’t connecting and thus that showed in translation to its direct consumption. I think if a song is generally just being well received and loved on TikTok it will do damage on other services. I get your point and agree that in many cases a specific viewer doesn't necessarily care about the song, I just think that if many videos using a song are viral on TikTok then that's a decent indication that it's somewhat popular for many people, even without Spotify data. No measure is perfect, sure, but I mean just a few months ago we saw people be SHOCKED at Sam Smith's Spotify debut, despite being completely obvious from the TikTok stats in the month prior. Same with Nicki's Super Freaky Girl. Have there been any songs that were super viral on TikTok and then completely flopped on Spotify when they were released? I guess Light Switch didn't really do that well. But then we have Made You Look which seemed to flop at first, despite being viral since day 1, and now somehow smashing anyway. I wish I had infinite time to dive into the data on these, lol. I think it's really interesting to see how the human mind works and processes these types of media. Radio, Tiktok, Youtube, Spotify, everything is correlated with each other and provide measures of popularity from various aspects, but I don't think any of them are perfect measures of popularity. Not even Spotify... (and to tie it back to this thread,) Christmas songs are a great example of that. 10 million streams for dozens of Christmas songs on Christmas day. How many of those people are actively listening, and chose that specific song? Or, did they just click "Christmas Playlist 2022" and let it play in the background while unwrapping gifts... not really direct consumption in that case. I think you bring up a decent area of discussion with Unholy/Super Freaky Girl/First Class though. Unreleased songs get teased on TikTok frequently, how would Billboard handle that if they were to count TikTok towards charting? Even again, that still draws back why I feel TikTok is more a commercial/promotional tool for music. You highlighted instances of it being used to gain familiarity for music prior to release. Those songs smashed out the gate and did what they did on platforms because TikTok promotion resonated to direct consumption. TikTok was treated as a form of advertising prior to release. |
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kierz7
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Post by kierz7 on Nov 29, 2022 18:08:35 GMT -5
I personally have never liked "Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree" that much so I'm always surprised it's the second most popular after AIWFCIY. Well, with “RATCT” having been used in multiple, famous, modern Xmas or Xmas-adjacent movies ie. “Home Alone, How The Grinch Stole Xmas, Santa Claus” etc. it’s easy to see why it’s become such a staple. The same goes for “It’s The Most Wonderful Time Of The Year”. The number of times I’ve heard that song in Xmas adverts/commercials is unreal. |
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Post by Baby Yoda Hot100Fan on Nov 29, 2022 18:10:46 GMT -5
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Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ
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Post by Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ on Nov 29, 2022 18:18:54 GMT -5
It'd be so cool to see RATCT at #1  |
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pnobelysk
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Post by pnobelysk on Nov 29, 2022 18:20:06 GMT -5
Do we think an anti hero remix is coming? This would likely be the last week of the year that could still work for her
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Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ
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Post by Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ on Nov 29, 2022 18:23:46 GMT -5
Do we think an anti hero remix is coming? This would likely be the last week of the year that could still work for her Thursday night probably. |
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HamedM1 💔
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Post by HamedM1 💔 on Nov 29, 2022 18:24:39 GMT -5
Can I have my Anti-Hero (DJ Sabrina the Teenage DJ Remix) dream manifested yet?
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JukeboxJacob
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Post by JukeboxJacob on Nov 29, 2022 18:37:56 GMT -5
I hoped this was the year Billboard finally caved in & made a separate chart without album or Christmas bombs. Oh well, guess I'll do this instead
Notable Hot 100 positions WITHOUT Christmas, Taylor Swift (except #1), Drake (except #2 + Jimmy Cooks), OR Lil Baby
New peaks are bolded
1. Anti-Hero
2. Rich Flex
3. Unholy
4. Bad Habit
5. I'm Good
6. As It Was
7. Lift Me Up
8. Die For You
9. You Proof
10. Under The Influence
12. Cuff It
16. Just Wanna Rock
18. Made You Look
25. Golden Hour
37. Hotel Lobby
45. Free Mind
46. Billie Eilish
49. Calm Down
53. Down In Atlanta (Debut)
54. Miss You
SONGS EXCLUDED:
-12 Christmas
-12 Taylor Swift
-13 Drake
-3 Lil Baby
Some deserving songs on the rise amidst the chaos!
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hughster1
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Post by hughster1 on Nov 29, 2022 18:46:08 GMT -5
As boring and tired as the discussion is… It’d be nice to see Ms. Lee & “RATCT” take the top spot for just one week. “AIWCIY” will surpass it the following week and probably be #1 until the first week of January anyway so now’s the perfect time. And speaking of Christmas songs breaking records... If she pulls it off, Brenda Lee will shatter two records currently held by Cher (or, depending on how you measure, one by Cher and one by Mariah Carey): - Longest gap between number one songs - currently 24 years, 355 days between "Dark Lady" in March 1974 and "Believe" in March 1999; Brenda will have 62 years, 1 month, and 2 weeks since "I Want to Be Wanted" in October 1960 - Longest gap between first and most recent number one songs - currently 35 years, 7 months, and 2 weeks between "I Got You Babe" in August 1965 to "Believe" in March 1999 (if you count only Cher's solo performances then Mariah holds the record of 29 years, 4 months and 2 weeks between "Vision of Love" in August 1990 to "AIWFCIY" in December 2019); Brenda will have 62 years, 4 months, and 3 weeks since "I'm Sorry" in July 1960. |
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Post by ificanthaveyou on Nov 29, 2022 20:23:31 GMT -5
Y’all act like every Christmas song ever recorded occupy the entirety of the Hot 100 (positions 1-100 every year). That’s not even the case. It’s most akin to an album bomb (like with Taylor and Drake a few weeks back). It’s not like Cozy Little Christmas is blocking anyone top 20.
I didn’t hear anyone crying when Thriller re-charts either. The fact of the matter is that these songs are likely the most iconic, most popular songs of all time and if the metrics allow them to chart high, they should be allowed to. There are Tik Tok songs that have the same nichey feel but alas it’s a chart that reflects popularity.
Plus I don’t know why some of y’all make the Hot 100 out to be something that it’s not. It’s not intended to be some “time capsule” or a reflection of today’s culture or climate. It’s literally just meant to rank songs based on their popularity. You can perceive it however you want to, but at its core it just ranks songs based on the metrics it gauges. Why would you want to manipulate the charts to reflect otherwise?
By the logic of not allowing a Christmas song to re-chart, then anytime an icon dies (Whitney, Michael, Prince) they should not be allowed to re-enter.
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Nov 29, 2022 20:35:19 GMT -5
Plus I don’t know why some of y’all make the Hot 100 out to be something that it’s not. It’s not intended to be some “time capsule” or a reflection of today’s culture or climate. It’s literally just meant to rank songs based on their popularity. So why do recurrent rules exist?  |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Nov 29, 2022 21:05:21 GMT -5
Plus I don’t know why some of y’all make the Hot 100 out to be something that it’s not. It’s not intended to be some “time capsule” or a reflection of today’s culture or climate. It’s literally just meant to rank songs based on their popularity. So why do recurrent rules exist? Good question. They're passe by this point and ultimately should probably stop being a thing. Billboard did cease the catalogue albums thing for the album chart. The way people consume music these days, it makes sense to drop recurrent rules now too. |
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jasper0102
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Post by jasper0102 on Nov 29, 2022 21:40:39 GMT -5
Argh, it's gonna suck watching "Die For You" and "Cuff It" blocked from the top 10 by Christmas music. Hopefully they can hold on through to the new year. They probably will, it depends more on whether we are willing to wait another month to see them in the Top 10. |
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jasper0102
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I CAN GET BY THE DAYS JUST FINE BUT THE NIGHTS
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Post by jasper0102 on Nov 29, 2022 21:42:05 GMT -5
It’d be fun to have Brenda be at number one this week while Mariah takes it for the rest of the Christmas season. |
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chartfreak
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Post by chartfreak on Nov 29, 2022 22:49:18 GMT -5
Right, let's give Brenda at least a week at #1.
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Post by thegreatdivine on Nov 29, 2022 22:51:50 GMT -5
I'm guessing the entire top 5-top 7 will be Christmas songs for the 17-12-2022 chart and the entire top 10 will be Christmas songs for the 24-12-2022 chart. Yawn. |
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 29, 2022 22:59:39 GMT -5
I'm guessing the entire top 5-top 7 will be Christmas songs for the 17-12-2022 chart and the entire top 10 will be Christmas songs for the 24-12-2022 chart. Yawn. Better than that I think, the 1-1-22 chart had 32 Christmas songs in the top 50 -- the way things are going, that number will be higher before the season is over |
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JukeboxJacob
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Post by JukeboxJacob on Nov 29, 2022 23:24:06 GMT -5
I keep thinking that removing UGC was one of the biggest mistakes they made on the Hot 100. TikTok/Instagram/etc are a primary way that a lot of people are encountering music and it's not represented on the Hot 100. I also would love to see if bringing back UGC diminished the impact of holiday songs -- I don't really have a good gauge of whether they get used a lot for those things. An absolutely ~wild~ idea for a chart would be to just straight up add the total number of "listens" of a song. Total streams + total airplay impressions (including UGC). Sales excluded. No weights applied. I think reintroducing UGC would probably get streaming numbers on par or above airplay numbers too. It moves it out of the abstract of "points" to something that is a bit more objective and grounded. this is the kinda forward thinking Billboard lacks. TikTok is a valid form of music consumption that should've been incorporated in the chart since at least late 2018. Also, there's also no reason we couldn't have ~separate charts~ |
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