weaver
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Post by weaver on Jun 8, 2009 20:38:22 GMT -5
I don't know if it's "normal marketing" if there is such a thing, but it is surely a marketing strategy.
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seanblain
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Post by seanblain on Jun 8, 2009 20:42:54 GMT -5
I'd have to agree, even though "Take a Bow" was repressed, it probably would've hit #1 at some point later in it's chart life due to how much of a massive cross over urban hit it became. "Disturbia" was a #1 hit too and that song was not repressed. I think people call out Mariah more because a lot of her #1 hits were weak airplay hits. Rihanna's #1s were all huge radio hits, whereas only some of the later Mariah singles were. Yes, "We Belong Together" and "Don't Forget About Us" were Rihanna sized hits, WBT being the biggest radio hit of the decade, but i'd have to agree that "Touch my Body" "Honey" "My All" "Heartbreaker" and "Thank God I Found You" were not even close to deserving #1 status.. Mariah's hits are very deserving. Her first weeks sales and achievements are impressive. Those hits are "deserving". Touch My Body- 286K- Set a digital record for first week salesHoney-250K- Record-Breaking 3rd Mariah single to debut at #1 on Hot 100My All-200K -Record 13th #1 on the Hot 100 for a femaleHeartbreaker-273K- Passes Beatles for most week ever at #1 on the Hot 100Thank God I Found You-250K- Marked the 11th straight year Mariah topped the Hot 100
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 8, 2009 20:50:42 GMT -5
Those hits are "deserving". Honey-250K- Record-Breaking 3rd Mariah single to debut at #1 on Hot 100My All-200K -Record 13th #1 on the Hot 100 for a femaleHeartbreaker-273K- Passes Beatles for most week ever at #1 on the Hot 100Thank God I Found You-250K- Marked the 11th straight year Mariah topped the Hot 100 That's what entire thread is about though (getting to #1 on Hot 100 potentially through repressing downloads/singles)...debuting at #1 is almost proof of that Think I understand now though that it just comes down to whether people think repressing downloads/singles is "fair play" in the industry
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seanblain
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Post by seanblain on Jun 8, 2009 22:17:48 GMT -5
Those hits are "deserving". Honey-250K- Record-Breaking 3rd Mariah single to debut at #1 on Hot 100My All-200K -Record 13th #1 on the Hot 100 for a femaleHeartbreaker-273K- Passes Beatles for most week ever at #1 on the Hot 100Thank God I Found You-250K- Marked the 11th straight year Mariah topped the Hot 100 That's what entire thread is about though (getting to #1 on Hot 100 potentially through repressing downloads/singles)...debuting at #1 is almost proof of that Think I understand now though that it just comes down to whether people think repressing downloads/singles is "fair play" in the industry Even if Mariah didn't have those 5 hits, she would still have more #1 hits than any female ;)
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summers
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Post by summers on Jun 8, 2009 23:30:36 GMT -5
Lol at 2m being ignored. And he's probably the most logical and unbiased person in this thread so far...
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 8, 2009 23:42:58 GMT -5
Hey I PM'd him to find out more about download repression...he was basically the one that was able to explain both sides of the argument to me - 2m's the man (BTW no clue who's biased and who's not cause a lotta people here work for Billboard, esp. on these opinion forums, and they've gotta protect the integrity of their chart)
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 8, 2009 23:45:51 GMT -5
That's what entire thread is about though (getting to #1 on Hot 100 potentially through repressing downloads/singles)...debuting at #1 is almost proof of that Think I understand now though that it just comes down to whether people think repressing downloads/singles is "fair play" in the industry Even if Mariah didn't have those 5 hits, she would still have more #1 hits than any female ;) Yeah I'll def. give her that...it's just the Beatles and Elvis thing that starts to bother me lol
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summers
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Post by summers on Jun 8, 2009 23:49:59 GMT -5
(BTW no clue who's biased and who's not cause a lotta people here work for Billboard, esp. on these opinion forums) I actually meant the Mariah fans (or non-fans for that matter), but I guess you're right. Those people working for Billboard can be considered as biased too (I didn't realize we have lots of them here :o).
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 0:03:25 GMT -5
^Yeah I'm just glad I (think I) finally have a feel for both sides of the argument lol - but I feel like I opened a can of worms that I really wanna close, cause this just seems like the kinda thing that could go on forever
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Post by Taste It On My Tongue on Jun 9, 2009 2:05:27 GMT -5
Didn't "Umbrella" "Hate That I Love You" "Don't Stop the Music" "Take a Bow" and "Disturbia" all go top ten on CHR/Rhythmic?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 8:16:38 GMT -5
Didn't "Umbrella" "Hate That I Love You" "Don't Stop the Music" "Take a Bow" and "Disturbia" all go top ten on CHR/Rhythmic? Umbrella: #3 Hate That I Love You: #9 Don't Stop The Music: #6 Take A Bow: #7 Disturbia: #8 For the record, here are Mariah's "repressed flops" Rhythmic peaks. Honey: #1 (3 weeks) My All: #8 Heartbreaker: #3 Thank God I Found You: #9 ...and two that have no business even being thrown in that category but were anyway: Don't Forget About Us: #2 Touch My Body: #3 ...and the R&B Airplay peaks of all of the above: Honey: #4 My All: #16 Heartbreaker: #9 Thank God I Found You: #10 Don't Forget About Us: #1 (1 week) Touch My Body: #2 "Don't Forget About Us" spent 5 weeks at #1 in Hot 100 Airplay. I don't know where people are getting this "undeserved" talk from, especially with that one. My question is, what qualifies a single as being "repressed"? Does the song have to hit stores or iTunes before it hits radio? Because otherwise, anything else would qualify as being "repressed" under any objective lens. By that definition, the majority of Hot 100 #1's are "repressed". If holding back the CD singles is the only reason the songs went to #1, how come "My All" and "Thank God I Found You" did not go to #1 on the Hot 100 the week the single was released? "Honey" was a legitimate hit. It went Top 10 CHR/Pop, #4 R&B Airplay, and #1 Rhythmic. It sold enough to go Platinum, and spent 3 weeks at #1 on the Hot 100. That's not some flash in the pan #1. "My All" was a Top 20 R&B Airplay, Adult Contemporary, and CHR/Pop hit. It was also a Top 10 Rhythmic hit. The single also featured "Breakdown" which was a Top 10 Urban radio hit. I'm sure someone will call that "cheating," but then let's make sure we also accuse artists like Madonna, 2Pac, and Toni Braxton of cheating as well for including other hits on their singles just to make it fair. "Heartbreaker" was another legitimate hit. It may not have even gone Top 20 CHR/Pop, but it went Top 10 R&B Airplay and to #3 Rhythmic. The debut sales week for that single was one of the biggest of all time back in 1999 when it was released. Sony quickly discontinued the single which lead to a quick decline in sales points, but Billboard's Chart Beat noted that the week it fell out of #1 and got replaced by Santana's "Smooth" was one of the closest chart weeks ever. If it had not been discontinued, it very likely would have spent a third week at #1. Again, not a flash in the pan. "Thank God I Found You" was another Top 10 hit at both Urban and Rhythmic. Like I said with that one, it didn't even hit #1 the week the single was released. It hit #1 later. So any talk of "repression" getting her that 1 week at #1 with this one is simply uninformed. Any talk of "Don't Forget About Us" or "Touch My Body" not "deserving" #1 are so ridiculous, I'm not even going to explain those. Where is all the talk of Eminem "pulling one over" on the Hot 100 with "Crack A Bottle"? That song has a worse Hot 100 Airplay peak than anything Mariah's ever taken to #1. Did artists like Sisqo and Usher "pull one over" on the Hot 100 because they took songs to #1 that had minimal CHR/Pop airplay with "Incomplete" and "Nice N Slow"? This thread is filled with misinformation. It seems like people will do anything they can to discredit her Hot 100 #1's. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if she didn't have so many #1's, almost all of which were major airplay hits. People need to understand, having the most Hot 100 #1's does not mean you have the greatest songs of all time. It does not mean you have the most popular songs of all time. It does not mean you have the most memorable songs of all time. If you went out on the street, I doubt people could name you all 17 of Elvis' #1's or all 20 of The Beatles' #1's, something people accuse people of not being able to do for Mariah. It simply means, by Billboard's chart criteria, for a particular week or however many weeks a song is #1, that song has the highest point total. End of discussion. Any talk about some of her #1's not maintaining longevity and therefore not being deserving of taking the top spot is ridiculous because I could literally name off hundreds of Hot 100 #1's that have not stood the test of time at radio.
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Glove Slap
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Post by Glove Slap on Jun 9, 2009 8:27:33 GMT -5
^^so much WIN in that post.
Wasn't Umbrella "repressed" as well for like two months? Didn't they wait until Hips Don't Lie was actually #1 on the Hot 100 Airplay chart before they released it? Why isn't anyone talking about that?
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seanblain
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Post by seanblain on Jun 9, 2009 8:43:11 GMT -5
This thread is filled with misinformation. It seems like people will do anything they can to discredit her Hot 100 #1's. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if she didn't have so many #1's, almost all of which were major airplay hits. People need to understand, having the most Hot 100 #1's does not mean you have the greatest songs of all time. It does not mean you have the most popular songs of all time. It does not mean you have the most memorable songs of all time. If you went out on the street, I doubt people could name you all 17 of Elvis' #1's or all 20 of The Beatles' #1's, something people accuse people of not being able to do for Mariah. It simply means, by Billboard's chart criteria, for a particular week or however many weeks a song is #1, that song has the highest point total. End of discussion. Any talk about some of her #1's not maintaining longevity and therefore not being deserving of taking the top spot is ridiculous because I could literally name off hundreds of Hot 100 #1's that have not stood the test of time at radio. dizam....Great post. After that this thread can be officially closed...lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 8:45:43 GMT -5
Somewhere, John's head just exploded.
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weaver
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Post by weaver on Jun 9, 2009 9:42:56 GMT -5
Thank you Black Summer.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 15:31:40 GMT -5
Where is all the talk of Eminem "pulling one over" on the Hot 100 with "Crack A Bottle"? That song has a worse Hot 100 Airplay peak than anything Mariah's ever taken to #1. Yeah IMO Crack A Bottle (in my opinion) wasn't a big hit either, even though it hit #1 on Hot 100 (although it was a big hit for that one week) - same with Nice & Slow, not b/c its CHR airplay was low, but because its Hot 100 Airplay was low - and then same with My All and Thank God I Found You (because they had low Hot 100 Airplay peaks - not sure about Honey, and what else was competing with it at the time) Back in the 90s CD/cassette singles still had to be "shipped out" (unlike downloads), so "repressing singles" didn't mean your song would hit #1 the first week it was out...but it meant you were holding off single availability until your airplay was gonna peak
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 15:39:42 GMT -5
People need to understand, having the most Hot 100 #1's does not mean you have the greatest songs of all time. It does not mean you have the most popular songs of all time. It does not mean you have the most memorable songs of all time. It simply means, by Billboard's chart criteria, for a particular week or however many weeks a song is #1, that song has the highest point total. End of discussion. Any talk about some of her #1's not maintaining longevity and therefore not being deserving of taking the top spot is ridiculous because I could literally name off hundreds of Hot 100 #1's that have not stood the test of time at radio. Yeah completely agree with that entire post...IMO problem is a lot of people don't understand that, and count #1s on the Hot 100 (instead of looking at entire chart runs), goin on about how whoever has the most #1s is the most popular - and Billboard and the media perpetutate that in my opinion in awards shows, articles, etc. - that's kinda what I was tryin to get at BTW lol at John's head exploding
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 15:44:50 GMT -5
Where is all the talk of Eminem "pulling one over" on the Hot 100 with "Crack A Bottle"? That song has a worse Hot 100 Airplay peak than anything Mariah's ever taken to #1. Yeah IMO Crack A Bottle (in my opinion) wasn't a big hit either, even though it hit #1 on Hot 100 (although it was a big hit for that one week) - same with Nice & Slow, not b/c its CHR airplay was low, but because its Hot 100 Airplay was low - same with those late 90s Mariah hits that peaked in the teens for Hot 100 Airplay CD/cassette singles weren't always shipped out everywhere all at once, so songs like TGIFY, My All, etc., wouldn't have automatically peaked at #1 their first week The only reason those late 90's R&B hits peaked so low on Hot 100 airplay is because Billboard did not even factor Urban airplay into the Hot 100. "Nice N Slow" broke the Urban audience impressions record back in 1998, yet it had an incredibly low Hot 100 airplay peak because Billboard, for whatever reason, felt that Urban airplay did not deserve to be factored in with the other formats. The second part of your statement really has nothing to back that up or prove one way or the other that that's what happened in any individual scenario, so that's a moot point. We can't say that songs like "My All" and "Thank God I Found You" were somewhat repressed and then eventually had enough copies in stores in one week to go to #1 and that was some kind of delayed repression or whatever... that's grasping at straws.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 15:49:00 GMT -5
Yeah IMO Crack A Bottle (in my opinion) wasn't a big hit either, even though it hit #1 on Hot 100 (although it was a big hit for that one week) - same with Nice & Slow, not b/c its CHR airplay was low, but because its Hot 100 Airplay was low - same with those late 90s Mariah hits that peaked in the teens for Hot 100 Airplay CD/cassette singles weren't always shipped out everywhere all at once, so songs like TGIFY, My All, etc., wouldn't have automatically peaked at #1 their first week The only reason those late 90's R&B hits peaked so low on Hot 100 airplay is because Billboard did not even factor Urban airplay into the Hot 100. "Nice N Slow" broke the Urban audience impressions record back in 1998, yet it had an incredibly low Hot 100 airplay peak because Billboard, for whatever reason, felt that Urban airplay did not deserve to be factored in with the other formats. The second part of your statement really has nothing to back that up or prove one way or the other that that's what happened in any individual scenario, so that's a moot point. We can't say that songs like "My All" and "Thank God I Found You" were somewhat repressed and then eventually had enough copies in stores in one week to go to #1 and that was some kind of repression or whatever... that's grasping at straws. (Went back and edited post) In the 90s it was impossible to ship CD/cassette singles everywhere at once...point is IMO, taking a couple weeks to hit #1 was natural when singles were repressed
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 15:52:45 GMT -5
The only reason those late 90's R&B hits peaked so low on Hot 100 airplay is because Billboard did not even factor Urban airplay into the Hot 100. "Nice N Slow" broke the Urban audience impressions record back in 1998, yet it had an incredibly low Hot 100 airplay peak because Billboard, for whatever reason, felt that Urban airplay did not deserve to be factored in with the other formats. The second part of your statement really has nothing to back that up or prove one way or the other that that's what happened in any individual scenario, so that's a moot point. We can't say that songs like "My All" and "Thank God I Found You" were somewhat repressed and then eventually had enough copies in stores in one week to go to #1 and that was some kind of repression or whatever... that's grasping at straws. (Went back and edited post) In the 90s it was impossible to ship CD/cassette singles everywhere at once...point is IMO, taking a couple weeks to hit #1 was natural when singles were repressed I'm still waiting to hear what a "repressed" single is. How long must a record label wait before they're considered to be "repressing" their singles? Especially in the 90's when CD singles had to be released, they were not coming out in advance of the song being released to radio for the most part, especially with any major radio artist. Unless a song is being released as a single that is able to be purchased in advance of the radio release, it is being "repressed". As far as a single not being shipped everywhere at once, that only furthers my point. The fact of the matter is that those songs didn't have some huge week of sales that propelled them to #1 and then fell off. They held up strongly enough for multiple weeks that it actually propelled the song to #1 after the initial sales week was factored in. That completely throws any talk of repression propelling those songs to #1 when the single was finally released out the window. If a song was able to get to #1 with a single taking a few weeks to really hit all the stores, then plenty of people in different areas had other opportunities to purchase the single. If it took 2-3 weeks for that song to accumulate enough sales to go to #1, I don't see how that can even be considered to be a #1 that came completely out of repressing a single. It just doesn't make sense.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 15:57:48 GMT -5
(Went back and edited post) In the 90s it was impossible to ship CD/cassette singles everywhere at once...point is IMO, taking a couple weeks to hit #1 was natural when singles were repressed I'm still waiting to hear what a "repressed" single is. A single that's availability is held off by the record label so that sales peak coincides with airplay peak...just because it takes CD/cassette sales a few weeks to peak doesn't mean the single hasn't been repressed
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 16:05:50 GMT -5
Yeah IMO Crack A Bottle (in my opinion) wasn't a big hit either, even though it hit #1 on Hot 100 (although it was a big hit for that one week) - same with Nice & Slow, not b/c its CHR airplay was low, but because its Hot 100 Airplay was low - same with those late 90s Mariah hits that peaked in the teens for Hot 100 Airplay CD/cassette singles weren't always shipped out everywhere all at once, so songs like TGIFY, My All, etc., wouldn't have automatically peaked at #1 their first week The only reason those late 90's R&B hits peaked so low on Hot 100 airplay is because Billboard did not even factor Urban airplay into the Hot 100. "Nice N Slow" broke the Urban audience impressions record back in 1998, yet it had an incredibly low Hot 100 airplay peak because Billboard, for whatever reason, felt that Urban airplay did not deserve to be factored in with the other formats. Billboard also didn't count Alternative, Rock, Active, Triple A, AC, and Country, so other tracks were "held back" just as much as R&B tracks - H100 Airplay peak wouldn't have necessarily been any higher
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 16:11:18 GMT -5
I'm still waiting to hear what a "repressed" single is. A single that's availability is held off by the record label so that sales peak coincides with airplay peak...just because it takes CD/cassette sales a few weeks to peak doesn't mean the single hasn't been repressed So this is some exact science where a song let's say is at #5 in Airplay and the label thinks it's about to peak, and they decide to release the single? Because I think if the Black Eyed Peas or Flo Rida or somebody releases their single after a few weeks when their song is #15 and exploding, that's the same thing. If a single is Top 20 in airplay and goes on to peak at #1 down the road, but that's not repressing a single, but Mariah releases a single when her single peaks in the Top 20 but outside the Top 10, I'm not seeing how she's more guilty of anything. Like 2m was saying, there has to be demand in the first place. If a song's single is released when it's #1 in airplay, and it goes #1 on the Hot 100, what's the complaint? People seem to have a problem if a song goes to #1 on the Hot 100 and it's not a major airplay hit, but then they have an equal problem when a song like "Don't Forget About Us" is in the top three of airplay before it goes on to spend over a month at #1 airplay, gets released and goes to #1 on the Hot 100 and is a legitimate hit. It seems like it's more of a problem if it's a Mariah single because I don't see these kind of comments or people as up in arms over any other artists doing this. There were tons of artists in the 90's releasing their singles as their airplay was near its peak. There are tons of artists now releasing their singles to iTunes as their airplay is near its peak. In fact, some labels do that with pretty much all their lead singles. So let's look at the Mariah "flops" (the words of others here, not mine) that went to #1 on the Hot 100. By the opinions of people here, those songs did not do well enough in airplay that it would have made sense to go to #1. By your account, those songs did not have all of their singles released to all the stores simultaneously. So if a song is "repressed" until it's only #15 in Hot 100 airplay, and it's not even sent to all the stores simultaneously, and yet it still manages major sales that hold up long enough for that song to actually hit #1 two or three weeks down the road, that's pretty impressive to me. It certainly isn't the situation that people are painting it out to be in which a single is held back until its peak, immediately rockets to #1 from the lower depths of the chart and has a massive sales percentage decrease in its second week.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 16:12:16 GMT -5
The only reason those late 90's R&B hits peaked so low on Hot 100 airplay is because Billboard did not even factor Urban airplay into the Hot 100. "Nice N Slow" broke the Urban audience impressions record back in 1998, yet it had an incredibly low Hot 100 airplay peak because Billboard, for whatever reason, felt that Urban airplay did not deserve to be factored in with the other formats. Billboard also didn't count Alternative, Rock, Active, Triple A, AC, and Country, so other tracks were "held back" just as much as R&B tracks - H100 Airplay peak wouldn't have necessarily been any higher Urban radio obviously had more audience than formats like Triple A and the rock formats, so yes, they would have been higher.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 16:24:53 GMT -5
Billboard also didn't count Alternative, Rock, Active, Triple A, AC, and Country, so other tracks were "held back" just as much as R&B tracks - H100 Airplay peak wouldn't have necessarily been any higher Urban radio obviously had more audience than formats like Triple A and the rock formats, so yes, they would have been higher. Tracks that charted on all four rock formats (at the same time...which was pretty common) would've had similar audience "discrepancy" as tracks that charted on Urban Urban tracks might have gotten a bit more of a boost, but not enough to change Hot 100 airplay peak from #15 to Top 5
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 16:30:23 GMT -5
A single that's availability is held off by the record label so that sales peak coincides with airplay peak...just because it takes CD/cassette sales a few weeks to peak doesn't mean the single hasn't been repressed So this is some exact science where a song let's say is at #5 in Airplay and the label thinks it's about to peak, and they decide to release the single? Don't remember saying this was an exact science But yes, if label thinks airplay is going to peak at a certain time, and waits to release the single to coincide with airplay peak, that's download repression (no matter who does it) A lot of what you said in that post has already been discussed (both sides of the issue) - if Thank God I Found You had low airplay, and rose to #1 through repressed singles sales, that's impressive for that one week it rose to #1 - if you look up the song's entire Hot 100 chart run, it was much shorter than most songs that peak at #3 -5, so its "success" was IMO not impressive overall - and you've already discussed that simply hitting #1 on the Hot 100 doesn't constitute that a song was extremely popular in the long run anyway (which I agree with)
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weaver
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Post by weaver on Jun 9, 2009 16:49:53 GMT -5
Can we please at least agree on the fact that this is not a "Mariah" thing but a label strategy? Because Mariah has had a lot of success employing this strategy does not mean she's "to blame" for the phenomenon.
And, of course if a song has a quick burn, vs. a slow rise and fall, there is a difference there. There are songs that peak at like #12 that you will see high on the year end charts because they spent a lot of time in the 11-15 range, for example, so they amassed a lot of cumulative chart points. I think that's rather irrelevant to the discussion we're having here, but I saw that something along that line was brought up.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 16:57:09 GMT -5
Can we please at least agree on the fact that this is not a "Mariah" thing but a label strategy? Yeah completely - wish I could relabel the thread to "Is Download Repression Fair?"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 16:58:25 GMT -5
You can retitle threads. You just edit your first post. lol
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Jun 9, 2009 19:12:25 GMT -5
You can retitle threads. You just edit your first post. lol Lol had no idea...
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