2009 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Discussion

[HolidayGuy]

^Yes, but, more importantly, t has to be a creative success- it's not just the disappointing commercial performance (that's not what the HOF really considers, anyhow). Janet had a very solid four-album streak form Control-The Velvet Rope (granted, Control and RN were more highly regarded, but it was a good four-album flow). Aftr that, things got a little iffy. On the negative side, you'll have those who think her ex-husband played a large role in her music (janet said he often didn't take credit), and that Jam and Lewis were as responsible for Janet as Janet herself was (just playing devil's advocate here).

Donna Summer was a nomine in 2007 (for 2008), but didn't make the cut- she's deserving, without a doubt.

[Tea-why]

^ I hear you. I meant a critical success as well because her last few haven't had the best reviews either (along with the best sales). And artistry is obviously more important than record sales.

I guess only time and the work itself will tell.

[divalasvegas82]

I do hope Whitney gets in. Like someone already pointed out, she did set the standard for future r&b/pop singers, including Mariah. But given how prejudice Jann what's-his-face (editor of "Rolling Stone" magazine") seems to be aganist adult contemporary acts, which Whitney was for the most part of her career, I wouldn't be suprised if she is overlooked.

[HolidayGuy]

^But she was pop/R&B/AC- it's not like she was justan AC act.

Clive Davis himself is a Hallf of Fame inductee, so he could get that committee to consider ha. However, Clive's asdociation with Barry Manilow sure hasn't helped him (Whitney is more deserving than Manilow, even though he has written some of the catchiest jingles- his music is way too MOR and light for serious consideration; he hasn't been considered yet)

[divalasvegas82]

I know Janet released her first album in '82, which would already make her eligible, but I think to the public, music industry, and even Janet herself since her last tour was the first time she performed any pre-86 material, "Control" is considered her first album. By using that logic, Janet wouldn't be eligible until three more years. I think she has a shot if her next album is embraced by the public and critics.

[divalasvegas82]

HG, I never meant to imply Whitney was ONLY an AC act, but that was her main base for many years. You do make a good point about Clive. Since he's already been inducted, he might have some influence over Whitney's nomination. We'll see.

[PDC1987]

Sept 16, 2009 18:16:18 GMT -5 divalasvegas82 said:

I know Janet released her first album in '82, which would already make her eligible, but I think to the public, music industry, and even Janet herself since her last tour was the first time she performed any pre-86 material, "Control" is considered her first album. By using that logic, Janet wouldn't be eligible until three more years. I think she has a shot if her next album is embraced by the public and critics.

Janet Jackson was her first album. She sang the songs, her face was on the cover, her name was on the cover, and it was credited to her on the charts.

[divalasvegas82]

In response to the people who have said that Hall & Oates and Pat Benatar deserve to be inducted, I totally agree. But IMO, the HOF is not always about who is deserving or who has been influential. I dare anyone to say that KISS hasn't been an influential glam-metal band, even if they despise their music, but since Jann hates them, they will NEVER get in.

[divalasvegas82]

pdc, I never said her debut album didn't count. What I'm saying is that it's been largely forgotten about by pretty much everyone--even Janet. When considering her for an induction, I think the HOF would be much more inclined to look at her material starting from "Control," which could explain why she hasn't been a serious contender yet. "Control" was released in 1986--making her three years shy of the necessary 25 years after an artist first single or album. Even though "Control" was actually her third album, it was her breakthrough and when she rose to prominence in the music world.

[PDC1987]

Sept 16, 2009 18:34:05 GMT -5 divalasvegas82 said:

pdc, I never said her debut album didn't count. What I'm saying is that it's been largely forgotten about by pretty much everyone--even Janet. When considering her for an induction, I think the HOF would be much more inclined to look at her material starting from "Control," which could explain why she hasn't been a serious contender yet. "Control" was released in 1986--making her three years shy of the necessary 25 years after an artist first single or album. Even though "Control" was actually her third album, it was her breakthrough and when she rose to prominence in the music world.

It isn't arbitrary. An act is eligible 25 years after the release of their first record, end.

When the "breakthrough" album was released (i.e. whether or not it was their debut) is irrelevant. An act becomes literally eligible and they look at the whole catalog.

I honestly think Janet would be a more serious contender if it weren't for the fact that her ex husband apparently ghost wrote her hits for her for many years, with her taking the credit. That kind of stuff is frowned upon.

[divalasvegas82]

pdc, it's been rumored by a few that her ex ghost wrote her material, but that's just Internet chatter. And I seriously doubt that rumor whether it is true or not has even been weighed by critics or the HOF. I know Rene was heavily involved in shaping Janet's image (i.e. coming up with the militaristic theme for "Rhythm Nation"), but I dont' believe for a second that he was writing the bulk of Janet's material. I remember watching Janet's "E! True Hollywood Story," and when then they discussed Rene suing Janet for unpaid royalities, Jimmy Jam said he never remembered Rene coming into the studio--writing or creating anything.

[MikeCheck12]

Sept 16, 2009 18:53:56 GMT -5 divalasvegas82 said:

pdc, it's been rumored by a few that her ex ghost wrote her material, but that's just Internet chatter. And I seriously doubt that rumor whether it is true or not has even been weighed by critics or the HOF. I know Rene was heavily involved in shaping Janet's image (i.e. coming up with the militaristic theme for "Rhythm Nation"), but I dont' believe for a second that he was writing the bulk of Janet's material. I remember watching Janet's "E! True Hollywood Story," and when then they discussed Rene suing Janet for unpaid royalities, Jimmy Jam said he never remembered Rene coming into the studio--writing or creating anything.

Bingo!

[HolidayGuy]

^Janet did say at one point though that Rene didn't take credit for things he did (I'm guessing she meant songwriting- what else would constitute a credit?) Given the fallout, I wouldn't think anyone involved would give Rene credit at that point. Regardless, though, she should be considered.

Beastie Boys became eligible in 2007, and there was some talk that because its breakthrough wasn't until 1986, that it may not get in right away (Beastie was nominated in its first year of eligibility, though).

Now, the HOF committee probably would give more credence to Beastie than it would Janet, just using that as an example.

[Positive Tension]

If Madonna made the Hall of Fame, I think Janet should be able to as well. Janet's first few albums received tons of acclaim.

[HolidayGuy]

^Her first few albums would be Janet Jackson, Dream Street and Control.

Control and Rhythm Nation received some acclaim- but, she hasn't received as much as Madonna, nor is she as highly regarded in terms of music history (she's been influential, but Madonna was a no-brainer, whereas Janet isn't as much). But, again, she should be considered- but she needs to remind the HOF people why she's worthy- her last several albums haven't benefited her in that regard.

[d.t.m]

RRHOF may feel it's time to honor another Jackson(they honored MJ twice) and so this does put Janet in a nice position. She and Donna Summer are overdue for induction. Summer gets shafted because while she was of the greatest women in music, the genre she's mostly identified with(Disco), is pop's most slighted sub-genre.

Still, without Disco & Donna(def. 'Bad Girls') there would have arguably been no Madonna Dance/POP breakthrough in the early 80's.

With that said, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Whitney wound up coming ahead of both women this year. She's still highly respected in the music industry(the Grammys will show proof of this).

[Tanisha Thomas.]

Sept 19, 2009 18:03:16 GMT -5 HolidayGuy said:

^Her first few albums would be Janet Jackson, Dream Street and Control.

Control and Rhythm Nation received some acclaim- but, she hasn't received as much as Madonna, nor is she as highly regarded in terms of music history (she's been influential, but Madonna was a no-brainer, whereas Janet isn't as much). But, again, she should be considered- but she needs to remind the HOF people why she's worthy- her last several albums haven't benefited her in that regard.

Some acclaim? Control and Rhythm Nation were highly acclaimed albums. Both were pretty iconic in their own right. Control was one of the first albums to put New Jack Swing, a highly acclaimed R&B/Pop sub-genre, on the map. Rhythm Nation just continued Janet's acclaim. Let's not forget about janet. and Velvet Rope. The reason why Janet is being disregarded now is because of her downfall this decade, which isn't logical at all.

[d.t.m]

^Yeah, and Control was actually an Album of the Year nominee at the Grammys--pretty big news at the time and proved Janet was a new Jackson to be reckoned with.

[Tanisha Thomas.]

Sept 19, 2009 19:08:43 GMT -5 d.t.m said:

^Yeah, and Control was actually an Album of the Year nominee at the Grammys--pretty big news at the time and proved Janet was a new Jackson to be reckoned with.

Yes, that was pretty huge for Janet at that time.

Also, Velvet Rope and Rhythm Nation 1814 ranked on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Album of All Time at #256 and #275 respectively. (I don't understand why Control wasn't ranked on the list considering it had more acclaim than the other two that ranked on the list.)

[musicjunky318]

First of all, we gotta set some things straight. If Eric Clapton can be inducted three times there's no reason why Paul McCartney (with the Wings) and Michael Jackson (with the Jacksons) can't be let in a third time.

Where is Dionne Warwick and Barbra Streisand? I see some of you guys above are talking about Whitney, there's no reason why she should be let in before her cousin, Ms. Warwick. They set a standard way before Whitney even graduated from high school.

I also don't see why Diana Ross & Tina Turner aren't inducted for their solo work.

[HolidayGuy]

The Grammys are not the greatest representation of acclaim (check out some non-critical hits that were nominees and even winners in the album category- i.e. Celine Dion, Backstreet Boys, to name two)- but, aside from that, Control is Janet's most acclaimed album (see acclaimedmusic.net). In terms of year-end lists, all-time lists, ratings guides, etc., janet. and The Velvet Rope lacked in comparison to Control and Rhythm Nation.
musicj- Paul McCartney is inducted as a solo act (that's supposed to represent his work with Wings, I believe). How would MJ be inducted a 3rd time? He's in asa solo act and with the Jacksons.

I don't see Diana Ross being considered for her solo work- after all, look how long she's been eligible; she hasn't been considered yet. Barbra Streisand shows that one of the greatest voices and commercial success are not what the HOF considers.

Dionne Warwick, I'm kinda surprised she hasn't been considered. She was the voice behind the Bacharach songbook. But she herself was mildly acclaimed (a couple of singles- especially "Walk on By").

Tina Turner? She's a great performer, but I think the HOF may look at her material (overall) as not being HOF-worthy.

[musicjunky318]

Sept 19, 2009 20:29:36 GMT -5 HolidayGuy said:

The Grammys are not the greatest representation of acclaim (check out some non-critical hits that were nominees and even winners in the album category- i.e. Celine Dion, Backstreet Boys, to name two)- but, aside from that, Control is Janet's most acclaimed album (see acclaimedmusic.net). In terms of year-end lists, all-time lists, ratings guides, etc., janet. and The Velvet Rope lacked in comparison to Control and Rhythm Nation.
musicj- Paul McCartney is inducted as a solo act (that's supposed to represent his work with Wings, I believe). How would MJ be inducted a 3rd time? He's in asa solo act and with the Jacksons.

I don't see Diana Ross being considered for her solo work- after all, look how long she's been eligible; she hasn't been considered yet. Barbra Streisand shows that one of the greatest voices and commercial success are not what the HOF considers.

Dionne Warwick, I'm kinda surprised she hasn't been considered. She was the voice behind the Bacharach songbook. But she herself was mildly acclaimed (a couple of singles- especially "Walk on By").

Tina Turner? She's a great performer, but I think the HOF may look at her material (overall) as not being HOF-worthy.

Oh so you're saying The Hall of Fame apparently treats McCartney's time with the Wings as part of his solo induction? That I don't understand. It basically refutes the whole purpose of having the individual works of an artists recognized.

In respect to MJ, he's inducted as part of the Jackson 5 and as a solo artist. The Jacksons is a completely different band then the Jackson 5 which was formed after Jermaine decided to stay with Motown and was replaced with their youngest brother Randy. They signed to CBS Records before leaving and signing to Epic Records. The Hall of Fame isn't talking about any of that history. They recognize everything up until 1976.

[Mr. Wonder]

Sept 19, 2009 18:59:41 GMT -5 d.t.m said:

RRHOF may feel it's time to honor another Jackson(they honored MJ twice) and so this does put Janet in a nice position. She and Donna Summer are overdue for induction. Summer gets shafted because while she was of the greatest women in music, the genre she's mostly identified with(Disco), is pop's most slighted sub-genre.

Still, without Disco & Donna(def. 'Bad Girls') there would have arguably been no Madonna Dance/POP breakthrough in the early 80's.

With that said, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Whitney wound up coming ahead of both women this year. She's still highly respected in the music industry(the Grammys will show proof of this).

Don't forget about "Love To Love You Baby's" impact on disco, and how "I Feel Love" changed music forever, literally. ;)

[d.t.m]

^Yes! I Feel Love, put synthesizers on the map, and was lauded as the sound of the future. Brilliant! 'Love to Love' is one of the greatest novelty songs of the past century.

[Mr. Wonder]

"Love To Love" also set the set the standard for disco and long for songs.

Part 1: song
Part 2: instrumentation
Part 3: song/chorus with finish

That was the standard for all disco songs.

[d.t.m]

Yes, that was Neil Bogart, then President of Casablanca's, idea that he formulated when he found the original version was great to make love to lol. I heard Donna was pregnant at the time and laid on the floor as she recorded the highly controversial simulated orgasms. Some radio stations refused to play the song because of its raunchiness(this is what kept it out of the top spot on BB 100, just as what happened to George Michael's I Want Your Sex years later), but it made Donna a music sensation. Does she still even perform this live?

I adore her epic Try Me, I Know We Can Make It as well. She made some great music, actually.

[HolidayGuy]

I'm sure the HOF regards the Jacksons in the same vein as the Jackson 5, since it was only a differcence of 1 member- it's like when someone replaces any membr of a group; it's not going to be treated as a different group. The slightest of name changes won't mean too much, either. :)

I have to think that Paul McCartney was inducted based on all of his post-Beatles output- the material without Wings, I don't think, would be enugh, even though he is a Beatle.

Hopefully Donna Summer again will make it as a nominee this year, and, even better, an inductee. I believe she did perform "Love to Love You Baby" during her recent concerts.

[Mr. Wonder]

Sept 20, 2009 3:25:38 GMT -5 d.t.m said:

Yes, that was Neil Bogart, then President of Casablanca's, idea that he formulated when he found the original version was great to make love to lol. I heard Donna was pregnant at the time and laid on the floor as she recorded the highly controversial simulated orgasms. Some radio stations refused to play the song because of its raunchiness(this is what kept it out of the top spot on BB 100, just as what happened to George Michael's I Want Your Sex years later), but it made Donna a music sensation. Does she still even perform this live?

I adore her epic Try Me, I Know We Can Make It as well. She made some great music, actually.

I read her book and I can't remember if she was pregnant, but she said for the orgasms, they lit come candles in the studio and she went at it lol. And I think Giorgio is the one who wanted to extend the song to 17mins.

And @ stations refusing to play it. But it did help to break a lot of doors for Madonna and later Janet.

[HolidayGuy]

The 12 nominees are out.

Donna Summer best be inducted this year- long time coming.

Janet Jackson was passed over again this year (this was her third year of eligiblity)- though I'm not surprised. if she can make a good, quality record next time out (the last handful were not up to par with her best output), the HOF may feel more compelled to consider her.

Surprised Beastie Boys didn't make it onto the ballot- and the list of nominees was expanded to 12 this year (up from 9).

Just 5 will be inducted at next year's ceremony.

Darlene Love
Current Induction Chances: 29%

Donna Summer
Current Induction Chances: 71%

Genesis
Current Induction Chances: 62%

Jimmy Cliff
Current Induction Chances: 48%

KISS
Current Induction Chances: 59%

Laura Nyro
Current Induction Chances: 49%

LL Cool J
Current Induction Chances: 49%

Red Hot Chili Peppers
Current Induction Chances: 75%

The Chantels
Current Induction Chances: 26%

The Hollies
Current Induction Chances: 44%

The Stooges
Current Induction Chances: 70%

ABBA
Current Induction Chances: 56%

[galvanize]

Really hope ABBA & Donna Summer make it in this year - so well deserved for both (long overdue for ABBA).