2009 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Discussion

[HolidayGuy]

Abba has been eligible since 1993- I think in recent years, appreciation for the group has grown. Would be cool.

Donna has been eligible since 1999- she's been considered before, and she definitely deserivs to be in the HOF.

Kiss may have been viewed as gimmicky- I loved the band when I was like 5 (this was 1980). Even dressed as Ace Frehley for Halloween that year. :) And I had Love Gun on vinyl. Critic Dave Marsh has been very vocal about leaving them off the ballot for years now.

[Tea-why]

I'm surprised Dolly Parton isn't in the HOF yet.

[WotUNeed]

Wow! They have some really great nominees on the ballot this year. In my perfect world, the rankings would end up like this, based on a combination of my objective view of the artists' merit and, to break ties, my subjective liking of them:

1. The Stooges
2. Jimmy Cliff
3. The Hollies, who have been overlooked far too long
4. Genesis, including the Gabriel-fronted incarnation
5. Donna Summer
6. Laura Nyro
7. LL Cool J
8. Darlene Love, although I don't understand how she's been kept out so long
9. Red Hot Chili Peppers, whose chances are best because they could draw a certain demographic to the ceremony that others nominated could not as effectively
10. ABBA
11. KISS ... I would actually tie the above two as somewhat gimmicky nominees, so here's where my tiebreaker comes into effect
12. The Chantels... sorry, I know you've been shut out a long time, but that's because other doo wop artists who needed to be in keep getting in.

I actually wrote a long paper documenting the influence and legacy of The Hollies at one point, so I'd be thrilled if they finally got this recognition. Jimmy Cliff has been shut out so long it's not even funny, so that'd be another one I'd absolutely love. Other nominees are people I enjoy, but those two would help, in my opinion, to truly validate the credibility of RaRHoF.

EDIT: Actually, I've changed my mind and swapped Summer and Nyro. I think either would be very deserving, but I do think this should probably be Summer's year. It's just a shame Nyro never gets in. I'm content with these rankings now.

[cartman2002]

I hope Genesis get into the Hall Of Fame next year. They were my favorite rock group growing up.

[HolidayGuy]

Street Date- while Dolly Parton isn't in the Rock Hall, she is in the Country Music Hall of Fame (which has been around a lot longer than the Rock Hall). Granted, some country acts are in both (i.e. Johnny Cash, Hank WIlliams), but those are few and far between. Patsy Cline also is in the Country Hall of Fame, but has not been inducted into the Rock Hall.

[barbush]

Donna deserves to be there. They need to stop passing her by.

[areyoureadytojump]

The success of the movie Mamma Mia surely helped them this year.

[HolidayGuy]

^It definitely helped fuel interest again, put Abba back into the spotlight- but, the Hall of Fame does not look at commercial success (even if it's a movie). The movie wasn't exactly a critixal hit, but it may have served as a reinder of the magic of the music.

[areyoureadytojump]

^But, it made a sh*tload of $! $147 million.

[WotUNeed]

Sept 23, 2009 17:05:50 GMT -5 HolidayGuy said:

^It definitely helped fuel interest again, put Abba back into the spotlight- but, the Hall of Fame does not look at commercial success (even if it's a movie). The movie wasn't exactly a critixal hit, but it may have served as a reinder of the magic of the music.

Again, while commercial success isn't supposed to be an influencing factor, we all know it plays some part. I agree that the success of "Mamma Mia" goes a long way in explaining ABBA's appearance on the ballot this year.

[HolidayGuy]

^If it did, bands like Journey would be in. :) Of course, some acts who are inducted just so happened to enjoy high levels of commercial success, but many didn't.

Mamma Mia had been a long-running and successful musial before it became a movie, remember. Like said, the movie could have resulted in some on the comittee taking another look/listen to Abba, and truly seeing the magic that was there.

[WotUNeed]

Sept 23, 2009 17:36:13 GMT -5 HolidayGuy said:

^If it did, bands like Journey would be in. :)

Not so. My argument isn't that it's the main determining factor, but rather that it plays more of a part than the committee would choose to admit. They don't admit people simply because they're commercially successful, but, at the same time, commercial success has some influence.

[HolidayGuy]

^I get where you're coming from. There are some acts who really haven't produced anything remaarkable, musically, and who have had a safe, mainstream career- and were very successful at it. Those acts, I think, will have a tough time getting in (or being considered, in general). Bon Jovi comes to mind among recent eligibles- the band has been highly successful and can sell tickets with the best of them, but nothing that really stands out there.

If an act has managed to attain both high levels of both critical and commercial success, that puts them in a better position.

[blazingeagles]

Chili Peppers, Stooges and Kiss should all be in. No matter what you think these are some of the 3 most influencal bands of all time. It's called the ROCK hall of fame so the fact that ABBA or LL Cool J are nominated makes me sick. It would just be better if they would rename it and give Real rock n roll a hall of fame. One where Stevie Ray Vaughn and Tom Waits would actually have a shot.

[d.t.m]

Kind of surprised no mention of Janet again and most importantly Whitney, but I swear Donna better get in.

[barbush]

It's called the ROCK hall of fame so the fact that ABBA or LL Cool J are nominated makes me sick.

They've said many times that it's a hall of fame for popular music of the rock and roll era, not just straight-up rock. They've already inducted other pop and rap acts (like Madonna and Run DMC), so why not LL Cool J or ABBA?

[HolidayGuy]

Exactly- some don't grasp that "rock and roll" is just an umbreall categorization, and that it's always encompassed more than just straight-up rock.

d.t.m., why are you surprised about Janet? Did you not check out my comments about why she's going to have some trouble (at least in the immediate time and future)? :)

I think this may be Donna's time.

[PDC1987]

Sept 23, 2009 17:05:50 GMT -5 HolidayGuy said:

^It definitely helped fuel interest again, put Abba back into the spotlight- but, the Hall of Fame does not look at commercial success (even if it's a movie). The movie wasn't exactly a critixal hit, but it may have served as a reinder of the magic of the music.

Forget the actual box office grosses, the success of the film showed their impact and how well their music holds up. Same goes for the success of the film's soundtrack.

[PDC1987]

Sept 23, 2009 19:51:26 GMT -5 blazingeagles said:

Chili Peppers, Stooges and Kiss should all be in. No matter what you think these are some of the 3 most influencal bands of all time. It's called the ROCK hall of fame so the fact that ABBA or LL Cool J are nominated makes me sick. It would just be better if they would rename it and give Real rock n roll a hall of fame. One where Stevie Ray Vaughn and Tom Waits would actually have a shot.

It's NEVER been for only "rock" acts.

[blazingeagles]

Sept 23, 2009 21:39:13 GMT -5 PDC1987 said:

Sept 23, 2009 19:51:26 GMT -5 blazingeagles said:

Chili Peppers, Stooges and Kiss should all be in. No matter what you think these are some of the 3 most influencal bands of all time. It's called the ROCK hall of fame so the fact that ABBA or LL Cool J are nominated makes me sick. It would just be better if they would rename it and give Real rock n roll a hall of fame. One where Stevie Ray Vaughn and Tom Waits would actually have a shot.

It's NEVER been for only "rock" acts.

I only needed that explained once. People have already made that clear.

[d.t.m]

Sept 23, 2009 21:17:37 GMT -5 HolidayGuy said:

Exactly- some don't grasp that "rock and roll" is just an umbreall categorization, and that it's always encompassed more than just straight-up rock.

d.t.m., why are you surprised about Janet? Did you not check out my comments about why she's going to have some trouble (at least in the immediate time and future)? :)

I think this may be Donna's time.

Well part of me thought with MJ passing the spotlight would shine on the Jacksons again and give Janet a chance to join her brothers. But you're right, she's gonna have to have a successful comeback to even be considered. The last 2 albums have tainted her legacy somewhat.

[HolidayGuy]

^I'd extend that to the last four albums- All For You did pretty well, commercially, but it does not stack up to the four albums that preceded it. Damita Jo is ok, has some moments, but the same. And I can't even go into 20 Y.O. Discipline was a step in theright direction, but not enough.

When is LaToya eligible? (kidding)

[divalasvegas82]

The HOF may consider widespread critical acclaim, but if the voters on the panel don't like an act, they won't get in no matter how much acclaim they have garnered in their careers. Linda Ronstadt, after all, is considered one of the greatest interpreter of song, and she's not in.

But I am glad that KISS finally got a nomination. They should have gotten into the HOF years ago IMO. I also didn't think ABBA would ever get considered either. I'd be shocked out of this world if they actually made it in.

[divalasvegas82]

As far as non-rock acts getting into the HOF, I notice that anytime a pop or rap artist gets in, people always complain. But James Brown, a soul artist, was one of the first inductees, and nobody complains about that. There are also quite a few blues artists in the HOF, but again, no one raises objections. I think the name should just be changed to the "American Music Hall of Fame," so people who can't understand that there are actually talented and influential artists in the world of pop and rap, can be silenced.

[HolidayGuy]

^Definitely so. Some people are so rock-oriented, that they also don't get that rock and roll is about attitude and how one approaches his or her work/comes across as a performer and such, as much as it is about genre.

Linda Ronstadt, surprisingly, though, is not as acclaimed as you'd think. At the Acclaimed Music site, hero nly song to feature is "You're No Good," and Heart Like a Wheel is her only album ranked in the top 1000 (the site hasn't been updated in almost a year, but she doesn't fare all that well in best-of features, album ratings, etc.) But, Brenda Lee doesn't either and she was inducted a few years back (after lengthy eligibility)- but, she was "Little Miss Dynamite," and sometimes having a signature nickname like that gets one far. hehe

Maybe because she made her impression with cover songs as often as she did, she's docked somewhat for that, I don't know.

[starr]

Sept 16, 2009 18:53:56 GMT -5 divalasvegas82 said:

pdc, it's been rumored by a few that her ex ghost wrote her material, but that's just Internet chatter. And I seriously doubt that rumor whether it is true or not has even been weighed by critics or the HOF. I know Rene was heavily involved in shaping Janet's image (i.e. coming up with the militaristic theme for "Rhythm Nation"), but I dont' believe for a second that he was writing the bulk of Janet's material. I remember watching Janet's "E! True Hollywood Story," and when then they discussed Rene suing Janet for unpaid royalities, Jimmy Jam said he never remembered Rene coming into the studio--writing or creating anything.

Janet got the military thing for "Rhythm Nation" from her brother, Michael. Janet got the idea from Michael's "Captain EO" short film. She called Michael and asked if it was okay for her to use that for her "Rhythm Nation" album.

Michael said this himself on his FOX special where he broadcast his private home movies.

[divalasvegas82]

HG, like I said before, I think whether or not an act gets into the HOF is mainly dependent upon if they are liked by Jann Wenner and other members of the panel--most of whom which are associated with "Rolling Stone" Magazine. So if RS doesn't like an act, they won't get into the HOF, which I think is totally unfair because RS is not the only music publication (although they are the oldest in existence). If the HOF were based mainly on acclaim, there is no way a fly-by-night doo wop act like Frankie Lymon & The Teenagers, a one-hit wonder like Percy Sledge, and a gospel/r&b act that are only known for a few songs like the Staple Singers would have been inducted. You can't tell me that any of those acts are more important or acclaimed than Linda, KISS (even though they finally did get a nomination this year), Heart, and others. I just really think it's a shame that so many deserving acts have been past up for induction just because they Wenner and his cronies don't like them.

[divalasvegas82]

Starr, there's no doubt that Janet was very influenced by Michael. But even Jimmy Jam admitted that Rene was heavily involved in the imaging for "Rhythm Nation." He specifically said that Rene came up with the militaristic concept for the title track, decided that the video should be black and white, and so forth. I have no reason not to believe Jam, especially since Rene would go on to direct some of Janet's videos. So I think more than anything, Rene helped shape her image. I never got the whole "he was ghostwriting Janet's songs" argument. If that were true, his name wouldn't be listed all over the "Velvet Rope" songwriting credits. So what exactly is it that he didn't take credit for again?

[WotUNeed]

Sept 25, 2009 9:15:27 GMT -5 divalasvegas82 said:

HG, like I said before, I think whether or not an act gets into the HOF is mainly dependent upon if they are liked by Jann Wenner and other members of the panel--most of whom which are associated with "Rolling Stone" Magazine. So if RS doesn't like an act, they won't get into the HOF, which I think is totally unfair because RS is not the only music publication (although they are the oldest in existence). If the HOF were based mainly on acclaim, there is no way a fly-by-night doo wop act like Frankie Lymon & The Teenagers, a one-hit wonder like Percy Sledge, and a gospel/r&b act that are only known for a few songs like the Staple Singers would have been inducted. You can't tell me that any of those acts are more important or acclaimed than Linda, KISS (even though they finally did get a nomination this year), Heart, and others. I just really think it's a shame that so many deserving acts have been past up for induction just because they Wenner and his cronies don't like them.

While I think Percy Sledge is a questionable inductee, Lymon and The Staple Singers, in my opinion, certainly merit their spots more than an act like KISS.

[divalasvegas82]

Well, I guess you could argue that Lymon was the first black teen idol, but musicially, he didn't really do anything beyond "Why Do Fools Fall In Love?" And I also fail to see the Staple Singers long-term influence in music. They had few nice songs like "I'll Take You There," "Respect Yourself," and "Let's Do It Again" (all of these are in my i-Pod). However, they didn't really withstand the test of time or influence a generation of singers/bands. When soul greats like Otis Redding, Aretha, Sam Cooke, Al Green, and others are mentioned, I never hear any mention of the Staple Singers. Basically, IMO, they were a gospel/r&b act that had a few hits in the 1970s.