Nick
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Post by Nick on Nov 5, 2018 18:39:11 GMT -5
No female artist is getting slammed harder for not being in serious contention than Kate Bush. Pat Benatar says hi.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Nov 5, 2018 19:12:34 GMT -5
^Kate Bush was always more of a critics' darling, but I agree. :)
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 5, 2018 19:56:39 GMT -5
I agree sheโs influenced many females, but how much of that is due to her work with Fleetwood Mac as opposed to her solo work? As in, songs like โGold Dust Womanโ and โLandfslideโ are what get covered, and those are FM songs. Sheโs already in the HoF for that work. Let's not forget Stevie has written all her Fleetwood Mac songs she's sung lead on, with the exception of "Seven Wonders". Also "Dreams" was their only #1 Hot 100 single. No one said she didn't do those things, but again the point is she has already been recognized by the Hall of Fame for those songs. Personally I think it should take more than 2 songs to merit inclusion into the Hall of Fame.
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Nov 5, 2018 20:17:03 GMT -5
^ She has more hits than those, but whatever.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 5, 2018 20:18:59 GMT -5
^ She has more hits than those, but whatever. But regardless a lot of female acts who haven't made it in have more hits than Nicks. Look at Janet who is nominated this year. Look at Mariah Carey. Look at Whitney Houston. Look at Barbra Streisand.
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Nov 5, 2018 20:31:07 GMT -5
^ She has more hits than those, but whatever. But regardless a lot of female acts who haven't made it in have more hits than Nicks. Look at Janet who is nominated this year. Look at Mariah Carey. Look at Whitney Houston. Look at Barbra Streisand. Stevie, Janet and Chaka are the only females nominated so those others don't mean anything for the 2019 inductions. Also, you have to look at how long an artist is still doing it AND still relevant. Sure Mariah is prolific, but she's not respected enough to get in just yet. Probably the same for Pat Benatar, Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Barbra, Cher, etc.
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Post by Push The Button on Nov 5, 2018 20:55:44 GMT -5
The argument is that hits have nothing to do with induction. Impact and influence on other generations are what get you in.
Stevie and Tina solo, apparently, did not have the same influence on their own as they did in their groups.
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Post by Push The Button on Nov 5, 2018 20:57:44 GMT -5
But regardless a lot of female acts who haven't made it in have more hits than Nicks. Look at Janet who is nominated this year. Look at Mariah Carey. Look at Whitney Houston. Look at Barbra Streisand. Stevie, Janet and Chaka are the only females nominated so those others don't mean anything for the 2019 inductions. Also, you have to look at how long an artist is still doing it AND still relevant. Sure Mariah is prolific, but she's not respected enough to get in just yet. Probably the same for Pat Benatar, Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Barbra, Cher, etc. 76 year-old Barbra Streisand isn't respected enough to get in? Come on. She was eligible at the first ever ceremony. Those artists do not fit in with the nomination criteria. Take that however you want.
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Nov 5, 2018 21:13:32 GMT -5
^ I agree with you, but you can see how the voting has been going over the years.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 5, 2018 23:06:42 GMT -5
For the artists listed above how do they meet the following criteria?
Eligibility
"Artistsโa group encompassing performers, composers and/or musiciansโbecome eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first commercial recording. Besides demonstrating unquestionable musical excellence and talent, inductees will have had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll."
Granted they all have unquestionable musical excellence and talent and have been around 25 years but what about "a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll."?
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garrettlen
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Post by garrettlen on Nov 6, 2018 0:10:41 GMT -5
Barbra Streisand isn't remotely rock and roll, nor are Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey.
Yes I know Madonna got in, and on her first ballot too, but she's more "rock and roll" than any of those other ladies.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 7:03:30 GMT -5
Which would be the reason, more so than their gender, that they have not been inducted
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 6, 2018 8:23:42 GMT -5
Barbra Streisand isn't remotely rock and roll, nor are Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey. Yes I know Madonna got in, and on her first ballot too, but she's more "rock and roll" than any of those other ladies. And yet Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, etc are in the HoF. How are they more "rock and roll" than Whitney and Mariah?
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 9:37:45 GMT -5
How have Whitney & Mariah
"had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll"?
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 6, 2018 12:10:30 GMT -5
How have Whitney & Mariah "had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll"? It depends how you define "rock and roll." Both have obviously had huge influence on the development/evolution of generations of singers. In addition to that Mariah has had huge influence in fusing pop and hip-hop. You could argue they aren't "rock and roll," but that's where I come back to asking how Gladys Knight, Aretha Franklin, etc are "rock and roll" then?
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 12:22:19 GMT -5
I interpret the language as to develop, help evolve or preserve rock n' roll does not necessarily mean you have to be a rock singer
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 6, 2018 12:23:42 GMT -5
I interpret the language as to develop, help evolve or preserve rock n' roll does not necessarily mean you have to be a rock singer So then why are you questioning Whitney, Mariah, Barbra etc as "rock?"
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 12:36:16 GMT -5
I interpret the language as to develop, help evolve or preserve rock n' roll does not necessarily mean you have to be a rock singer So then why are you questioning Whitney, Mariah, Barbra etc as "rock?" I think it is genre more than gender as to why they have not been selected. If you think they belong that how do you think they have helped the rock genre according to the posted criteria?
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Nov 6, 2018 12:40:04 GMT -5
Funny how this conversation comes up when itโs about female musicians. I wonder if it would be the same if it were male musicians who are also as non-rock as those being questioned.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 13:01:24 GMT -5
Lots of male musicians with lots of hits from the same era and before that also have never been nominated.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Nov 6, 2018 13:52:16 GMT -5
Good point. The industry isnโt biased against women.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 14:10:31 GMT -5
No one has answered my question yet. Why do Mariah and Whitney belong in the hall based on the posted criteria
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 6, 2018 20:54:25 GMT -5
So then why are you questioning Whitney, Mariah, Barbra etc as "rock?" I think it is genre more than gender as to why they have not been selected. If you think they belong that how do you think they have helped the rock genre according to the posted criteria? My point being you keep saying they arenโt in because they arenโt โrock,โ yet at the same time said the criteria doesnโt mean you have to be a rock singer. That is a contradiction on your part and/or the HoFโs part. What I am saying is if R&B singers like Gladys Knight and Stevie Wonder can get in, there is no excuse for Mariah and Whitney to not get in. And I did answer your question as to why Mariah and Whitney should be in. I did it here, which you know because you then addressed that post. More so it is actually very easy to make the argument that Mariah Carey has been the most influential artist of the past 30 years. From โVision of Loveโ to โHeroโ to โAll I Want for Christmas is Youโ to โFantasyโ remix to โWe Belong Together,โ sheโs had hugely impactful songs that have influenced singers as well as where music went.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 21:01:26 GMT -5
I think it is genre more than gender as to why they have not been selected. If you think they belong that how do you think they have helped the rock genre according to the posted criteria? My point being you keep saying they arenโt in because they arenโt โrock,โ yet at the same time said the criteria doesnโt mean you have to be a rock singer. That is a contradiction. What I am saying is if female R&B singers like Gladys Knight can get in, there is no excuse for Mariah and Whitney to not get in. I thought I was clear, I apologize if not. Let's try again "Artistsโa group encompassing performers, composers and/or musiciansโbecome eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first commercial recording. Besides demonstrating unquestionable musical excellence and talent, inductees will have had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll."
This is the posted criteria the voters use. What part of "inductees will have had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll" did Whitney and Mariah accomplish? You are the one that insists that there is no excuse for Whitney and Mariah to get in. Why? Based on the criteria used to determine this, why is Mariah and Whitney deserving? I interpret that to mean, your core genre does not have to be rock but in some way you have had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll. How does this apply to Mariah and Whitney?
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 6, 2018 21:10:20 GMT -5
My point being you keep saying they arenโt in because they arenโt โrock,โ yet at the same time said the criteria doesnโt mean you have to be a rock singer. That is a contradiction. What I am saying is if female R&B singers like Gladys Knight can get in, there is no excuse for Mariah and Whitney to not get in. I thought I was clear, I apologize if not. "Artistsโa group encompassing performers, composers and/or musiciansโbecome eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first commercial recording. Besides demonstrating unquestionable musical excellence and talent, inductees will have had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll." This is the posted criteria the voters use. What part of "inductees will have had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll" did Whitney and Mariah accomplish? You are the one that insists that there is no excuse for Whitney and Mariah to get in. Why? Based on the criteria used to determine this, why is Mariah and Whitney deserving? Iโve already mentioned their influence on generations of singers (which involves the evolving of singing styles), as well as Mariahโs influence on the merging of pop and hip-hop. I donโt understand how that doesnโt answer your question. The fact that we still have pop stars adding rap verses in 2018 is a testament to Mariahโs legacy (itโs not solely due to her, of course, but nearly everyone points to the โFantsayโ remix as where it all shifted). Mariah also helped make holiday music a viable commercial option. What you have yet to address in any way is how Gladys Knight and Stevie Wonder, who are in the HoF, did what you keep asking me how Mariah and Whitney did. Iโd of course then ask how Bob Jovi impacted the evolution and development of rock and roll since theyโre in the HoF. Mariah has certainly had a larger influence in music than they have.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 21:25:21 GMT -5
The voters obviously felt that Gladys Knight and Stevie Wonder & Bon Jovi had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of Rock N Roll.
If Mariah were up for the "Pop Hall of Fame", she probably would already be in.
The voting committee has gradually over time expanded the definition of what "rock n roll" is. When someday they expand the definition to include pop music, more of yesterday's pop stars will undoubtedly make it. We just have to wait for the day that there are enough voters on the voting committee that are willing to do that.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 6, 2018 21:26:23 GMT -5
The voters obviously felt that Gladys Knight and Stevie Wonder & Bon Jovi had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of Rock N Roll. If you were campaigning for Mariah to be in the "Pop Hall of Fame", she probably would already be in. The voting committee has gradually over time expanded the definition of what "rock n roll" is. When someday they expand the definition to include pop music, more of yesterday's pop stars will undoubtedly make it. We just have to wait for the day that there are enough voters on the voting committee that are willing to do that. That was such a politician answer in that you wrote 3 stanzas yet said not one thing.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 6, 2018 21:36:10 GMT -5
I am not on the voting committee. You think pop singers should make the rock n roll hall of fame but many have not. Why? The voters do not think they meet the criteria that I posted. (The criteria, btw, came from the rock hall website).
Until they do, nothing will change.
Gradually over time they have changed by starting to let rap groups/singers in, for example. Maybe someday they will expand it again to include pop.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Nov 6, 2018 21:51:10 GMT -5
The question is fair. Why did the voters choose to vote Gladys Knight and Stevie Wonder in given the criteria that for some reason shouldn't apply to Mariah and Whitney? Then you have pop acts like ABBA, folk acts like Leonard Cohen, rap artists like NWA. Why is there suddenly an issue against two female pop vocalists because they don't constitute "rock and roll"?
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Nov 6, 2018 21:54:43 GMT -5
The question is fair. Why did the voters choose to vote Gladys Knight and Stevie Wonder in given the criteria that for some reason shouldn't apply to Mariah and Whitney? Then you have pop acts like ABBA, folk acts like Leonard Cohen, rap artists like NWA. Why is there suddenly an issue against two female pop vocalists because they don't constitute "rock and roll"? Thank you. This is the exact question no one seems to be able to answer. Itโs also unfair to simply call Mariah and Whitney โpop singersโ as they are so much more.
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