SPRΞΞ
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Post by SPRΞΞ on Jul 4, 2011 2:40:14 GMT -5
^Indeed- that's why they are the templates for male and female in pop music (1970s-on). As much as someone like Gaga follows in Madge's footsteps, she will not reach that level- nor be thought of in the same regard. Since this is a thread about pop females and all, this write-up from Ovation TV's American Revolutionaries series nicely sums up what separates Madge from everyone else: www.citycorellc.com/projects/ovation/Artist/index.php?artist=MadonnaFew artists in American music history have managed to stay relevant, controversial and in demand for almost 30 years, like Madonna. Madonna is more than a musician and pop icon, she's a revolutionary who has carved a spot in our cultural history as a champion of gender equality and sexual empowerment. Early in her career, Madonna did more than simply define the style and sound of the 80’s, she brought substance and meaning to pop music. Madonna dared to be shocking at a time when much of American culture was heading in a more conservative direction. With strength and fortitude, Madonna brought unabashed sexuality to the feminist movement. It wasn't welcomed by everyone, but she was never one to be silenced. Throughout her career, Madonna has challenged the church, politicians and cultural mores across the world with little concern or fear for what it would do to her album sales and popularity. Madonna’s undeniable desire to stay true to herself while also reinventing herself to define the times has put her on a pedestal that few other artists have reached. Maybe that's why she's the top selling female musician of all time. it's gonna be fun watching Gaga's 4th single...and 5th.
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Post by ingrownhairdyke on Jul 4, 2011 4:53:23 GMT -5
lol at 3 years.. But of course its by Trolling Stone.
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jul 4, 2011 5:05:08 GMT -5
Funny how the time frame is tailored to give Gaga the upper hand. If the entire last decade was considered, the list might look quite different. And if were done for the last 10 years beyonce would win. If it were done for 5it would be beyonce or rihanna. What's the point? Actually it would be a run off betweet Britney and Beyonce. But whatever makes you feel like you've made a statement.
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slw84
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Post by slw84 on Jul 4, 2011 5:59:13 GMT -5
How's he supposed to give proof that someone could touch Madonna's career? You ask for receipts for something that's actually happened. He can't give receipts that it will happen as much as you can't that it won't. And for the record, you're generally missing something. Well, receipts would make sense, right. You get a receipt AFTER something is purchased. the receipts would be the success that has already occurred (Madonna)...the idea was that no female will statistically have the success as a musician. Music in the entertainment industry can be viewed as before and after Madonna. When you are a trailblazer and set the blueprint...revolutionary and completely change the game of music and it works and is successful...how can somebody do that again. I mean your point lies on the fact that no one can predict the future but might point lies on realism. She is the female musician that has made the most impact in the entertainment industry and she is the top selling female...none of her predecessors are even close to achieving that...by me asking for receipts is asking for someone to show me an artist that can even come close...still waiting tbh. I don't even care too much for madonna but that is not the point. LOL.
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slw84
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Post by slw84 on Jul 4, 2011 6:04:08 GMT -5
We're only months away from the 29th anniversary of Madonna's first single release. If some other girl is gonna come around and out-do Madonna's career, where is she? Like I said, nothing has the same impact the 2nd time around. What could another female act even do to touch Madonna's career? Chronology trumps all, and all of Madonna's alleged competition are coming after Madonna has already done all that she has done. Madonna was that rare mix of massive commercial success, legitimate musical and cultural impact, AND great music. Just like how no other male artist is gonna top MJ, not other female artist is gonna top Madonna. Just wait 20 years with Gaga. ;) I'm willing to bet that she will not only match, but top Madonna by then. Gaga's already touring on the level of legendary acts like Bon Jovi and Celine Dion (although she doesn't tour an awful lot). Sigh...let's wait the next 5 years tbh. The real litmus test of longevity, impact and legendary status happens after the peak and hype is down...how do you sustain? what are you made of? Not my opinion but some are already seeing that Gaga is peaking and its only 3 years. As much as you may not like it, the fact that gaga is considered a knockoff Madonna makes it hard to fathom that she would even match Madge's success.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 4:20:30 GMT -5
Just wait 20 years with Gaga. ;) I'm willing to bet that she will not only match, but top Madonna by then. Gaga's already touring on the level of legendary acts like Bon Jovi and Celine Dion (although she doesn't tour an awful lot). Sigh...let's wait the next 5 years tbh. The real litmus test of longevity, impact and legendary status happens after the peak and hype is down...how do you sustain? what are you made of? Not my opinion but some are already seeing that Gaga is peaking and its only 3 years. As much as you may not like it, the fact that gaga is considered a knockoff Madonna makes it hard to fathom that she would even match Madge's success. I really don't see how she's peaking, but okay. Judas underperforming and The Edge of Glory NOT having a #1 peak ≠ OMG SHE'S PEAKING AND DECLINING. If she was really peaking, she wouldn't have had a 1.1 million opening [regardless of the Amazon sales numbers] and a 6-week debut #1 lead-off single, as well as become a touring monster. I really, really won't be surprised if Gaga matches Madge's success, tbh. She's already got a following like no other, and it's only been 3 years in the business. We'll see how it fares out in the long run, obviously, but right now I'm going out and saying that Gaga will be a force to be reckoned with for the next couple of decades to come.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 5:30:24 GMT -5
Regardless of the level of success that Gaga may achieve, Madonna broke down doors and created the template for the female visual artist in music. It's something that can't be surpassed by mere numbers.
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The Gypsy
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Post by The Gypsy on Jul 5, 2011 10:09:37 GMT -5
Are you mad because she beat out Taylor? Get over yourself. I'm not mad at all because Taylor beat Gaga in album sales AND album reviews...categories that actually matter. Gaga beat Taylor in twitter followers...wow, congrats! Haha. LOL like anyone cares about what the wise sages on metacritic have to say about pop stars like Gaga? The fact they have the same rating from RS shows how they are viewed by actual professionals. And Yes Taylor beat Gaga in Album Sales by about 2.5 mililion... but Gaga's singles sales were over Taylor by 8 million and Gaga crushed her in airplay and Touring.... i figure those are all pretty important too, if album reviews are so damn important.
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Jul 5, 2011 15:36:46 GMT -5
We're only months away from the 29th anniversary of Madonna's first single release. If some other girl is gonna come around and out-do Madonna's career, where is she? Like I said, nothing has the same impact the 2nd time around. What could another female act even do to touch Madonna's career? Chronology trumps all, and all of Madonna's alleged competition are coming after Madonna has already done all that she has done. Madonna was that rare mix of massive commercial success, legitimate musical and cultural impact, AND great music. Just like how no other male artist is gonna top MJ, not other female artist is gonna top Madonna. Just wait 20 years with Gaga. ;) I'm willing to bet that she will not only match, but top Madonna by then. Gaga's already touring on the level of legendary acts like Bon Jovi and Celine Dion (although she doesn't tour an awful lot). The same way The Rolling Stones/Queen/Led Zeppelin/Pink Floyd/U2/Metallica/etc "topped" the Beatles? ;) All massively successful in their own right but they still can't touch the overall commercial success, fame, impact or influence of the Beatles. Again, the person/people who does/do and achieve(s) it all first will never be surpassed. It's impossible. After something is done, it's done. After those doors are opened, they're opened... No other female act can or will touch Madonna. When she comes back again next year to launch her her next album and then her next tour she'll remind everyone of that, in one way or another. It's the same as how nobody from George Micheal to Usher to Justin Bieber was able to/will be able to catch MJ.
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Jul 5, 2011 15:38:26 GMT -5
I'm not mad at all because Taylor beat Gaga in album sales AND album reviews...categories that actually matter. Gaga beat Taylor in twitter followers...wow, congrats! Haha. LOL like anyone cares about what the wise sages on metacritic have to say about pop stars like Gaga? The fact they have the same rating from RS shows how they are viewed by actual professionals. You realize that Metacritic compiles reviews, right?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 15:45:05 GMT -5
The thing is, in 1961 I'm sure everybody would have been saying the same things. Oh, Elvis has come along and broken down all the barriers for rock and roll music. And then the Beatles came along. Madonna did things that people never saw coming, who's to say an artist won't come along and do the same? I'm not saying Lady Gaga is every going to somehow surpass Madonna. That would be ridiculous. But to say all the barriers have been broken down and it's a fact that nobody is ever going to surpass the artists of the last half-decade and change the face of music again is bizarre.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jul 5, 2011 15:49:56 GMT -5
Absolutely, PDC- that is why Madonna is regarded as she is, and put on a pedestal, to a degree. Same with Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Michael Jackson, etc.- they all had the respected and celebrated music in common (The Beatles at a level incomparable to others), but they attained their overall reverence for different reasons. For Madonna, it was taking those various social mores and using music/entertainment as a platform to shine the spotlight on them, and to inspire debate and discussion. That's what makes her so important, and no level of success by another act will ever change that.
In this fast-paced information-flow era we live in, it probably would be tough for an act to have the same kind of impact seen by the Big 4 (yes, I coined that. hehe) or reach that level of importance. For someone like Gaga, a lot see it as Madonna Redux (with more outrageous/"freaky" wardrobe choices), so it's not looking like she will leave that stamp that makes her a unique icon. But, it is still early in her career, so we'll see.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Jul 5, 2011 16:41:33 GMT -5
There's a lot of good discussion here. I think the best thing GaGa needs to try to do is to purposely try to not do what Madonna has done. I doubt she's intentionally trying to be like her but it's very easy to find similarities between them and I think she needs to stray as far away from those as she can. One area she has that Madonna doesn't is her pure musicianship as a pianist, as well as her explicit role in gay-related events. Madonna is a gay icon but GaGa is throwing herself in there and I think that's an avenue where she can "break down doors".
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jul 5, 2011 16:45:58 GMT -5
^That is true, though Madonna did play guitar and drums before releasing her debut album, and she has strapped on a guitar a lot in the last several years. Though, Jimi Hendrix she is not in that sense. hehe RE Gaga- one could say she's "pandering" to the gay audience more than Madonna did. Aside from being a gay icon, Madonna of course did a lot for the homosexual community, taking part in AIDS events, depicting homosexuality in her work, all of that. But, she didn't have to use words like "gay," "lesbian," "transgender," etc. in her songs for the message of acceptance and pride to shine through- just one viewpoint. :) I've always maintained that of all the "wannabes," Gaga had the qualities that were most Madonna-like. But to carve out her own legend and unique status, she does need to get away from the blueprint that Madonna set. She is known for the crazy looks, but others have done that, too (i.e. Peter Gabriel, Elton John, Grace Jones, etc.) She really is the result of a bender mixed with various acts. If she does not want to be compared to all these other musical acts, she'd be wise to step back into the blender and undo the mix.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 16:57:07 GMT -5
The idea that Lady Gaga "panders" to her gay fans is completely ridiculous. She took a huge risk by mentioning gays and the transgendered in the chorus of "Born This Way". Instead of trying to walk the line by doing just enough to keep her gay fans happy, she risked alienating more conservative listeners. I'd say that's a lot better than lesser supposed gay icons than Madonna and Gaga who gain the title from doing camp music, but shy away from the real issues. Being so explicit with her support for gay rights is, like the Max said, an area where she genuinely is trailblazing.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jul 5, 2011 17:08:49 GMT -5
^Oh, I agree in that sense. I don't see how some other acts are seen as big gay icons, when they don't really do anything in their work to gain that kind of title, outside of, as you said, doing campy music or theatrics.
My point was just that one didn't need to use those words to get the point across. For instance, there was a rumor that "gay or straight" was going to be part of the lyrics for "Vogue"- but, I'm glad they didn't make the cut. There's no denying the track's status in the gay community- "It makes no difference if you're black or white, if you're a boy or a girl" was all-inclusive. Not saying the laundry list of sexualities and ethnicities in "Born This Way" is a bad thing by any means- but, she didn't necessarily have to spell everything out for it to be effective.
But, there ya go- that was something distinctive for her. :)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 17:16:39 GMT -5
That's where we disagree. It's 2011. We are taking the next step with gay rights all over the world and the fight for gay marriage. Lady Gaga took the next step with regards to songs about gay rights. There was a time when subtlety was called for, but it's not anymore. Everybody who got vague references in songs like "Vogue" is probably on board now, if they ever weren't. The whole point of "Born This Way" was to spell it out. You don't gain civil rights by being subtle.
I'm not in anyway suggesting that "Born This Way" has made a difference with regards to the furthering of gay rights, but we live in a different time. Somebody pointed out the importance of chronology a few pages back. The Beatles were the first band to do so much and it's important because they were the first. Well, here's where chronology works the other way round.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jul 5, 2011 17:24:20 GMT -5
^Those are good points. But, it's not like Madonna was gay-subtle in her work. Subtlety did work in something like "Vogue," but she wasn't exactly subtle in presenting gay themes in other aspects of her work (Truth or Dare, "Justify My Love" and "Erotica" videos, stage shows, etc.)
I believe that Gaga's intentions are great for what she does. She's clearly a champion for the gays, and, as Martha said, that is a good thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 17:28:10 GMT -5
That's kind of my point though. The fact that Lady Gaga is successful in a time where she can push more than just "gay themes" in videos is why she is pushing the boundaries, and is the kind of thing that future artists could do in order to match up to the greats.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 17:40:03 GMT -5
The thing is, in 1961 I'm sure everybody would have been saying the same things. Oh, Elvis has come along and broken down all the barriers for rock and roll music. And then the Beatles came along. Madonna did things that people never saw coming, who's to say an artist won't come along and do the same? I'm not saying Lady Gaga is every going to somehow surpass Madonna. That would be ridiculous. But to say all the barriers have been broken down and it's a fact that nobody is ever going to surpass the artists of the last half-decade and change the face of music again is bizarre. In terms of album sales though, I don't think anyone will be able to outsell her in the current sales climate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 17:45:38 GMT -5
It's pretty obvious that there aren't going to be any new female artists that come along and outsell Madonna in the next few years. But it moves in cycles. Fifteen years ago nobody could have predicted the way the industry has changed over the past decade. Who is to say it won't change back again just as quickly? We could get another artist on the Beatles/Michael/Madonna level who comes along and reinvigorates album sales in the same way the Beatles almost single-handedly kick-started them with Sgt. Pepper in the sixties.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 21:57:02 GMT -5
The idea that Lady Gaga "panders" to her gay fans is completely ridiculous. She took a huge risk by mentioning gays and the transgendered in the chorus of "Born This Way". Instead of trying to walk the line by doing just enough to keep her gay fans happy, she risked alienating more conservative listeners. I'd say that's a lot better than lesser supposed gay icons than Madonna and Gaga who gain the title from doing camp music, but shy away from the real issues. Being so explicit with her support for gay rights is, like the Max said, an area where she genuinely is trailblazing. Flawless post. Gaga is leading the way and taking the reigns that other artists, although may have wanted to, were too afraid to take.
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Minimalism
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Post by Minimalism on Jul 6, 2011 3:34:41 GMT -5
Ok, a little detour: I totally remember "The Four Heavenly Kings of Chinese Pop", as my sister had some of their compilation cassettes. I also owned Aaron Kwok's concert laser disc. I also remember hating on "Eternal Maiden Queen" (I never knew she is called that, what a nonsensical title) with a passion, though I have no idea as to the root of said hate. ... now do resume your relentless backing of your favorite divas.
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Oprah
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Post by Oprah on Jul 6, 2011 6:50:02 GMT -5
I totally remember "The Four Heavenly Kings of Chinese Pop", as my sister had some of their compilation cassettes. I also owned Aaron Kwok's concert laser disc. LOL, I didn't even realize he made music. Lord is he fine though, I'd ride that shit in a second.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jul 6, 2011 8:02:30 GMT -5
For most acts, that is true, 14887fan- but Madonna certainly was not one of them. Ain't nothing she was "afraid" to do in her work- her only "misstep" was pulling the "American Life" video, but it was understandable. Speaking out against war, the presidency, etc. evokes a public outcry apparently even stronger than other "sensitive" issues Madonna confronted in her work, like gender, race, religion and sexuality.
With Madonna almost 30 years into her career and not as button-pushing as she once was, it's good that someone like Gaga likes to stir the pot some- but, like I said before, she hopefully will escape the shadow of Madonna at some point. She's unlikely to ever challenge the Big 4's level of importance and success, but she doesn't need to, to become a long-term icon in her own right.
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slw84
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Post by slw84 on Jul 6, 2011 16:45:41 GMT -5
For most acts, that is true, 14887fan- but Madonna certainly was not one of them. Ain't nothing she was "afraid" to do in her work- her only "misstep" was pulling the "American Life" video, but it was understandable. Speaking out against war, the presidency, etc. evokes a public outcry apparently even stronger than other "sensitive" issues Madonna confronted in her work, like gender, race, religion and sexuality. I understood her reason. She is a mother and had children to protect. But I thought her biggest misstep was releasing the sex book BEFORE her album. She even admitted that later on...Also, the Hard Candy album cover...guuurrrlll. It's amazing to see Madonna as a package, though. Again, no one will ever be able to outdo her because it can not be done again. I really hope she can find new ways to reinvent herself. I don't want her to turn into Cher and just release dance music but I wonder what she will do to reinvent her image. Her last couple of eras were skeptical.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Jul 6, 2011 17:10:26 GMT -5
The thing is, in 1961 I'm sure everybody would have been saying the same things. Oh, Elvis has come along and broken down all the barriers for rock and roll music. And then the Beatles came along. Madonna did things that people never saw coming, who's to say an artist won't come along and do the same? I'm not saying Lady Gaga is every going to somehow surpass Madonna. That would be ridiculous. But to say all the barriers have been broken down and it's a fact that nobody is ever going to surpass the artists of the last half-decade and change the face of music again is bizarre. In terms of album sales though, I don't think anyone will be able to outsell her in the current sales climate. And I think because the sales climate has gone down so much, we should be looking at other areas to determine impact and success. You can't compare numbers of today to those from 20 or 40 years ago to come up with the same conclusion. It's just not an apt comparison so in my opinion, it seems rather pointless nowadays.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Jul 6, 2011 17:16:49 GMT -5
For most acts, that is true, 14887fan- but Madonna certainly was not one of them. Ain't nothing she was "afraid" to do in her work- her only "misstep" was pulling the "American Life" video, but it was understandable. Speaking out against war, the presidency, etc. evokes a public outcry apparently even stronger than other "sensitive" issues Madonna confronted in her work, like gender, race, religion and sexuality. With Madonna almost 30 years into her career and not as button-pushing as she once was, it's good that someone like Gaga likes to stir the pot some- but, like I said before, she hopefully will escape the shadow of Madonna at some point. She's unlikely to ever challenge the Big 4's level of importance and success, but she doesn't need to, to become a long-term icon in her own right. I also think the Madonna comparison is something that will always be there in some way. Other singers who were compared to her eventually were able to lose the comparisons because they either didn't maintain the level of success they had or someone else came along and took over the name of "next Madonna". I think people will always be able to find ways to compare Gaga to her, even if it's something minuscule. The comparisons were there at first and now it's a natural path for people to take. Even if Gaga is choosing her inspirations from someone else, as was mentioned above, such as her crazy fashion. Madonna isn't the only one to ever do outrageous fashion and image but she's the one Gaga is compared to, not Elton, or anyone else. So my worry is that even if she purposely tried to steer away, Madonna has covered a LOT of ground. It's like the ability to compare every single band to the Beatles in one way or another. They covered everything already. It's expected now that any band that comes out can have some comparison. It's no longer interesting to talk about anymore.
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Tea-why
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Post by Tea-why on Jul 7, 2011 7:54:41 GMT -5
^Those are good points. But, it's not like Madonna was gay-subtle in her work. Subtlety did work in something like "Vogue," but she wasn't exactly subtle in presenting gay themes in other aspects of her work ( Truth or Dare, "Justify My Love" and "Erotica" videos, stage shows, etc.) I believe that Gaga's intentions are great for what she does. She's clearly a champion for the gays, and, as Martha said, that is a good thing. I think the fact that Madonna went that far in the early 90's was even more impressive.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Jul 7, 2011 14:02:02 GMT -5
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