Producers & Songwriters Section/Industry News Subforum

[Glove Slap]

This is from a conversation that sprung up between Dudley and myself after her (excellent) PMA Interview that included Kurt, who shared very very similar sentiments. I'm gonna post that here because it outlines the reasons for what is being suggested here.

Dec 26, 2014 4:43:48 GMT -5 Glove Slap said:

Dec 26, 2014 2:09:28 GMT -5 @spiritanimal said:

Dudley- I've always thought it would be cool if each format had its own "News & Non-Singles Discussion" sub-forum where they could discuss format trends and history. I feel like this would be especially valuable with the emergence of so many artists who blur genre lines.

Kurt-On another note, I'd like to see more interest and discussion in the music industry itself, rather than just the music and its stars - that is one thing I really like about the atmosphere of the country forum that I'd love to see in other genre forums as well.

These would be so so awesome if they could happen, especially more discussions on the music industry itself rather than just the recording vocalists, that is probably the #1 thing I wish would most happen here over anything else. I have never actually posted in the Country forum to my memory, but I frequent it very often and I definitely enjoy how a large percentage of the posters there are plugged into what is actually going on behind the scenes. If there's ever a move for a more industry related section (rather than just having most news in the general section where they'd be quickly pushed down by the HDD/Billboard threads), I would be all for it and would definitely be willing to help out too if extra hands were needed. (Kurt/43dudleyvillas)

Also, I hadn't realized that some of the interviews concluded significantly later. It was definitely interesting to read reactions to something as it was unfolding.

Dec 26, 2014 14:27:27 GMT -5 43dudleyvillas said:

Dec 26, 2014 4:43:48 GMT -5 Glove Slap said:

I don't know if this fits what you have in mind (or if this thread is really the place to discuss it), but one of the things that came up in the Director Coco Cut of this interview is the possibility of having a section where we dedicate threads to discussions of individual songwriters, producers, DJs, instrumentalists, etc. Right now, most of those discussions take place through the filters of recording vocalists (or occasionally in the Your Opinion Please? or the Polling Booth forums), but the idea would be to allow for a place to put a spotlight on the collected works of the behind-the-scenes people - the Max Martins, the Bonnie McKees, the Natalie Hembys, the Jay Joyces, the Paul Franklins, the Ester Deans, the Harvey Mason Jrs, the Dan Auerbachs, etc.. Every mainstream genre goes through periods where certain songwriters/producers become really in-demand, and we could track more of that happening if we had the threads dedicated to discussing those individuals (and sometimes, we see songwriters moving from people landing outside cuts to recording artists themselves, so the earlier discussions could be extra-useful). We could discuss what's unique about their sound, track it over the years and multiple releases (a Ryan Tedder thread might get...interesting), etc. I don't think it would have to be a genre-based forum, especially because increasingly, publishing companies are trying to encourage writers based in certain genres to branch out/cross over, and there's some producer crossover as well. 

Dec 26, 2014 17:56:15 GMT -5 Glove Slap said:

Dec 26, 2014 14:27:27 GMT -5 43dudleyvillas said:

I would absolutely love a producer section. As someone who generally checks the producer credits whenever I listen to music, it would definitely be a massive positive in my eyes. Especially as you said with some modern producers trying to adjust their sounds to appeal to new trends and different genres (i.e. If you played Dark Horse for people when Since U Been Gone was a current hit, a lot would have been surprised that they had the same producer, and to use an example of songwriting most would not have pegged Stargate to have writing credits on a Lady Antebellum Country single that heavily borrowed from Mumford & Sons sonically). I mean I probably would never really listen to Britney Spears or Katy Perry records if the production was removed, but the production is what really makes those, and a large amount of music I listen to (even acoustic driven material), into a very strong final product, and I don't say that as an insult to anyone whatsoever. I think some people do not realize this that a "stripped-back" sound has production as well (but that's a different discussion ). 

Regarding the other issue of discussing happenings in the industry (deals, mergers, legal happenings (that Irving Azoff vs. Youtube battle that's about to take off is interesting to me to no end), new appointments of executives and directors, things going on with publishing, etc.), what I had in mind was along the lines of a subforum in the General News section for that stuff. What the subforum would essentially accomplish is put these topics where they can be observed and discussed separately without getting lost in the deluge of weekly chart threads, boxscore data, passings, lists, etc. A separate subforum would also allow for easier continuity in those threads because all the information surround one subject could be updated as it occurred without the previous stuff getting buried. This would especially be helpful of subjects involving legalities, due to the snail speed of the legal system. 

(Or there could be a separate forum for Behind The Scenes stuff that separates into creative (aka producers, songwriters, possible notable session musicians or background vocalists if people would like, and the sort) and business (essentially the above second paragraph) sections. The only reason a separate forum for these 2 came to mind is because I'm not really sure where the producer section would really go due to genre crossover, and especially with how much different formats and genres are influenced by each other in today's world).

I agree that this isn't really the proper place to discuss all this, but please by all means feel free to move these posts to a new thread in the Announcements forum to see if others may be interested or had ideas of their own. I would definitely be interested in trying to think this through further, even if it might not get implemented in the end.

Dec 26, 2014 21:03:59 GMT -5 43dudleyvillas said:

Glove Slap, love your ideas -- I think it would be great to get a discussion going in the Announcements forum about putting your proposals into action. We could always make the producer/songwriter/sessions player/background vocalist section a third subforum under the General Artist Discussion section, because your point about a General Music News subforum for industry discussions makes a lot of sense.

So on the whole, I'm wondering what people think about these two ideas, and please add any suggestions, changes, or different possibilities if you think of some.

1. Having a subforum within the Music News section for topics regarding the behind the scenes business workings of the industry. This would separate these topics from the weekly chart threads, YTD threads, lists, etc., and put these subjects, a good amount of which move slowly at times, in a place where it would be easier for discussions and updates to be continuous, rather than have them be pushed down by chart threads. 

2. Adding a separate section to discuss Producers, Songwriters, and other notable creative individuals who work behind the scenes. This would be a 3rd section within the Artist Discussion forums.

Note: This would not mean that Producers couldn't get their own 'era' topics in the regular artists threads; the new section would be to follow and discuss their work and approach on a holistic level. So for example, Pharrell Williams would still get threads for his albums when he releases (and things like singles, promo, etc. will continue to be discussed there), but there would be an additional thread within the new sections to discuss all the work that he does, including his own and that for other artists, or other projects (soundtracks, compilations, etc.). Ditto for people like Mark Ronson, Sia, Bonnie Mckee. Ryan Tedder/OneRepublic, etc.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

It is a great idea! It could be called Behind The Scenes and include all portions of music behind the actual songs and albums including songwriting, production, engineering, managers. Even a subsection for things like marketing or album artwork, and record label politics.

[Linnethia Monique]

I would actually love that since I'm more into the production side of things in general.

[surfy]

Oh! Interesting... me gusta

[Libra]

Do you think this might warrant a status as something like an offshoot of General Music News, rather than as a subforum?

I'm thinking of the way we have the Artist Discussion forums currently set up, where those are organized into two halves essentially sharing equal billing.

I'm not sure if this would get the level of attention that GMN currently does, but my concern about this being a subforum is, predictably, that it'd get even less attention as a subforum.

[Glove Slap]

Dec 27, 2014 20:51:58 GMT -5 Libra said:

Do you think this might warrant a status as something like an offshoot of General Music News, rather than as a subforum?

You mean something along the lines of separating the news forum into Chart News and Industry News?

[Green Baron]

lol, every topic in the rock board is its own news/non-single discussion

[Libra]

Dec 27, 2014 21:19:16 GMT -5 Glove Slap said:

You mean something along the lines of separating the news forum into Chart News and Industry News?

Hmmmmmmm. With the glut of separate chart threads that have popped up or become long-running info threads in GMN as of late, that might actually work out well.

[Kurt]

(now that I'm reading this on my laptop instead of my iPad...)

There are several ideas here and I like all of them - glad to see our interview may lead to some new ideas! :) When we first brought up the idea of the Country subforum, we had discussed the potential for rolling it out to other forums as well if it worked well for the country posters. While I think it has done very well over there, I'm not so sure individual genre forums for each would be a good idea since there's more overlap and would cause unnecessary fragmentation. I like the idea of a new forum next to General Music News, and I also wouldn't be opposed to splitting it between chart and industry news. A Songwriters & Producers forum is something I'd enjoy seeing, similar to our artist threads. I'd also love to see a place to discuss industry news (e.g. debates over Spotify and YouTube streaming, album marketing campaigns/companies, management companies, leaks, surprise album rollouts, etc.) and agree with Glove Slap that it'd be best suited as a forum separate from our current GNM section (whether that means splitting the chart updates away or just adding a new forum probably doesn't matter much, ultimately). Whatever we decide on doing, I expect I'll be all for it; I look forward to having more industry-based areas of discussion on Pulse to go along with our robust radio and chart focus.

[hitseeker.]

Great ideas, Glove Slap! :) I believe they would add to the quality of the board and the music discussions that would inevitably ensue, plus people would have an outlet to discuss matters related to the production side of music and the business topics, which are as important as discussing artists' performances on charts imo.

I think it would work better as its own forum, seperate from GMN,(Behind The Scenes if you want to call it that way; I like the name) with 2 different sections: Production/Songwriting and Business. In the first section, the work of producers and songwriters across genres could be discussed, whereas the second section would deal with the types of news/occurrences Kurt mentioned above such as album campaigns/streaming deals/etc. I feel since Production/Songwriting and Business both relate to BTS issues, so to speak, they could work well as different sections of the same forum.

[Linnethia Monique]

I would so be on top of this since I love to aggregate this type of data. It would help people discover producers less popular work as well since the implementation of YouTube and Soundcloud would be valuable assets there.

[Chelsea Press 2]

I like this idea too! Let's do it!

[14887fan]

I. Would. Love. This. I was literally just talking on the phone with my parents about my (endless) pursuits towards being in the music industry in some capacity, and I've been reading great books about the history of the music industry and books about songwriting, so coming on here immediately after all of that to see this really makes me happy.

I'd be all over the idea of discussing BTS stuff. I agree with Kurt and Dudley's sentiments -- I'd love to have a section of the board where we can discuss music, the industry, and the machine behind the stars, the glitz and glam, and the finished product that we focus on so heavily. I think a place to openly talk about songwriters of genres that are foreign to others would be an especially huge addition to this place. Funnily enough, and this place seems like a great place to post this, I had absolutely no idea who Bonnie McKee or Sia were until they released Pop hits themselves ("hit" more or less for McKee's sake compared to Sia, but you get my point). That, and prior to posting my review of the song in my DOA review thread in the subforum on here, I couldn't even find out who wrote "Let Me Know" by Tamar Braxton, which was a song I was reviewing at the time. Reciprocally, just this past December, so many people were clueless as to who Brandy Clark was upon her Best New Artist nomination at the Grammys, whereas, being a Country fan, I knew all about her and was over-the-moon happy to see such a daring and exceptional songwriter get an all-genre nod at the Grammys, of all places. It'd be such a fantastic opportunity for everyone to get to know, see, hear, and read other songwriters' work in different genres that they normally wouldn't look into.
I know in the Country News & Non-Singles Discussion subfolder, we have color-coded labels such as "Listening Party!" (for new album release discussions) for each thread title that shows up on the main page of the list of threads. If this subforum were to happen, maybe those could be implemented with the names of each genre (i.e., "Pop" in blue, "Country" in red, "R&B/Urban" in green, etc./whatever color combos you want lol) so that way people are able to separate songwriters, producers, etc. and know who is prominent and pertinent to what genre, etc.

This excites me so much. SO MUCH. Agh.

[someguy]

Sounds like a great idea. There's some discussion of this in the country subforum, but it would be nice to have a specific space to discuss the behind the scenes aspects of all genres.

[Libra]

Something to think about: Where would the best place(s) be to house "behind the scenes" discussion, as well as producer/songwriter discussion?

[43dudleyvillas]

It's obvious from the OP but I wanted to reiterate my interest in and support for forums dedicated to non-chart-related industry news and to songwriters/producers/DJs/sessions musicians and say I'm really glad to see such wide-ranging interest in both.

I'm honestly torn on the placement of the forums. My initial instinct (as noted in the OP) was to support a General Music News section with two subforums (All-Genre Chart Discussions and Industry News) while the Behind The Music forum became a third subforum under General Artist Discussion, alongside the A-J and K-Z forums. That organization feels logical within our current structure. On the other hand, hitseeker.'s suggestion of a new Behind The Scenes section with a Business subforum and a Production/Songwriting subforum makes a lot of sense, too. And I'm beginning to wonder if, at least in the beginning stages, it might be better from a traffic/development standpoint to go with hitseeker.'s proposal.

As for the General News & Non-Singles Discussion subforum in every (or several other) format section idea, I definitely see Kurt's point about the possibility of overlap and also of unnecessary fragmentation. What I was envisioning/hoping for, though, was to offer a genre-based place for fans to discuss the increased number of name artists who are current and relevant but are, in the era of narrowing playlists, being shoved off radio. It's true that we already have the General Artist Discussion section that technically should serve that purpose. But threads for non-mainstream artists get shoved down and off the first page pretty quickly in those forums, and I was thinking that a subforum that allowed for genre-based discussion not as tied to radio could encourage more participation by genre-based fans. This probably feels like an odd, counter-intuitive suggestion considering that we have moved into a music world where boundaries between genres are coming down. But I guess my thought was that maybe we can accommodate both genre-based fans alongside fans who are listening across genres.

I also think the potential value of genre-based subforums includes the ability to have focused discussions on radio (and genre) trends within specific formats based on articles devoted to those formats (this one on the impact of the changes to the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs methodology on adult female R&B came to mind, there is also quite a lot of literature out there on the decline of rock radio's popularity over the past fifteen years), reminisce about historical charts and legacy artists within those formats, and encourage a sense of community and historical tradition within genres (in an educational way, not an exclusive way, hopefully). Basically, the idea here would be to have it all at Pulse: the ability to dive deep into a genre to discuss charts, outliers, and non-radio developments alongside the ability that we already have to dive deep into all-genre news to discuss charts, outliers, and non-radio developments across all genres.

[Deleted]

I endorse this.

[Deleted]

GROUNDBREAKING INTERVIEW

I also would love to see implementations come from my interview with the 4 greats.

[Libra]

OK. So...we've had a couple of ideas for what we could create and what forms they would take, thus far.

"News + Non-Singles" for other formats besides Country (may or may not be for all others, but would at least some would get it) have been discussed.

There's also been discussion for places to discuss music industry news in better detail, as well as a place to discuss producers/songwriters/etc. in better detail as it relates to their exact roles in music-making.

To sum it up...

Suggested ideas for Industry News

• A subforum
• Splitting General Music News into (in the simplest terms) Chart News and Industry News
• Creating Behind The Scenes with Business being a section

Suggested ideas for Producer/Songwriter discussion

• A third forum under General Artist Discussion
• Creating Behind The Scenes with this as a section

I'm most in favor of having Producers/Songwriters/etc. as a third forum under General Artist Discussion, and for Industry News/Behind The Scenes, to split General Music News into Chart News and Industry News (and I'm sure we can come up with not-so-bland names for the two sides as well, LOL).

The way I think about it, what it comes down to is this: If we create a home for industry news + happenings to have their threads separated from the General Music News forum that currently exists now, then what will happen to GMN is that it will, essentially, become a Chart News forum by default. Literally every other news-based topic could, arguably, fall into an industry news-based forum - the only kinds of threads besides chart news that I can think of that might not be instant fits for industry news are deaths, because I could see some people wanting to keep death threads separate from other industry-based discussion. But quite frankly, there isn't much sense in having a forum called "General Music News" that would consist of only chart news and deaths.

We currently have different ideas on where the industry news + happenings discussions should be, but the one thing about it that we all currently seem to agree on, is that it needs a home separate from General Music News (even as a subforum of that). For that reason, it seems inevitable to me that no matter what we decide to do with "industry news", GMN would become almost exclusively the forum of chart news.

So, I'm coming down strongly in favor of splitting General Music News into areas of chart news discussion and industry news/behind the scenes discussion. All things considered, I think this would be an improvement to our music news areas anyway, seeing as GMN in its current form really is a smorgasbord forum. This would also be the way to best reflect what the trends of member traffic and thread placements would end up being. With GMN being split to accomodate the behind the scenes forum placement, I'd say it would make the most sense to place the Producer/Songwriter forum as the third forum under General Artist Discussion.


Having said all this now...how much longer do we want to pool ideas here before we start moving towards making these happen?

[josh]

What would you do with producers like Calvin Harris, David Guetta, Zedd, etc. who are producers but are making their own singles/albums as lead artists? Keep them in the "main" artists section as is, and relegate the new section to producers like Dr. Luke, Max Martin, and the like who are never lead/featured artists?

[Libra]

Jan 4, 2015 20:36:35 GMT -5 josh said:

What would you do with producers like Calvin Harris, David Guetta, Zedd, etc. who are producers but are making their own singles/albums as lead artists? Keep them in the "main" artists section as is, and relegate the new section to producers like Dr. Luke, Max Martin, and the like who are never lead/featured artists?

This, possibly?:

Dec 27, 2014 13:28:14 GMT -5 Glove Slap said:

Note: This would not mean that Producers couldn't get their own 'era' topics in the regular artists threads; the new section would be to follow and discuss their work and approach on a holistic level. So for example, Pharrell Williams would still get threads for his albums when he releases (and things like singles, promo, etc. will continue to be discussed there), but there would be an additional thread within the new sections to discuss all the work that he does, including his own and that for other artists, or other projects (soundtracks, compilations, etc.). Ditto for people like Mark Ronson, Sia, Bonnie Mckee. Ryan Tedder/OneRepublic, etc.

(43dudleyvillas/Kurt - any reason not to handle it this way?)

[josh]

Oh. All the names I searched were ones not mentioned in his post lol. I'm sick and couldn't be bothered to read all these posts lol but that works. I think we'll run into duplicate info being posted in both threads, but oh well. We get duplicated info in single + album threads anyways, so not a big deal.

[Kurt]

Thanks for the summary, Libra - I had forgotten my plans to do that myself.

First of all, I'm still sort of undecided about adding more News & Non-Discussion subforums for the genre forums - on one hand, I think it'd split things up especially if we had them in say, Pop and HAC/AC, but on the other, I keep seeing general discussion threads pop up in the Pop forum that would fit well in such a subforum. I agree with your implication that maybe considering them for only larger forums - e.g. pop, urban/rhythmic, and rock - might work best.

Yeah, Glove Slap's idea was what I was thinking too for producer/songwriter threads; so for example, Jamie Scott gets a thread in the new forum to focus on his writing for One Direction and the like, plus his artist thread to discuss his own solo album.

I think splitting GMN might be the best solution too, but I'll think on it more and come back to it later.

[43dudleyvillas]

Thanks Libra for the summary, and for nudging us along here. There seems to be widespread agreement at least about standalone Industry News & Producer/Songwriter subfora, so that's something we can hopefully get moving on after, maybe, a week more of discussion on how?

Re: Songwriters/producers/sessions players who are themselves performing artists, I'll fourth Glove Slap's suggestion after Libra and Kurt. The idea would be for the Behind The Scenes/Music discussion to focus on their work in music creation. josh is probably right about some overlap in info happening in such cases, but I think that's OK because the information would likely be discussed in different ways in the different sections of the board.

Kurt's idea that the General News/Non-Singles Discussion forums might be best suited for the largest sections (CHR/Pop, Urban/Rhythmic, and Rock in addition to Country) makes sense to me.

I'm still undecided on where the new forums should be located and would welcome more debate/discussion on that point. I definitely do think that if the Industry News subforum is to remain in the General Music News section, that section should be split a la the General Artist Discussion section instead of making Industry News a subforum.

Jan 2, 2015 0:17:46 GMT -5 @spiritanimal said:

GROUNDBREAKING INTERVIEW

There should be a PMA for that! [To the interviewer, of course.]

[Glove Slap]

So happy to see that people are on board with this! :)

Regarding the overlap between some producers who also release material as recording acts, my logic on it is as follows.

The Artists section, aside for when it is for someone who is very new, is made of threads that center around a particular 'era' or project. And even when it is someone new, it's ultimately meant to lead to an LP release. They just double as discussions for that act because their main focus is generally that project; whatever work they do is expected to ultimately tie into that for the most part. Meanwhile, producers are generally much more prolific and have a more constant stream of material coming out attached to their name in some capacity. Think of Ryan Tedder and the frequency with which work with his name comes out, or Pharrell, or DJ Mustard and so on. It's be more freeform to match up better with that kind of varied release schedule. Sometimes there are even tracks that leak that were done with a certain producer where none of that producers work made the LP for the recording act.

At the same time, it could lead people to discover new artists, especially acts who may not be major US acts, but who work with the same producers.

[Libra]

We definitely could use some more input on the best way to implement the new forums (i.e. where they should be put).

If nothing else, we could put the matter to votes, though with two forums to consider, each having multiple suggestions...well, since one idea involves both proposed forums, that complicates this a bit.

[43dudleyvillas]

Let me just say that my main concern with respect to the placement of the Producers/Songwriters forum is early traffic. Is it going to get lost in the shuffle if placed in the General Artist Discussion section, which I otherwise think is the most logical place to put it? Is it more likely to be more convenient to the type of posters who are likely to be interested in behind-the-scenes music discussion if it is placed alongside an Industry News subforum in a new Behind The Scenes section?

If I sound less "concerned" about traffic to an Industry News subforum (wherever it is), that's because I feel like we already have a sense that it will flourish no matter where it lands, partially because we already have seen good discussions in General Music News, and partially because there are a bunch of hot topics that we know would attract a lot of discussion. The music personnel discussion is by definition more diffuse, and so I feel like the "start up" period might be slower.

[Deleted]

I'm so pumped for this.

I absolutely love seeing behind the scenes stuff and seeing the inner workings of the industry.
A lot of times I check out these kinds of things about any artist, whether I'm a fan or not, because I find it so interesting in a general sense.

The relationships between artists & songwriters interests me a great deal as well, but especially if an artist and specific songwriter have worked together frequently.

[K.]

I like both of these ideas a lot. I'm sorry, I haven't had time to read through all of the comments yet, but here are my rough thoughts/votes.

1. I like the idea of changing the "General Music News & Chart Discussion" board to be just "Chart Discussion" (that seems to be what it is, mostly, anyway), and then adding a new board for "Industry News & Discussion." I think those two subjects are distinct enough to warrant separate boards. I really really really like the idea of having a board to discuss the business side of the music industry, legal issues, mergers, job openings, etc.  I'm not crazy about the name "Behind the Scenes," especially if it's a sub-board with no description, just because I think it's not particularly clear what that covers, but I'm fine with it if that's what others want.

2. I think the best place for a "Producers/Songwriters"-type board would be as a sub-board of the "Artist Discussion" board.  I don't think it would get lost, but we could also move it if it does.  I think discussion of producers and other creative types belongs with discussion of artists rather than with the business side of things and a new industry board.  As for crossover, I think it's fine, for example, for Timbaland to get a thread in the PSO board for discussion of his work for others, and a thread in the K-Z board for his solo projects.

Sorry for being late to the party. Again, I really like both ideas.

[Libra]

...Okay. So, it's been a week and a half.

I'm all for us launching these forums, as soon as we can. My only concern is that we seem to be split on where they should go. Should we take a vote on where to put these, or should we pick among the choices and go with it?

Tagging everyone else who has commented, so far: Glove Slap Devil Marlena Nylund Linnethia Monique surfy Green Baron Kurt hitseeker. Chelsea Press 2 14887fan someguy 43dudleyvillas @touch @spiritanimal josh @carrieflattsfan K.

Also, if you're reading this and haven't weighed in yet - go for it! :)