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Post by After Minutes on Aug 5, 2020 10:45:07 GMT -5
I hate sales as much as the next guy, but really, would limiting sales to 1 make sense when you don't have a cap on streams? Wouldn't you have to create an arbitrary system that calculates how many streams an individual person generated then?
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Post by dremolus - solarpunk on Aug 5, 2020 10:45:53 GMT -5
This 'underperformance conversation' btw is the exact same argument/conversation people had about The Weeknd when he announced his return. Y'all never learn do you?
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Aug 5, 2020 10:46:52 GMT -5
I agree . Itβs painful to listen too . Sheβs way too young to constantly mss make this type of music omg first off: it's still in the Top 10 on Spotify and has a good radio deal. It was also just released FIVE DAYS AGO, and she only got big last year so apologize if she doesn't have the clout veterans have. Maybe wait a few more weeks/months before labeling something as a flop. This is stan-level cringey Also: "majority of folks donβt want to constantly listen to depressed music" the biggest debut of the year so far was 'folklore' and that album isn't exactly chipper Itβs odd to me that a song has to be upbeat or dancy to not be considered depressed. I wouldnβt say folklore is in any way depressing or depressed unless someone is only capable of two emotions. |
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Post by After Minutes on Aug 5, 2020 10:48:30 GMT -5
omg first off: it's still in the Top 10 on Spotify and has a good radio deal. It was also just released FIVE DAYS AGO, and she only got big last year so apologize if she doesn't have the clout veterans have. Maybe wait a few more weeks/months before labeling something as a flop. This is stan-level cringey Also: "majority of folks donβt want to constantly listen to depressed music" the biggest debut of the year so far was 'folklore' and that album isn't exactly chipper Itβs odd to me that a song has to be upbeat or dancy to not be considered depressed. I wouldnβt say folklore is in any way depressing or depressed unless someone is only capable of two emotions. Some folks here would probably jam Pumped Up Kicks on their kids' birthday parties just because of how cheery it sounds |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Aug 5, 2020 10:50:50 GMT -5
I hate sales as much as the next guy, but really, would limiting sales to 1 make sense when you don't have a cap on streams? Wouldn't you have to create an arbitrary system that calculates how many streams an individual person generated then? Personally I think streams should be limited by person/account too. Rather than number of times streamed, make it number of people streaming that song each week. Create tiers if need be to separate the curiosity streamers from those who purposely replay a song, but keep it by person rather than by times played. |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Aug 5, 2020 10:51:38 GMT -5
Itβs odd to me that a song has to be upbeat or dancy to not be considered depressed. I wouldnβt say folklore is in any way depressing or depressed unless someone is only capable of two emotions. Some folks here would probably jam Pumped Up Kicks on their kids' birthday parties just because of how cheery it sounds Even then. Folk music isnβt depressing. Itβs calm, relaxing, maybe sad, but not depressing. |
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strongerq
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Post by strongerq on Aug 5, 2020 10:54:10 GMT -5
^^There already are algorithms that limit how many streams count from user/IP. But it varies from platform to platform. That is why Spotify/AM have "normal" numbers and on YouTube you have songs that get 50 million streams in 24 hours.
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Post by wavey. on Aug 5, 2020 10:56:10 GMT -5
Imo, it's too early to judge Ms. Billie's performance.
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Post by After Minutes on Aug 5, 2020 10:57:48 GMT -5
I hate sales as much as the next guy, but really, would limiting sales to 1 make sense when you don't have a cap on streams? Wouldn't you have to create an arbitrary system that calculates how many streams an individual person generated then? Personally I think streams should be limited by person/account too. Rather than number of times streamed, make it number of people streaming that song each week. Create tiers if need be to separate the curiosity streamers from those who purposely replay a song, but keep it by person rather than by times played. In general I disagree, though I do think that songs that are only streamed because they're on an album/they freshly dropped shouldn't really have that edge, because when you look at their longevity, well, it paints a pretty surprising picture. For God's sake, when Scorpion dropped, the songs that crossed 4 mln US streams were Nonstop... and Survival, Emotionless, Elevate plus 8 Out of 10. |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Aug 5, 2020 11:05:27 GMT -5
Personally I think streams should be limited by person/account too. Rather than number of times streamed, make it number of people streaming that song each week. Create tiers if need be to separate the curiosity streamers from those who purposely replay a song, but keep it by person rather than by times played. In general I disagree, though I do think that songs that are only streamed because they're on an album/they freshly dropped shouldn't really have that edge, because when you look at their longevity, well, it paints a pretty surprising picture. For God's sake, when Scorpion dropped, the songs that crossed 4 mln US streams were Nonstop... and Survival, Emotionless, Elevate plus 8 Out of 10. What does longevity have to do with a song's performance in a single-week period though? But with that said, your post does remind me that overall stream totals are a thing so measuring streaming charts by people played rather than total number of streams might have an impact on that. My reasoning behind my suggestions for how the chart should be measured is that it's harder to manipulate* and puts music listeners on equal playing field. *I'm sure it could be manipulated somehow that would be widely used and accepted. |
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strongerq
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Post by strongerq on Aug 5, 2020 11:06:53 GMT -5
Personally I think streams should be limited by person/account too. Rather than number of times streamed, make it number of people streaming that song each week. Create tiers if need be to separate the curiosity streamers from those who purposely replay a song, but keep it by person rather than by times played. In general I disagree, though I do think that songs that are only streamed because they're on an album/they freshly dropped shouldn't really have that edge, because when you look at their longevity, well, it paints a pretty surprising picture. For God's sake, when Scorpion dropped, the songs that crossed 4 mln US streams were Nonstop... and Survival, Emotionless, Elevate plus 8 Out of 10. But people streamed Nonstop & Survival on 29th June 2018. You can't change that fact. Both songs were listened by more users than In My Feelings/Nice For What that day. Why ?
-Because they are the first songs on the album. Where do you start streaming an album from the first or from the last track. Some users listen to 3/4 songs and turned the album off. So they listened to the first tracks and not the middle tracks.
You are suggesting to devalue streams of opening tracks. Why? Any good reason? Because they are the most streamed tracks from every album the first day.
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Post by After Minutes on Aug 5, 2020 11:11:49 GMT -5
In general I disagree, though I do think that songs that are only streamed because they're on an album/they freshly dropped shouldn't really have that edge, because when you look at their longevity, well, it paints a pretty surprising picture. For God's sake, when Scorpion dropped, the songs that crossed 4 mln US streams were Nonstop... and Survival, Emotionless, Elevate plus 8 Out of 10. But people streamed Nonstop & Survival on 29th June 2018. You can't change that fact. Both songs were listened by more users than In My Feelings/Nice For What that day. Why ?
-Because they are the first songs on the album. Where do you start streaming an album from the first or from the last track. Some users listen to 3/4 songs and turned the album off. So they listened to the first tracks and not the middle tracks.
You are suggesting to devalue streams of opening tracks. Why? Any good reason? Because they are the most streamed tracks from every album the first day.
my bad, I meant that I agree in general, but counting streams individually would give an unfair advantage to songs like Emotionless or 8 out of 10. Yeah, many people stream them, but because they're interested in the album, not exactly the songs themselves, and I don't really think that even tiers would make it fair. Perhaps though something like longevity throughout the week could be used to flatten it out. |
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shaz196
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Post by shaz196 on Aug 5, 2020 11:13:55 GMT -5
I don't think sales should be limited to 1 per card, but streaming and sales aren't consumed in the same way. Someone will stream a song 10-20 times in a week whereas that same person would buy that song once and listen to the downloaded file 10-20 times in a week. The only scenario in which someone would naturally buy a song multiple times in a week is if it has various alternative versions or if it's available on collectible physicals like CD, vinyl, cassette, etc.
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Choco
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Post by Choco on Aug 5, 2020 11:14:10 GMT -5
I don't know how it should be handled but I find album bombs troubling in that was the song really popular? Or was it just the album hype?
Like this week with Taylor, was "hoax" really the 71st most popular track in the country? Or was it just part of the biggest album debut of the year?
I think part of that impact should be limited to the BB200 only, just like how album sales don't impact the Hot 100, but I can't think of any fair way to limit said impact.
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strongerq
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Post by strongerq on Aug 5, 2020 11:14:12 GMT -5
What does longevity have to do with a song's performance in a single-week period though? But with that said, your post does remind me that overall stream totals are a thing so measuring streaming charts by people played rather than total number of streams might have an impact on that. My reasoning behind my suggestions for how the chart should be measured is that it's harder to manipulate* and puts music listeners on equal playing field. *I'm sure it could be manipulated somehow that would be widely used and accepted. I am not sure i understood you correctly. Do you suggest we have number of users that have streamed the song in a day/week instead of number of times the song has beeen streamed in a day/week ?
It is bad idea. Why? Take a look at Spotify monthly listeners. It is based on how many users have listened atleast 1 song in the last 28 days. You have 2 artists with 30M listeners, Artist A's songs have been streamed 1B times in the last month. Artist B's (Tones and I) songs have been streamed 400K times. I think you see what is the downside.
Similar thing with songs: People listening to a song once in a week vs people listening to a song 10 times a week, but the result is the same 1 listener.
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strongerq
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Post by strongerq on Aug 5, 2020 11:18:55 GMT -5
I don't know how it should be handled but I find album bombs troubling in that was the song really popular? Or was it just the album hype? Like this week with Taylor, was "hoax" really the 71st most popular track in the country? Or was it just part of the biggest album debut of the year? I think part of that impact should be limited to the BB200 only, just like how album sales don't impact the Hot 100, but I can't think of any fair way to limit said impact. BUT the main thing is 'hoax' was the 71st most popular song that week. It doesn't matter weather people streamed it because it was on a massive album/because it was added to a movie soundtrack/because the artist died.
The point is the song was consumed (streams/sales).
It was the 71st song that week. The why part you know it. but it doesn't matter. Billboard tracks what is popular not why is it popular.
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Choco
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Post by Choco on Aug 5, 2020 11:21:26 GMT -5
I don't know how it should be handled but I find album bombs troubling in that was the song really popular? Or was it just the album hype? Like this week with Taylor, was "hoax" really the 71st most popular track in the country? Or was it just part of the biggest album debut of the year? I think part of that impact should be limited to the BB200 only, just like how album sales don't impact the Hot 100, but I can't think of any fair way to limit said impact. BUT the main thing is 'hoax' was the 71st most popular song that week. It doesn't matter weather people streamed it because it was on a massive album/because it was added to a movie soundtrack/because the artist died. The point is the song was consumed (streams/sales). It was the 71st song that week. The why part you know it. but it doesn't matter. Billboard tracks what is popular not why is it popular.
But it wasn't really 71st. It was probably top 40 once you add the 615k copies it sold as part of the album. Or are those consumptions not relevant? If the streams can impact both charts I don't see why sales shouldn't. |
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Post by iHype. on Aug 5, 2020 11:23:03 GMT -5
I hate sales as much as the next guy, but really, would limiting sales to 1 make sense when you don't have a cap on streams? Wouldn't you have to create an arbitrary system that calculates how many streams an individual person generated then? What is the logic for one person needing 4 copies of a file on their computer? It is literally intended specifically to inflate a chart position. Someone listening to a song various times can mean... they perhaps just like the song and are actually consuming it. |
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Post by dremolus - solarpunk on Aug 5, 2020 11:28:43 GMT -5
BUT the main thing is 'hoax' was the 71st most popular song that week. It doesn't matter weather people streamed it because it was on a massive album/because it was added to a movie soundtrack/because the artist died. The point is the song was consumed (streams/sales). It was the 71st song that week. The why part you know it. but it doesn't matter. Billboard tracks what is popular not why is it popular.
But it wasn't really 71st. It was probably top 40 once you add the 615k copies it sold as part of the album. Or are those consumptions not relevant? If the streams can impact both charts I don't see why sales shouldn't. Because compared to radio and streaming, sales is the least listened to avenue. Because of streaming, charting songs is no longer about seeing which song made the most money in a week. Plus if sales were ranked higher or equal to streaming, I'd think that'd be dishonest for a chart trying to well, chart what are the most popular songs in the country. Not to mention, most songs that are the most bought in a given week tend not to even be popular thanks to stans mass-buying singles |
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Post by shayonce on Aug 5, 2020 11:28:46 GMT -5
fun fact. UK OCC chart only count 10 plays per day from 1 account for a song.
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strongerq
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Post by strongerq on Aug 5, 2020 11:29:33 GMT -5
BUT the main thing is 'hoax' was the 71st most popular song that week. It doesn't matter weather people streamed it because it was on a massive album/because it was added to a movie soundtrack/because the artist died. The point is the song was consumed (streams/sales). It was the 71st song that week. The why part you know it. but it doesn't matter. Billboard tracks what is popular not why is it popular.
But it wasn't really 71st. It was probably top 40 once you add the 615k copies it sold as part of the album. Or are those consumptions not relevant? If the streams can impact both charts I don't see why sales shouldn't. I mussunderstood you, I thought you meant to say it shouldn't have been on The Hot 100 in the first place. That the song only got its streams because it was part of the album (which is true to a dregree).
Ok, now that i know what you mean: It is simple, there is no real way to incorporate album sales in Hot 100. You can't know weather the user bought the album only for 'cardigan' & 'exile' or for all of the songs. You have examples like 'MC Hammer please don't hurt em' which sold mostly because of 1 song. You can't just divide the album sales with number of songs and add it to each song.
Yeah i agree that the song was more popular that week that the #50 song, but there is no way to incorporate album sales. So that is why i wrote it was 71st song (based on BB formula of measuring popularity).
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Post by kierz7 on Aug 5, 2020 11:35:48 GMT -5
What is βMove Ya Hipsβ?
Another Minaj song that will debut high in the first week due to her fans mass-purchasing multiple units just for it to crash the following week?
Billboard honestly needs to deal with this also!
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Post by rainygirl on Aug 5, 2020 11:38:47 GMT -5
Itβs odd to me that a song has to be upbeat or dancy to not be considered depressed. I wouldnβt say folklore is in any way depressing or depressed unless someone is only capable of two emotions. Some folks here would probably jam Pumped Up Kicks on their kids' birthday parties just because of how cheery it sounds youβre intentionally ignoring my main point . Yes folklore is depressing but Taylor does a variety of songs , including upbeat ones . Billie seems stuck and thatβs ok. But geez , Iβm allowed to not like it , am I not ? π |
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shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Aug 5, 2020 11:42:55 GMT -5
What is the logic for one person needing 4 copies of a file on their computer? It is literally intended specifically to inflate a chart position. Someone listening to a song various times can mean... they perhaps just like the song and are actually consuming it. and 4 is.. low number. they're buying 4 at nicki shop, 4 at asap shop, 4 at google, 4 at amazon, 1 itunes = 17 and also clean version. |
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shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Aug 5, 2020 11:47:32 GMT -5
the dedication.
I'm surprised they didn't discount this song and release some edit/remix version. lol
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Post by Baby Yoda Hot100Fan on Aug 5, 2020 11:48:32 GMT -5
If I didn't care for Nicki before Say So, now the Barbz have really done it ...
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tuna
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Post by tuna on Aug 5, 2020 11:52:52 GMT -5
i wouldn't be surprised if Ferg and MadeinTYO met up before making the song and one of them was just like "hey i know a real easy way to make some quick money"
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rainygirl
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Post by rainygirl on Aug 5, 2020 12:13:35 GMT -5
the dedication. I'm surprised they didn't discount this song and release some edit/remix version. lol this is disturbing and hysterical all at the same time . Itβs like election fraud , Billboard edition π |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Aug 5, 2020 12:28:07 GMT -5
What does longevity have to do with a song's performance in a single-week period though? But with that said, your post does remind me that overall stream totals are a thing so measuring streaming charts by people played rather than total number of streams might have an impact on that. My reasoning behind my suggestions for how the chart should be measured is that it's harder to manipulate* and puts music listeners on equal playing field. *I'm sure it could be manipulated somehow that would be widely used and accepted. I am not sure i understood you correctly. Do you suggest we have number of users that have streamed the song in a day/week instead of number of times the song has beeen streamed in a day/week ? It is bad idea. Why? Take a look at Spotify monthly listeners. It is based on how many users have listened atleast 1 song in the last 28 days. You have 2 artists with 30M listeners, Artist A's songs have been streamed 1B times in the last month. Artist B's (Tones and I) songs have been streamed 400K times. I think you see what is the downside.
Similar thing with songs: People listening to a song once in a week vs people listening to a song 10 times a week, but the result is the same 1 listener.
Hence my suggestion with using a tiered approach. Maybe it isn't one play a week but one play a day, so the most a person can contribute to a song's total is 7 plays for the week. I don't know. Obviously my suggestion isn't the final conclusion to the idea, but it was a starting point that might help even out what I think has become a problem with measuring a song's popularity. If you have 2 artists with 30M listeners but artist A has been streamed more times but heard by the same number of listeners, is Artist A actually more popular? Or do they just have more stans willing to stream their music endlessly? |
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Post by campbellssoup on Aug 5, 2020 12:32:42 GMT -5
All I can say about these massive front loaded songs week after week is that it would be really nice if Billboard released monthly charts or quarterly charts as well. It would paint a better picture of how popular songs are compared to each other.
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