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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Aug 5, 2020 12:41:29 GMT -5
I don't know how it should be handled but I find album bombs troubling in that was the song really popular? Or was it just the album hype? Like this week with Taylor, was "hoax" really the 71st most popular track in the country? Or was it just part of the biggest album debut of the year? I think part of that impact should be limited to the BB200 only, just like how album sales don't impact the Hot 100, but I can't think of any fair way to limit said impact. It depends on how you look at Billboard's purpose with the Hot 100. Is its job to measure popularity or is it to measure general success? I think they aim for popularity (at least from an angle that makes sense for labels) but they also have a process and a formula to measure it, so according to their formula, hoax was the 71st biggest song of the week. Was it the most popular? Depends on how you think popularity should be measured - and that's the challenge we come to in these discussions I think, and why many of us have issue with how Billboard measures the chart. Because while hoax may not be the 71st biggest song of the week, other album tracks from Taylor's album did generate interest and were momentarily 'popular' but if we removed all album tracks, those ones wouldn't be included either. |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Aug 5, 2020 12:45:17 GMT -5
BUT the main thing is 'hoax' was the 71st most popular song that week. It doesn't matter weather people streamed it because it was on a massive album/because it was added to a movie soundtrack/because the artist died. The point is the song was consumed (streams/sales). It was the 71st song that week. The why part you know it. but it doesn't matter. Billboard tracks what is popular not why is it popular.
But it wasn't really 71st. It was probably top 40 once you add the 615k copies it sold as part of the album. Or are those consumptions not relevant? If the streams can impact both charts I don't see why sales shouldn't. Exactly! This is an issue I'll hammer until I can't hammer no more. Ok, now that i know what you mean: It is simple, there is no real way to incorporate album sales in Hot 100. You can't know weather the user bought the album only for 'cardigan' & 'exile' or for all of the songs. You have examples like 'MC Hammer please don't hurt em' which sold mostly because of 1 song. You can't just divide the album sales with number of songs and add it to each song. But you also said: It was the 71st song that week. The why part you know it. but it doesn't matter. Billboard tracks what is popular not why is it popular.So shouldn't it not matter why a person buys an album? The album sales can contribute equally to each of its tracks for the Hot 100. |
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shaz196
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Post by shaz196 on Aug 5, 2020 12:48:02 GMT -5
Don't understand this argument. An albumβs streaming week is compromised of each individual songs streaming week whereas album sales are album sales and track sales are track sales.
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Aug 5, 2020 13:03:26 GMT -5
I had to google what MOVE YA HIPS is...I'm so sick of bundles. Itβs not even because bundles, itβs because the same group of Barbz keep purchasing 4 copies per purchase from artists websites. Itβs a clear loophole Billboard has to remove also. The artist site is even set up to let them buy a max of 4 copies: shop.asapferg.com/product/Y4DDAS08/move-ya-hips-feat-nicki-minaj-madeintyo-digital-single-download?cp=nullOn iTunes you canβt purchase 4 copies of the same song. Also there is no need to buy 4 copies of one song DIGITALLY, thereβs literally no logic behind it. Digital purchases should be limited to 1 copy counting. the only exceptions I can think of are remixes and clean versions, which is fair imo for people to download in addition to the original track. it makes no sense to count multiple downloads -- but they would need to evaluate streams in the same way if they limited downloads to 1 per IP address or 1 per credit card or something. |
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Enigma.
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Post by Enigma. on Aug 5, 2020 13:37:17 GMT -5
Move Ya Hips' streams are so miserably low that it needs at least 200k to debut at #1.
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rainygirl
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Post by rainygirl on Aug 5, 2020 13:45:24 GMT -5
Move Ya Hips' streams are so miserably low that it needs at least 200k to debut at #1. not impossible if they drop 17 remixes today π€ͺ |
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owenlovesmusic
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Post by owenlovesmusic on Aug 5, 2020 13:50:17 GMT -5
Wow good for them tho. Nicki has a rly supportive fan base lmao
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Enigma.
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Post by Enigma. on Aug 5, 2020 13:58:00 GMT -5
I'm kinda here for that 1 - 89 - out chart run though.
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wavey.
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Post by wavey. on Aug 5, 2020 14:01:35 GMT -5
Funny, but not this time.
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thelegends
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Post by thelegends on Aug 5, 2020 14:01:47 GMT -5
Billieβs new song flopped. Maybe sheβll finally realize that the majority of folks donβt want to constantly listen to depressed music. I agree . Itβs painful to listen too . Sheβs way too young to constantly mss make this type of music I feel that if she continues to make this type of music, her music will consume her in an ugly way. She will never recover out of that slump and worst case scenario, might even sadly commit suicide. Just look at XXXTentacion and Juice WRLD and what happened to them once they got popular. |
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thelegends
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Post by thelegends on Aug 5, 2020 14:02:52 GMT -5
I'm kinda here for that 1 - 89 - out chart run though. TROLLZ wasnβt enough. Time to outdo it. In all seriousness, this will debut at #50 or something like that. |
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m450n
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Post by m450n on Aug 5, 2020 14:04:58 GMT -5
omg first off: it's still in the Top 10 on Spotify and has a good radio deal. It was also just released FIVE DAYS AGO, and she only got big last year so apologize if she doesn't have the clout veterans have. Maybe wait a few more weeks/months before labeling something as a flop. This is stan-level cringey Also: "majority of folks donβt want to constantly listen to depressed music" the biggest debut of the year so far was 'folklore' and that album isn't exactly chipper The song went from doing 2M streams to 900k in 5 days... the longevity isnβt promising. Itβs also free falling on AM. Taylorβs album isnβt exactly a mega success either. Apart from its debut week, itβs doing ok. Taylor still has 3 songs in the top 10 on Spotify US after 13 days. I think that's pretty successful for a female pop artist in the US. |
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Myth X
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Post by Myth X on Aug 5, 2020 14:08:16 GMT -5
I think sim is overestimating Move Ya hips sales just because TROLLZ sold almost 120k.
80k seems too high
The case of TROLLZ was different because she was close to debut at #1, the song had massive youtube streams and it did much better on Apple/Spotify than Move ya hips
I know Barbz like to waste money on trash but 80k sales for this when it doesn't have any chance to be #1?
Does this mean that every song Nicki Minaj releases will debut in the top 10? Are the Barbz that rich?
Also I don't think Watermelon Sugar is doing 50k
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Aug 5, 2020 14:14:06 GMT -5
The way people worried about streaming messing up the charts only for sales to be causing loads of fraudulence/debates every other week.
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Enigma.
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Post by Enigma. on Aug 5, 2020 14:15:06 GMT -5
It's hilarious that these songs Barbz support are not even her own singles. They should empty their bank accounts whenever her next lead occurs, not for 6ix9ine or ASAP Ferg.
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m450n
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Post by m450n on Aug 5, 2020 14:19:01 GMT -5
I agree . Itβs painful to listen too . Sheβs way too young to constantly mss make this type of music I feel that if she continues to make this type of music, her music will consume her in an ugly way. She will never recover out of that slump and worst case scenario, might even sadly commit suicide. Just look at XXXTentacion and Juice WRLD and what happened to them once they got popular. I agree with the part where you say if she keeps making music like this she will get in some kind of slump. The reason why her album was so awesome was because it was full of uptempo songs with a dark aesthetic, now she's releasing down-tempo songs with just a sad aesthetic. I actually enjoyed everything i wanted because i felt like it was different than the album. Also I think it's a really bad management tactic to send this song to radio. |
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strongerq
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Post by strongerq on Aug 5, 2020 14:24:03 GMT -5
Ok, now that i know what you mean: It is simple, there is no real way to incorporate album sales in Hot 100. You can't know weather the user bought the album only for 'cardigan' & 'exile' or for all of the songs. You have examples like 'MC Hammer please don't hurt em' which sold mostly because of 1 song. You can't just divide the album sales with number of songs and add it to each song. But you also said: It was the 71st song that week. The why part you know it. but it doesn't matter. Billboard tracks what is popular not why is it popular.So shouldn't it not matter why a person buys an album? The album sales can contribute equally to each of its tracks for the Hot 100. Ok, what i meant with the part you bolded: I thought Choco meant 'hoax' shouldn't have even charted on the Hot 100. That it only got its 10M streams (or whatever) because it was part of a big album, so when you streamed the other songs you had to stream it to. I still stand by the bolded part. Now an example: 100% of people who bought the album 'folklore' cared about 'cardigan', 95% cared about 'exile' and only 40% people cared about 'hoax'. Billboard tracks what is popular. 'hoax' WAS NOT popular. Or not as popular as 'cardigan'. So you can't just give 100 points to every song on the album.
I agree that when '25' dropped every song was top 40 (probably higher) in terms of popularity, but how popular was each one? You can;t give the same amount of points to 'Hello' and 'I Miss You'. If you have a system that is "fair" regarding this i am all ears. Yeah i agree that the song was more popular that week that the #50 song, but there is no way to incorporate album sales. So that is why i wrote it was 71st song (based on BB formula of measuring popularity).
Anyways, this won't be a problem in the future (isn't really a big problem now). Who is selling albums nowadays ? This will be just another what-if from the past. What if YouTube was counted in 2010? What if we had streaming in the 80s? What if album sales counted for The Hot 100?  Regarding streaming: 10 people streaming a song once vs 10 people streaming a song 10 times. It is not the same in my book, nor it should EVER be. The second case won't result in 100 streams was my point. Spotyfy/AM... have algorithms that detect botting/fake streams. Obviousely they are not availabe to the public eye because they will be manipulated, people will find loopholes easily.
Example: Maybe the algorithm says: if you listen to a song 3 times withing an hour, no streams will be counted within the next 24 hours. So if i leave a song on loop 10 times, only 3 will count.
YouTube has an algorithm aswell, but it is bad (outdated) so that is why you can see 50 million+ views in 24 hours by kpop groups and more dedicated fanbases. Botting (leaving the song on a loop overnight) works to an extent on YouTube. Some views are filtered out, while other are counted as "legit". You don't have this kind of "botting" on Spotify.
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amid
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Post by amid on Aug 5, 2020 14:35:33 GMT -5
Wow Simon takes the record for the shortest retirement ever  I thought he just came back for the Taylor week but it looks like heβs back to normal. |
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amid
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Post by amid on Aug 5, 2020 14:39:50 GMT -5
I agree . Itβs painful to listen too . Sheβs way too young to constantly mss make this type of music I feel that if she continues to make this type of music, her music will consume her in an ugly way. She will never recover out of that slump and worst case scenario, might even sadly commit suicide. Just look at XXXTentacion and Juice WRLD and what happened to them once they got popular. This comparison makes no sense. Neither XXXTENTACION nor Juice Wrld committed suicide... |
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Myth X
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Post by Myth X on Aug 5, 2020 14:40:24 GMT -5
Wow Simon takes the record for the shortest retirement ever I thought he just came back for the Taylor week but it looks like heβs back to normal. It reminds me those rappers that say they are retiring only to drop something a year later. |
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thelegends
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Post by thelegends on Aug 5, 2020 15:05:23 GMT -5
I feel that if she continues to make this type of music, her music will consume her in an ugly way. She will never recover out of that slump and worst case scenario, might even sadly commit suicide. Just look at XXXTentacion and Juice WRLD and what happened to them once they got popular. This comparison makes no sense. Neither XXXTENTACION nor Juice Wrld committed suicide... Yeah that was a bad example. Juice WRLD has said in βWishing Wellβ that he took pills in order to get popular and that the pills have taken control of him, which makes it sadder knowing that he died of an overdose. Sometimes what makes you popular can kill you. |
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Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Aug 5, 2020 15:16:46 GMT -5
But you also said: So shouldn't it not matter why a person buys an album? The album sales can contribute equally to each of its tracks for the Hot 100. Ok, what i meant with the part you bolded: I thought Choco meant 'hoax' shouldn't have even charted on the Hot 100. That it only got its 10M streams (or whatever) because it was part of a big album, so when you streamed the other songs you had to stream it to. I still stand by the bolded part. Now an example: 100% of people who bought the album 'folklore' cared about 'cardigan', 95% cared about 'exile' and only 40% people cared about 'hoax'. Billboard tracks what is popular. 'hoax' WAS NOT popular. Or not as popular as 'cardigan'. So you can't just give 100 points to every song on the album.
I agree that when '25' dropped every song was top 40 (probably higher) in terms of popularity, but how popular was each one? You can;t give the same amount of points to 'Hello' and 'I Miss You'. If you have a system that is "fair" regarding this i am all ears. Yeah but in both these examples, cardigan would already have extra points anyway, as would Hello. They would both just have more points as a result of the album sales. |
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rainygirl
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Post by rainygirl on Aug 5, 2020 15:27:08 GMT -5
Wow Simon takes the record for the shortest retirement ever Β I thought he just came back for the Taylor week but it looks like heβs back to normal.Β It reminds me those rappers that say they are retiring only to drop something a year later. with poor streaming and no video , how is Move ya Hips projected to enter at 5 or higher??? Seems sales still trump everything else |
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strongerq
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Post by strongerq on Aug 5, 2020 15:36:36 GMT -5
So 'Move Ya Hips' is challenging for biggest drop from #5 (to 60), #4 (to 68), #3 (to 26), #2 (to 23). This song will break records no matter where it lands first week. |
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Au$tin
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Post by Au$tin on Aug 5, 2020 15:37:43 GMT -5
Excuse me, but the idea that Billie Eilish would commit suicide because she keeps making songs lile "my future" is beyond fucking stupid. She could make the next "Tik Tok" or "Uptown Funk" and it wouldn't change her mental state, which, as far as we know, is perfectly healthy. Music does not create mental illness. Besides, did any of you actually listen to the lyrics of "my future"? It's positive! It's literally about how she is becoming a happier person and how excited she is to keep going. Slow tempos aren't automatically sad and "depressing."
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iamsorare
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Post by iamsorare on Aug 5, 2020 16:05:45 GMT -5
It's hilarious that these songs Barbz support are not even her own singles. They should empty their bank accounts whenever her next lead occurs, not for 6ix9ine or ASAP Ferg. trollz was her single too.. she was credited as the lead artist..not feature |
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rainygirl
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Post by rainygirl on Aug 5, 2020 16:12:03 GMT -5
It's hilarious that these songs Barbz support are not even her own singles. They should empty their bank accounts whenever her next lead occurs, not for 6ix9ine or ASAP Ferg. trollz was her single too.. she was credited as the lead artist..not feature hot 100 number ones are meaningless now . These fans created multiple iTunes accounts , use multiple cards etc to buy as many as maybe 50 copies . Reading those tweets makes me realize number ones are now a manipulation game |
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iamsorare
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Post by iamsorare on Aug 5, 2020 16:16:48 GMT -5
trollz was her single too.. she was credited as the lead artist..not feature hot 100 number ones are meaningless now . These fans created multiple iTunes accounts , use multiple cards etc to buy as many as maybe 50 copies . Reading those tweets makes me realize number ones are now a manipulation game why so mad if someone wants to buy multiple copies to help their fave? The same happens with streaming.anyone can have a song on replay and it will count on hot 100.. the same with album copies..taylor and her multiple editions of the album was an example the last week.I'm sure fans bought many copies |
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Au$tin
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Post by Au$tin on Aug 5, 2020 16:25:20 GMT -5
"Everyone's doing it" isn't a good excuse. It doesn't matter which fanbase is doing it, it's manipulation of the system and it makes the chart meaningless. I'm well aware the extensive history of chart manipulation. That doesn't mean I still can't be mad about it. Especially when it's becoming increasingly more ridiculous.
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Post by After Minutes on Aug 5, 2020 16:27:46 GMT -5
Yeah but My Future isn't exactly that dark, it is a really hopeful song, and probalby the brightest thing she's ever released.
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