Billboard Hot 100: 09/19/2020

[iHype.]

Sept 15, 2020 3:25:06 GMT -5 Enigma. said:

Will the new rule REALLY have an effect though.. The Box having 100m views after all these months and being the biggest hit of the year regardless isn't really remarkable.

Obviously a case by case basis.

Always Remember Us this Way has an unofficial video with 178 million views. That’s almost as much as the actual label uploaded music video. 

[Ｓｏｕｎｄｃｌ🕤ｃｋ]

this video has 834 million views

also, Senorita's 9 or 10 combined videos have more than 500 million views.

[Music Fan]

I'm assuming these videos are now going to be flagged by Youtube (as they already are) but instead of the copyright holder (label) allowing them to stay on and rake the profit, they'll just not allow the video to stay on as is. So, I don't think we'll be seeing too many of these non-label videos anymore. I don't think it'll be too huge of a problem in the long run to have people go to the official source through Youtube.

[kimberly]

I'm guessing majority of the lyric videos and fan upload views are from non-English speaking world, though I don't know the numbers. Does anyone have any reference as to how much of those "The Box" or "Always Remember Us This Way" views would have come from the US?

[Naos]

Sept 15, 2020 11:50:34 GMT -5 kimberly said:

I'm guessing majority of the lyric videos and fan upload views are from non-English speaking world, though I don't know the numbers. 

Speaking of non-English, I'd expect a lot of people who only speak English got into non-English music through the translations, a very big thing for K-pop and J-pop, and I'd expect Latin music as well.

[strongerq]

Sept 15, 2020 11:50:34 GMT -5 kimberly said:

I'm guessing majority of the lyric videos and fan upload views are from non-English speaking world, though I don't know the numbers. Does anyone have any reference as to how much of those "The Box" or "Always Remember Us This Way" views would have come from the US?

You would have to go week by week basis. But here is WAP from last week.

The "Top Songs" chart includes UGC, and "Top Muisc Videos" is every video separately. See this:

Top Songs

Top Music Videos

Total: 11.67M      On the Cardi B channel here are 2 additional videos (Lyric and Radio Edit) but they aren't getting much views. Almost 50% of the views are from unofficial channels this is USA only.

Among the 100 most viewed videos at #34 you have WAP Lyrics uploaded by "7clouds"

[divasummer]

Sept 15, 2020 3:43:17 GMT -5 Naos said:

Yeah, I don't find excluding user content to make sense. It's still consumption of the song, and thus, popularity.

Does user content make the labels any money???
Because if it was about popularity people who BUY a song once but listen to the song 100 times, those 100 times should be worth something.
Isn't it still popular with that person who purchased it????? But their sale only counts for 1 week.
I find it odd that I have to listen to a song on youtube etc to make my listen count on week 2, 3 etc etc for a songs chart performance.
Most people that buy, buy from Itunes and they could track it but don't care because it's not making anyone more money anymore....
I know what I'm trying to say but awful at articulating it. lol

[kimberly]

^ I was thinking more in the pop mindset but I guess it makes sense for people to look up hiphop lyric videos even if English is their first language.

Naos — that definitely makes sense. I always have my subtitles on for the music videos BTS and BLACKPINK release and that's enough for me, but if I wanted to dig deeper into their discographies I'm sure fanmade lyric videos would really come in handy.

With K-pop, the "line distribution" videos are also a whole different genre of videos that get a lot of views (they're fancy lyric videos essentially).

[iHype.]

Sept 15, 2020 12:17:44 GMT -5 divasummer said:

Sept 15, 2020 3:43:17 GMT -5 Naos said:

Yeah, I don't find excluding user content to make sense. It's still consumption of the song, and thus, popularity.

Does user content make the labels any money???
Because if it was about popularity people who BUY a song once but listen to the song 100 times, those 100 times should be worth something.
Isn't it still popular with that person who purchased it????? But their sale only counts for 1 week.
I find it odd that I have to listen to a song on youtube etc to make my listen count on week 2, 3 etc etc for a songs chart performance.
Most people that buy, buy from Itunes and they could track it but don't care because it's not making anyone more money anymore....
I know what I'm trying to say but awful at articulating it. lol

The entire point of 1 sale counting as much 250 paid streams, 370 free streams, and 500 programmed streams in the Hot 100 formula is to make up for not being able to track the weekly listening consumption of sales. 98% of people who buy a song do not listen to it 250+ times, therefore on a consumption basis, sales are arguably overrepresented in terms of how much buyers actually listen/consume the music. However they did pay for the song, hence the higher individual count of sales also. 
 
The same goes for albums. 98% of people who buy an album do not listen to it 1,250 times total (equivalent of 1 sale via paid streams on Billboard 200) nor 3,750 times total (equivalent of 1 sale via free streams on Billboard 200). Counting a sale as the equivalent of thousands of streams, then continuing to count people who bought a song listening to it additionally would overweigh the consumption of sales. 

[divasummer]

Sept 15, 2020 12:22:37 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Sept 15, 2020 12:17:44 GMT -5 divasummer said:

Does user content make the labels any money???
Because if it was about popularity people who BUY a song once but listen to the song 100 times, those 100 times should be worth something.
Isn't it still popular with that person who purchased it????? But their sale only counts for 1 week.
I find it odd that I have to listen to a song on youtube etc to make my listen count on week 2, 3 etc etc for a songs chart performance.
Most people that buy, buy from Itunes and they could track it but don't care because it's not making anyone more money anymore....
I know what I'm trying to say but awful at articulating it. lol

The entire point of 1 sale counting as much 250 paid streams, 370 free streams, and 500 programmed streams in the Hot 100 formula is to make up for not being able to track the weekly listening consumption of sales. 98% of people who buy a song do not listen to it 250+ times, therefore on a consumption basis, sales are arguably overrepresented in terms of how much buyers actually listen/consume the music. However they did pay for the song, hence the higher individual count of sales also. 
 
The same goes for albums. 98% of people who buy an album do not listen to it 1,250 times total (equivalent of 1 sale via paid streams on Billboard 200) nor 3,750 times total (equivalent of 1 sale via free streams on Billboard 200). Counting a sale as the equivalent of thousands of streams, then continuing to count people who bought a song listening to it additionally would overweigh the consumption of sales. 

Thank you, I kind of didn't think of that... lol
However I still wish the plays would be counted even if it was at a low level??

[iHype.]

Sept 15, 2020 12:30:38 GMT -5 divasummer said:

Sept 15, 2020 12:22:37 GMT -5 iHype. said:

The entire point of 1 sale counting as much 250 paid streams, 370 free streams, and 500 programmed streams in the Hot 100 formula is to make up for not being able to track the weekly listening consumption of sales. 98% of people who buy a song do not listen to it 250+ times, therefore on a consumption basis, sales are arguably overrepresented in terms of how much buyers actually listen/consume the music. However they did pay for the song, hence the higher individual count of sales also. 
 
The same goes for albums. 98% of people who buy an album do not listen to it 1,250 times total (equivalent of 1 sale via paid streams on Billboard 200) nor 3,750 times total (equivalent of 1 sale via free streams on Billboard 200). Counting a sale as the equivalent of thousands of streams, then continuing to count people who bought a song listening to it additionally would overweigh the consumption of sales. 

Thank you, I kind of didn't think of that... lol
However I still wish the plays would be counted even if it was at a low level??

I think if they really wanted sales consumption to be represented over various weeks similar to streaming, then the easiest/logical solution would be to split the impact of a sale over several weeks. Ala 1 album sale, split over 10 weeks, would be that sale counting as 0.1 sale for an albums first 10 weeks each.

However, I don't think labels would agree/approve. This is because it would really make pure sales for artists dependent on them look worse publicity wise. If an album sells 200k first week, then that'd only be 20k sales units the first week instead. Sales-dependent songs/albums tend to peak high their first 1-2 weeks, so diminishing the impact for that period would just give them worse peaks overall in their run. 

[Gary]

I thought weights had more to do with revenue than to make for for not tracking consumption of a purchased album

1 equivalent album unit would equal whatever paid and free streams because that is how much streams it takes to generate 10 bucks.

Of course weights get tweaked a bit over time so no longer true but that is how I thought it started

[iHype.]

Sept 15, 2020 13:20:33 GMT -5 Gary said:

I thought weights had more to do with revenue than to make for for not tracking consumption of a purchased album

1 equivalent album unit would equal whatever paid and free streams because that is how much streams it takes to generate 10 bucks.

Of course weights get tweaked a bit over time so no longer true but that is how I thought it started

I think it has to do with both revenue and a sale being a final form that cannot be tracked overtime. Even if it they didn’t consider differences in revenue I doubt they would weigh 1 sale the same as 1 single stream. They have to consider people who buy music listen to it various times.

Also regarding Hot 100, the formula isn’t based specifically on revenue differences. Airplay is included and is there even a way they can track revenue an artist gets from that? It’s meant to track consumption foremost. With different weighs to differentiate how much interest the consumer put in consuming that song. Tuning into a radio station and hearing a song played versus actually going out and specifically obtaining a song on iTunes to consume are two different levels of interest in a song.

They also seem bent on counting songs/albums sold at different prices equally per purchase (unlike Germany for example) which to me shows they don’t view revenue as the single and final say to represent popularity.

[Gary]

Sept 15, 2020 14:07:12 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Sept 15, 2020 13:20:33 GMT -5 Gary said:

I thought weights had more to do with revenue than to make for for not tracking consumption of a purchased album

1 equivalent album unit would equal whatever paid and free streams because that is how much streams it takes to generate 10 bucks.

Of course weights get tweaked a bit over time so no longer true but that is how I thought it started

I think it has to do with both revenue and a sale being a final form that cannot be tracked overtime. Even if it they didn’t consider differences in revenue I doubt they would weigh 1 sale the same as 1 single stream. They have to consider people who buy music listen to it various times.

Also regarding Hot 100, the formula isn’t based specifically on revenue differences. Airplay is included and is there even a way they can track revenue an artist gets from that? It’s meant to track consumption foremost. With different weighs to differentiate how much interest the consumer put in consuming that song. Tuning into a radio station and hearing a song played versus actually going out and specifically obtaining a song on iTunes to consume are two different levels of interest in a song.

I don't have time to look it up but that is what I seem to remember. If I am wrong, that is fine.

The original weighting formula is/was based on revenue (hence the name "equivalent units")
Track equivalent and streaming equivalent I believe were in some more tied to revenue. 10 tracks at 99 cents for example = 1 album unit

The weights now obviously change to fit the circumstance

I am probably wrong but that is what I remember reading at one point.

[m450n]

Sept 15, 2020 11:49:13 GMT -5 Music Fan said:

I'm assuming these videos are now going to be flagged by Youtube (as they already are) but instead of the copyright holder (label) allowing them to stay on and rake the profit, they'll just not allow the video to stay on as is. So, I don't think we'll be seeing too many of these non-label videos anymore. I don't think it'll be too huge of a problem in the long run to have people go to the official source through Youtube.

But the reason the unofficial lyric videos have so many views is because a lot of people (including myself) don't want to have to watch a 5 minute music video to hear a 3 minute song... and a lot of the lyric videos are very nauseating and hard to keep up with..

A lot of the time the official lyric videos don't even have all of the lyrics...

[chartfreak]

Sept 15, 2020 3:40:17 GMT -5 dremolus - solarpunk said:

Well it'll be the label's fault if they dont put out a lyric video but what about up-and-comers who dont have the resources? Like what about a young rapper who gets a song viral on TikTok but cant put out a lyric video? Why shouldn't unofficial lyric videos for his song be counted as official streams?

What is an unofficial lyric video? You talking about non label?

[chartfreak]

Sept 15, 2020 8:55:10 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

People are consuming the song through these video uploads. Not counting them doesn't make them disappear. It simply removes the consumption of music, which is something Billboard should be doing the opposite - unless YouTube is planning on removing all unofficial videos completely.

I was just thinking this, that UGC videos would be taken down and or prohibited, copyright law, etc to have fans/consumers use the appropriate video.

[kimberly]

Gary if you have access to ranks 101-200 of Global 200, would you mind sharing that as well?

[Baby Yoda Hot100Fan]

^He already posted that on a separate thread.

[atg]

Imagine if circles got released in like october. it made the 2019 YE and it hits 52 weeks in october next month. It stays for like 10-15 more weeks and makes the 2021 YE list. One could only wish

[dremolus - solarpunk]

Sept 15, 2020 17:03:29 GMT -5 chartfreak said:

Sept 15, 2020 3:40:17 GMT -5 dremolus - solarpunk said:

Well it'll be the label's fault if they dont put out a lyric video but what about up-and-comers who dont have the resources? Like what about a young rapper who gets a song viral on TikTok but cant put out a lyric video? Why shouldn't unofficial lyric videos for his song be counted as official streams?

What is an unofficial lyric video? You talking about non label?

Yes. Why shouldn't the non-label lyric videos count, especially for smaller artists?

[Music Fan]

Sept 15, 2020 14:52:49 GMT -5 m450n said:

Sept 15, 2020 11:49:13 GMT -5 Music Fan said:

I'm assuming these videos are now going to be flagged by Youtube (as they already are) but instead of the copyright holder (label) allowing them to stay on and rake the profit, they'll just not allow the video to stay on as is. So, I don't think we'll be seeing too many of these non-label videos anymore. I don't think it'll be too huge of a problem in the long run to have people go to the official source through Youtube.

But the reason the unofficial lyric videos have so many views is because a lot of people (including myself) don't want to have to watch a 5 minute music video to hear a 3 minute song... and a lot of the lyric videos are very nauseating and hard to keep up with..

A lot of the time the official lyric videos don't even have all of the lyrics...

Labels are going to want to get 1) those coin$ per view, 2) those chart placements... so I would hope they would step up their game and make sure there's lyric videos for these songs. They'd be stupid to not have one considering they are so huge.

To whoever can answer, I know a couple people mentioned this would hurt smaller indie groups -- how so? Wouldn't their own videos they upload be counted? It doesn't have to be directly on a "vevo" type account as long it's the official artist account, right?

[iHype.]

Sept 16, 2020 0:39:21 GMT -5 Music Fan said:

Sept 15, 2020 14:52:49 GMT -5 m450n said:

But the reason the unofficial lyric videos have so many views is because a lot of people (including myself) don't want to have to watch a 5 minute music video to hear a 3 minute song... and a lot of the lyric videos are very nauseating and hard to keep up with..

A lot of the time the official lyric videos don't even have all of the lyrics...

Labels are going to want to get 1) those coin$ per view, 2) those chart placements... so I would hope they would step up their game and make sure there's lyric videos for these songs. They'd be stupid to not have one considering they are so huge.

To whoever can answer, I know a couple people mentioned this would hurt smaller indie groups -- how so? Wouldn't their own videos they upload be counted? It doesn't have to be directly on a "vevo" type account as long it's the official artist account, right?

Labels still get paid when regular users upload videos containing their music I believe? The songs/content is tracked in YouTube's system, and YouTube has to pay them out revenues for the streams just like when songs are uploaded by a label on their page. 

That's why labels didn't bother taking down lyric videos that have 100 million+ views. They're still getting paid as long as the song was identified by YouTube system I would think.

[thelegends]

Sept 15, 2020 12:18:14 GMT -5 kimberly said:

^ I was thinking more in the pop mindset but I guess it makes sense for people to look up hiphop lyric videos even if English is their first language.

Naos — that definitely makes sense. I always have my subtitles on for the music videos BTS and BLACKPINK release and that's enough for me, but if I wanted to dig deeper into their discographies I'm sure fanmade lyric videos would really come in handy.

With K-pop, the "line distribution" videos are also a whole different genre of videos that get a lot of views (they're fancy lyric videos essentially).

Yeah also fanmade lyric videos are helpful for the casual listener to know who is singing.

[sirskimask]

Sept 15, 2020 20:59:38 GMT -5 atg said:

Imagine if circles got released in like october. it made the 2019 YE and it hits 52 weeks in october next month. It stays for like 10-15 more weeks and makes the 2021 YE list. One could only wish

If only!! I want to see a song make three YE lists in a row (a song that actually deserves it, mind you)

[nathanalbright]

Regardless of whether a song deserved it or not a lot of people would be sick of any song that was on 3 YE charts.

[Gary]

I doubt it - it is about the song I think, not the year end charts. If a song can endure - it doesn't matter how many year end charts it gets placed on.

Year end charts are only a thing on forums like this one.

If recurrent rules were not in place we would have seen lots of songs place on year end charts much like albums do now - year after year since those recurrent rules were lifted about 10 years ago.

Looking at the global 200 now we see Bohemian Rhapsody - a hit three times on the Hot 100 and has been on a couple year end charts is at #131 this week

Without recurrent rules would have placed on a few more year end charts I think.

The point being for song longevity - it is about the song and people may never get sick of it regardless of how many year end charts it shows up on

[nathanalbright]

I'll grant you that some people will never get sick of a song because they like it, but I was referring to the fact that there would be--here at least--a great deal of bellyaching about a song that people were sick of seeing on the charts because it has happened with every song that has lasted a long time that I have seen here, including some great songs whose longevity I did not mind in the slightest and plenty of others whose longevity amused me rather than irritated me. I wholeheartedly agree that superrecurrency (the 52/25 rule in particular) has made it a challenge for a song to have that kind of lasting power, but it will be interesting to see if any song can time its release and popularity just right so as to do it.

[Gary]

Well here at least is a bit unique. Year end charts are seemingly a year round passion here. Listening to a song or not listening to a song because of where it falls on the year end chart probably is not a widespread thing outside of here

But outside of here it may be more about the music. With no recurrent rules on the global 200 we might actually get to see that a bit.

[Naos]

A US Hot 100 without a recurrent rule probably wouldn't have as long-running songs as Japan's (which doesn't have one), but I can imagine it still getting pretty stale nonetheless.