Taylor Swift - Midnights

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2023 7:54:22 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Taylor has quite a few songs in her catalog I would call clever, even genius. "Anti-Hero" is not one of them. It's a cute little TikTok song, not even close to being the best on Midnights and hopefully is not her ROTY/SOTY moment.

Anti-Hero is certainly not a cute little TikTok song lol 

[Ling-Ling]

Aug 29, 2023 8:32:36 GMT -5 @stateofgrace said:

Aug 29, 2023 7:54:22 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Taylor has quite a few songs in her catalog I would call clever, even genius. "Anti-Hero" is not one of them. It's a cute little TikTok song, not even close to being the best on Midnights and hopefully is not her ROTY/SOTY moment.

Anti-Hero is certainly not a cute little TikTok song lol 

It absolutely is. No matter how deep anyone thinks the song/subject matter is (it's not), the hook was so obviously designed for maximum virality. It worked, so kudos to her.

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2023 8:37:18 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Aug 29, 2023 8:32:36 GMT -5 @stateofgrace said:

Anti-Hero is certainly not a cute little TikTok song lol 

It absolutely is. No matter how deep anyone thinks the song/subject matter is (it's not), the hook was so obviously designed for maximum virality. It worked, so kudos to her.

lol okay. It's not even big on TikTok but whatever 

Anti-Hero remains a highly acclaimed smash and a front-runner for SOTY/ROTY

[Ling-Ling]

Never said it wasn't a frontrunner or wasn't acclaimed. But no matter what awards are thrown at it, it will never be THAT girl. Barely even a footnote in her catalog IMO.

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2023 8:46:21 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Never said it wasn't a frontrunner or wasn't acclaimed. But no matter what awards are thrown at it, it will never be THAT girl. Barely even a footnote in her catalog IMO.

This is key because in general terms it is a defining hit in her catalog 

[imbuemyblue]

It might not be in my top ten favorite Taylor songs (more so because of how vast and brilliant I think her catalogue is), but rendering what will end up being her biggest hot 100 hit ever from a career defining era a 'footnote in her catalogue' is a bit of a stretch.

The Grammys are pretty much the worst out of the EGOT awards in terms of rewarding actual talent/achievement so I'd say based on this song's popularity, who Taylor is, and the fact that she still has never won song/record it deserves it.

[Ling-Ling]

Aug 29, 2023 8:52:33 GMT -5 @stateofgrace said:

Aug 29, 2023 8:46:21 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Never said it wasn't a frontrunner or wasn't acclaimed. But no matter what awards are thrown at it, it will never be THAT girl. Barely even a footnote in her catalog IMO.

This is key because in general terms it is a defining hit in her catalog 

Anti-Hero was a big hit. But the jury is still out whether it's a defining hit. That's something only time will tell.


*edit* and when I say a footnote in her catalog. I mean in terms of quality. Like seriously, that song is such a virtual nothing in her discography in terms of songwriting, melody, etc.

[wjr15]

Aug 29, 2023 8:46:21 GMT -5 Ling-Ling said:

Never said it wasn't a frontrunner or wasn't acclaimed. But no matter what awards are thrown at it, it will never be THAT girl. Barely even a footnote in her catalog IMO.

I have to agree. Anti-Hero is a very middle-of-the-road song in Taylor’s discography. It is a decent song but comes nowhere close to songs like Blank Space, Cruel Summer, All Too Well in her discography. Even in terms of Midnights, I’d rank it in the middle for that album. If any song from that album gets Grammy love, I’d much prefer the superior Lavender Haze.

[Taylor.]

Plenty of middling songs have won SOTY before. I agree Anti-Hero isn't her most deserving but it would be a legacy win at this point. The fact that she hasn't won it yet is pretty baffling to me.

[Deleted]

I mean the song that won last year was extremely mid and no where near the top of Bonnie’s catalog. It would have been great for Taylor to win for All to Well or another one of her best songs……but she didn’t. I just care that she wins eventually and Anti Hero looks to be her best shot based on how the Grammys operate.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 29, 2023 9:12:28 GMT -5 Taylor. said:

Plenty of middling songs have won SOTY before. I agree Anti-Hero isn't her most deserving but it would be a legacy win at this point. The fact that she hasn't won it yet is pretty baffling to me.

Ding! Ding! Ding! This 100%. Exactly how I view it.

I've seen a lot of undermining of "Anti-Hero" on this forum since it peaked (not particularly relating to this thread specifically) for some odd reason both in terms of its success and quality. Like I'll give you quality because that's subjective, but success? Nope. The song was massive. It is her longest running #1 hit, topped the pop radio chart, and most importantly helped propel the album to sell nearly 6 million units. That doesn't happen with a song the public doesn't like. Even with some saying the song "won't be remembered" or "will be forgotten" when there's literally zero indication that will be the case (its longevity is fantastic). I understand everyone may not like a song, but let's be reasonable in our thinking here.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Aug 29, 2023 7:49:27 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

Aug 29, 2023 6:53:32 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Am I the only one who thinks the sexy baby line is a clever statement? Either I’m misunderstanding it or everyone else is

I've always understood what the line meant and found it clever, but there will always be those who just look from a surface level and be all "a sExY bAbY whaaatt LoL sTuPiD"? She was clearly using the line to reference ageism in the industry and how female artists of today are marketed younger and younger (hence the baby, hyperbolic) and sexualized more and more while she feels inadequate at her age and because she doesn't overtly sexualize herself (hence the monster on the hill), not to mention the "hill" bit referencing the phrase "over the hill" and since she's not quite there yet she placed herself on top to insinuate where she's headed, as in toward the age where the industry would typically send her out to pasture. The song is very cleverly crafted and if people see it as some simple dumb song they clearly don't get it. All art isn't appreciated by everyone at the end of the day.

I hope she wins with it even more now. Lol

That’s even beyond what I was thinking but exactly! To me, the “sexy baby” is in reference to how “baby” is used as a petname for people someone is into. ‘They’re hot, they’re sexy, they’re my baby’. So they’re a hot, sexy baby. It’s awkward when you put it like that obviously and I think the song intentionally drew attention to that.
Imagine you’re sitting in your feels after midnight, like Taylor would have us believe she was, thinking about how everyone else is so hot and you’re a troll. You’re going to be a little bitter over that and maybe want to bring down the concept a bit even if just in your own mind, so you’re like “why can’t I be a sexy baby! 😖” By making it sound kind of gross, it helps you feel even a little better that it doesn’t actually apply to you.

[Hefty Hanna]

I disagree with a lot of you on this one. ‘Anti-Hero’ was a moment and it’s clearly one of her best pop songs ever, if not her very best. “It’s me hi I’m the problem it’s me” also went viral with considerable ease. She absolutely nailed it with that one in every way possible.

[Taylor.]

[kimberly]

Aug 28, 2023 23:49:43 GMT -5 Grün said:

Taylor didn't write, "Did you hear my covert narcissism I disguise as altruism like some kind of congressman". To get shafted again.

it's literal word salad, one of the clunkiest lines she has ever written. it's pseudointellectual at best. lacks the self-awareness the song desperately tries to demonstrate.

It is a choice to only quote the sexy baby line - which the lyric was supposed to be tongue in cheek anyway.

I quoted that line because... it's most commonly regarded as the song's worst offense and it's hilariously bad. did you want me to copy and paste the entire song?

and yes, I understand what she wanted to convey with that line. no, I do not find it clever or successful.

I love Anti Hero. I think it is a smart pop song and deserving of the win.

good for you, you already said that. I think it is a mediocre pop song that fans prop up due to its popularity and it only lands around 8th-9th out of 13 songs on Midnights in terms of musical quality and lyrical content. we need to agree to disagree.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Aug 29, 2023 13:20:21 GMT -5 kimberly said:

I love Anti Hero. I think it is a smart pop song and deserving of the win.

good for you, you already said that. I think it is a mediocre pop song that fans prop up due to its popularity and it only lands around 8th-9th out of 13 songs on Midnights in terms of musical quality and lyrical content. we need to agree to disagree.

And you said that too.

Agreed on the agree to disagree part. I don't think the song would be particularly deserving of S/ROTY either given she's lost those with better songs, but the voters could very well have the same conversation (if they were as invested in the conversation as we all apparently are lol) and every "sexy baby" line trasher is another "sexy baby" line wonder. Depending on what it went up against, I'd vote for the song on that line alone - while also knowing others would not vote for it particularly because of that line. One can think it's not clever, as long as they know why I think it is clever (and of course I'd love to hear why it's hilariously bad).

[Ivy Leegue™]

Whew, y'all...everybody agreeeeeeeeeeeee to disagree.

[thezatch]

Aug 29, 2023 10:06:41 GMT -5 Hefty Hanna said:

I disagree with a lot of you on this one. ‘Anti-Hero’ was a moment and it’s clearly one of her best pop songs ever, if not her very best. “It’s me hi I’m the problem it’s me” also went viral with considerable ease. She absolutely nailed it with that one in every way possible.

110% this. Given how successful and popular it was as a single, it’s so weird to me that the song is so early into the Midnights section of the tour when it could have been the closer instead of “Mastermind” and “Karma”.

[kimberly]

Aug 29, 2023 14:07:18 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Aug 29, 2023 13:20:21 GMT -5 kimberly said:

good for you, you already said that. I think it is a mediocre pop song that fans prop up due to its popularity and it only lands around 8th-9th out of 13 songs on Midnights in terms of musical quality and lyrical content. we need to agree to disagree.

And you said that too.

I mentioned that because it was a direct response to my opinion, which didn't address anyone in particular or require a response. saying it a second time isn't going to change my opinion on a year-old hit miraculously.

(and of course I'd love to hear why it's hilariously bad)

since you asked...

the "sexy baby" metaphor, borrowed from 30 Rock, refers to the industry's obsession with youth, femininity, unattainable beauty standards. however, outside of its physical comedy context on the sitcom, this isn't a good metaphor to reflect this. it doesn't translate well as a line in her self-pity song. it's awkwardly worded. the rest of the verse doesn't even address those issues and focuses on her personal struggles with fame, so this attempt at relatability here does not succeed for me.

plus, she IS the unattainable standard. she IS a sexy baby. Tina Fey plays a stereotypical, uncouth, average-looking comedy writer on her show. Taylor Swift is none of those things. her co-opting the metaphor to position herself as a victim of these standards when she looks much more like the actor playing "sexy baby" is hilarious.

there was a missed opportunity to make the messaging more potent. as is, it's just funny and silly.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 29, 2023 14:51:57 GMT -5 thezatch said:

Aug 29, 2023 10:06:41 GMT -5 Hefty Hanna said:

I disagree with a lot of you on this one. ‘Anti-Hero’ was a moment and it’s clearly one of her best pop songs ever, if not her very best. “It’s me hi I’m the problem it’s me” also went viral with considerable ease. She absolutely nailed it with that one in every way possible.

110% this. Given how successful and popular it was as a single, it’s so weird to me that the song is so early into the Midnights section of the tour when it could have been the closer instead of “Mastermind” and “Karma”.

Agreed! Also with how absolutely monumental of a hit it is I find it odd that it is kind of casually thrown into the mix on the setlist without feeling like it has its own moment like some of her other big hits (yet we get an intro for "The Man"). Oh well. lol

Always an "Anti-Hero" fan for sure! Best single off Midnights by a mile IMO.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Aug 29, 2023 15:23:42 GMT -5 kimberly said:

the "sexy baby" metaphor, borrowed from 30 Rock,

Omg I completely forgot about that in 30 Rock! Now there’s genius writing!

You make a good point. Yeah, it could have gone further. I still like it as it’s used in the song because it’s been so jarring for many, but I get your point now about it not being a great vehicle for such an example to have been as impactful. Makes total sense.

[Grün]

I mean Single Ladies, Bad Guy, and Thinking Out Loud won song of the year. None of these, I would call lyrical masterpieces.

TBH, Lover or All Too Well should have won, but I would put Anti Hero in the same place as Blank Space.

Catchy, self-aware, and clever writing.

[Codex]

Aug 29, 2023 9:55:37 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Aug 29, 2023 7:49:27 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

I've always understood what the line meant and found it clever, but there will always be those who just look from a surface level and be all "a sExY bAbY whaaatt LoL sTuPiD"? She was clearly using the line to reference ageism in the industry and how female artists of today are marketed younger and younger (hence the baby, hyperbolic) and sexualized more and more while she feels inadequate at her age and because she doesn't overtly sexualize herself (hence the monster on the hill), not to mention the "hill" bit referencing the phrase "over the hill" and since she's not quite there yet she placed herself on top to insinuate where she's headed, as in toward the age where the industry would typically send her out to pasture. The song is very cleverly crafted and if people see it as some simple dumb song they clearly don't get it. All art isn't appreciated by everyone at the end of the day.

I hope she wins with it even more now. Lol

That’s even beyond what I was thinking but exactly! To me, the “sexy baby” is in reference to how “baby” is used as a petname for people someone is into. ‘They’re hot, they’re sexy, they’re my baby’. So they’re a hot, sexy baby. It’s awkward when you put it like that obviously and I think the song intentionally drew attention to that.
Imagine you’re sitting in your feels after midnight, like Taylor would have us believe she was, thinking about how everyone else is so hot and you’re a troll. You’re going to be a little bitter over that and maybe want to bring down the concept a bit even if just in your own mind, so you’re like “why can’t I be a sexy baby! 😖” By making it sound kind of gross, it helps you feel even a little better that it doesn’t actually apply to you.

I thought the line was supposed to mean her insecurity about her height. Like everyone else is a "sexy baby" as in short, while she feels like a "monster on the hill" for being so freakishly tall. I saw it on TikTok with a slideshow of pictures of her towering over other celebrities.

www.j-14.com/posts/10-photos-of-taylor-swift-towering-over-other-stars-16582/

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 29, 2023 17:19:25 GMT -5 Codex said:

I thought the line was supposed to mean her insecurity about her height. Like everyone else is a "sexy baby" as in short, while she feels like a "monster on the hill" for being so freakishly tall. I saw it on TikTok with a slideshow of pictures of her towering over other celebrities.

www.j-14.com/posts/10-photos-of-taylor-swift-towering-over-other-stars-16582/

Here is a great article explaining its meaning:

www.thecut.com/2022/10/what-does-taylor-swift-mean-with-that-sexy-baby-lyric.html

Aug 29, 2023 17:09:52 GMT -5 Grün said:

I mean Single Ladies, Bad Guy, and Thinking Out Loud won song of the year. None of these, I would call lyrical masterpieces.

Who could forget those genius lyrical masterpieces like "you're a tough guy, like it really rough guy" or "I'm up on him, he up on me, don't pay him any attention". lol Yeah the award has rarely ever been about quality alone so I don't know why people act as if only top-tier quality songwriting "deserves" to be nominated. I mean maybe in a perfect world that would be the case, but it just isn't the reality we live in at all. I don't think its anywhere close to her best writing, but it certainly wouldn't be absurd to see it nominated.

[kimberly]

I don't think she's referencing "over the hill" or anything specific to aging there at all — she would have said "over" not "on" if that were the case. "on the hill" does not mean "over the hill," idioms aren't interchangeable like that.

she's just referencing the children's story "Monster on the Hill" to make her point about feeling different and like an outsider. everyone's a sexy baby and she's a giant monster coming to destroy the town (which is the plot of the story).

Aug 29, 2023 17:09:52 GMT -5 Grün said:

I mean Single Ladies, Bad Guy, and Thinking Out Loud won song of the year. None of these, I would call lyrical masterpieces.

TBH, Lover or All Too Well should have won, but I would put Anti Hero in the same place as Blank Space.

Catchy, self-aware, and clever writing.

I mean, the previous winners you listed were all important for their eras and signified something greater about the changing pop music landscape. I say this as someone who did not follow the Grammys in 2010 and wasn't rooting for Bad Guy or Thinking Out Loud. There is more substantial logic for those songs, though, than just "they aren't lyrical masterpieces." Songs don't have to stick in "altruism" into a goofy line to be well-written.

"Anti-Hero" brings a stale idea we've already heard from Taylor Swift to the table with ok lyrics, not much set-awareness, and Jack Antonoff on autopilot. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[Grün]

Aug 29, 2023 17:50:33 GMT -5 kimberly said:

I don't think she's referencing "over the hill" or anything specific to aging there at all — she would have said "over" not "on" if that were the case. "on the hill" does not mean "over the hill," idioms aren't interchangeable like that.

she's just referencing the children's story "Monster on the Hill" to make her point about feeling different and like an outsider. everyone's a sexy baby and she's a giant monster coming to destroy the town (which is the plot of the story).

Aug 29, 2023 17:09:52 GMT -5 Grün said:

I mean Single Ladies, Bad Guy, and Thinking Out Loud won song of the year. None of these, I would call lyrical masterpieces.

TBH, Lover or All Too Well should have won, but I would put Anti Hero in the same place as Blank Space.

Catchy, self-aware, and clever writing.

I mean, the previous winners you listed were all important for their eras and signified something greater about the changing pop music landscape. I say this as someone who did not follow the Grammys in 2010 and wasn't rooting for Bad Guy or Thinking Out Loud. There is more substantial logic for those songs, though, than just "they aren't lyrical masterpieces." Songs don't have to stick in "altruism" into a goofy line to be well-written.

"Anti-Hero" brings a stale idea we've already heard from Taylor Swift to the table with ok lyrics, not much set-awareness, and Jack Antonoff on autopilot. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Two boring, banal wedding playlist songs and one with a catchy beat with atrocious lyrics.... groundbreaking.

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2023 17:50:33 GMT -5 kimberly said:

I don't think she's referencing "over the hill" or anything specific to aging there at all — she would have said "over" not "on" if that were the case. "on the hill" does not mean "over the hill," idioms aren't interchangeable like that.

she's just referencing the children's story "Monster on the Hill" to make her point about feeling different and like an outsider. everyone's a sexy baby and she's a giant monster coming to destroy the town (which is the plot of the story).

Aug 29, 2023 17:09:52 GMT -5 Grün said:

I mean Single Ladies, Bad Guy, and Thinking Out Loud won song of the year. None of these, I would call lyrical masterpieces.

TBH, Lover or All Too Well should have won, but I would put Anti Hero in the same place as Blank Space.

Catchy, self-aware, and clever writing.

I mean, the previous winners you listed were all important for their eras and signified something greater about the changing pop music landscape. I say this as someone who did not follow the Grammys in 2010 and wasn't rooting for Bad Guy or Thinking Out Loud. There is more substantial logic for those songs, though, than just "they aren't lyrical masterpieces." Songs don't have to stick in "altruism" into a goofy line to be well-written.

"Anti-Hero" brings a stale idea we've already heard from Taylor Swift to the table with ok lyrics, not much set-awareness, and Jack Antonoff on autopilot. 🤷🏽‍♀️

I'm curious. Which past Taylor song do you think is similar to Anti-Hero?

[Marooned@Midnight]

The Anti-Hero hate is blasphemous. Out of her many highs the past year, that song may be the climax. From a commercial, critical, and pure quality standpoint, it’s a career highlight. The covert narcissism line is genius and makes it deserve song of the year all on its own.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but let’s be real and honest, no one thought she could have a hit on that level again. Anti-Hero changed the game (again) for her.

[Deleted]

I definitely did. I guess it's just maybe where i'm from and my age so I knew first hand she was gaining traction among my real life mutuals during the Lover era and the pandemic 

But yeah. I can understand why that wasn't the case for many...

[daddy]

I thought one reason she released Folklore and Evermore was to show the public that she's an album artist, which was smart when you look at the age of females getting airplay.

I think the chart success of "Anti-Hero" also surprised Taylor.

It's a stellar song and would be a very deserving winner, IMO.

The real crime is ATW10MV losing SOTY.