Katy Perry : "Woman's World"

[SPRΞΞ]

Aug 24, 2024 13:14:10 GMT -5 shakemaki said:

Lordt, that type of response from her is exactly what is going to sink her career forever. She needs to just be honest atp about why she wanted to work with you know who, instead of pretending the backlash isn’t real.

its to the point where she literally can't release anything else until its addressed. Even a catchy song without Dr. Luke would face backlash.

even Madonna during the Erotica era during that extreme backlash she owned up to her own sexuality and why she was confident about it. She never avoided why she felt her sexuality empowered her. She owned every minute of it, and that kinda carried her to the next phase of her career.

seems Katy is just flat-out denying there is anything wrong with her era at all, which behind closed doors, can't be the case. Just fucking own it already. Own the stupid decisions. It would do so much good.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

I think it's obvious with the way Katy has carried on throughout this entire debacle she kind of lives in her own bubble and I don't see her making any kind of statement or addressing anything Dr. Luke related (cue her adamantly avoiding the girl who questioned her about it as she stepped into her vehicle or the way she hints, but sidesteps any direct discussion about it in interviews). She knows its reception is terrible, she just doesn't care, because she knew it would be criticized (likely not to this extent, but still) before she released it. She shows time and time again she is really lacking in self-awareness, is tone-deaf, and really doesn't seem to care if, let alone feel she did anything wrong. I'm sure she's victimizing herself and thinks everyone else is "exaggerating". lol She's got that old school "pop star" mentality that's fostered by a lot of success, a touch of narcissism, and too many "yes men", but it's all going to be to her own detriment, because the more she refuses accountability and acknowledgement of any wrongdoing, the worse things are going to play out for her (universe has a way of teaching us the hard way when we're stubborn). Which is sad, because this all could be rectified so easily with an acknowledgement, an apology, and better choices going forward.

[Ty]

Why do people think Katy is morally obligated to side with Kesha, when Kesha has spread certain rumors about Katy and Luke's relationship that Katy formally denied in court?

[haven]

didn't we have this exact conversation earlier in this thread?

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 24, 2024 17:03:56 GMT -5 Ty said:

Why do people think Katy is morally obligated to side with Kesha, when Kesha has spread certain rumors about Katy and Luke's relationship that Katy formally denied in court?

This is such a tired argument and way to victim blame from those who are on the outside looking in seeking any and every way to justify Katy's choices. No one knows what happened between Luke and Kesha OR Katy, but the three of them. Just because Katy denied it publicly doesn't mean Kesha was lying first of all, as not everyone wants the public knowing their business, least of all their personal trauma (yes people lie under oath all the time). Also, it wasn't about "siding" with Kesha, so much as it was about public perception and her own career. Kesha aside, Katy knew full and well how it would look to work with someone several female celebrities have complained about who did have sexual assault allegations alleged about him whether or not he was or wasn't guilty. When you're a popular personality, public perception can make or break you (regardless of facts) and if you're smart you don't choose to publicly align with someone with such a tainted/disgraced reputation or you risk being maligned right alongside them via direct association. She knew better than to align with him during the Witness era, so it's not as if she weren't cognizant of this, she just likely assumed enough time had passed and she could slip by working with him in hopes he would deliver her the hit she desperately wanted. Katy made her choice and now she's reaping the benefits of those actions.

[Maximillian]

Aug 24, 2024 19:23:31 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

Aug 24, 2024 17:03:56 GMT -5 Ty said:

Why do people think Katy is morally obligated to side with Kesha, when Kesha has spread certain rumors about Katy and Luke's relationship that Katy formally denied in court?

This is such a tired argument and way to victim blame from those who are on the outside looking in seeking any and every way to justify Katy's choices. No one knows what happened between Luke and Kesha OR Katy, but the three of them. Just because Katy denied it publicly doesn't mean Kesha was lying first of all, as not everyone wants the public knowing their business, least of all their personal trauma (yes people lie under oath all the time). Also, it wasn't about "siding" with Kesha, so much as it was about public perception and her own career. Kesha aside, Katy knew full and well how it would look to work with someone several female celebrities have complained about who did have sexual assault allegations alleged about him whether or not he was or wasn't guilty. When you're a popular personality, public perception can make or break you (regardless of facts) and if you're smart you don't choose to publicly align with someone with such a tainted/disgraced reputation or you risk being maligned right alongside them via association. She knew better than to align with him during the Witness era, so it's not as if she weren't cognizant of this, she just likely assumed enough time has passed and she could slip by working with him in hopes he would deliver her the hit she desperately wanted. Katy made her choice and now she's reaping the benefits of those actions.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Well said. No notes.

[Ty]

Aug 24, 2024 19:23:31 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

Aug 24, 2024 17:03:56 GMT -5 Ty said:

Why do people think Katy is morally obligated to side with Kesha, when Kesha has spread certain rumors about Katy and Luke's relationship that Katy formally denied in court?

This is such a tired argument and way to victim blame from those who are on the outside looking in seeking any and every way to justify Katy's choices. No one knows what happened between Luke and Kesha OR Katy, but the three of them. Just because Katy denied it publicly doesn't mean Kesha was lying first of all, as not everyone wants the public knowing their business, least of all their personal trauma (yes people lie under oath all the time). Also, it wasn't about "siding" with Kesha, so much as it was about public perception and her own career. Kesha aside, Katy knew full and well how it would look to work with someone several female celebrities have complained about who did have sexual assault allegations alleged about him whether or not he was or wasn't guilty. When you're a popular personality, public perception can make or break you (regardless of facts) and if you're smart you don't choose to publicly align with someone with such a tainted/disgraced reputation or you risk being maligned right alongside them via direct association. She knew better than to align with him during the Witness era, so it's not as if she weren't cognizant of this, she just likely assumed enough time had passed and she could slip by working with him in hopes he would deliver her the hit she desperately wanted. Katy made her choice and now she's reaping the benefits of those actions.

I don't find the argument very compelling that her flopping is all because of Dr. Luke. You dissertation doesn't change that.

Also, how was I victim blaming Kesha when I simply pointed out the fact that Katy had a complicated relationship with her after the legal drama? Don't put words I didn't say in my mouth. Thanks.

[Maximillian]

Aug 24, 2024 19:49:41 GMT -5 Ty said:

Aug 24, 2024 19:23:31 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

This is such a tired argument and way to victim blame from those who are on the outside looking in seeking any and every way to justify Katy's choices. No one knows what happened between Luke and Kesha OR Katy, but the three of them. Just because Katy denied it publicly doesn't mean Kesha was lying first of all, as not everyone wants the public knowing their business, least of all their personal trauma (yes people lie under oath all the time). Also, it wasn't about "siding" with Kesha, so much as it was about public perception and her own career. Kesha aside, Katy knew full and well how it would look to work with someone several female celebrities have complained about who did have sexual assault allegations alleged about him whether or not he was or wasn't guilty. When you're a popular personality, public perception can make or break you (regardless of facts) and if you're smart you don't choose to publicly align with someone with such a tainted/disgraced reputation or you risk being maligned right alongside them via direct association. She knew better than to align with him during the Witness era, so it's not as if she weren't cognizant of this, she just likely assumed enough time had passed and she could slip by working with him in hopes he would deliver her the hit she desperately wanted. Katy made her choice and now she's reaping the benefits of those actions.

I don't find the argument very compelling that her flopping is all because of Dr. Luke. You dissertation doesn't change that.

Also, how was I victim blaming Kesha when I simply pointed out the fact that Katy had a complicated relationship with her after the legal drama? Don't put words I didn't say in my mouth. Thanks.

As far as the argument of Luke effecting Katy? You don’t need to look further than every single reviewer that destroyed her when she dropped the song with Luke or her own social media pages where she was brutally dragged.

To be honest, you’re a few weeks late on this point that has been asked and answered in several threads and had become a cultural talking point weeks ago.

Katy made her bed. She gets to lie in it now.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 24, 2024 19:49:41 GMT -5 Ty said:

I don't find the argument very compelling that her flopping is all because of Dr. Luke. You dissertation doesn't change that.

I never said her flopping was "all" because of Dr. Luke did I? Nope. But it was absolutely a pivotal factor as cited by pretty much any and every criticism, most of which directly cited their relationship! 😁

I simply pointed out the fact that Katy had a complicated relationship with her after the legal drama?

Is that what you said? I could've sworn you claimed Kesha was "spreading rumors about Katy" and insinuated Katy didn't exactly have reason to "take her side"? None of that is exactly supportive or positive and absolutely comes across as direct criticism of Kesha (who is the victim in this whole scenario).

[Ty]

Aug 24, 2024 19:53:51 GMT -5 Maximillian said:

Aug 24, 2024 19:49:41 GMT -5 Ty said:

I don't find the argument very compelling that her flopping is all because of Dr. Luke. You dissertation doesn't change that.

Also, how was I victim blaming Kesha when I simply pointed out the fact that Katy had a complicated relationship with her after the legal drama? Don't put words I didn't say in my mouth. Thanks.

As far as the argument of Luke effecting Katy? You don’t need to look further than every single reviewer that destroyed her when she dropped the song with Luke or her own social media pages where she was brutally dragged.

To be honest, you’re a few weeks late on this point that has been asked and answered in several threads and had become a cultural talking point weeks ago.

Katy made her bed. She gets to lie in it now.

Lol, was she ever a critic's sweetheart, though? Her biggest era Teenage Dream got pretty low scores from music critics across the board. The sensitivity around working with Dr. Luke is real, but I don't think it would have played out like this if the song was compelling.

I know the song is pretty much dead on radio, so we could close this conversation here.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 24, 2024 20:03:04 GMT -5 Ty said:

Lol, was she ever a critic's sweetheart, though?

It wasn't just from critics though, as Maximillian highlighted she was being dragged all over social media as well.

[KeepDeanWeird]

WW could've been produced by Finneas, Jack Antonoff, Max Martin, etc. the end result would've been the same. The song topic is about 50 years too late. And that cringe video, speaks for itself.

Katy had 3 incredibly successful era chock full of huge hits.

The reality is that *Pop* girls simply come and go - Top 40 and the public has kinda treated them as disposable. Very few have longevity and Katy surpassed 98% of them. And it's not like this is her first disappointing era. Radio even gave her a chance, she's done and it's OK.

She's had a great career, made a ton $$$ and can tour/do a residency for the rest of her life. It'd be foolish to believe KP didn't know the odds were against replicating her past success.

[avamaxstan]

Aug 24, 2024 19:23:31 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

Aug 24, 2024 17:03:56 GMT -5 Ty said:

Why do people think Katy is morally obligated to side with Kesha, when Kesha has spread certain rumors about Katy and Luke's relationship that Katy formally denied in court?

This is such a tired argument and way to victim blame from those who are on the outside looking in seeking any and every way to justify Katy's choices. No one knows what happened between Luke and Kesha OR Katy, but the three of them. Just because Katy denied it publicly doesn't mean Kesha was lying first of all, as not everyone wants the public knowing their business, least of all their personal trauma (yes people lie under oath all the time). Also, it wasn't about "siding" with Kesha, so much as it was about public perception and her own career. Kesha aside, Katy knew full and well how it would look to work with someone several female celebrities have complained about who did have sexual assault allegations alleged about him whether or not he was or wasn't guilty. When you're a popular personality, public perception can make or break you (regardless of facts) and if you're smart you don't choose to publicly align with someone with such a tainted/disgraced reputation or you risk being maligned right alongside them via direct association. She knew better than to align with him during the Witness era, so it's not as if she weren't cognizant of this, she just likely assumed enough time had passed and she could slip by working with him in hopes he would deliver her the hit she desperately wanted. Katy made her choice and now she's reaping the benefits of those actions.

Girl you gotta stop taking the cheap bait from the trolls xo

[wavey.]

Aug 24, 2024 21:52:55 GMT -5 KeepDeanWeird said:

WW could've been produced by Finneas, Jack Antonoff, Max Martin, etc. the end result would've been the same. The song topic is about 50 years too late. And that cringe video, speaks for itself.

Katy had 3 incredibly successful era chock full of huge hits.

The reality is that *Pop* girls simply come and go - Top 40 and the public has kinda treated them as disposable. Very few have longevity and Katy surpassed 98% of them. And it's not like this is her first disappointing era. Radio even gave her a chance, she's done and it's OK.

She's had a great career, made a ton $$$ and can tour/do a residency for the rest of her life. It'd be foolish to believe KP didn't know the odds were against replicating her past success.

Yeah I'm starting to think she doesn't care about commercial success anymore (I could be wrong too🤷🏾)

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 24, 2024 22:45:18 GMT -5 avamaxstan said:

Girl you gotta stop taking the cheap bait from the trolls xo

I don't keep up enough personally with members on here to even discern who is a "known troll" and who isn't, so I take it on comment by comment basis and If I feel it's obvious trolling I don't respond. The og comment didn't seem trollish to me, as I know many people who've held similar opinions against Kesha and the whole Dr. Luke situation in the past and sadly victim blaming is fairly common.

Aug 24, 2024 22:50:11 GMT -5 wavey. said:

Yeah I'm starting to think she doesn't care about commercial success anymore (I could be wrong too🤷🏾)

I don't know what in her actions have given you this impression. I mean she's spoken lately about songs being "the biggest unreleased hits of her career", she's taken to lives announcing how it's been a "long time", but "Katy's back!", she left Idol to focus on promoting the album/era, she has had a central focus of reminding everyone of her career stats (diamond awards etc) and old hits, and even chose to work with a hugely controversial figure just to attempt to recapture old glory. None of this gives off she doesn't care about commercial success or her own relevance? lol I can appreciate your continued optimism though!

[Love Plastic Love]

Yeah I don't get the impression that she doesn't care about commercial success. Her team has been hyping this as the pop comeback of a lifetime since it was announced. She said that she was releasing her biggest hit yet. She got a sweet radio deal and a big budget video. She went back with Dr. Luke and I really doubt she ran back to him for artistic reasons. I also think the music was crafted to be a hit rather than being "just done for herself." I honestly think they expected WW to smash. Maybe she stopped caring after WW flopped, of course, because I don't really see them doing much to save this era at the moment. I just don't think that was the intention from the beginning.

[wavey.]

Aug 25, 2024 7:02:35 GMT -5 👑 Eloquent ™ said:

Aug 24, 2024 22:45:18 GMT -5 avamaxstan said:

Girl you gotta stop taking the cheap bait from the trolls xo

Aug 24, 2024 22:50:11 GMT -5 wavey. said:

Yeah I'm starting to think she doesn't care about commercial success anymore (I could be wrong too🤷🏾)

I don't know what in her actions have given you this impression. I mean she's spoken lately about songs being "the biggest unreleased hits of her career", she's taken to lives announcing how it's been a "long time", but "Katy's back!", she left Idol to focus on promoting the album/era, she has had a central focus of reminding everyone of her career stats (diamond awards etc) and old hits, and even chose to work with a hugely controversial figure just to attempt to recapture old glory. None of this gives off she doesn't care about commercial success or her own relevance? lol I can appreciate your continued optimism though!

Even with all of that(who said that talking about bout your previous work and your upcoming indicates she was going to recreate that?), she still can not care that much and just wants to connect with the fans more(which we visibly see in these clubs, personal albums listenings). Idk, just offering a different perspective. Who knows 🤷🏾

[Maximillian]

Regardless of her intentions on this album, I will speculate that we will see a very different KP in the future. I imagine after this she will move on from commercial stardom and focus - hopefully - on herself as an artist and go the route Pink, Kylie Minogue, Kelly Clarkson, etc have gone which is build out their later in life careers and create some of the best work they have done when they stopped chasing radio hits.

Which, can still result in hits, but they won’t be manufactured. They will just be more organic.

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 25, 2024 12:23:54 GMT -5 wavey. said:

Even with all of that(who said that talking about bout your previous work and your upcoming indicates she was going to recreate that?),

It doesn't mean she is going to recreate or replicate that at all necessarily, but that wasn't my initial point. I think by her centering a lot of discussion in recent interviews on her old hits/successes (such as comparing the upcoming "Gimme Gimme" to "Dark Horse") she is trying to draw parallels, refreshing people's memory of her stronger material and the way they resonated with her during her peak in an attempt to foster nostalgia and subsequently excitment this new material might resonate with them in the same way. That's the impression I got from it and what I meant by referencing it. I think by all accounts it was pretty clear both her and her label were invested in 143 being a "return to form" of sorts for Katy commercially. I just don't buy the idea that now it hasn't performed as expected that suddenly she never cared is all. lol But of course we all have our own opinions/ways of looking at things!

[mccloud]

There's absolutely 0 chance that she stopped caring about commercial succeass. Womans World is D list/diet Firework, with the same producer who made almost all the hits from her peak era. She basically studied her records from 2010-2012 and made a whole album based around the success she thought it would bring. 

You just can't release bad to mid songs that are largely dated, pushing 40 years old at that.

She needed to release of one the catchiest songs of her career and instead we got something even more mid than Chained to the Rhythm 

[SPRΞΞ]

Aug 25, 2024 15:47:42 GMT -5 mccloud said:

There's absolutely 0 chance that she stopped caring about commercial succeass. Womans World is D list/diet Firework, with the same producer who made almost all the hits from her peak era. She basically studied her records from 2010-2012 and made a whole album based around the success she thought it would bring. 

You just can't release bad to mid songs that are largely dated, pushing 40 years old at that.

She needed to release of one the catchiest songs of her career and instead we got something even more mid than Chained to the Rhythm 

Chained to the Rhythm is great. Video was spectacular too.

[Love Plastic Love]

CTTR was a great song and I wish they didn't panic so much when some of her great, more modern sounding music didn't become multi-week #1 smashes. CTTR, 365, Never Really Over-all great songs that performed well, even if not Teenage Dream sized.

[mccloud]

Aug 25, 2024 16:12:34 GMT -5 SPRΞΞ said:

Aug 25, 2024 15:47:42 GMT -5 mccloud said:

There's absolutely 0 chance that she stopped caring about commercial succeass. Womans World is D list/diet Firework, with the same producer who made almost all the hits from her peak era. She basically studied her records from 2010-2012 and made a whole album based around the success she thought it would bring. 

You just can't release bad to mid songs that are largely dated, pushing 40 years old at that.

She needed to release of one the catchiest songs of her career and instead we got something even more mid than Chained to the Rhythm 

Chained to the Rhythm is great. Video was spectacular too.

The hook was clunky and that's why it was frontloaded, imo. Only loved by her core base not the GP like her older hits

[Maximillian]

I remember CTTR had a lot of dislike the debut week and people called it underwhelming. However, I think it’s stood up pretty well tbh.

I swear that pixie cut just killed that era lol. I actually still enjoy Witness. I still regularly listen to Roulette, Swish Swish, CTTR, Bon Appétit, Deja Vu

[mccloud]

Aug 25, 2024 16:47:00 GMT -5 Maximillian said:

I remember CTTR had a lot of dislike the debut week and people called it underwhelming. However, I think it’s stood up pretty well tbh.

I swear that pixie cut just killed that era lol. I actually still enjoy Witness. I still regularly listen to Roulette, Swish Swish, CTTR, Bon Appétit, Deja Vu

For all the momentum that she had coming off of Roar and Dark Horse, CTTR underperformed badly. 15 weeks and only 2 in the top 10. You could argue pretty easily that Never Really Over (also 15 weeks) performed better under the circumstances given how hard she had fell off after Witness

[👑 Eloquent ™]

Aug 25, 2024 16:47:00 GMT -5 Maximillian said:

I remember CTTR had a lot of dislike the debut week and people called it underwhelming. However, I think it’s stood up pretty well tbh.

I agree with this totally. Initially I wasn't in love with the song because it was quite wordy/"clunky" as the above poster stated. I also think at the time it was weak comparativy to her biggest hits. With that said it definitely stood up well for me as well. It was easily the strongest single from Witness IMO. I also loved "Roulette" and "Swish Swish". I was baffled to find out one of Katy's favorites from Witness was "Mind Maze", one of the worst for me. -_-

[SPRΞΞ]

Aug 25, 2024 16:50:36 GMT -5 mccloud said:

Aug 25, 2024 16:47:00 GMT -5 Maximillian said:

I remember CTTR had a lot of dislike the debut week and people called it underwhelming. However, I think it’s stood up pretty well tbh.

I swear that pixie cut just killed that era lol. I actually still enjoy Witness. I still regularly listen to Roulette, Swish Swish, CTTR, Bon Appétit, Deja Vu

For all the momentum that she had coming off of Roar and Dark Horse, CTTR underperformed badly. 15 weeks and only 2 in the top 10. You could argue pretty easily that Never Really Over (also 15 weeks) performed better under the circumstances given how hard she had fell off after Witness

Why is it the people who continuously talk trash know EXACTLY all her stats?

[wavey.]

I think the political things around the song hindered the performance, but it still was a Top 5 song..and the beginning of the decline.

IICR, she was trying to find her identity at the time(didn't she do some roundtable thing with different entertainers?)

[mccloud]

Aug 25, 2024 16:58:25 GMT -5 SPRΞΞ said:

Aug 25, 2024 16:50:36 GMT -5 mccloud said:

For all the momentum that she had coming off of Roar and Dark Horse, CTTR underperformed badly. 15 weeks and only 2 in the top 10. You could argue pretty easily that Never Really Over (also 15 weeks) performed better under the circumstances given how hard she had fell off after Witness

Why is it the people who continuously talk trash know EXACTLY all her stats?

Because the objective is not to talk trash. It's to analyze her situation in a non-bias manor, which has (obviously) not been good after 2017. If she was releasing bangers like Sabrina Carpenter rn she would still be very successful

[collin]

Aug 25, 2024 16:58:25 GMT -5 SPRΞΞ said:

Aug 25, 2024 16:50:36 GMT -5 mccloud said:

For all the momentum that she had coming off of Roar and Dark Horse, CTTR underperformed badly. 15 weeks and only 2 in the top 10. You could argue pretty easily that Never Really Over (also 15 weeks) performed better under the circumstances given how hard she had fell off after Witness

Why is it the people who continuously talk trash know EXACTLY all her stats?

Because this is a pop music forum about… stats? There’s a strength in knowing what you’re talking about when you ‘trash’ someone.