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Post by themakshack on Jan 1, 2006 1:34:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification.
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 1, 2006 2:31:24 GMT -5
It's a REAL tribute to Kidd Kraddick of KHKS and KIIS's Ryan Seacrest that they both do EXTREMELY well with 25-54 year-old listeners in morning drive, and Kraddick's numbers are off-the-charts in that demo.
I don't know if KHKS is as heavily into rhythmic product as KIIS is, and especially with Urban powerhouse K-104 (KKDA) being Dallas's #1 radio station, but Kraddick and Seacrest HAVE to be complimented for pulling in adult listeners like they do.
I read in R&R a couple of years ago that Elvis Duran of NYC's Z100 was 4th in morning drive in 25-54 year-old listeners in NYC, which isn't too shabby either, especially if he still has similar ratings numbers today among NYC's adults.
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Krypton46
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Post by Krypton46 on Jan 1, 2006 18:59:00 GMT -5
It doesn't make sense to say that the younger demographic (ages 6-17) has no interest in hearing music from the Goo Goo Dolls, Bon Jovi, or anyone else that is more known now on Hot AC and are now strangers it seems to pop radio. If people don't mind hearing songs like "Boulevard Of Broken Dreams", "You & Me", "Beverly Hills", "Wake Me Up...", etc, then why would they have a problem hearing songs like "Better Days", "Have A Nice Day", "Ever The Same", etc? How are the former group of songs any different from the latter?
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Post by Love Plastic Love on Jan 1, 2006 19:11:09 GMT -5
"Hipper" artists and slightly more relatable lyrics to the younger crowd (BOBD was so directed towards angsty 13-15 year olds it was almost embarassing) Thats probably radio or label's reasoning. I personally think that the younger crowd would be more open to "Old" or "unhip" artists than people think.
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Krypton46
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Post by Krypton46 on Jan 1, 2006 19:39:03 GMT -5
I agree but there have also been a wide number of songs more on the "serious" and "mature" side of the spectrum like WMUWSE, Photograph, You & Me, Let Me Go, etc that have dominated the airwaves too, so to say that 6-17 year olds wouldn't tolerate music from HAC is hard to believe. There's no reason to think they'd want nothing to do with that kind of music, but at the end of the day, I agree, it's radio's doing.
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Post by Love Plastic Love on Jan 1, 2006 19:46:00 GMT -5
I contend the fact that those songs are "really mature and serious" You and Me? A 14 year old could have written that about their crush But radio does not always make sense. To me, Bon Jovi's song is just as relatable as some of the songs you mentioned...and the album is selling decently for a new BJ album, but I guess Jon is just considered "old" now while Green Day is hip so they can be played.
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Krypton46
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Post by Krypton46 on Jan 1, 2006 19:56:54 GMT -5
LOL Well it "sounds" that way so that's why I mentioned it, and I did use quotes. I don't know whether the average or casual listener in that age range actually reads a lot into the lyrics of a song or not, I doubt it, but who knows.
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Post by Love Plastic Love on Jan 1, 2006 20:01:30 GMT -5
lol yeah I know what you meant.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 2, 2006 0:06:27 GMT -5
It doesn't make sense to say that the younger demographic (ages 6-17) has no interest in hearing music from the Goo Goo Dolls, Bon Jovi, or anyone else that is more known now on Hot AC and are now strangers it seems to pop radio. If people don't mind hearing songs like "Boulevard Of Broken Dreams", "You & Me", "Beverly Hills", "Wake Me Up...", etc, then why would they have a problem hearing songs like "Better Days", "Have A Nice Day", "Ever The Same", etc? How are the former group of songs any different from the latter? You and I know this, but the CHR/Pop programmers don't seem to... we know that all of those above songs are VERY similar sounding... but the programmers for whatever reason think that Bon Jovi, Goo Goo Dolls & Rob Thomas are "too adult" for this demo... It's a sad state of affairs... I sure hope that things change for the better at this format in 2006 (especially locally)...
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MinusName
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Post by MinusName on Jan 2, 2006 11:55:21 GMT -5
I don't really understand how a 13 year-old can relate to lyrics by 50 Cent and Eminem, unless they live in a high-crime area. Chr/Pop may be catering to the 6-17 crowd, but that doesn't mean teens do not want to hear Hot AC-leaning music, there is a format called Hot AC which those teens can listen to, therefore there would be no need for a call-out on Pop for Hot AC music if their city had a Hot AC station. Saying that teens are only into rhythmic music is ridiculous, my household is a good example, my 13 year-old sister likes pop/rock (esp. Fall Out Boy and Ashlee Simpson) and my 16 year-old brother likes country, my sister liked rhythmic/hip-hop when she was like 10, but she has matured and moved onto better music (yes, imo Ashlee Simpson is better than rhythmic/hip-hop crap) One of the reasons she got sick of the rhythmic music was because everyone went on and on about it, it's like radio and MTV are literally shoving this music style down teenagers throats by advertising it as popular, "Listen to 50 Cent and you'll be the coolest kid in school."
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 2, 2006 13:32:55 GMT -5
I don't really understand how a 13 year-old can relate to lyrics by 50 Cent and Eminem, unless they live in a high-crime area. Chr/Pop may be catering to the 6-17 crowd, but that doesn't mean teens do not want to hear Hot AC-leaning music, there is a format called Hot AC which those teens can listen to, therefore there would be no need for a call-out on Pop for Hot AC music if their city had a Hot AC station. Saying that teens are only into rhythmic music is ridiculous, my household is a good example, my 13 year-old sister likes pop/rock (esp. Fall Out Boy and Ashlee Simpson) and my 16 year-old brother likes country, my sister liked rhythmic/hip-hop when she was like 10, but she has matured and moved onto better music (yes, imo Ashlee Simpson is better than rhythmic/hip-hop crap) One of the reasons she got sick of the rhythmic music was because everyone went on and on about it, it's like radio and MTV are literally shoving this music style down teenagers throats by advertising it as popular, "Listen to 50 Cent and you'll be the coolest kid in school." Good post, Minusname... It pretty much illustrates what I'm talking about perfectly... these CHR/Pop PD's and those in charge of other so-called music outlets like MTV really are so out of touch with reality that they feel the need to shove garbage down the listeners/viewers throats... And yes, Ashlee is 100x better than this .50/Eminem crap that CHR/Pop is playing today.
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Tyler46
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Post by Tyler46 on Jan 2, 2006 20:03:40 GMT -5
I don't really understand how a 13 year-old can relate to lyrics by 50 Cent and Eminem, unless they live in a high-crime area. Chr/Pop may be catering to the 6-17 crowd, but that doesn't mean teens do not want to hear Hot AC-leaning music, there is a format called Hot AC which those teens can listen to, therefore there would be no need for a call-out on Pop for Hot AC music if their city had a Hot AC station. Saying that teens are only into rhythmic music is ridiculous, my household is a good example, my 13 year-old sister likes pop/rock (esp. Fall Out Boy and Ashlee Simpson) and my 16 year-old brother likes country, my sister liked rhythmic/hip-hop when she was like 10, but she has matured and moved onto better music (yes, imo Ashlee Simpson is better than rhythmic/hip-hop crap) One of the reasons she got sick of the rhythmic music was because everyone went on and on about it, it's like radio and MTV are literally shoving this music style down teenagers throats by advertising it as popular, "Listen to 50 Cent and you'll be the coolest kid in school." Good post, Minusname... It pretty much illustrates what I'm talking about perfectly... these CHR/Pop PD's and those in charge of other so-called music outlets like MTV really are so out of touch with reality that they feel the need to shove garbage down the listeners/viewers throats... And yes, Ashlee is 100x better than this .50/Eminem crap that CHR/Pop is playing today. That's your opinion. I know lots of people that actually like that .50/Eminem and at least Eminem has talent and can write great songs...unlike Ashlee Simpson.
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Post by Pink Champagne Ricochet on Jan 2, 2006 21:01:54 GMT -5
To me Eminem has infinitely more talent than Ashlee. 50 Cent is more equal, i'm not sure how much talent he actually has.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 2, 2006 21:39:23 GMT -5
Eminem has talent and can write great songs... Eminem may have talent and he may be able to write great songs, but he certainly has never shown this talent and he has yet to write a great song.
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MinusName
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Post by MinusName on Jan 2, 2006 23:33:05 GMT -5
Although I did say that I thought Ashlee Simpson was better than 50 Cent and Eminem (which is obviously my opinion), my point was that I don't see how teenagers are more likely to relate to their lyrics.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 3, 2006 0:30:37 GMT -5
Although I did say that I thought Ashlee Simpson was better than 50 Cent and Eminem (which is obviously my opinion), my point was that I don't see how teenagers are more likely to relate to their lyrics. I don't know the answer to that one either... obviously though, a lot of CHR/Pop PD's seem to think that they do know the answer... PD's at this format think teens can relate better to .50 and Eminem than Bon Jovi & Rob Thomas... which is pretty sad when you think about it, because we know that this isn't true... the kids are smarter than the PD's give them credit for being.
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Arson
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Post by Arson on Jan 3, 2006 1:28:28 GMT -5
What preteens and teens like is a function of society and trends.
Younger teens nowadays tend to like hip-hop/rap music (and many of them actually do) because they can dance to it. They think the songs are "funny", irreverant and have a good beat. Go to any junior high dance, and that's what you will hear, and for the most part, that's what they want to dance to. You can throw a few token pop-rock songs and ballads in there, but too many and they get bored of them. Speaking generally, of course.
As for Eminem - I would think many teens identify with the anger.
Whether one type of music is better than another is wholly personal preference... I think all anyone wants is a balance on the charts. Just as adding more hip-hop/rap to CHR/Pop has caused some listeners to drift away, adding more Hot AC type music will cause other listeners to drift away.
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Purple Dreams
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Post by Purple Dreams on Jan 3, 2006 7:32:14 GMT -5
I don't really understand how a 13 year-old can relate to lyrics by 50 Cent and Eminem, unless they live in a high-crime area. I think teens identify with Eminem's anger and rage and enjoy his humor. A lot of 50 Cent's singles have been sex songs with catchy beats. I also think that they have a glamorized impression of his lifestyle and the image he projects. Kids in well off neighborhoods may not be able to identify with him but they do think he's "cool".
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 3, 2006 13:38:44 GMT -5
I guess that there are a LOT of clueless PDs out there who believe that 12-18 year-old like Eminem and 50 Cent a LOT, and don't want to hear STRONG songwriters on their hometown CHR/Pop station, which is what the format was originally designed to be, as opposed to it's being strangled by a handful of producers who haven't shown much in the way of originality in the past several years.
The plagiarism/sampling trend is pretty dreadful as well.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 4, 2006 0:37:25 GMT -5
I think teens identify with Eminem's anger and rage and enjoy his humor. A lot of 50 Cent's singles have been sex songs with catchy beats. I also think that they have a glamorized impression of his lifestyle and the image he projects. Kids in well off neighborhoods may not be able to identify with him but they do think he's "cool". Well, I certainly don't know any teens that like Eminem... all the ones I know are turned off by his garbage that he calls music... Same goes for .50... obviously from the subject matter of most of his songs, there is only ONE thing on his mind most of the time... Once again, the teens I know that enjoy music thing his stuff is trash. Honestly, I don't even think the guy is worth a penny!
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 4, 2006 0:42:34 GMT -5
I guess that there are a LOT of clueless PDs out there who believe that 12-18 year-old like Eminem and 50 Cent a LOT, and don't want to hear STRONG songwriters on their hometown CHR/Pop station, which is what the format was originally designed to be, as opposed to it's being strangled by a handful of producers who haven't shown much in the way of originality in the past several years. The plagiarism/sampling trend is pretty dreadful as well. As usual, well put Marv... I'm sure you could do a real good job at fixing these CHR/Pop stations... unfortunately, it doesn't look like they want to be fixed... :( I agree about the plagiarism/sampling thing... every once in a GREAT while, you'll see some decent sampling and the song actually incorparates it well... but the vast majority just completely butcher the song to pieces, the latest best example I have is of Martika's "Toy Soliders"... talk about a great song DESTROYED by sampling!
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Purple Dreams
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Post by Purple Dreams on Jan 4, 2006 5:37:21 GMT -5
I think teens identify with Eminem's anger and rage and enjoy his humor. A lot of 50 Cent's singles have been sex songs with catchy beats. I also think that they have a glamorized impression of his lifestyle and the image he projects. Kids in well off neighborhoods may not be able to identify with him but they do think he's "cool". Well, I certainly don't know any teens that like Eminem... all the ones I know are turned off by his garbage that he calls music... Same goes for .50... obviously from the subject matter of most of his songs, there is only ONE thing on his mind most of the time... Once again, the teens I know that enjoy music thing his stuff is trash. Honestly, I don't even think the guy is worth a penny! Those guys, especially Eminem sells tons of albums so it's obvious someone does like his music. If radio plays Eminem I don't think you can argue that they're supporting songs no one wants to hear or that airplay isn't translating into album sales.
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Chato
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Post by Chato on Jan 4, 2006 9:09:06 GMT -5
There's a big difference between RobThomas/GooGooDolls and Weezer/GreenDay . BeverlyHills and WMUWSE received tons of airplay from Rock stations and the videos did well on MTV , so there was proof that these songs did well with young listeners . Better Days and TIHAHB on the other hand never got played on either the Rock formats or MTV . I'm pretty sure that there are many young listeners who like HAC music but they don't need to listen to CHR stations since almost every big city does have a HAC as well and the small town CHRs aren't into Rhythmic music as much.
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Krypton46
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Post by Krypton46 on Jan 5, 2006 0:04:37 GMT -5
There's a big difference between RobThomas/GooGooDolls and Weezer/GreenDay . BeverlyHills and WMUWSE received tons of airplay from Rock stations and the videos did well on MTV , so there was proof that these songs did well with young listeners . Better Days and TIHAHB on the other hand never got played on either the Rock formats or MTV . I'm pretty sure that there are many young listeners who like HAC music but they don't need to listen to CHR stations since almost every big city does have a HAC as well and the small town CHRs aren't into Rhythmic music as much. I don't have MTV so I wouldn't know which videos are more popular there or which ones get the most airtime. Did "You & Me" get a lot of airtime on MTV? What about "Scars"? And if PDs and DJs think that the younger market wants to hear solely rhythmic/urban and not HAC/rock on pop stations, then who's to say that VJs don't have the same mindset when it comes to which videos people want to see?
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 5, 2006 2:38:14 GMT -5
What Simply Red did to 'I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)' was also unconscionable.
But Britney's ultra-lame remake of the flat-out perfect 'My Prerogative' was EXTREMELY wretched!!!!!!
Insofar as small-market stations not playing a lot of rhythmic music, take a look at the playlist of a powerhouse such as Z-104 (WZEE Madison, Wisc.) on the R&R website, and see how well balanced and mixed their playlist is.
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Chato
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Post by Chato on Jan 5, 2006 9:53:35 GMT -5
Yeah , Z104 is a good example for a well balanced small-market station but I hope they'll push some of the recurrents away now that the year-end countdowns are done .
krypton , what I was trying to say is that , since pop is a youth oriented format, pop PDs are looking for music which does well with young listeners . Success on the rock formats , MTV or the rhythmic format is proof that a song resonates well with young listeners so pop stations tend to add songs based on strong performances on such formats.
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Krypton46
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Post by Krypton46 on Jan 5, 2006 15:26:32 GMT -5
I know what you're saying but that isn't always the case though. Just because radio gives some songs minimal airplay and doesn't play others doesn't mean that people don't love the song and have no interest in hearing it. "Hung Up" would be a great example of that. The song is a worldwide smash, acheived amazing sales, performed extraordinarily well on TRL and was a top ten hit on the most relevant chart in the US yet STILL its airplay hardly even changed before any of that ever happened. So obviosuly PDs didn't "look" hard enough in that case with a song that the majority of (younger) people loved, which shows that they're still out of touch with what they want to hear on the radio.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 5, 2006 23:36:08 GMT -5
When did CHR/Pop become a format that catered to the 6-17 demo??? This seems to have been a recent development to me... 18-34 year old women used to be the target demo, but it sure doesn't look that way anymore...
MTV has been a big mess for a very long time and really isn't representative of what the people really want to see or hear... it's obvious they have an agenda there and favor certain types or artists and music... VH1 is much better... though it could be a lot better if it wanted to be...
"Hung Up", even though it's not my favorite song is a good example of what is wrong with CHR/Pop today... I wouldn't doubt if it was top 10 most requested at any station that gave it a chance... yet, the stations just gave it the hook REALLY early... I'm going to guess low call-out scores are to blame... I've always thought call-out was overrated...
As for Eminem, his stuff is ALL garbage... and people only buy it because of all of the hype...
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 5, 2006 23:45:24 GMT -5
What Simply Red did to 'I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)' was also unconscionable. But Britney's ultra-lame remake of the flat-out perfect 'My Prerogative' was EXTREMELY wretched!!!!!! Insofar as small-market stations not playing a lot of rhythmic music, take a look at the playlist of a powerhouse such as Z-104 (WZEE Madison, Wisc.) on the R&R website, and see how well balanced and mixed their playlist is. I totally agree about that with the Hall & Oates and Bobby Brown records... Simply Red and Britney just killed those classics... AWFUL!!! Great example with Z-104... they'r a good model for what a CHR/Pop station is supposed to sound like... (my only gripe is I don't see enough gold or recurrents)... it's all about balance... when Pop has historically done best it's been a balanced format... unfortunately, the well-balanced stations are few and far between at the moment... Here's a sample hour of what they played tonight: 9:50 Madonna - Hung Up 9:53 T-Pain - I'm Sprung 9:57 Lifehouse - You & Me 10:00 D4L - Laffy Taffy 10:04 Natasha Bedingfield - Unwritten 10:08 All-American Rejects - Dirty Little Secret 10:11 Ciara - 1/2 Step 10:14 *****cat Dolls - Stickwitu 10:17 Fall Out Boy - Sugar, We're Goin' Down 10:21 Beyonce - Check On It 10:23 Bo Bice - Real Thing 10:27 Stop Break 10:31 Trina - Here We Go 10:34 3 Doors Down - Let Me Go 10:38 Gwen Stefani - Luxurious 10:42 Staind - Right Here 10:46 Young Jeezy - Soul Survivor
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 6, 2006 23:31:31 GMT -5
I'm glad I NEVER heard that dreadful remake of 'Toy Soldiers'; that song was a MASTERPIECE, with shimmering production, a la the great singles from Roxette's equally DYNAMITE debut CD, and Jane Child's self-produced and written charttopper 'Don't Wanna Fall In Love'.
In sofar as those golden days of the early eighties, the fact that eight of the top 10 singles of the eighties hit #1 within one twenty-six month period (April 1981 to June 1983) shows how strong and great-sounding the format sounded and performed ratings-wise back then, with KIIS's 10.0 in the fall of 1984 certainly THE story of the decade ratings-wise at the format.
Even the early nineties were great for the format, and especially for females, with Ms. Child, Sinead O'Connor, Alannah Myles and Lisa Stansfield hitting the top, combined with Madonna's best single of her career 'Vogue', as well as Wilson Phillips, Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, and more smashes from Roxette.
But the format continued to overreact to the success of the CHR/Rhythmic format, and playing mediocre songs over 100 times per week didn't do the format much good either.
Except for the 1997 explosion of alternative music at the format, alongside schlock such as the Spice Girls, the last few years of the nineties saw the format continuing to move away from being a mass-appeal format, and concentrated almost exclusively on the 12-24 year-olds that Emmis-owned CHR/Rhythmic stations (including WQHT & KPWR) were intensely targeting.
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