John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 27, 2006 23:56:01 GMT -5
^^ If you look st the Billboard "Hot 100" you'll get this picture... but if you look at the CHR/Pop chart in R&R it doesn't look quite as bad...
Still, overall, the stuff on today is way worse than say 5-9 years ago when the format last had some good sounding years...
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 28, 2006 1:10:56 GMT -5
With the exception of the explosion of Alternative music at CHR/Pop in 1997, that's been the case for several years running now, except that it's gotten MUCH worese in the past 3-4 years.
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JWGucciEnvy
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Post by JWGucciEnvy on Jan 28, 2006 3:09:33 GMT -5
First, Growing up as a teenager in 90's, alot of kids where into The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, etc. Some who were into punk, liked The Ramones and Sex pistols. All these bands were out with records before we were born.
So I don't think it's the age thing. It's the cool factor, That they were the first.
I think that is why Madonna's Hung Up has done so well.on TRL. For most kids that are watching Hung Up, weren't even born when Like A Virgin was out.
Second, there is a major difference in Urban and Rythmic radio. Rhythmic tends to play the booty dance songs/or the hot urban guy singing about love. Urban will play just about anything that has a Urban sound. It could be rap, r&b, gospel, ballads, neo-soul, etc.
In my city of Cincinnati, its the same everywhere else. On My KISS Fm, they only play Gwen, Kelly, and once in awhile a Nickelback song. The only time they played the Mr. Brightside by the Killers was at late at night.
Nobody past the age of 15, wants to listen to KISS for one reason only, not because its plays rap/r&B, because NO ONE wants to listen a song 5 times in 4 hours. When they only play 6 songs in that hour, because its rush hour and its time to have talk radio.
My Hot AC, back in 90's I thought was awful, but now they play bascially everything that is in the BILLBOARD Top 40, except for hardcore rap.
And finally I believe the reasons why 12 years old like hip hop it is still shocking to their parents. For most parents, hip hop is still shocking. And every period of rock n roll era, the kids go to what is shocking. Since there isn't really anything shocking in pop or rock, what else do they got to go too.
It's all about the rebel factor.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 28, 2006 13:46:05 GMT -5
With the exception of the explosion of Alternative music at CHR/Pop in 1997, that's been the case for several years running now, except that it's gotten MUCH worese in the past 3-4 years. Yup... other than a little glimmer of hope in 2002 (Avril, Vanessa & Michelle), there hasn't been much good to speak of the past 3-4 years in CHR/Pop... that's for sure....
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Post by perfectsituation on Jan 28, 2006 15:09:18 GMT -5
It wasn't in trouble 'till about yesterday. Now it's just gonna keep on going downhill...
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Post by Pink Champagne Ricochet on Jan 28, 2006 16:41:21 GMT -5
It wasn't in trouble 'till about yesterday. Now it's just gonna keep on going downhill... Yeah, I basically agree with that. I didn't think there was a huge problem with the format until very recently...it was pretty balanced and good, it's only NOW that Pop is gonna become another rhythmic/urban clone completely...I mean I like rap, but if I want to hear it 24/7 i've got other stations for that, and the "hot AC" station here is really an AC piece of crap that's late on everything.
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Mega248
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Post by Mega248 on Jan 30, 2006 19:41:18 GMT -5
It wasn't in trouble 'till about yesterday. Now it's just gonna keep on going downhill... So did you vote no again or did you vote yes this time?
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Post by perfectsituation on Jan 30, 2006 20:03:48 GMT -5
I didn't vote before... but yeah i voted yes.
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Jan 30, 2006 22:04:01 GMT -5
Is this the longest stretch that Top 40 has been in the doldrums? The post-Disco, pre-Brit Synth era was what, about three years? The Top 40 draught of the early 70s was about four years ... Not sure what went on in the early 90s with all those Top 40s stations flipping to Hot Acs ...
Also isn't this the first time in forty years that CHR has been losing ratings to another format (CHR Rhythmic)? So arguably this massive Hip-Hop movement (which started in the mid 90s with Billboard Hot 100 but took 6 or so years to hit CHR / Pop) could be the new norm and thus not just a cyclical flavor trend like Fred Bronson always assures us everything in Pop Music is?
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MinusName
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Post by MinusName on Jan 30, 2006 22:13:18 GMT -5
I would also agree that Pop was not in serious trouble until a few days ago, but then again only the Pop chart itself is in trouble, because the stations are still there, they just aren't being reflected. I have a feeling that the Pop chart would look awesome if every Pop station in the country was monitored by the chart. But of course we wouldn't want that now would we, because Hot AC songs would be doing too well and it just wouldn't be accurate to see a Hot AC song doing better than a rhythmic/urban song because they are oh so much more popular.
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Slinky
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Post by Slinky on Jan 30, 2006 22:24:21 GMT -5
It depends on how you define the doldrums. CHR started its decline around 1990, bottomed out in 1994, then came back bigtime at the end of 1996.
This time, the decline started in fall of 2000, bottomed out in 2004, and now seems to be coming back a little. It's actually similar to last time so far, which would put us up for a Pop revival towards the end of this year.
There are a lot of differences though. In 1994, the doldrums were worse. There were no Pop stations AT ALL in many markets, including NY (Z100 was Alt.), Philly (Q102 was Rhy.), and DC (Z104 was still 3 years away). It makes me think that the comeback won't be nearly as dramatic as last time. Another big difference is that this is the first time Rhythmic has made it into the small markets.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 31, 2006 1:44:54 GMT -5
There's a great thread I started about Clear Channel which talks a lot about KIIS and other contemporary stations on the www.radio-info.com site... If you're REALLY into the programming and other stuff that goes on in the biz, I strongly recommend you sign up... a lot of people in the industry post there...
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 31, 2006 12:03:20 GMT -5
But Hot AC unquestionably SHOULD be the best sounding format on the planet these days because KIIS-FM and other once SUPER-successful CHR/Powerhouses have been chasing the same 12-24 target audience which CHR/Rhythmic stations (at least those owned by EMMIS, such as KPWR and WPLJ) have zeroed in on since the late eighties has resulted in MILLIONS of adult listeers sending Hot AC stations into the top 3 (and frequently to #1) in their respective markets.
There should also be LOTS more 'all-eighties' stations out there as well, but an addiction to research and an overreliance on consultants has sucked the creativity out both formats, and especially Hot AC stations nationwde, all of which SHOULD sound as terrific as WNCI, WZPL<,KIIS and TONS of other CHR/Pop powerhouses USED to sound like in the eighties.
If CHR/Pop stations were the mass-appeal stations today that they were throughout the eigties, that would undoubtedly be a HUGE boost to the retail music biz as well.
NONE of the core artists at CHR/Pop today have the pull to draw older listeners (ages 25+) into the stores in the same manner which Garth Brooks, Michael Jackson, The Eagles, Elton Joh, U2, Bruce Springsteen, Don Henley, Stevie Wonder, George Michael, Billy Joel and LOTS of other single format or even MULTI-format megastars used to do so VERY well during the seventies and eighties, and a huge chunk of the nineties as well.
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billme
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Post by billme on Jan 31, 2006 21:32:55 GMT -5
From an ownership viewpoint, the format is in trouble if billings drop. KIIS-FM did see a drop this past year, so it remains if this was a short-time issue or a part of a long-term trend.
If you heard Dees' last day on the station, this was his main point that ratings come & go while if your sales drop you are in a heap of trouble. Dees championed his billings' success on his last day.
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No Brake$
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Post by No Brake$ on Feb 1, 2006 7:44:46 GMT -5
The chart is SO bad right now, I mean absolutely HORRIBLE.
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Slinky
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Post by Slinky on Feb 1, 2006 11:40:32 GMT -5
From an ownership viewpoint, the format is in trouble if billings drop. KIIS-FM did see a drop this past year, so it remains if this was a short-time issue or a part of a long-term trend. If you heard Dees' last day on the station, this was his main point that ratings come & go while if your sales drop you are in a heap of trouble. Dees championed his billings' success on his last day. True, but billing is a lagging indicator compared to ratings. KIIS was down in ratings in 2004, so they were down in billing in 2005. They were up in ratings in 2005 so they'll probably be up in billing in 2006.
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Feb 2, 2006 0:18:53 GMT -5
I don't know if the term 'in the doldrums' refers to the ratings problems which the format has had recently, or to the quality of music in any given year.
But since the format has definitely leaned FAR more to the rhythmic side over the past 16 yeras than it used to prior to 1989, then the format COULD be considered to be in the doldrums.
1990 and 1991 were both good years for the format IMHO (In My Humble Opinion), even with the onslaught of hard-core rap songs starting in the very late eighties, but the rest of the decade marked a noticeable increase in rhythmic and rap product, even as singles such as 'The Sign' and 'I Love You Always Forever' became HUGE records and TRUE pop singles found it harder and harder to hit the top after Donna Lewis's 1996 megasmash.
Thank goodness the Hot AC format came along in the early nineties, although Clear Channel's clueless dweebs have certainly destroyed THAT format as well, which SHOULD be the BEST sounding format on the radio today.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Feb 2, 2006 1:49:36 GMT -5
Marv, as always you're dead on right... and Clear Channel seems intent on running CHR and Hot AC into the ground in the not too distant future...
KIIS actually was flat in the ratings for 2005... ended the year within 0.1 pt of where they started and actually fell a total 7% (4.6 to 4.3) the final 2 books... no gain despite CHR/Urban Power 106 losing 30% of it's audience (4.9 to 3.5) last year... I imagine if people at Power were still running their ship right, KIIS wouldn't even have a 4 share at this point...
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billme
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Post by billme on Feb 2, 2006 22:48:11 GMT -5
The point Dees was trying to make on his last day on KIIS is that even with music changes & ratings ups and downs, I was responsible for KIIS-FM being the #1 billing CHR station in the nation. Thus, why are they firing me...I did everything the owners want and this is the way they are treating me. It's about $ not the silly ratings game and I left the station as the #1 money producer.
Although I don't have the information in front of me, I clearly remember reading that KIIS-FM billings were down to 6-11 in the CHR format in '05.
I will add if you are aiming for lower demos that it will be more difficult to produce higher renvues.
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Feb 5, 2006 0:17:56 GMT -5
CC, if anything, is a company LOADED with beancounters, and Dees was tied for SEVENTH in morning drive when CC sacked him.
It took Ryan Seacrest over a year to get his legs under him, but he was FORTY in morning drive in the spring book in the ultra-important 25-54 demo, and he beat Big Boy, Kevin & Bean & Howard Stern in the process.
CHR/Pop stations just don't pull adult listeners after mornigndrive the way that they used to, and especially in afternoon drive and at night.
If CHR/Pop ever DOES become a mass-appeal format again in most of the 30 or 40 largest markets and/or cities, then it MIGHT stage a comeback!!!
But playing 'Gold Digger' or 'Over And Over' 100+ times per week is NOT going to bring adults back to the format; they've already found their musical needed VERY well-satisfied at Hot AC, Smooth Jazz, Country, Oldies, or the ultra-hot 'Jack-FM' format.
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