Is the CHR/Pop format in trouble???

[Love Plastic Love]

Im just ready for another turnover in music. I chose maybe...because I think it IS in trouble, but its a cyclical type of trouble.

[Say It Right Only On Sundays]

Actually, I think the teens not liking Urban music is moot really. I think the teenage market is fickle. All the teens I know genre hop so much it isn't even funny. I think that is part of the problem these days audiences are being so fickle it is hard for radio to pin point what people really want to hear.

[John77]

themakshack said:

josh1414 said:

Country was almost never played on pop. I'd say this year was one of the first times we've had 2 country songs go Top 40 in one year (Live like you were dying and You'll think of me)

They did play country crossover back during the late 90's and early 2000's.

Shania had two singles peaking inside the top 5 and another two peaking inside the top 20 between 1998 and 2000.

LeAnn Rimes had one single peaking inside the top 5 and another one peaking inside the top 10 between 1997 and 2002.

Faith Hill had three tracks peaking inside the top 20 between 1998 and 2001.

Lonestar's "Amazed" peaked at #6 back in 2000, while Dixie Chick's "Landslide" peaked at #12 back in 2003.

So yes, CHR/Pop did play country more often before.

Nice info... exactly what I was going to say... and you saved me some work of digging up my old R&R's. :)

At least Keith Urban managed to crack the Top 40 (and Top 10 Hot AC) this year (albeit with a 3 year old song)... maybe some of the newer more pop-sounding Country acts such as Carrie Underwood and Big & Rich will spur more pop stations to consider more crossover country hits...

[John77]

minusname said:

Some people here are saying how Pop is suppose to be playing what is popular and "Rap/Urban" music is popular?  If you look at the album sales from the past week, you will find several albums that do not fit that genre, I think it is pretty obvious that this rhythmic stage is not as popular as people make it out to be, sure they have high album sales, but so do many other artists, such as Carrie Underwood, Kenny Chesney, and even Enya (who sold like 3-4 million on her last album) all who have a strong top 10 showing this past week.

I myself am still waiting on a Hot AC station in Kansas City, there is one in Lawrence and St. Joe, but they don't come in clearly all the time. It makes me mad when all of the smaller cities around the area have awesome Hot AC stations (Des Moines, Wichita, I think Omaha has one too).

Exactly... CHR/Pop by definition is supposed to be playing what is popular... if Carrie Underwood, Enya and Kenny Chesney are what's selling at the moment then they should at least be considered at the format... and that isn't happening much at the moment... does anyone else remember the days when it was VERY common to hear Kenny G on a top 40 station???

Good luck on getting that Hot AC in K.C... If the station is done right, they can work and sound real good... I'm fortunate that I can listen to 5 stations that are considered Hot AC where I live, though one (KBIG 104) really isn't a Hot AC - they just can't find anyplace else to put it in the trades...

[Love Plastic Love]

I have a HOt Ac station that I adore around here-I would die if someone changed it. It reminds me of what someone else said-Hot Ac is becoming what Pop should be. I hear some country, pure pop, alternative, pop rock, and r&b on there. The only thing missing is the hardcore rap. The Hot Ac station has more variety than any of my pop stations.

[Arson]

minusname said:

I disagree with "rhythmic" music being popular among teens, I don't know what teens you know, but at my high school "rock" was the in-thing.  I went to a high school football game and the crowd was singing along to "Photograph,"

I've noticed from working at different schools that rap/hip-hop is very popular among teens age 12-15, and it is very evident at dances and when they have their ipods playing in class.  These kids (who also identify with younger acts like Ashlee Simpson and Kelly Clarkson) are probably the main listeners of CHR/Pop radio right now.  They'll know Nickelback or Green Day since you hear their songs everywhere, but the focus is on rap/hip-hop.

Older teens age 16 up tend to prefer rock/alternative music, but they listen to rock/alt stations, not CHR/Pop stations.

Of course, this is speaking in generalizations, but unfortunately, this age-trend has had an effect on the state of CHR/Pop radio.

[John77]

underneathobsidian said:

I have a HOt Ac station that I adore around here-I would die if someone changed it. It reminds me of what someone else said-Hot Ac is becoming what Pop should be. I hear some country, pure pop, alternative, pop rock, and r&b on there. The only thing missing is the hardcore rap. The Hot Ac station has more variety than any of my pop stations.

All 3 of the Hot AC stations here where I live (KBBY - B95.1, KRUZ 97.5 and KFYV - Live 105.5) play a lot more variety than the Top 40 we have (KIIS)... KBBY really is a top 40 station in my opinion... they play a little of everything... very much like your Hot AC station, but they also play quite a few urban acts like Shaggy, Mariah, Pink, *****cat Dolls and many many others... By far the best sounding station in So.Cal IMHO...

[MinusName]

gil said:

minusname said:

I disagree with "rhythmic" music being popular among teens, I don't know what teens you know, but at my high school "rock" was the in-thing.  I went to a high school football game and the crowd was singing along to "Photograph,"

I've noticed from working at different schools that rap/hip-hop is very popular among teens age 12-15, and it is very evident at dances and when they have their ipods playing in class.  These kids (who also identify with younger acts like Ashlee Simpson and Kelly Clarkson) are probably the main listeners of CHR/Pop radio right now.  They'll know Nickelback or Green Day since you hear their songs everywhere, but the focus is on rap/hip-hop.

Older teens age 16 up tend to prefer rock/alternative music, but they listen to rock/alt stations, not CHR/Pop stations.

Of course, this is speaking in generalizations, but unfortunately, this age-trend has had an effect on the state of CHR/Pop radio.

That's what I noticed, I guess when I said teens I was thinking the 16-18 age group, but yeah, the 12-15 age range is into the "rhythmic/urban" music because it has been labeled by who knows who as "cool," and of course at that age kids will do anything to be cool. Around the age of 15-16 teens mature slightly and so do their music preferences, last year in high school most people were into a lot of the alternative bands, especially the ones who don't get a ton of recognition like Brand New, Hawthorne Heights, Fall Out Boy (at the time nobody knew who they were) etc.. Older teens seem to like being unique and discovering their own music, unlike young teens who take whatever they hear their friends talking about. I bet if Pop began playing more rock a lot of teens would drop the rhythmic/urban crap that they think is so cool. But honestly, if anyone is basing the whole entire world of Pop music on what a 12 year-old thinks we've got a major problem. Maybe that explains why Jojo went #1.

[themakshack]

One thing that has popped up in my mind is: What exactly should be the goal of CHR/Pop radio? Should CHR/Pop be playing what is popular right now or Should CHR/Pop be playing what is popular in each genre... I think that's a good question to consider.

[John77]

themakshack said:

One thing that has popped up in my mind is: What exactly should be the goal of CHR/Pop radio? Should CHR/Pop be playing what is popular right now or Should CHR/Pop be playing what is popular in each genre... I think that's a good question to consider.

Well, all I know is that the times in the past when Top 40 radio has done the best are the times when they embraced artists of all formats... the late 90's (specifically 1996 thru 2000) was when the format last sounded really good IMHO...

[MinusName]

john77 said:

themakshack said:

One thing that has popped up in my mind is: What exactly should be the goal of CHR/Pop radio? Should CHR/Pop be playing what is popular right now or Should CHR/Pop be playing what is popular in each genre... I think that's a good question to consider.

Well, all I know is that the times in the past when Top 40 radio has done the best are the times when they embraced artists of all formats...  the late 90's (specifically 1996 thru 2000) was when the format last sounded really good IMHO...

I agree, during that period the best of each format was doing well on Pop radio, unlike today where it's basically everything rhythmic/urban is playing, plus a few Rock and Hot AC songs, but rarely any AC or Country songs, not even Pop songs get played on Pop anymore.
I also agree on the question about Pop: what is the goal? In my mind I always thought it was what was popular, I don't think it should be based just on a few songs from each format, but what really is popular, I think popularity should be a calculation of multiple things from album sales to video play, which means Country should be doing a lot better on Pop radio than what it is (It's not like I am a huge country fan, I'm just trying to stand up for all of these decent-talented musicians who are getting overlooked by the not so decent and talented acts that make up the rhythmic/urban music scene).

[Marv]

As someone who's old enough (53) to remember when KIIS-FM was a true MASS-APPEAL CHR/Pop station (and hit a stupendous 10.0 rating in the summer of 1984), here are some of my opinions regarding why CHR/Pop is not doing nearly as well as it was in the eighties or seventies, or sixties.

The eighties were a STUPENDOUS decade for the format thanks to KIIS, WNCI (Columbus OH. for my money the #1 CHR/Pop station in America today, thanks to it's 10.0 rating in America's 12th largest city), WZPL in Indianapolis, small market powerhouses such as Z-104 (WZEE Madison, Wisc.) and lots of others. The fact that on any of those stations you could hear EVERY genre of music out there within a one-hour block was what made it impossible for you to turn the dial; the 'power singles' were rarely played more than 6 times a day, and the station had a MUCH larger listening audience because of the much wider variety of music on CHR/Pop stations.

Even in a year such as 1989, where we had to put up with such schlock as NKOTB, Milli Vanilli, Paula Abdul and other lightweights, the format was EXCEPTIONALLY well-balanced and still very popular, thanks to strong CDs such as Don Henley's 'The End Of The Innocence, state-of the-art REAL CHR/Pop music (such as an extraordinary singer like Marie Frederikksson of ROXETTE), AOR format staples such as Genesis, Def Leppard, Guns n'Roses, Bruce Sprinsgteen, Bryan Adams, Bon Jovi and LOTS of others, AC/Smooth Jazz stars such as Phil Collins, Enya, Bruce Hornsby and the Range and others and state-of-the-art rhythmic/rap masterpieces, with Bobby Brown's 'My Prerogative' still serving as the gold standard SIXTEEN+ years later.

The eighties were also the epitome of what CHR/Pop was designed to be when Bill Drake re-invented the format here in Los Angeles in 1965 at 93/KHJ; it was designed to be a SONG (or songwriter) driven format, as opposed to being a PRODUCER-driven format as has been the case for several years, excluding the explosion of Hot AC/.Alternative music which dominated R&R's top 10 singles of 1997--Jewel, The Wallflowers, etc.

The eighties were marked by some of the best songwriters who've ever existed, including Stevie Wonder, Elton John, Paul McCartney, Don Henley, Michael Jackson, Sting/The Police, Phil Collins/Genesis, and TONS of others; most of today's best songwriters are VERY hard to find at CHR/Pop radio these days.

First of all, if a mass-appeal CHR/Pop station is going to return to LA, KIIS will have to be the station to do so, and to return to where it was in the eighties; a MASS--APPEAL radio station which played ALL genres of music.

As several of you have already stated, the fact that KIIS-FM (and LOTS of other 'alleged' CHR/Pop stations out there play over 90% rhythmic/rap.urban stuff is insane; there is NO reason for the year-end CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic and Urban charts (as well as the weekly ones) to look so much alike!!!!!!

The fact that KIIS-FM is #1 in LA MIGHT be a reason to celebrate the format, but the fact remains that Power 106 and KIIS have both been LOSING listeners over the course of the past 12 months, but that Power 106 has been losing listeners FASTER than KIIS; that 4.4 rating for KIIS (which also include simulcast sister KVVS in Palmdale) is unquestionably the worst rating for any #1 radio station in any major market, especially one as closely watched as Los Angeles.

The reason that songs such as 'Over And Over' were averaging NINETY-THREE+ SPSPW (Spins Per Station Per Week) is that the research and consultants who have smothered all of the formats out there have determined that CHR/Pop's primary audience (12-24) really wants to hear the hits played a LOT, owing to the very fickle nature of its young and easily bored audience, according to lots of articles I've read in R&R & BB over the years.

NO radio station aimed at the ultra-important adults 25-54 listening block has to play their 'power singles' more than 6 or 7 times per day.

This could go MUCH longer, but the format won't reclaim it's glory days of the eighties until it returns to its roots as a MASS-APPEAL format, and KIIS-FM will have to lead the way.

Ryan Seacrest MUST be complimented for having SOLID numbers in the 25-54 age group in morning drive, as well as in overall audience size. Two books ago he beat Howard Stern, KROQ's Kevin and Bean and Power 106's Big Boy in total audience, and he was #4 in morning drive in the 25-54 demo.

While his 25-54 numbers are no match for those of the stupendous Kidd Kraddick of Dallas's KHKS (who's unquestionably the #1 morning radio personality in America, succeeding Rick Dees), the fact that Dees was tied for SEVENTH in morning drive among all listeners when Clear Channel sacked him), whereas Seacrest is in the top 5 today, means that Seacrest has PLENTY to be proud of, even if the format doesn't, according to myself and numerous others on this board.

[John77]

marv said:

As someone who's old enough (53) to remember when KIIS-FM was a true MASS-APPEAL CHR/Pop station (and hit a stupendous 10.0 rating in the summer of 1984), here are some of my opinions regarding why CHR/Pop is not doing nearly as well as it was in the eighties or seventies, or sixties.

The eighties were a STUPENDOUS decade for the format thanks to KIIS, WNCI (Columbus OH. for my money the #1 CHR/Pop station in America today, thanks to it's 10.0 rating in America's 12th largest city), WZPL in Indianapolis, small market powerhouses such as Z-104 (WZEE Madison, Wisc.) and lots of others. The fact that on any of those stations you could hear EVERY genre of music out there within a one-hour block was what made it impossible for you to turn the dial; the 'power singles' were rarely played more than 6 times a day, and the station had a MUCH larger listening audience because of the much wider variety of music on CHR/Pop stations.

Even in a year such as 1989, where we had to put up with such schlock as NKOTB, Milli Vanilli, Paula Abdul and other lightweights, the format was EXCEPTIONALLY well-balanced and still very popular, thanks to strong CDs such as Don Henley's 'The End Of The Innocence, state-of the-art REAL CHR/Pop music (such as an extraordinary singer like Marie Frederikksson of ROXETTE), AOR format staples such as Genesis, Def Leppard, Guns n'Roses, Bruce Sprinsgteen, Bryan Adams, Bon Jovi and LOTS of others, AC/Smooth Jazz stars such as Phil Collins, Enya, Bruce Hornsby and the Range and others and state-of-the-art rhythmic/rap masterpieces, with Bobby Brown's 'My Prerogative' still serving as the gold standard SIXTEEN+ years later.

Great post, Marv!

I really first got into music and studying the trades at the end of '82/early '83... when I was 15, so you've got some time on me... still I remember how fresh stuff like "Down Under" and "Dirty Laundry" sounded on the radio... it was a fun time and yes, I do remember when KIIS had that 10.0 rating in '84... that was quite an amazing number....

1989 was definitely another time I remember well... Pirate Radio was launched by Scott Shannon here and between KIIS, Pirate and Power 106, you could pretty much hear any song in the top 50 of the Hot 100 chart... CHR as a format was very vibrant in this market at that time and hasn't seen another time like it since.... I probably own more CD's from music that came out in that year than any other...

[Krypton46]

I wouldn't say the format is in trouble, if anything I think this year is a step up from a few years ago though that isn't saying much.  I think if you look at what songs have been hits this year and which songs are on the year-end charts (Top 50), you'll find that there's almost as many non hip hop/R&B songs as there are hip hop/R&B whereas in 2003 say, there wasn't as much of a balance, at least that's what it felt like.  Is there any room for improvement?  Definitely.  I think there are some songs out there that have no business being played on pop radio (Laffy Taffy, anything by the Ying Yang Twins or any other hardcore hip hop song, for instance) but that can almost be said about every other year.  As long as there's a balance in what radio plays similar to what there was in the 90s, I don't see any trouble blooming ahead.

As for the KIIS-FM thing, ICAM.  You don't even have to be a regular listener to that station to realize that all they play is hip hop/R&B.  Just look at their playlist or look at the last 10 songs they've recently played within the hour on their website and you'll see that 99% of it is all urban.  I hope other stations don't follow in their footsteps and instead are going by what Z100 is playing, even though they have their own problems also but nothing like what KIIS-FM is dealing with IMO.         

[John77]

krypton46 said:

As for the KIIS-FM thing, ICAM.  You don't even have to be a regular listener to that station to realize that all they play is hip hop/R&B.  Just look at their playlist or look at the last 10 songs they've recently played within the hour on their website and you'll see that 99% of it is all urban.  I hope other stations don't follow in their footsteps and instead are going by what Z100 is playing, even though they have their own problems also but nothing like what KIIS-FM is dealing with IMO.         

They may be #1 in the ratings in L.A. right now, but I don't see that lasting too long...

[Marv]

Given the dreadful state of radio here in LA these days, that 4.40 rating is still TERRIBLE for the #1 radio station in ANY of the the nation's thirty largest cities, especially when a mass-appeal CHR/Pop powerhouse like WNCI in Columbus has a spiffy TEN share!!!!!!!

Since Power 1-6 and KIIS have both been LOSING listenerrs for most of this year, what the heck is wrong with today's hip=hop product?

Is there too much plagiarism, such as Kanye West sampling Ray Charles or Madonna sampling an ABBA single, for crying out load????????????

[Minor Scratch]

Maybe. The variety and quality of music is not problematic, but its more of a PD problem and how they deliver the music and rotation to the masses. Personally, I feel the product coming out of the Rap/Hip-Hop and R&B spectrum in the last year has been better than ever (minus songs like Laffy Taffy and Here We Go).

Pop's main trouble right now is trying to emulate and compete with Rhythmic and Urban markets, which Pop PDs in large markets mainly do when Urban/Rhy stations get more share than Pop. In Atlanta, where hiphop is tremendously popular, Pop stations still receive a core audience with their AC-leaning variety, however in LA where hiphop is popular as well, its a totally different story with Power, KIIS, KDAY and the Urban all similar-sounding.

The variety that hit the charts in 2005 is pretty defined, unlike 2002-2004 (hiphop, alternative, pop-punk, r&b, reggaeton, dancehall, techno/techno-ballad, AC, and country tracks all had decent chart peaks this year). There is definitely no shortage of good music lately. But promoting a station with a unique sound and variety is what people miss most about Pop in the 90s, and this is def what is hurting the format in general.

[John77]

filestoragebox said:

Maybe. The variety and quality of music is not problematic, but its more of a PD problem and how they deliver the music and rotation to the masses. Personally, I feel the product coming out of the Rap/Hip-Hop and R&B spectrum in the last year has been better than ever (minus songs like Laffy Taffy and Here We Go).

Pop's main trouble right now is trying to emulate and compete with Rhythmic and Urban markets, which Pop PDs in large markets mainly do when Urban/Rhy stations get more share than Pop. In Atlanta, where hiphop is tremendously popular, Pop stations still receive a core audience with their AC-leaning variety, however in LA where hiphop is popular as well, its a totally different story with Power, KIIS, KDAY and the Urban all similar-sounding.

The variety that hit the charts in 2005 is pretty defined, unlike 2002-2004 (hiphop, alternative, pop-punk, r&b, reggaeton, dancehall, techno/techno-ballad, AC, and country tracks all had decent chart peaks this year). There is definitely no shortage of good music lately. But promoting a station with a unique sound and variety is what people miss most about Pop in the 90s, and this is def what is hurting the format in general.

Nice post...I'm thinking a lot of us here could be better PD's than most of the ones we have in this market... Other than KZLA and maybe KROQ, I really don't see anyone trying to break any new music here...

The KIIS PD should study the aforementioned WNCI and WZPL (2 longtime top 40 powerhouses) to see how to do it right... KIIS has no problem adding a very ordinary sounding Kelly Clarkson song, yet they can't give a rock flavered song which has spent 3 months in the national top 5 ANY spins??? It's broken, someone PLEASE fix it!

I think a lot of the problem in L.A. is that Clear Channel owns both KIIS and KYSR (Star 98.7)... The ONLY current artists they seem to share are Kelly Clarkson and Gwen Stefani... Heck KIIS didn't even play Gorillaz if I remember right... It appears to me that Clear Channel and or the PD's are trying to have very little overlap in the sound of these stations...

[top40dj]

John,

KIIS did play Feel Good Inc and Photograph (and actually drove BOBD and WMUWSE's high numbers). I would love it if KBBY tweaked their songs a little and became an actual top 40 and considering I used to work there when they were AC struggling to be a little "Hot", they've come a long way.

[John77]

top40dj said:

John,

KIIS did play Feel Good Inc and Photograph (and actually drove BOBD and WMUWSE's high numbers).  I would love it if KBBY tweaked their songs a little and became an actual top 40 and considering I used to work there when they were AC struggling to be a little "Hot", they've come a long way.

hey top40dj,

Well, I certainly never heard "Photograph" on KIIS except on the countdowns on the weekends... do they spike it in overnights??? I've checked out their top 30 playlist a lot on Mediabase and I've yet to see it there or hear it on the station. Also, I am on their listener panel, and I've never had a survey from them which included the song... I may have missed "Feel Good Inc" as it took a while for that song to grow on me and KIIS may have been off it before I started liking it... Yes, I do definitely remember the Green Day songs getting played A LOT on KIIS... but they aren't playing them now...

KBBY's been through a lot of changes over the years... and it is nice to see them where they are at now ratings-wise... (I'm doing this on the fly and sleepy, so correct me if I'm wrong)... I remember them in the 80's as a Top 40, then I think they were entirely off the air for a time before re-emerging in the mid-90's as an AC and then Hot AC... I remember when KRUZ dominated them in the rankings for a time... now KRUZ isn't doing so hot and as you know they recently were switched to the 97.5 frequency (the one time home of Top 40 Y-97 (KHTY)) by Clear Channel to make way for a new Hispanic station at the 103.1 frequency...

Honestly, right now I think KBBY is MORE of a Top 40 station in it's current state than KIIS is... Certainly, 30 or so of those 101 or so spins that "Run It' is getting on KIIS could be split amongst Nickelback, Lifehouse and Weezer (of course these songs are now all on the downside so I guess this is kind of moot)... or if they really want to try and be hip, maybe KIIS could play Relient K, Switchfoot, Rob Thomas or James Blunt... Unfortunately, it's been about 7 years since KIIS really tried to break songs... I see that they are already spinning the new Kelly song 38 times in it's first week... I LOVE Kelly, but "Walk Away" is a very "ordinary" song... Will go top 10 strictly on reputation...

[620 Soul Train]

There is obviously a lot to say on the format's state today. I will have to read all of the posts and return with my verdict, if that makes any sense. I voted, anyhow, that i believe that the format IMO is headed for trouble... Back in the fall of 1990, I think Billborad did a test run of two seperate airplay charts, that was shortlived. The charts were Top 40/dance and Top 40/rock as someone mentioned relating to that Rock 40 format. When I was living in South Dakota, being a male 12-18 into much more rhythmic music at the time, KGGG (Hit 100) played close to what Rock 40 had on most of their playlists. At the time I detested anything that was rock leaning and the fact that Hit 100 barely played any song that was rhythmic leaning even if it reached the top 5 on the national charts. I guess I am much different person now than I was back then. I guess top 40 it is what it is, it's simply what the younger female demographics are into. Remember CHR is basiclly a female dominated and targeted format. BTW I strongly believe that Avenged Sevenfold will hit the top 40 with at least that song that they have going on.

[top30countdown]

There was an article in Billboard's Airplay Monitor a few years ago concerning this very question, "Is the CHR/Pop format in trouble?" They pointed out that most CHR/Pop stations lean either rhythmic/urban, or Hot-AC, even if slightly. If those leaning rhythmic/urban continue to drop Hot-AC product in favor of more rhythmic/urban music, and vice versa, then the CHR/Pop format is, indeed, in lots of trouble, as there would be no stations left that play music from both genres. Hopefully there will continue to be enough stations out there that will play a variety of all types of music, so that we can continue to have a CHR/Pop Chart.

[billme]

No need to go into all the points discussed, at least not now. I'll just say any format that has declining number & stations is in trouble. Based upon the comments made on the RMA's, the country format is the only one not in trouble with over "2000 stations & an increase in listeners".

[Marv]

As a refresher, here were the consensus top 10 singles of the 1980's...

Bette Davis Eyes
Every Breath You Take
I Love Rock And Roll
Billie Jean
Centerfold
Flashdance
Call Me
I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)
When Doves Cry
Physical/Waiting For A Girl Like You (really close, depending on which trade you used as YOUR personal preference.

My point about the format in the eighties vs. where it is today is that the variety is just not th there anymore; as previously stated, I had no problem lstening to KIIS for most of the eighties.

HOWEVER, as I've also stated before, when KPWR came along in 1986 and blew a hole in KIIS-FM's audience and swiped LOTS of their teens in the process, KIIS had two choices....remain a mass-appeal CHR/Pop station, or  start loading up on rhythmic product and try and get back those teens who headed to Power 106 in droves and drove Power 106 to #1 in the market in early 1987.

KIIS chose the first option, and the results (and the format) were disastrous. KTWV (Smooth Jazz pioneer 94.7 The Wave) debuted in March of 1987, and took away ANOTHER HUGE chunk of KIIS-FM's adult audience.

Two years later, Scott Shannon left Z-100 in NYC to come to LA to launch 'Pirate Radio', a CURRENT-based, flame-throwin' posterior kickin' rock-and-roll radio station with shimmering production, dealing ANOTHER hit to KIIS, and heritage AOR station KLOS, which incomprehensibly flipped to Alternative in the early nineties, which turned out to be ANOTHER disaster in L A radio.

1989, arguably the worst year for the CHR/Pop format of any year in the eighties, took another hit when country radio exploded, thanks to Garth Brooks.

Simultaneously, the soccer moms who comprised the 25-54 adult demo (and the VERY important 25-54 women cell) started started bailing from the CHR/POP format en DROVES when they started hearing such profanity-laced hard-core rap songs, and even light-hearted songs such as 'Funky Cold Medina'.

1990 was a very good year for the format, thanks to the STUPENDOUS product being put out by females, including great debut singles such as 'Don't Wanna Fall In Love', 'Nothing Compares 2 U', and 'Black Velvet'.

Toss in stupendous career achievement masterpieces (Madonna's 'Vogue', by far the BEST single of her career, IMHO), and lots of state of the art pop signels which could be released to CHR/Pop & AC stations simultaneously (Wilson Phillips, Phil Collins, Roxette, Don Henley, Bruce Horsnby, Enya, Glenn Frey, etc.), and out-and-out instant AC/CHR Pop masterpieces (starting with song writer supreme Diane Warren's EXHILIRATING 'Love Will Lead You Back', which Taylor Dayne took to #1), and the format looked to be in great shape.

But as the nineties rolled along, CHR/Pop stations which copied KIIS-FM's overreaction to Power 106 started losing THEIR adult listeners as well.

When Scott Shannon left LA to launch something called 'Mojo Radio' at WPLJ in NYC, Pirate Radio was #3 in the ratings, with KPWR (6.4) and KIIS-FM (6.1) barely ahead of KQLZ's 5.8 rating.

AC KOST 103.5, with PD Jhani Kaye in charge, replaced KPWR at #1 in early 1992, and later racked up a stupendous EIGHT share in the process, taking away MORE of the adults which KTWV and Country KZLA had swiped from KIIS as a result of their loading up on rap/rhythmic stuff, and sacking longtime LA radio personality Paul Freeman, who was replaced by the late Bruce Vidal as KIIS sought an even YOUNGER audience, since most of their adults had gone elsewhere by the mid-nineties.

My point about that consensus 'Top 10 singles of the eighties' listed above was the fact that NONE of those songs sounded even REMOTELY like any other song on that list, which epitomized the VARIETY that was the foundation of the CHR/Pop format since Bill Drake launched 93/KHJ in 1965 in Los Angeles, and changed Top 40 radio FOREVER in the process.

The variety which had always been the hallmark of the CHR/Pop format (play ALL the hits from ALL genres) was essentially gone from CHR/Pop radio by the late nineties, and the fact that CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic and Urban station share so MUCH music these days is a huge reason why CHR/Pop isn't the powerhouse format that it was in the eighties.

The best songwriters out there are no longer welcome at the format, and there are too many CHR/Pop stations which are copying the local CHR/Rhythmic station by duplicating over 85% of their playlists, for no apparent reason.

Lots of AC, CHR/Pop and AOR artists have continued to record some GREAT misc this decade; the short list woul;d include Don Henley, Roxette, Bruce Springsteen, U2, Elton John, Phil Collins, Sheryl Crow, Huey Lewis & The News, Wilson Phillips, Fleetwood Mac and LOTS of thers.

CHR/Pop RARELY plays any of those artists anymore, and has lost MILLIONS of adults since 1987 in the process.

[Chato]

If CHR/Pop put artists like Elton John ,Huey Lewis or Don Henley back on their playlists they might get back some adult listeners but would in turn lose all of their teenage audience.
Those acts were popular and hot in the 80s but nowadays do not appeal to young people anymore , the only way to get back adult listeners without alienating the younger ones would be abandoning the hardcore urban stuff in favor of some acts that appeal to youths and adults alike IMO. But that would make HotAC look very obsolete.

[agon666]

For everyone who said that pop is becoming an Urban machine, I'd like to point out hte Oct. 21 chart. For the first time since the 90's, four songs that peaked in Alt top 20 were top 10 on Pop:
#4. "Wake Me Up When September Ends," Green Day (Alt peak: #3)
#6. "Beverly Hills," Weezer (#1)
#7. "Photograph," Nickelback (#3)
#8. "Sugar, We're Goin' Down," Fall Out Boy (#3)

In addition, Lifehouse was #9, marking the first time since '01 that there were five bands in the top 10.
Also, on this chart, "Feel Good Inc.," a #1 smash on Alt for the Gorillaz, was #14 on pop, and "Scars" was #20... that #2 on Alt.

All in all, I think pop had a pretty good year. It found a way to incooperate pure pop, Adult rock, Alt, and hip hop. Winter time is always a time when it seems hip hop dominates, so it's just the season. Happy holidays, and here's to the best year pop has had since '01! (And here's to an even better next year!)

[MinusName]

agon666 said:

For everyone who said that pop is becoming an Urban machine, I'd like to point out hte Oct. 21 chart. For the first time since the 90's, four songs that peaked in Alt top 20 were top 10 on Pop:
#4. "Wake Me Up When September Ends," Green Day (Alt peak: #3)
#6. "Beverly Hills," Weezer (#1)
#7. "Photograph," Nickelback (#3)
#8. "Sugar, We're Goin' Down," Fall Out Boy (#3)

In addition, Lifehouse was #9, marking the first time since '01 that there were five bands in the top 10.
Also, on this chart, "Feel Good Inc.," a #1 smash on Alt for the Gorillaz, was #14 on pop, and "Scars" was #20... that #2 on Alt.

All in all, I think pop had a pretty good year. It found a way to incooperate pure pop, Adult rock, Alt, and hip hop. Winter time is always a time when it seems hip hop dominates, so it's just the season. Happy holidays, and here's to the best year pop has had since '01! (And here's to an even better next year!)

I agree that this year was the best year in Pop since 2001, but all of the sudden over the past few weeks Pop seems lower than it has been all year long, I personally blame it on the "Laffy Taffy" song, and looks at #11-29, 2 Pop/Rock songs, 1 Pop song, and 9 Rhythmic/Urban songs with bullets, that's something that I haven't seen in a while and that definitely doesn't look like variety to me, not to mention the fact that Pop just dropped a Pop song by Shakira. The good news is is that the top 10 still looks good - hopefully it will stay that way, the only songs I see deserving of a top 10 finish within the #11-29 area are "Dance, Dance," "Unwritten," and "So Sick." - but that is also my personal opinion, but I think I'm a fair judge when it comes to talent.

[John77]

marv said:

As a refresher, here were the consensus top 10 singles of the 1980's...

Bette Davis Eyes
Every Breath You Take
I Love Rock And Roll
Billie Jean
Centerfold
Flashdance
Call Me
I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)
When Doves Cry
Physical/Waiting For A Girl Like You (really close, depending on which trade you used as YOUR personal preference.

My point about the format in the eighties vs. where it is today is that the variety is just not th there anymore; as previously stated, I had no problem lstening to KIIS for most of the eighties.

HOWEVER, as I've also stated before, when KPWR came along in 1986 and blew a hole in KIIS-FM's audience and swiped LOTS of their teens in the process, KIIS had two choices....remain a mass-appeal CHR/Pop station, or  start loading up on rhythmic product and try and get back those teens who headed to Power 106 in droves and drove Power 106 to #1 in the market in early 1987.

KIIS chose the first option, and the results (and the format) were disastrous. KTWV (Smooth Jazz pioneer 94.7 The Wave) debuted in March of 1987, and took away ANOTHER HUGE chunk of KIIS-FM's adult audience.

Two years later, Scott Shannon left Z-100 in NYC to come to LA to launch 'Pirate Radio', a CURRENT-based, flame-throwin' posterior kickin' rock-and-roll radio station with shimmering production, dealing ANOTHER hit to KIIS, and heritage AOR station KLOS, which incomprehensibly flipped to Alternative in the early nineties, which turned out to be ANOTHER disaster in L A radio.

1989, arguably the worst year for the CHR/Pop format of any year in the eighties, took another hit when country radio exploded, thanks to Garth Brooks.

Simultaneously, the soccer moms who comprised the 25-54 adult demo (and the VERY important 25-54 women cell) started started bailing from the CHR/POP format en DROVES when they started hearing such profanity-laced hard-core rap songs, and even light-hearted songs such as 'Funky Cold Medina'.

1990 was a very good year for the format, thanks to the STUPENDOUS product being put out by females, including great debut singles such as 'Don't Wanna Fall In Love', 'Nothing Compares 2 U', and 'Black Velvet'.

Toss in stupendous career achievement masterpieces (Madonna's 'Vogue', by far the BEST single of her career, IMHO), and lots of state of the art pop signels which could be released to CHR/Pop & AC stations simultaneously (Wilson Phillips, Phil Collins, Roxette, Don Henley, Bruce Horsnby, Enya, Glenn Frey, etc.), and out-and-out instant AC/CHR Pop masterpieces (starting with song writer supreme Diane Warren's EXHILIRATING 'Love Will Lead You Back', which Taylor Dayne took to #1), and the format looked to be in great shape.

But as the nineties rolled along, CHR/Pop stations which copied KIIS-FM's overreaction to Power 106 started losing THEIR adult listeners as well.

When Scott Shannon left LA to launch something called 'Mojo Radio' at WPLJ in NYC, Pirate Radio was #3 in the ratings, with KPWR (6.4) and KIIS-FM (6.1) barely ahead of KQLZ's 5.8 rating.

AC KOST 103.5, with PD Jhani Kaye in charge, replaced KPWR at #1 in early 1992, and later racked up a stupendous EIGHT share in the process, taking away MORE of the adults which KTWV and Country KZLA had swiped from KIIS as a result of their loading up on rap/rhythmic stuff, and sacking longtime LA radio personality Paul Freeman, who was replaced by the late Bruce Vidal as KIIS sought an even YOUNGER audience, since most of their adults had gone elsewhere by the mid-nineties.

My point about that consensus 'Top 10 singles of the eighties' listed above was the fact that NONE of those songs sounded even REMOTELY like any other song on that list, which epitomized the VARIETY that was the foundation of the CHR/Pop format since Bill Drake launched 93/KHJ in 1965 in Los Angeles, and changed Top 40 radio FOREVER in the process.

The variety which had always been the hallmark of the CHR/Pop format (play ALL the hits from ALL genres) was essentially gone from CHR/Pop radio by the late nineties, and the fact that CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic and Urban station share so MUCH music these days is a huge reason why CHR/Pop isn't the powerhouse format that it was in the eighties.

The best songwriters out there are no longer welcome at the format, and there are too many CHR/Pop stations which are copying the local CHR/Rhythmic station by duplicating over 85% of their playlists, for no apparent reason.

Lots of AC, CHR/Pop and AOR artists have continued to record some GREAT misc this decade; the short list woul;d include Don Henley, Roxette, Bruce Springsteen, U2, Elton John, Phil Collins, Sheryl Crow, Huey Lewis & The News, Wilson Phillips, Fleetwood Mac and LOTS of thers.

CHR/Pop RARELY plays any of those artists anymore, and has lost MILLIONS of adults since 1987 in the process.

Another great post, Marv...

A couple of things though... I thought Pirate Radio's ratings were a lot lower when he went back to New York... and didn't they just abruptly change formats and get rid of Shannon too in the process??? I kind of disagree about 1989 being a bad year for CHR/Pop... the great thing about that year and the next is that you heard all kinds of variety on the radio and it was hardly a problem hearing any song in the national Top 50 of the format locally... not at all the case now...

Also, there were some good songs and lots of variety at the CHR/Pop format in the late 90's... 1997 & 1998 in particular were great years for the format... 1999 started to see a slide though and by 2001 it was in it's current state... with a few notable exceptions (2002 when Michelle Branch, Avril Lavigne and Vanessa Carlton gained prominance being the most notable)...

Thanks for the info though, Marv... very informative as usual.

[top40dj]

Wasn't every #1 of the year so far this decade except for Yeah a rock song?

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

I don't get why this topic comes up every few months and it never fails that someone says the format is about to change. I personally think the format has changed a lot since 2003 when Hip-Hop and Urban dominated. The difference? There has been allowance of more variety on the chart and what gets airplay. But people fail to agree with this because hip-hop songs still manage to do very well. Well, you can't expect the format to go back to 1996 when hip-hop got very little chart action on this chart. If you want that, go to Hot AC. That's why Hot AC looks like CHR did a few years ago. Because CHR and Hot AC were similar the way CHR and Rhythmic were recently. I would prefer the ways of a few years ago myself but I do think it's only fair. However, I think the format is in the middle of a transition and unfortunately a new trend is on the way. What kind of trend? Who knows. Maybe it'll be a dance/pop trend a la DHT. However, to say the format is overrun with Rhythmic songs the way it was in 2003 is ignorant to the songs that aren't hip-hop and now you're just looking for a reason to complain.