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Post by 7thfairway on Jan 7, 2006 1:14:02 GMT -5
Billboard and RS are constantly reporting concert sales totals for Rap & Hiphop concerts as steadily declining. That has to be a bad sign for the current urban leaning pop genre.
I'm not an expert on radio like many of the posters in this thread but the decline of live urban music concert ticket sales has to have a significant impact on the genre. I'll leave the analysis of that impact to those who understand and can explain it.
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Houster
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Post by Houster on Jan 8, 2006 0:37:07 GMT -5
I've read part of this great thread. While it appears that KIIS in LA is in the dumper (or at least heading there), Z-100 may be more balanced for the moment because it can't compete with rhythmic WKTU and Hip-Hop Hot 97 and WWPR at the same time, PLUS it may be trying to pick up listeners from the rock genre because of the recent flip of K-Rock to weekday talk Free-FM (thankfully, it looks like Julie Slater and Harris Allen are doing a good job with the music on weekends). At least you guys in LA still have KROQ. Here in New York, a so-called "Rhythm Town", we have NOTHING, except those of us like me who can pick up stations like the Jersey Shore's G-Rock or The Peak. Oh, and New York hasn't had a country music station since 1997.
I don't think the suits who run radio have any interest in ever creating a mass-appeal popular music station anywhere in the country, ever again. And I go back to the glory days of WABC-AM and the WMCA "Good Guys", when AM radio gave you every type of music out there. Rick Sklar, the legendary PD of WABC, is surely rolling in his grave these days.
As far as a dearth of good rock songs, System Of A Down has sold tons of CD's since 2001 with virtually no CHR/Pop airplay, and it totally shocks me that neither Z-100 nor the much more oldies-oriented WPLJ haven't added songs like Coldplay's "Talk" or Death Cab For Cutie's "Soul Meets Body" to their playlists.
Maybe what's "popular" is a chicken-and-egg thing. Do people buy CD's based on what the PD's decide to play on the radio, or do the PD's play music based on what people are buying? In recent years, I'd say its more the former than the latter.
In a very short period of time, the radio situation in New York has changed dramatically, in my view, for the worse: K-Rock went from a cutting edge, alt-rock station, to a mainly 90's classic rock station, to a weekday talk station (yes, I am aware that Howard Stern basically permitted the old K-Rock to be a money-losing rock station). WPLJ went from HOT AC to mainly oldies with a splash of newer Hot AC songs. WCBS-FM went from oldies to a rock-flavored JACK-FM, with ratings in the toilet. AC ratings leader Lite-FM plays more harder Hot AC and even rock songs than they ever have in their history.
Commercial radio may be cutting its own throat because they think people who are going to the internet or satellite radio won't come back to them; the pop stations seem to have little or no interest in serving any listener over the age of 22. So they make their demise a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I can't tell you what the answer is, but all I know is that New York radio is underserving me when I have to listen to a station with an internittent signal in New Jersey to get the music I like.
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ct2874
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Post by ct2874 on Jan 9, 2006 11:49:35 GMT -5
Sorry I'm late to the topic, but I definitely think that CHR is circling right now. I've been listening to 97x and 98 Rock a LOT lately because I've gotten so sick of FLZ, not just for screwing up the songs that they play sometimes (i.e. "Golddigger", that so-called localized verse wasn't necessary, isn't even done by Kanye to my knowledge, and makes females in the Tampa-St.Pete area look bad), but for playing the same thing, the same thing, the same thing. That and having to hear overnight guy's Andy Kovacs gush incessantly over Kelly Clarkson, and playing one of her songs every 30 minutes. Speaking of Miss Clarkson, I noticed that she swept the top TWO songs of '05. Had this ever happened before? Has anyone ever held two spots in the top five of the year before (me thinks that Mariah did it in '93)? That's one indicator that pop is in trouble. Another thing is that some great songs are getting no run whatsoever on CHR. I recall stating that Hoobastank's "Crawling in the Dark" should've been given some run a few years ago. I can't believe that Staind's "Right Here" didn't get a chance at CHR. In my opinion, I thought it would've cracked the top 20. I wish that some pop stations would take a look at "Soul Meets Body" from Death Cab for Cutie. When it comes to pop music, I think that it has become too mindless, too limited, and quite frankly, too lame.....
Either that, or it's just another sign that I'm getting old...
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MinusName
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Post by MinusName on Jan 9, 2006 14:18:26 GMT -5
"Right Here" is still climbing at #34 with a +206 bullet, I think it will still go at least top 30 and I could see this eventually picking up and going top 20.
I agree on "Soul Meets Body," but Pop just needs to go with the flow right now, if labels and what not start pushing a lot of Rock/Hot AC/AC/Country tracks then that might cause a backlash and some stations may even be more proned to playing songs like "Laffy Taffy." As it looks right now, 2006 is looking good for Pop, with a lot of the big artists of the 2005 ending their albums this year, 2006 is looking bright for a lot of new artists and I think a lot of those are going to come from the Rock/Hot AC side and not the Rhythmic/Urban side of the market. I think it is finally becoming clear that Rhythmic/Urban crossovers are becoming stale and unoriginal.
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billme
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Post by billme on Jan 9, 2006 23:50:37 GMT -5
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 10, 2006 2:49:25 GMT -5
Nice find there... I have to remember to re-bookmark fmqb everytime my comp takes a bookmark dump... This paragraph pretty much states what we all know... "More specifically, the latest study explains that a 15 percent decrease in terrestrial radio use by 12-24 year olds was reported for Q3 2005 as compared to Q3 2004. By Q4 2005, use had increased by two quarter hours per week per person resulting in only a 4 percent increase when compared with Q4 2004. Meanwhile, radio listening by adults 25-49 has risen from 65 quarter hours a week in Q4 2004 to 67 in Q4 2005." Yeah, I'll continue to aim my CHR/Pop programming at the dwindling 12-24 market and watch my ratings fall... sounds like a GREAT plan to me!
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seanblain
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Post by seanblain on Jan 10, 2006 3:42:18 GMT -5
Speaking of Miss Clarkson, I noticed that she swept the top TWO songs of '05. Had this ever happened before? Has anyone ever held two spots in the top five of the year before (me thinks that Mariah did it in '93)? That's one indicator that pop is in trouble. I don't think that means Pop radio is in trouble, it just means the Kelly put out 2 huge hits that stayed around forever.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 10, 2006 4:36:25 GMT -5
^^ Therein lies the problem... when songs have excessively long runs on the charts, that either means one of two things or both: either there is an absence of quality product out there, which is causing the songs to have a longer life or it's the fact that the format has become so narrow that it is choosing not to play certain kinds of music...
Right now, I think there is plenty of quality music out there... the problem is that CHR/Pop is ignoring way too much of it.. Anna Nalick, Bon Jovi and the Goo Goo Dolls are probably the best examples I can give right now, but there are a ton more... If these artists were given a shot at the format, Kelly's songs (along with Mariah's, Gwen's, etc) wouldn't have nearly the chart life that they are having at the moment...
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Chato
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Post by Chato on Jan 10, 2006 10:09:45 GMT -5
John , the Goo Goo Dolls go for adds in a couple of weeks , finally . I think this will make the top 40 . And I agree , Anna Nalick among other HAC artists should be given some more airtime instead of playing the same old songs by Mariah , Kelly and Gwen over and over.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 11, 2006 3:41:33 GMT -5
^^^ It be about time the Goo's go for adds... hopefully it won't start sliding before then... it's good to see a couple of good songs (Natasha Bedingfield and James Blunt) have some success... I also hope that CHR/Pop gives Rob Thomas' latest the much deserved push... Anna Nalick's last song was given a good promo start by her label, but they left her song "in the rough" so to speak after the initial push... with a continued effort they could have gotten it at least Top 40...
It's funny you being up Kelly, Mariah and Gwen as they all have new songs coming out... and only one of them even sort of sounds like a hit (Kelly's - which I think is worthy of top 20 but it will go top 10 b/c it's Kelly)... the other 2... they are VERY difficult to listen to... but they will be hits b/c they are by Gwen Stefani and Mariah Carey... the format has ALWAYS been strongest when it's a SONG driven format, rather than ARTIST driven as it is now... it's as stale and boring as AOR got before it's demise!
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MinusName
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Post by MinusName on Jan 11, 2006 9:33:42 GMT -5
Anna Nalick -- Pop Radio >:( "In The Rough" is no different from Natalie Imbruglia's "Torn" imo and that was a #1 smash and one of the biggest songs of the 90's. I understand that back then Hot AC was the in-thing, but this still deserves top 40, instead it only came close to 70, and right now it is at 85 with a +10 bullet. "Breathe" also should've went at least top 40. Artists like Anna Nalick, Goo Goo Dolls, and James Blunt are the ideal artists to get more adults listening to the format again, why don't they just play KidzBop on Pop, they might as well since everyone is saying how it caters to the 6-17 group.
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 12, 2006 1:33:23 GMT -5
CHR/Pop will not rise again as a format until it becomes a MASS-APPPEAL format again, where SONGWRITERS drive and dominate the format, and not the handful of producers who have a stranglehold on the format, and have had on the format for years.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 12, 2006 2:53:51 GMT -5
CHR/Pop will not rise again as a format until it becomes a MASS-APPPEAL format again, where SONGWRITERS drive and dominate the format, and not the handful of producers who have a stranglehold on the format, and have had on the format for years. Yup... and for all intents and purposes right now, it's pretty much a "niche" format... as a result, I listen to Country and Hot AC stations more today than probably at any time ever in my life...
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MinusName
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Post by MinusName on Jan 12, 2006 18:03:55 GMT -5
CHR/Pop will not rise again as a format until it becomes a MASS-APPPEAL format again, where SONGWRITERS drive and dominate the format, and not the handful of producers who have a stranglehold on the format, and have had on the format for years. Yup... and for all intents and purposes right now, it's pretty much a "niche" format... as a result, I listen to Country and Hot AC stations more today than probably at any time ever in my life... I am the same way, I don't listen to Country too much, but there have been times when there was seriously nothing else on out of about 10 other stations. Generally Hot AC is the only station that I can listen to without having to change the station after every other song, that's why I've stopped listening to Pop, they are completely unpredictable and play some horrible crap that should stay at the rhythmic/urban format.
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Post by themakshack on Jan 13, 2006 10:38:01 GMT -5
Just for yout information, here are selected Fall 2005 ratings...
WHTZ (New York) 4.2 -> 4.4 KIIS (Los Angeles) 4.4 --> 4.3 WKSC (Chicago) 3.0 --> 2.5 WIOQ (Philadelphia) 3.4 --> 3.6 WKQI (Detroit) 4.8 --> 5.1 KHTS (San Diego) 3.9 --> 3.7
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 14, 2006 2:03:30 GMT -5
^^ Overall, that's a downhill trend...
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smack
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Post by smack on Jan 14, 2006 11:09:00 GMT -5
Z104 is probably my favorite station in the state, the chr/pop from Green bay is 2nd. Both play a very good variety. Get this though. I emailed the PD at 103.7 in milwaukee one time a few years ago. Told him that Z104 was so much better. Better music choice, less repeats, less rap, etc. He just told me, they can do that in a small college town. EXCUSE ME.. 225,000 people is NOT a small college town! Besides, the metro area is pushing 400,000, and I can hear it from the west side of the Milwaukee metro area. As someone who's old enough (53) to remember when KIIS-FM was a true MASS-APPEAL CHR/Pop station (and hit a stupendous 10.0 rating in the summer of 1984), here are some of my opinions regarding why CHR/Pop is not doing nearly as well as it was in the eighties or seventies, or sixties. The eighties were a STUPENDOUS decade for the format thanks to KIIS, WNCI (Columbus OH. for my money the #1 CHR/Pop station in America today, thanks to it's 10.0 rating in America's 12th largest city), WZPL in Indianapolis, small market powerhouses such as Z-104 (WZEE Madison, Wisc.) and lots of others. The fact that on any of those stations you could hear EVERY genre of music out there within a one-hour block was what made it impossible for you to turn the dial; the 'power singles' were rarely played more than 6 times a day, and the station had a MUCH larger listening audience because of the much wider variety of music on CHR/Pop stations. Even in a year such as 1989, where we had to put up with such schlock as NKOTB, Milli Vanilli, Paula Abdul and other lightweights, the format was EXCEPTIONALLY well-balanced and still very popular, thanks to strong CDs such as Don Henley's 'The End Of The Innocence, state-of the-art REAL CHR/Pop music (such as an extraordinary singer like Marie Frederikksson of ROXETTE), AOR format staples such as Genesis, Def Leppard, Guns n'Roses, Bruce Sprinsgteen, Bryan Adams, Bon Jovi and LOTS of others, AC/Smooth Jazz stars such as Phil Collins, Enya, Bruce Hornsby and the Range and others and state-of-the-art rhythmic/rap masterpieces, with Bobby Brown's 'My Prerogative' still serving as the gold standard SIXTEEN+ years later. The eighties were also the epitome of what CHR/Pop was designed to be when Bill Drake re-invented the format here in Los Angeles in 1965 at 93/KHJ; it was designed to be a SONG (or songwriter) driven format, as opposed to being a PRODUCER-driven format as has been the case for several years, excluding the explosion of Hot AC/.Alternative music which dominated R&R's top 10 singles of 1997--Jewel, The Wallflowers, etc. The eighties were marked by some of the best songwriters who've ever existed, including Stevie Wonder, Elton John, Paul McCartney, Don Henley, Michael Jackson, Sting/The Police, Phil Collins/Genesis, and TONS of others; most of today's best songwriters are VERY hard to find at CHR/Pop radio these days. First of all, if a mass-appeal CHR/Pop station is going to return to LA, KIIS will have to be the station to do so, and to return to where it was in the eighties; a MASS--APPEAL radio station which played ALL genres of music. As several of you have already stated, the fact that KIIS-FM (and LOTS of other 'alleged' CHR/Pop stations out there play over 90% rhythmic/rap.urban stuff is insane; there is NO reason for the year-end CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic and Urban charts (as well as the weekly ones) to look so much alike!!!!!! The fact that KIIS-FM is #1 in LA MIGHT be a reason to celebrate the format, but the fact remains that Power 106 and KIIS have both been LOSING listeners over the course of the past 12 months, but that Power 106 has been losing listeners FASTER than KIIS; that 4.4 rating for KIIS (which also include simulcast sister KVVS in Palmdale) is unquestionably the worst rating for any #1 radio station in any major market, especially one as closely watched as Los Angeles. The reason that songs such as 'Over And Over' were averaging NINETY-THREE+ SPSPW (Spins Per Station Per Week) is that the research and consultants who have smothered all of the formats out there have determined that CHR/Pop's primary audience (12-24) really wants to hear the hits played a LOT, owing to the very fickle nature of its young and easily bored audience, according to lots of articles I've read in R&R & BB over the years. NO radio station aimed at the ultra-important adults 25-54 listening block has to play their 'power singles' more than 6 or 7 times per day. This could go MUCH longer, but the format won't reclaim it's glory days of the eighties until it returns to its roots as a MASS-APPEAL format, and KIIS-FM will have to lead the way. Ryan Seacrest MUST be complimented for having SOLID numbers in the 25-54 age group in morning drive, as well as in overall audience size. Two books ago he beat Howard Stern, KROQ's Kevin and Bean and Power 106's Big Boy in total audience, and he was #4 in morning drive in the 25-54 demo. While his 25-54 numbers are no match for those of the stupendous Kidd Kraddick of Dallas's KHKS (who's unquestionably the #1 morning radio personality in America, succeeding Rick Dees), the fact that Dees was tied for SEVENTH in morning drive among all listeners when Clear Channel sacked him), whereas Seacrest is in the top 5 today, means that Seacrest has PLENTY to be proud of, even if the format doesn't, according to myself and numerous others on this board.
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smack
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Post by smack on Jan 14, 2006 11:11:47 GMT -5
Don't make me point out....60 year old Cher topped the chart back in what...99? If CHR/Pop put artists like Elton John ,Huey Lewis or Don Henley back on their playlists they might get back some adult listeners but would in turn lose all of their teenage audience. Those acts were popular and hot in the 80s but nowadays do not appeal to young people anymore , the only way to get back adult listeners without alienating the younger ones would be abandoning the hardcore urban stuff in favor of some acts that appeal to youths and adults alike IMO. But that would make HotAC look very obsolete.
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smack
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Post by smack on Jan 14, 2006 11:23:03 GMT -5
I hate to have too many posts in a row....but I decided on giving up rap/chr/pop music for a new years resolution...going on my 14th day, and not missing it at all.
I'm sick of hearing some street punk say f*** this b**** and that's the whole basis of the song. Or shoot this, f*** that, etc.
I've turned to the alt rock format as my primary radio listening now....overall, much more wholesum music. I will take Green Day or Weezer over 50 cents, or anyone else that names themselves slim, some sort of coin or food. Enuf said. Format is really in trouble IMHO
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Chato
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Post by Chato on Jan 14, 2006 13:43:40 GMT -5
Nice to see that Z100's ratings have gone up since i think this station's on a roll right now . They've been early supporters of so many future non-urban hits , DHT among others . Other stations often follow Z100 and recently they've added many potential future HAC crossovers , Staind , James Blunt , Teddy Geiger , which is very unusual for such a huge station . I hope this trend continues and the aforementioned songs become hits and Z100's ratings increase even further.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 14, 2006 14:00:08 GMT -5
^^^ Z100 is a good station... one of the few large market stations that actually may go early on non-urban stuff.... Hopefully other stations will follow their lead.
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 16, 2006 1:26:39 GMT -5
It would be nice if a lot more CHR/Pop stations had a playlist such as WNCI or Z100 in NYC, but that doesn't appear to be the case as long as these media conglomerates continue to smother all of their radio stations in ALL formats with an overreliance on research, yet always willing to fire the PD if the station tanks based on orders which he did NOT initiate.
The Hot AC format wouldn't suffer as much either if those suits at CC and CBS (formerly Infinity) weren't so obssessed with research and boosting their stock prices, as opposed to servicing their listening audience with listenable product.
The Hot AC format will never be an 'obsolete' format under any circumstances; in MANY markets it has become THE mass-appeal format that the local CHR/Pop station no longer is, and the reason is that CHR/Pop stations are chasing the same 12-24 year old audience which are the #1 target of CHR/Rhythmic powerhouses such as KPWR amd WQHT, and other Emmis-owned CHR/Rhythmic stations.
Hot AC would also sound MUCH better if it weren't for the DEFENSIVE programming which has enveloped the industry as a result of the conglomerates who own 7 or 8 stations in a single market and can't understand why all of their stations have had VERY flat ratings for YEARS, with Z100 (NYC) having suffered relatively flat ratings for almost NINE years!!!!!!
KIIS-FM ran through several PDs in a very short period of time in an effort to stop their slide in the ratings, and their VP/GM bailed out about a year ago because CCs corporate dweebs in San Antonio had handcuffed him by demanding that he follow their edicts as opposed to trying to build the radio station HIS way.
There is simply TOO much DEFENSIVE programming going on in radio today, which is another HUGE problem which currently plagues SEVERAL formats, and not just CHR/Pop.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 16, 2006 1:58:50 GMT -5
^^ Indeed... and I just eMailed Hot AC Star 98.7 here in L.A. to complain about how horrible their station sounds at the moment.... they FINALLY added James Blunt this week... 3-4 months after the other Hot AC's I listen to did!!!
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 19, 2006 2:00:17 GMT -5
Another couple of items which have NOT been good for the format are a lack of stunning duets (the eighties were LOADED with them!!!) and a very mediocre crop of vocalists of both sexes, and especially females.
Nevertheless the format isn't going away anytime soon in spite of those so-so ratings from those major markets listed above.
CC and CBS have unquestionably decided to have each station in their various market clusters target a single demographic, and usually a very narrow one, with almost non-existent advertising budgets.
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Jan 25, 2006 11:49:35 GMT -5
Does anybody know of any CHR/Pop stations (besides WNCI & WZEE) that are STILL mass-appeal CHR/Pop stations AND doing very well ratings wise?
As I've stated before KPWR absolutely swiped a HUGE percentage of KIIS's teens in 1987, and KIIS chose to strat loading up on rhythmic music to try and get those teens back, and blowing of LOTS of adult listeners in the process.
Virtually every CHR/Pop station which copied KIIS's reaction (or overreaction) to KPWR wound up suffering similar plunges in their ratings, and nobody seems to know why those stations whose ratings tanked like KIIS's did never bothered to reverse field and return to its mass-appeal roots.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 26, 2006 2:39:44 GMT -5
^^ Perhaps searching those out might be a weekend project for me...
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Slinky
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Post by Slinky on Jan 26, 2006 12:04:15 GMT -5
Does anybody know of any CHR/Pop stations (besides WNCI & WZEE) that are STILL mass-appeal CHR/Pop stations AND doing very well ratings wise? If by mass appeal, you mean still trying to appeal to adults, then WSTW/Wilmington and WPST/Trenton would fit the profile. Both are #1 in their respective markets.
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soundwave
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Post by soundwave on Jan 27, 2006 12:45:56 GMT -5
Urban is what is mostly what teenagers listen to these days. It is definitely the most popular genre for gradeschoolers and highschoolers. I'm not saying Nickelback and Greenday aren't awesome or popular, but it's hard to play "Photograph" after "Laffy Taffy". LOL.
I think as such, stations have to lean one way or the other for a playlist that isn't all crazy and schitzo (though the popularity of JackFM would seem otherwise).
It is a little worrying that Pop/CHR stations aren't playing a lot of the music that is selling incredibly well. That means there is a disconnect between what people actually want and what they are being given.
My 2 cents.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Jan 27, 2006 23:33:40 GMT -5
^^^ CHR historically has done the best when the format has played music from all genres and caters to all demos 12+... right now, they're very focused a making the 6-12 and 6-18 demos happy and ignoring the rest of their listeners...
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Catboy
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Post by Catboy on Jan 27, 2006 23:49:03 GMT -5
^^^ CHR historically has done the best when the format has played music from all genres and caters to all demos 12+... right now, they're very focused a making the 6-12 and 6-18 demos happy and ignoring the rest of their listeners... maybe that's why pop music isn't relevant today like it used to be. It seems very difficult that any of the current hits could be considered classics in the future. They are totally forgettable.
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